Self-Governance in an Unreasonable Age

Part III: The Hubris of the Ignorant

I have been struggling the past few days with what the primary subject should be for Part III of this series. Every time I settle on one basic idea, three or four others pop up, either as stand-alone pieces, or as corollaries to other ideas. The threats to self-governance in this decrepit age are so many and varied that it is nearly impossible to settle on just one.

Fortunately, I was rescued from my confusion by an essay over at The Federalist that presents an example of an over-arching principle that is so integral to self-governance that it demands further discussion. The author, Benjamin Dierker, was discussing (as so many are these past weeks) the Second Amendment. He very cogently writes,

 “In a properly functioning America like the Founders envisioned, a repeal of the Second Amendment would be virtually meaningless. The right existed already; the Constitution merely secures it. Unfortunately, our society has loosened its grasp on natural rights philosophy and devolved into dependency on government-sanctioned rules.”

I would take this very accurate statement a step further. The entire Constitution could disappear tomorrow without diminishing or negating the natural rights written in the hearts and minds of free men. Despite constant and pervasive gaslighting by the left, a free man knows that his natural rights were not created by putting pen to parchment. They were merely codified in the legal framework of the Founding documents. The Constitution is no magical document and the natural rights of men are not subject to the whims of government. Unfortunately, in modern day America, the very concept of natural rights is under assault from below by ignorant, and gullible masses whose twins gods of safety and comfort dictate their politics, and from above by elitist grifters, political sociopaths and various other control freaks that populate the governments and bureaucracies that litter this land. The impact of this assault on liberty should not be ignored or underestimated.

Self-governance cannot long survive in an environment where a significant portion of the population is either ignorant of, or actively hostile to, the philosophy of natural rights. Nor can it prosper when those in power come to believe that they are the arbiters, rather than custodians, of what rights properly belong to the people. The Founders did not create “inalienable rights.” They merely acknowledged them.

In Part II I referred to the right to be left alone as a right pre-existing any attempt at legal codification. All natural rights fall into this category of pre-existence. For those who believe in God, natural rights are bestowed on mortal men, not for anything they have done, but simply because they are. Men exist as created beings with the free will to make their own choices, order their own affairs, and suffer their own consequences. They are endowed with natural rights in order to have the tools necessary to accomplish the purpose for which they were created. I suggest that free men who believe they are the children of a Creator God find it easier to hold firmly to the notion that they possess natural rights inborn and inherent to their nature as free beings.

For those who do not believe, that innate grasp of natural rights philosophy, while not non-existent, is arguably more tenuous and therefore more subject to the corrosive effects of leftist ideologies. Those who see themselves as only the product of natural selection must necessarily (if they are intellectually honest) view themselves as no better and no worse than the myriad of creatures that populate the planet. The inherent danger in this viewpoint is that those who truly espouse it are, by virtue of that belief, opening the door to their own commodification by those political forces seeking to dominate and control every aspect of human existence. If the spark of the Divine does not exist in human beings, then to claim the possession of natural rights as the basis of personal liberty and rational self-governance is a lunatic idea akin to claiming that cattle and pigs, trees and flowers, mollusks and termites are also heirs to those same rights.

I am not saying that atheists and agnostics have no appreciation of, or belief in the concept of natural rights. However, I am saying that those who do not believe are much easier prey for the purveyors of the soul-destroying philosophical flatulence of the left. That there is debate about the specific religious affiliations and spiritual inclinations of the Founders does not negate the fact that they believed that the citizens of the nation they were creating were naturally bequeathed the rights commensurate with a free, self-governing people, not by governments, but by a power beyond the reach or influence of men. Deist, Christian, or atheist, the Founders believed that the natural rights of men exist beyond the reach of government and to believe anything less is to take the first irrevocable step on the road to tyranny and enslavement.

Governing one’s self requires fully embracing the tools by which that governance is possible. Only human beings capable of governing their own passions can reasonably be expected to possess the capabilities necessary to form a polity capable of securing and maintaining ordered liberty. Natural rights are the indispensable tools necessary to the building of free, self-governing societies. If we devolve (as I believe we are rapidly doing) into a fragmented society with no sense of itself as the inheritors of natural rights, then we become nothing more than fodder for demagogues and politicians that tell us that our rights are not something we possess by virtue of our humanity. If they are not naturally occurring, our rights become little more than largesse doled out by our elected representatives, subject at all times to their whims and predilections. Bureaucrats can regulate them out of existence or the armed minions of a tyrannical government may forcibly truncate them. If all we have are government-sanctioned rights, then they are subject to change without notice, or outright elimination without recourse.

Subscribers to that mode of thought are not people with a natural right to own property. They are property. If we no longer possess the natural right to defend ourselves, then we are candidates for cattle cars and labor camps. If we no longer possess the natural right to speak as we wish or listen to those we wish to hear, then we are deaf and dumb sheep to be herded, penned, and slaughtered at the discretion of our authoritarian shepherds. The erosion of natural rights philosophy in the public mind and in civic discourse is deadly to personal liberty and public harmony. Bereft of natural law and the rights that flow from it, civil society devolves into a Hobbesian swamp of violence, entitlement, and authoritarian control. I suggest that we are seeing this descent into tyranny in real time. The normalization of deviancy rots the fiber of the nation and denies us the moral high ground. Emotional grievance and governance hold sway in the public square. The criminalization of thought and speech muzzles honest debate. All these things plus the incessant bawling, bullying, and whining of the brainless left are the festering political and social pustules heralding the onset of the terminal cancer of despotism. Whether it succumbs to Orwellian thuggery, or the distracted slavery of Huxley, liberty cannot survive in the absence of widespread belief in the natural rights of free men.

The population of this nation is woefully ignorant of, not only its own history, but of the basic philosophical underpinnings of the civilization of which they are nominally a part. If one of my fellow citizens cannot tell me whom we fought in the Revolutionary War, I hold out little hope that he can render a coherent explanation of natural rights. Such a person is not a citizen of a self-governing society; he is merely residing within a political framework provided for him by free men. He is a helot who lives in the illusion of freedom. All the rights and privileges he enjoys are the hand-me-downs of better men. How can such people be expected to understand, let alone properly maintain, the mechanisms necessary to protect rights that exist outside the boundaries of their own passions and instincts. Far too many in this nation exist at only that level. The evidence for this is visible in the foul-mouthed immaturity of the David Hoggs of the world, the hypocritical posturing of politicians, and the incoherent babblings and cacophonous noise constantly served up by academia, media, and government. To all those who would trample the natural rights of free men in a bovine stampede toward safety, comfort, and distraction, I would simply say that just because you want it, does not mean you get to have it, especially at the expense of my liberty or the liberty of others.

My question are these: Why should the decent, liberty-loving, law-abiding citizens of an ostensibly free country suffer the diminution and restriction of their rights because of the actions of criminals, the desires of the ignorant, or the blathering of children? Why should they suffer punishments that should rightly fall upon those who have severed the tethers of natural rights, which bind them to something greater than themselves?

The questions are, of course, rhetorical. If a portion of a given population, for whatever reason, cannot handle the responsibilities of living in a free society, then said population is not entitled to the same freedoms as that portion of the population that can. It has been said that Democracy is not a suicide pact. Neither is it a mechanism for the indiscriminant punishment of those who understand the sources of human freedom and those who do not. It is crucial to remember that this nation was never meant to be a democracy. It was founded as a Constitutional Republic rooted in the idea of majority rule with respect for the rights and aspirations of the minority. It was not founded to allow for the tyranny of the minority with disdain and contempt for the rights and aspirations of the majority.

Willingly embrace slavery if you will, but leave me and mine out of it. As a free man, I have no desire to hinder any of my fellow citizens should they choose the road to tyranny, but I do not wish to be dragged along with them. Likewise, if I choose the freedom road, with all the risks and rewards that emanate from that choice, I will not have hands laid upon me to drag me back into the servitude that others have chosen for themselves.

The chasm that divides what remains of the free citizenry of the nation from a howling rabble of soon-to-be slaves will soon become (if it is not already) unbridgeable by the diminishing number of men of good will available to span it. I believe that a rebirth of liberty is possible in this country, but not until those who believe in natural rights as the wellspring of free self-governance establish themselves in a redoubt unassailable by the forces of tyranny now ascendant. Physical separation may be the only possible solution. Whether it can be accomplished short of another civil war is debatable.

Both the free and the unfree should remember there is one other right that a people may exercise when any pact, which they voluntarily entered into, becomes anathema to their continued existence as a free nation. The right to be left alone has its collective corollary in the right of secession. The former applies to the individual. The latter applies to the society to which he belongs. The victors in Lincoln’s War did not negate that pre-existing right. They only compelled the obedience of the unwilling.

My hope is that a second attempt to exercise that right can avoid the bloodshed that followed the first, though my belief is that liberty is rarely birthed in peace, and midwifing freedom is usually a bloody business.

Self-Governance in an Unreasonable Age (Part One)

Self-Governance in an Unreasonable Age (Part Two)

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102 Comments
TS
TS
April 2, 2018 8:57 pm

OUT frickin’ STANDING!
I, too, would hope that the bloodshed could be avoid. I don’t believe it for one moment, but it is preferable.
Otherwise, what can I say? Really, really well done.

God
God
  TS
April 3, 2018 3:55 pm

http://www.woodpilereport.com

Proof There It Is

comment image

AC
AC
April 2, 2018 9:21 pm

The Bill of Rights is a set of restrictions on government power – which are ignored by the government at its pleasure. The Second Amendment specifically forbids government legislative restrictions on arms. Literally every gun control law is prima facie unconstitutional. Yet these laws are gleefully upheld by the corrupt judiciary, and just as gleefully enforced by the government’s equally corrupt constabulary mercenaries – every individual in both having sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. To believe that every other item in the Bill of Rights won’t be treated similarly, whenever the govenrnment finds it convenient to do so, is just wishful thinking.

These obviously aren’t inalienable rights, these aren’t rights granted by a higher power. These are rights carved out, and retained, only by the utilization of naked violence.

To only way to retain our rights, is for the government to be justifiably afraid to infringe on them. This is only possible with a populace that is capable of comprehending and acting on this.

https://aryanskynet.wordpress.com/2018/03/30/what-my-jury-duty-experience-tells-me-about-the-future-of-justice-in-america/

We do not currently have such a population. I do not believe this is merely an accident of history. This must change, if we desire anything but slavery for our posterity. America, without a population comprised nearly entirely of white Americans, will not be America in anything but name.

CoWanderer
CoWanderer
  AC
April 3, 2018 4:24 pm

Excellent comment. I’ll have to read your aryanskynet link, but in my mind, the best person out there arguing for and informing us as to the founder’s chosen instrument to ensure governmental ‘compliance’ is Edwin Vieira Jr. http://www.edwinvieira.com/index.html Read any of his fine articles or books on the militia. I for one think that a revived militia coupled with (revived) honest money (decentralized and creation of it coupled to real labor and resouce creation) are the only 2 sane choices we have for a return to the framer’s republic.

pyrrhus
pyrrhus
  AC
April 4, 2018 9:31 am

In summary,those who are not Americans or do not believe in inalienable rights need to leave….

Dub
Dub
  AC
April 4, 2018 3:24 pm

Hardly consistent themes. For if a people dictates it is superior than others, it is only natural that they be subjected to the same domination they profess to claim for themselves.

Start your own nation. You are completely free to do so. Call it America for that matter. Nobody is stopping you AC.

Completely agree with 5e concept of this series. Liberty is for all people. Not just those who claim it for themselves.

Jay
Jay
  AC
April 12, 2018 6:40 am

All Quinn leaves out is GOD. If He is not the provider of rights all this other baloney means nothing. And our departure from God is the reason we are where we are, Liberty is nothing without gratitude for the provider of rights.

David Allen
David Allen
April 2, 2018 9:23 pm

An excellent piece. Kudos. Nothing to disagree with in either the sentiment, or the observations regarding the state of affairs. I think however that relying on religion as a basis for ‘natural rights’ is a mistake. If a person is religious for other reasons, then it makes sense for them to look to those religious beliefs when seeking support for freedom and liberty. To embrace a religious explanation for ‘natural rights’ out of desperation to find support , is another matter. I do not think any superstitious notion of God is necessary to defend ‘natural rights’. They are ‘natural rights’ because they are consistent with our nature as human beings. This has nothing to do with religion.

Jake
Jake
  David Allen
April 2, 2018 9:59 pm

You appear to have self identified as one who consider themselves no more than the equal of “cattle and pigs, trees and flowers, mollusks and termites.”

David Allen
David Allen
  xrugger
April 2, 2018 10:22 pm

I think he was referring to me and not to you.

Jake
Jake
  David Allen
April 3, 2018 1:58 pm

Correct.

Jake
Jake
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 1:59 pm

I was referring to David Allen.

David Allen
David Allen
  Jake
April 2, 2018 10:24 pm

Well, I suppose that’s one way of viewing it. I consider human beings the highest form of existence known in a natural hierarchy. I don’t need a notion of God to realize that.

Unaccountable
Unaccountable
  David Allen
April 2, 2018 11:04 pm

ends unto themselves

CoWanderer
CoWanderer
  David Allen
April 3, 2018 4:37 pm

Sorry David, I have to disagree.
Without God, on what are the merits of your opinion as to the “highest form of existance known in a natural hierarchy” based on? Natural selection? Natural law still requires a law giver and designer of the hierarchy for it to have ranked value. If you believe that the most complex and advanced form of ‘hierarchy’ came as an accident of evolutionary choices based on surivial of the fittest, then I think that law is similarly arbitrary and accidental. Just claiming the presence of a hierarchy I think betrays your underlying assumption and makes a case for the designer/creator/law giver.

David Allen
David Allen
  CoWanderer
April 3, 2018 6:10 pm

No need to be sorry, civil discussion is the best way to improve our thinking and refine the ideas we hold. I’m sure you know as well as I, that no matter who might present the best argument for the foundation of natural rights, it will be limited in it’s effect, by the extent to which others can be persuaded to accept it. To say that ‘natural law’ (rights) requires a ‘lawgiver’ is to make an assertion. You might just as well have asserted that the existence of matter requires a creator. While it might sound reasonable, there is no logical or rational validity to such assertions. I base my thinking upon that which is easily observable, requires no intermediaries (prophets, messengers of God, etc.)for it’s realization and is independent of anything that cannot be verified. I certainly do not consider my viewpoint invulnerable to criticism or in any sense a complete system of understanding. However, as I look about me, I see a hierarchy of life forms, the human species being the highest of which I am aware. The distinguishing characteristic of the human species, that which has allowed us, and only us, to harness nature, create technologies, give back to the planet, rather than only taking, as most other species do, is our ability to reason. Our strength, speed, eyesight, hearing, sense of smell, etc. are inferior to that of other species. Without our evolved intelligence, and ability to reason, we would probably be extinct. This use of our reason to survive and thrive, is natural to us as a species. Anything which impedes our ability to use our reason for survival or flourishing is unnatural. This seems rather self evident to me. By extension the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is the right to be allowed to live and pursue our best interests as we see fit, while allowing others to do the same, and for the same reason.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  David Allen
April 4, 2018 4:51 am

I think it is a very sick thing to think that humans are the “highest form of existence”. It is much more healthy to just be secure that putting the interest of ones own species first, is quite natural.

David Allen
David Allen
  Anonymous
April 4, 2018 1:06 pm

Well, you’re certainly entitled to consider anything with which you disagree ‘sick’, and what you believe ‘healthy’. I’m assuming what you suggest is some sort of moral posture and not professional psychological advice. However, by every scientific measurement and common sense observation, we are the highest form of existence in the ‘known’ hierarchy. Putting one’s species, tribe, and self above others is natural, but doesn’t alter the fact that we are superior to every other species known to us. If you consider yourself equal with a toad, I have no reason to try and convince you otherwise.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  David Allen
April 4, 2018 10:35 am

It absolutely does, and to miss this point is everything. As much as lefties want to make it so belies the belief that these rights are of men. And if they are of men they are subject to withdrawal as men see fit. For it to be your right as given by men it would have to be agreed upon wholly by men and accepted by all/ kinda like the left is attempting to do by writing the rules of man and behaviour according to their leftist prism. Never going to happen except by force ……. our culture is wholly against a higher power other than man and like it or not we can see a steady descent into out troubled present.

SmallerGovNow
SmallerGovNow
  David Allen
April 3, 2018 8:01 am

Don’t confuse God with religion… Chip

David Allen
David Allen
  SmallerGovNow
April 3, 2018 6:11 pm

I understand. I should have chosen my words more carefully to avoid confusion.

starfcker
starfcker
April 2, 2018 9:52 pm

X, this is a terrific piece of writing, and there’s a lot to chew on. I’m going to have to read it a few times before I can comment in any sort of intelligent way. I do want to bring up one thing though, that I got from Llpoh a few years ago, I think the subject was Israel. He said, right now that land belongs to Israelis, and it will as long as they can keep it. His point was, nothing is permanent, nothing is granted unless you can defend it. That changed the way I look at rights, at property, and other things. If you can’t defend it, it’s not yours. I will get back to you. Great job

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 2, 2018 9:53 pm

The men who created this country were educated man…educated in history and philosophy. They spoke to educated men like themselves. There was enough of them to throw off the yoke of tyranny. And so the rest of the population who were ignorant of higher education but were nevertheless educated in the crafts built this nation.

Crafty men have taken over the rule of this country and over a period of time have created an artificial environment where they are systematically drawing the wealth to themselves.

When all is finally lost it will then happen that the people will rise up and throw off their masters. We are not there yet. When the professional class falls into pauperism due to a crashing economy then we will see the beginning of the end for those that rule us by administrative law.

Uncola3
Uncola3
April 2, 2018 10:28 pm

NOTE: This is the third time I’ve tried to post this comment to no avail. If this one takes and the other two reappear later and clutter the thread please accept my apologies in advance:

———

The First Amendment is under attack by weaponized consensus of contrived orthodoxies

The Second Amendment, as you have written above, is most currently threatened by ignorance, irresponsibility, and the blackmailing of victimized children.

And the Fourth Amendment is daily assaulted via technological fuckery.

The last one could be good topic for your series.

The author Viktor Frankl once wrote that the Statue of the Liberty on the east coast of the U.S. should have been balanced by a Statue of Responsibility on the west coast. Perhaps that would have served as a reminder for American’s to have remained diligent enough to have “kept our republic” (in accordance to Benjamin Franklin’s warning).

But when you have half of a nation acknowledging natural rights as derived from outside of themselves, and the another half who believe they are ends unto themselves, could the result have been any different than where we are now?

Morality vs. immorality.

Law vs. Tyranny.

Freedom or slavery.

A Constitutional Republic vs. mob rule.

We have reached the fork in the road. Trends are transitions.

Rocky Raccoon
Rocky Raccoon
April 2, 2018 10:57 pm

Outstanding essay xrugger!

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
April 2, 2018 11:30 pm

X, this is truly getting on to becoming a magnum opus. Your writing is transcendent. I congratulate you on this monumental effort and can’t wait to read the next installment. Having said that, I find myself in the difficult position of having to agree with Starfcker. You can hope that your rights come from the mouth of your god, but that does not mean that they do, and it certainly does not mean that others can not try to take those rights away from you. Your rights seem more likely to flow from the efforts of those who secured them for you and they will be enforced by the efforts of those who have stood on the bulwark in the face of the hoards. You might ascribe the nature of the hoards as those on the left, but I would suggest that perhaps it is just as likely that those hoards come from those on the right as well.

My contention is that it is the hoards of the monumentally stupid who pose the greatest risk to our rights. It matters not whether they believe in George Bush, or Bill Clinton. What matters is that they are not smart enough to see that they are selling their birthright for a mess of pottage. They see the rights as ephemeral but they see the pottage as real and grasp for the reality of a simple solution because they are too stupid to see what they will be giving up.

Thank you for another exceptional piece.

Grog
Grog
  Hollywood Rob
April 3, 2018 1:25 am

Just as a side note, a mess of pottage is easily obtained with an EBT card.

Hollywood Rob
Hollywood Rob
  Grog
April 3, 2018 9:21 am

Yes, yes it is.

doug
doug
  Hollywood Rob
April 3, 2018 11:42 am

Could they have sold their rights for an EBT card? obviously. I agree it appears to be the stupid who are eating this up from the major media.

messianicdruid
messianicdruid
  Hollywood Rob
April 4, 2018 5:17 am

“You can hope that your rights come from the mouth of your god, but that does not mean that they do, and it certainly does not mean that others can not try to take those rights away from you. “

All rights come from a g-o-d [ one who makes rules for others ] and entail responsibilities. The usurpers [ the false gods ] make rules to benefit themselves rather than the creation. America’s system succeeded for a time because it more closely aligned with the Creator’s Laws.

Keeping us fighting with each other, in ignorance, is key to the empowerment of false gods. By their fruits you shall know them.

Your “ mess of pottage” comment is very true.

Martel's Hammer
Martel's Hammer
April 3, 2018 12:15 am

The problem of course is that we “will not be left out of it” (slavery to the State). It is pretty simple really there are essentially three groups of people those able to compete in the marketplace and satisfy their wants and needs by doing so, a group that looks to government to take resources from the first and lastly a smaller cohort that seeks power on the backs of the second group by promising them ever more resources from the first group.

We first groupers grow weary of sharing our labor and insights, the second group is ever less competitive and therefore in more need of resources stolen from the first group at the point of a gun (from which all power flows). The Third group has somehow convinced themselves that permanent power by flooding the first world with lots and lots of second groupers will result in a manageable situation where they have their Elysium and the Favela’s fester but there are just enough first group tax cattle to keep it all going.

Obviously the key to this “plan” is to hobble the tax cattle first groupers…..take away their ability to fight back and resist (#2A) remove any alternatives outside of the “system” and render them compliant corralled and milked twice a day.

This is an existential fight for survival for the first group…..do you want to live on your knees with no future for your children. If we will not fight now, then when……the odds only get worse the longer this goes on…..the Immigrant Caravan is just a test of our resolve.

SmallerGovNow
SmallerGovNow
  Martel's Hammer
April 3, 2018 8:08 am

Great article. Even better comment… Chip

A. R. Wasem
A. R. Wasem
  xrugger
April 4, 2018 12:36 pm

XR – Perhaps – but in a state of war the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Has been said previously but overall a superb job of explication – congrats. I do agree with DA (being an agnostic) that intelligence is the key; no need to bring a “creator” into the picture. BTW it’s “indiscriminate”.

messianicdruid
messianicdruid
  A. R. Wasem
April 4, 2018 11:41 pm

What if the Creator is the One trying to get your attention?

Grog
Grog
April 3, 2018 2:36 am

Nice Post Xrugger.

I think you are correct in the delineation of God Given and Natural Rights. Overall all, I’d agree with your major contentions, for what that’s worth.

I do have a few a few comments for your consideration.

You wrote, “I suggest that free men who believe they are the children of a Creator God find it easier to hold firmly to the notion that they possess natural rights inborn and inherent to their nature as free beings.”, and in this, I think you are mostly correct.

Please hold that thought for a minute while I add this sentence:

“It was founded as a Constitutional Republic rooted in the idea of majority rule with respect for the rights and aspirations of the minority.” Methinks that sentence is problematic in that all definitions need to be provided, structure and parsing could go on for quite sometime. Though I agree, that notion on its face is quite well known. I doubt many understand the distinction between a republic based on principle and “representational democracy”.

I know people who consider themselves devout believers. They can quote scripture well and read extensively, always attend church every time the door is open. They volunteer, serve, tithe, witness, etc.

I also know many people are just as devout in their belief of republicanism (small ‘r’, not the party). They are well versed in American history (well before “The Founding”), continue to read extensively,
and are also well versed in many types of government, etc.

Both groups, and they are not always mutually exclusive, are what I call “The Paint By The Numbers People” ( I just think of them as the PBNP).

They know all kinds of numbers and dates, events, players, geography, etc. That is their comfortable world. They never ask ‘what if ‘, or ask for more information, unless it reinforces what they already know. They would certainly be the smartest kids in the class, for they regurgitate so eloquently.

They never quite know what the picture will look like until all of the numbered spaces are filled with the correct paint color.

All forest, no trees.

If you know of some of these people, do you believe their vision is correctable?
I for one, do not.

This is not a criticism of your notable article, merely an observation that perhaps those who are capable and desire to be left the heck alone to have one’s own life without interference is akin the the odds of a Chinese space station landing on Admin.’s new roof.

Lastly, you wrote: “The victors in Lincoln’s War did not negate that pre-existing right. They only compelled the obedience of the unwilling.”

Succinctly, The victors in Lincoln’s War did not negate pre-existing rights. They only compelled universal national manumission.

Thanks for taking the time to write Xrugger. I’ll look forward to more of your endeavors.

doug
doug
  Grog
April 3, 2018 11:48 am

Grog, Lincoln also trampled on states rights and initiated our overly centralized and overly suppressive national government.

rhs jr
rhs jr
April 3, 2018 5:20 am

Reference also the 14th which says no state may take property without due process or deny citizens equal protection of the laws. That makes Civil Forfeiture and Affirmative Action UNCONSTITUTONAL; two more reasons to abolish this Communist government.

Gilnut
Gilnut
April 3, 2018 8:08 am

I believe that Peterson’s explanation of the Pareto Principle (80/20 Rule) goes a long way to explaining a lot in any human culture, right down to why governments are created in the first place. As a matter of fact if you really think long and deep about it you can make a very good argument that the natural state of most humans (the 80%) is slavery, in one form or another. It also explains why liberalism/progressivism is incompatible with human nature.

RiNS
RiNS
April 3, 2018 8:27 am

It was a nice post but Meh!

This is tuff thing to say coming from a fellow believer… but I am gonna give it a try.

You wrote…

I am not saying that atheists and agnostics have no appreciation of, or belief in the concept of natural rights. Yeah right…After you did and then do some more.

Other ones I like but not used here are

I hate break this to you. When “you” really don’t
You Know. When “you” think they don’t
You see. When “you” view they can’t
Don’t mean to offend. When really “you” do.

You should give those ones a spin sometime.
They are great at getting someones goat as well.
But don’t take this personally.. the use of “you” above doesn’t refer to you.

Faith that A God is required to believe in man and is the spice melange required to appreciate one’s inalienable rights under Natural Law. Wow that is a stretch..

Reminds me of something I watched a very long time ago…

Man that movie sucked… Heard The Book was a lot better.

But which God?

[imgcomment image[/img]

Hopefully my dead cat Delaney (PBUH) is not upset at my use of Cat Memes..

Earth to Houston..
Isn’t that the root of the civilizational clash right now?
And the same as it ever was an since time began..
This fight in the world for each other’s Sky Daddy in Heaven…

I have a question..

Is the belief in God Objective or Subjective?
And yeah it matters because it is the foundation to your argument.

I’d write moar but I am at work…

Yours in Odin,

RiNS

Andee Crumlin
Andee Crumlin
April 3, 2018 8:51 am

“If the spark of the Divine does not exist in human beings, then to claim the possession of natural rights as the basis of personal liberty and rational self-governance is a lunatic idea” Well then sir, thank you, you who believes in make belief for calling ME a lunatic. Here lies the true root of our problems.

RiNS
RiNS
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 9:27 am

With the Respect of the Lord Odin,

That isn’t what you just argued in piece rugger. It was actually the opposite. Geeze you are flipping and flopping moar than Bush I when doth saith Read My Lips….no new taxes.

And then you sez “leap in opposite directions” whilst calling poor Andee the lunatic..

This stuff writes itself!

Best,

RiNS

with apologies for the buzz at 3:57

RiNS
RiNS
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 10:21 am

The main thrust of the piece is not about the source of natural right.. blah, blah, blah

What a load of malarkey that is. If it wasn’t the main trust why did you bring it up in first place. You are being disingenuous now. And I really need an answer to my question.

The central point is what Andee points out when you say

If the spark of the Divine….

So what counts?
Belief in Unicorns.
Easter Bunny.
Green Men from Mars.
Stones in a Field.

Inquiring minds want to know…

When you say Divine what do you mean? Be honest too…
And is that Subjective or Objective?

Great you agree with Uncola!
I don’t….Deal with it!

Reminds me of my cat Delaney (PBUH) when she went to basement to piss in litter box and instead sprayed the walls. Later she is back in kitchen making googly eyes wanting a treat while expecting me to go clean up the mess. Well that liittle kitty taugh me well..

You pissed in this box not me..

Yours in Odin,

RiNS

RiNS
RiNS
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 12:07 pm

Sez you! Your title is Part III: The Hubris of the Ignorant…. yeah like that ain’t gonna get someone’s goat.

Maybe the Problem IS religion. Maybe the left that you do well to disparage only replaced The Gods of Abraham with the Gods of Post Modernism and Intersectionality. Seriously got to thread on Vox and trying pulling this shit and see how long it takes for you to be deemed a heretic..

you wrote..

For those who do not believe, that innate grasp of natural rights philosophy, while not non-existent, is arguably more tenuous and therefore more subject to the corrosive effects of leftist ideologies.

Why are you so sure about that. If you do know this for certain why are you here. Isn’t there a world that needs fixin’

And then you sez that isn’t the point.
So what is the point smarty pants?

Okay then. Not believe in what? Please explain by trying harder. You can do it! Then you wonder why Andee is taking it personal when it was you that made it that way.

Pissing all ovah da place..

And then you go on to talk about needing the spark of the Divine to appreciate the natural laws or something, blah, blah, blah…So I am going to ask the question again for the Third time.

Please define Divine for a dirt person who has missed the point.

Once you do please tell me if your belief in God, whoever that is, is a subjective or objective reality?

Yours with the Grace of the Everlasting Odin,

RiNS

Malcolm Ribeiro
Malcolm Ribeiro
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 1:37 pm

Please define Divine for a dirt person who refuses to see the point.

Fixed it for ‘ya. The foundation of atheism is the belief in nothing divine. The truth is already in front of us. Wise will believe but others are blinded by faith.

RiNS
RiNS
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 1:55 pm

Good one, geeze how long did it take to think that one up. I have read your bit a couple of times and have tired of what you are getting at.. I asked a question 3 times and still no answer. Yet I am the one who refuses to see the point. Stucky seems to think it is a legitimate question.

This article has as an undercurrent faith in a Christain God. Everybody here knows it even if folks are too chicken shit to talk about it.

Maybe you can answer the question then Malcolm.

So is the existence of God an Objective or Subjective Reality? It matters because from that would flow logically the existence and framework of our so-called inherent rights as defined by rugger..

Or Not..

Just John
Just John
April 3, 2018 9:10 am

FREAKING AWESOME!!! Excellent article X.
I’m encouraged to see that more and more people are realizing that in the big scheme of things that the Left/Right, Dem/Repub, Lib/Conserv paradigm is just an illusion perpetrated upon us to make us believe that we have some say as to how we are governed and who is governing US. I do believe that this illusion is going to become painfully obvious to everyone and then the gloves will come off and the fight for liberty will begin once again led as always by a small percentage of the population. My concern is Will it happen before TPTB have such a technological advantage that it may be virtually impossible to successfully resist. DRONES AI, ROBOTIC vehicles and soldiers, etc. So, the sooner it happens the better off we will be.

Gayle
Gayle
April 3, 2018 10:38 am

xrugger-

You composed a great essay, and I mostly agree with your premises. Thanks for an enjoyable read.

KeyserSusie
KeyserSusie
April 3, 2018 11:15 am

WoWsers. What great writing in the article and the comments. I feel inadequate to compete with such great thoughts. I can only cricket what has come before. And to that I was struck this morning by old posts here on TBP. For no particular reason I post rehashes should one want more deep thoughts from masters.

“The present Constitution and imposter, since the “Organic Act of 1871”, has enshrined British Maritime Law (aka, UCC: Uniform Commercial Code) in service to usurpation of individual rights in favor of inCorporation… “Corporations are People, my friend”, Mitt Romney.
No, Mitt, they are NOT and I am NOT your friend.”

An Apéritif to a Banquet of Consequences

And this one from 2012 rings bells still. It is interesting to read the tea leaves left in the cup from back then. In it is the taste of old timers here on TBP. I now belong to the crowd who mourn the loss of SSS. Stuckmeister is there in early glory.
WILL A PROPHET ASSUME COMMAND?

WILL A PROPHET ASSUME COMMAND?

Stucky
Stucky
April 3, 2018 12:36 pm

“The erosion of natural rights philosophy in the public mind and in civic discourse is deadly to personal liberty and public harmony.

Just a thought …. have we experienced an “erosion” of rights or, an explosion of them?

Illegals demand the right to stay here. A caravan of thousands is headed towards America as I type this, and they are demanding rights to enter, get a job, etc. Bakers want the right to not bake a cake. Homos want the right to that cake … and many other rights. Men want the right to chop off their dicks and be allowed in the military. Blacks seemingly demand more rights than anyone. Millennials want rights to safe spaces. Jews demand the right to never be criticized. Mooslims, even in Amerika, support the right to behead infidels. Cops never respect any rights. Vegans, if given the chance, will champion the rights of pigs, chickens, and cows over that of humans.

Ok, Ok, you get the idea. But, the explosion of rights could go on for pages.

Here’s another thought. Myriads upon myriads talk about this, that, or another “right”. But, precious few of the same people talk about duties, obligations, and responsibilities, as if such things are completely divorced from rights. It makes one wonder why that is, no?

Ragnar Deneskjold
Ragnar Deneskjold
April 3, 2018 12:52 pm

When the war comes, as I believe most of us realize it is impossible to avoid, understand that a destruction of infrastructure leads to the destruction of the technological tools to impose tyranny. In that, asymmetric warfare can provide a win, but only with a commensurate loss of life unlike anything ever seen.

Be careful of what we wish for….

Stucky
Stucky
April 3, 2018 12:59 pm

xrugger

First of all, kudos to you for tackling an extremely complex topic. I have thought about writing an article about “rights” for some time … but lacked the balls to do so. It is such a broad topic that my strategy would have focused on one narrow aspect of rights … that is, what is the SOURCE of these rights?

Interestingly enough, you wrote; — “The main thrust of the piece is not about the source of natural rights …”

Hmmm, it may not be your “main” thrust, but it IS your “underlying” thrust. You admit to being a Christian and, one does not have to “read into” into your article very deeply to see that you equate natural rights with those endowed upon humans by a Creator. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Really, truly.

That being said, surely you are not surprised by folks who are NOT believers — that they oppose/object to your stance, right? Their objection is natural and logical considering their point of view. Do you have an answer for them; why should they view rights from a Divine point of view when they are agnostic, atheist, or even a different religion? You see, that’s why I didn’t tackle writing the article! lol lol

Stucky
Stucky
April 3, 2018 1:09 pm

xrugger

One last thing. Consider this constructive criticism.

It would have helped (me) greatly if you gave more examples of what you mean by natural rights. You mentioned being left alone, …. Well, what else? Could have used more specifics, and less generalities.

For example; what about this “Universal Declaration Of Human Rights”?

http://hrlibrary.umn.edu/edumat/hreduseries/tb1b/Section3/udhrrev.html

Some good stuff there. And lots of bullshit, too. But, my point is it’s easier to argue specifics, rather than generalities.

Again. nice job, overall. You got bigger cajones than I do!

Stucky
Stucky
April 3, 2018 1:12 pm

Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a very good — and long — article about human rights.

Here’s the outline

.

1. The General Idea of Human Rights
2. The Existence and Grounds of Human Rights
2.1 How Can Human Rights Exist?
2.2 Human Agency as the Basis of Human Rights
2.3 Political Conceptions of Human Rights
3. Which Rights are Human Rights?
3.1 Civil and Political Rights
3.2 Rights of Women, Minorities, and Groups
3.3 Environmental Rights
3.4 Social Rights
4. Universal Human Rights in a World of Diverse Beliefs and Practices
5. International Human Rights Law and Organizations
5.1 Historical Overview
5.2 United Nations Human Rights Treaties
5.3 Other Human Rights Agencies within the United Nations
5.4 Regional Arrangements
5.5 The International Criminal Court
5.6 Promotion of Human Rights by States
5.7 Nongovernmental Human Rights Organizations
5.8 The Future of Human Rights Law
Bibliography
Cited Works
Recent Collections on the Philosophy of Human Rights
Selected Human Rights Journals
Academic Tools
Other Internet Resources
Documents and Treaties
Organizations (Governmental and Nongovernmental)
Related Entries

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights-human/

Uncola
Uncola
  Stucky
April 3, 2018 1:56 pm

Where did the Ten Commandments come from? Seriously, what is the answer? Regardless, would any answer to that question be an opinion?

Are not “rights” guaranteed by “laws”? Natural or otherwise?

For some time now, I have been toying with writing a comparison / contrast between the Ten Commandments and Cultural Marxism.

In doing so, on what would I predicate my preferences?

Is this not the crux of the matter?

Stucky
Stucky
  Uncola
April 3, 2018 2:30 pm

“Where did the Ten Commandments come from?”

Depends on whom you ask.

A devout Jew or Christian will say they came directly from God. They don’t view that as an opinion, but factual as stated by Scripture.

Atheists, agnostics, and (probably) people from other religions will say the commandments came from the mind of man. Interestingly, they also don’t think theirs is just an opinion.

Comparing the Ten Commandments and Cultural Marxism …. now that sounds like a helluva good story-line.

BL
BL
  Stucky
April 3, 2018 2:36 pm

Interesting tidbit, a segment of the Egyptian Book of the Dead features an almost identical version of the Ten Commandments written long before the Bible.

RiNS
RiNS
  BL
April 3, 2018 3:47 pm

Suck on this Christians.
You guys are pikers when it comes to codifying laws against bad behaviour..
You folks have 10 and Egyptians have 42…. ya missed it by that much

or maybe Moses wuz just a lazy fuck on the Mount and got tired of carrying all those Tablets down the hill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Ah-WdAwVg9c

Maybe we should cut him some slack. He was old afterall..

THE 42 COMMANDMENTS OF ANCIENT EGYPT

I.

Thou shalt not kill, nor bid anyone kill.

II.

Thou shalt not commit adultery or rape.

III.

Thou shalt not avenge thyself nor burn with rage.

IV.

Thou shalt not cause terror.

V.

Thou shalt not assault anyone nor cause anyone pain.

VI.

Thou shalt not cause misery.

VII.

Thou shalt not do any harm to man or to animals.

VIII.

Thou shalt not cause the shedding of tears.

IX.

Thou shalt not wrong the people nor bear them any evil intent.

X.

Thou shalt not steal nor take that which does not belong to you.

XI.

Thou shalt not take more than thy fair share of food.

XII.

Thou shalt not damage the crops, the fields, or the trees.

XIII.

Thou shalt not deprive anyone of what is rightfully theirs.

XIV.

Thou shalt not bear false witness, nor support false allegations.

XV.

Thou shalt not lie, nor speak falsely to the hurt of another.

XVI.

Thou shalt not use fiery words nor stir up any strife.

XVII.

Thou shalt not speak or act deceitfully to the hurt of another.

XVIII.

Thou shalt not speak scornfully against others.

XIX.

Thou shalt not eavesdrop.

XX.

Thou shalt not ignore the truth or words of righteousness.

XXI.

Thou shalt not judge anyone hastily or harshly.

XXII.

Thou shalt not disrespect sacred places.

XXIII.

Thou shalt cause no wrong to be done to any workers or prisoners.

XXIV.

Thou shalt not be angry without good reason.

XXV.

Thou shalt not hinder the flow of running water.

XXVI.

Thou shalt not waste the running water.

XXVII.

Thou shalt not pollute the water or the land.

XXVIII.

Thou shalt not take God’s name in vain.

XXIX.

Thou shalt not despise nor anger God.

XXX.

Thou shalt not steal from God.

XXXI.

Thou shalt not give excessive offerings nor less than what is due.

XXXII.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.

XXXIII.

Thou shalt not steal from nor disrespect the dead.

XXXIV.

Thou shalt remember and observe the appointed holy days.

XXXV.

Thou shalt not hold back the offerings due God.

XXXVI.

Thou shalt not interfere with sacred rites.

XXXVII.

Thou shalt not slaughter with evil intent any sacred animals.

XXXVIII.

Thou shalt not act with guile or insolence.

XXXIX.

Thou shalt not be unduly proud nor act with arrogance.

XL.

Thou shalt not magnify your condition beyond what is appropriate.

XLI.

Thou shalt do no less than your daily obligations require.

XLII.

Thou shalt obey the law and commit no treason.

Cuz We Wuz Kangz!

http://www.aerobiologicalengineering.com/wxk116/Maat/

BL
BL
  RiNS
April 3, 2018 6:17 pm

RiNS
That comes from Book 125 (The Book of Ani). Book of the dead.

Moses was not lazy, he was raised in the Egyptian ruling class and had acquired knowledge of the sacred writings.

GOD
GOD
  BL
April 3, 2018 7:17 pm

BEFORE EGYPT WAS I AM.

Odin
Odin
  BL
April 3, 2018 7:34 pm

Hey God Allah or Jehovah or whatevah you be calling yourself these days/
Geeze Now that I think about it. It’s no wonder they are all confused cuz even I can’t keep up..

Anyways…

Are you gonna get the over here to Valhalla.
It is poker night are you going to play or what?
I realize you are busy what with all that shit happening in Middle East
but Come On Man!

Geeze some neighbor you is..
The Chips are getting stale.
The Beer is gettin’ warm.
And the Entertainment is threatening to leave.

Your Best Pal,

Odin

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 3, 2018 9:21 pm

What is this business of subjective/objective? What is important to consider is facts and values. Facts are elements of sensual experience in the observable world while values like Faith, Love, and Hope come from GOD. Ponder that you atheists.

RiNS el deplorabe
RiNS el deplorabe
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 11:25 pm

First things first. I don’t have disbelief. You do.

Bite on that one for a while.. I am open to ideas. I even agreed with the framework laid out by a farmer that seemed far moar reasonable than what you wrote here.

You might think my question was/is silly. . Maybe for you. Still many a Philosopher have had a go at it. It is funny I am accused of lacking introspection by Vodka for asking questions, And then you blather faith as fact. All I can say is wow. I have spent many years wrestling with the illogical nature of faith only to realize that from all that has sprung the conjecture that frames my life. But yeah what I need is moar introspection. On that other thread Vodka is getting loads of up votes for personal attack while I am getting lots of down votes. Does that really make any sense for you as Christian..

Double standard much?

Maybe you need to look at what you wrote as a non-believer. Might you then see the need for introspection is for you and yours and not me. I say that even though I spend my days trying hard to see different points of view. Hoping, foolishly maybe, to find some common ground so that we can all get on with it and not kill each other.. But you Sir you have a superpower. Some extra brownie points when it comes to morality. At least that is how you see things..

You were being dishonest when you wrote this. You knew damn well what you meant and what was implied in your premise. You were just too chicken shit to come out and say it. Like I said before the problem isn’t religion. The problems ARE religions.

They compete. They just do.

Just as HR says in his piece. As was stated by someone else here in thread earlier. But ya just can’t make the leap. Wonder why. Probably because your point of view is non negotiable.

Just like the Harpie feminists.
Just like the Head Chopper Musloids.
Just like the Marxists.
And Just like the Facists.

You say we are equal but you don’t actually believe that. Do you? Come on be honest…What if I wrote an article tomorrow and reversed it to make claim that morality flows only from the Enlightenment and Science. That Religion if it even matters must sit at the back of the bus. What would happen?

Would I be shocked to see folks like Tommy, Vodka, Some Ribero dude and yourself reaching for all sorts of platitudes. Fuck Vodka warned me to stop mocking his God by making personal attacks on me. And yet you guys sit back slap each other on back All the while mocking as unworthy those you deem Unbelievers. All the while saying shit like my work is done here. Time to move on to Part IV

Because with you it is all or nothing. And after you have done all that you then clamber up the hill. Pitch shit ballz at the unworthy. Then seem truly shocked that some people just don’t seem willing to get on board your shit train.

Oh sorry please forgive me for saying that! Cuz Vodka told me to stop mocking his God. Please forgive me Vodka I promise to do better. Imperfect as I am and very much thanks to your Book.

Anyways I am likely going to get a shit tonne of down votes for this. I really think that will be great. Still if someone could spare an upvote or two you’d be doing a fella a favour.

Yours in Odin,

RiNS

Llpoh
Llpoh
  RiNS el deplorabe
April 3, 2018 11:38 pm

Rob – Christian believers of “God-given rights” infer such rights, despite the fact that they are not mentioned specifiaclly in many cases. Perhaps the best they can do is to use the Ten Commandments to infer a right to life and property (the inverse of thou shalt not murder or steal). But a great deal exists in the Bible that is contrary to personal freedom – slavery, subjugation of women, etc. being prime examples.

There are rights – and they are the ones people are prepared to defend. No other rights exist. In my opinion.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  RiNS el deplorabe
April 4, 2018 12:00 am

By the way, Rob, thumbs down from those tolerant, turn the other cheek, meek shall inherit the earth, do unto others as you would have them do unto you “Christians” ( Christians my hairy ass) is to be expected.

I gave up organized religion long ago due to the vast, though not entirely universal, hypocrisy of those groups. Generally, when someone tells me they are Christian, or Muslim, or Jewish, or, especially, Mormon, I back away with my eyes averted, keeping one hand on my wallet at all times, and beat feet.

RiNS
RiNS
  Llpoh
April 4, 2018 7:29 am

Thanks Man! Really… To win one needs to risk being offensive. I am and Rugger is too. But it is just part of the game when you are a professional shit monkey..And the reason why I like this place.

Besides the only lesson I have learned so far in life is the Meek shall get buried in the earth.

Cheers

Rob

David Allen
David Allen
  xrugger
April 3, 2018 11:30 pm

Kudos for not mocking those with whom you disagree. However, if someone purports that something exists (i.e. God, unicorns, leprechauns, etc.) the burden of proof is upon them. It is impossible to prove a negative (i.e. that something does not exist). If I suggest that the Tooth Fairy exists, can you prove otherwise? To suggest that a person who finds no evidence for the existence of God is being as subjective as the person who chooses to believe in God, without evidence and purely on faith (emotion) is a false equivalence.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  David Allen
April 3, 2018 11:42 pm

David – you must be new here. Mocking is one of the things we do best. Also we are good at racial vilification, outright abuse, denigration of those with poor reasoning skills, and general shit-throwing, to name just a few of our many skills and talents. Get used to it.

David Allen
David Allen
  Llpoh
April 3, 2018 11:46 pm

Thanks for the heads up. 🙂

Llpoh
Llpoh
April 3, 2018 11:30 pm

Seems to me rights are what you are willing to define them as and defend as necessary. Those claiming rights are God given are effectively suggesting they know the mind of God, and are in my opinion being very arrogant. There is little indeed in Scripture enumerating such rights, and some passages where slavery, for instance, or inequity of sexes, is specifically mentioned (stuff like obey your master).

American tradition is to value liberty, property rights, right to life. Those rights are, in my opinion, inarguable. But many others disagree. If it is a true right, it should be worth fighting for.

Some folks make the case that rights exist for food, for water, housing, jobs, etc. I believe that anything which confers on another a positive obligation is not a right at all. Forcing me to feed someone, or give them a job, so that they can enjoy their “right”, means in fact that no such right to food exists.

If people are not willing to fight for something, perhaps even to the point of death, then I posit that they really do not believe that thing is a right. And right now, few indeed would be willing to fight for life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Security and comfort seem to be preferable to freedom for many.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 3, 2018 11:56 pm

How do we account for life? How do we explain the universe? We have so many questions that go unanswered. Science tells us that order is everywhere in the atoms around us, in the cells that produce the life that makes up the life of the biosphere, and the plasma that make up the stars. Isn’t these manifestations an indication of a high intelligence working out a plan of some type. This intelligence is what we call GOD.

Every cell in our body is made up of atoms. How did these atoms become life? Every word is an idea. How is it that a word which is just an abstraction can convey to us a picture in our mind of an object or thing that we can recognize from sensation?

We take for granted all the mysteries that exist in our material world. Ignorance cannot see these mysteries.

RiNS is asking the wrong question which proves his ignorance. GOD is found in the study of values not facts. GOD is spirit which is not material. Values are spiritual not material. Facts are material. Subjective and material have nothing to do with it. If one’s mind which is subjective is focused on the material then it can only see the material. The human brain is an organic computer that operates in a field of consciousness and the attention is nothing but a cursor in that field that can focus on facts or values. Where does RiNS attention focus? If RiNS attention were focusing on the realm of values then perhaps he would eventually find GOD. GOD is not a person. I dare say that GOD is the supreme intelligence that runs the universe and creates the order in it. Science proves that order. GOD is the absolute.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 12:11 am

Tbird says “GOD is the supreme intelligence that runs the universe and creates the order in it.”

Actually, science proves just the oposite. The natural order of things is entropy – disorder. Thermodynamics and all that. Just saying.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Llpoh
April 4, 2018 11:22 am

Gravity is a law. Rotation is a right.

[imgcomment image[/img]

David Allen
David Allen
  Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 12:14 am

Man is always and everywhere seeking explanations. It serves no useful purpose to accept an explanation without evidence. Existential angst is a part of the human experience but is no excuse for superstitious, nonsensical explanations of the meaning or origin of life. You use the word value inappropriately. Value is quite often material. I value food, clothing, shelter and a wide array of other material objects. Mankind has a wide array of values, some material and some not. The notion of God is irrelevant to all of them.

RiNS
RiNS
  Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 10:09 am

Asking the wrong question. Well if that is the case then I am one of many and we are Legion. So it cannot hardly be a surprise to witness at the inability of so many to move out side the safe space of faith. Makes sense really when reality is grounded first and foremost in the subjective. It provides comfort and easy answers to complex questions. So it was that when I started reading article yesterday at first there was this urge to conform. To get in line with everyone else. Send atta boys and tell xrugger he is outstanding.

I just couldn’t do it. It would after all be dishonest for me to go along back slapping and high fives. Besides atta boys make for boring discussions. If you don’t believe me then mosey on over to Vox or Vice and behold the religion they are offering.

Those folks are super fabulous!

And so it goes. Another day and nothing resolved. Just folks like TBird and Vodka standing on their hill. I on mine along with some like minded. Each of us throwing shit at the other. All is right and nothing is done.. Nobody willing to die on the other.

I find the title The Hubris of the Ignorant amusing to say the least. And a double edged sword as well. If one could only step outside the safe space of their own persuasion filter, for just a few minutes, it would then become obvious to all that xruggers ad hominem applies to everyone involved. But that is just me. A guy who apparently is in need of moar introspection and work on oneself..

Thanks Vodka. You’re a Peach..

And before anyone dog piles me, I do see the problems working from an objective perspective. Yes, some things still cannot be proven. So some things do require faith. The problem is being whittled away though it is likely to never be a day when all the answers are known for certain. Even if it was the case most folks would still more than likely choose to reside in their preferred safe space. Soothed by the comfort of their own ignorance.

Still though for me at least it is better to start from the objective. Then everything can be negotiable. Not set in stone with books written a long time ago. Anyways thanks for playing along with my little experiment in Cognitive Dissonance. Its been great! And keep on keeping on with the thumbs down…

Cheers and of course

Yours in Odin,

RiNS

[imgcomment image[/img]

Llpoh
Llpoh
April 4, 2018 12:07 am

Rights are the same as property, same as land, same as national borders. Rights are rights only so long as you are willing and able to defend them. Otherwise, they are just a shopping list of wants and desires.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 6:10 am

Llpoh life is not in a state of entropy the biosphere is growing. And while there is an appearance of entropy in the universe around us science can’t prove that the total universe is in a state of entropy. Science only observes the part; not the whole.

However I agree with your assessment of organized religion. But religion keeps the concept of GOD alive in the many that are too ignorant at this time to see what GOD really is.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 9:12 pm

@ David Allen “Value is quite often material”

Yes what a misuse of a noble word material man has made of it. Why don’t you check out the etymology of the word as it was used in the past. This is how I am using the word.

All causes lie in the Domain of fact (natural law) while all purposes lie in the Domain of value. Value gives meaning and purpose to our life.

You use the word Existential which tells me you are on the material level of reasoning. The essential nature of value is associated with the essence of things and beings.

Animals could care less of value because their life is not about purpose but of survival. Man at his lowest level is not about purpose but pleasure. Man’s higher level is about purpose so values are important. The ideal is to balance fact in the natural world with value coming from the spiritual that creates harmony.

I’m afraid our society has become more interested in pleasure than purpose. As a result the material man cannot see GOD in creation.

How sad. The visible is man’s proportional portion of the invisible. Ponder that!

David Allen
David Allen
  Thunderbird
April 4, 2018 9:42 pm

The word value simply means the significance or regard one gives something. I don’t see anything ignoble about valuing those things we require to sustain ourselves. It is tragic however, if, as the highest species on earth, our values never rise above those of brute beasts. Perhaps you should consult the meaning of existential, since without existence there is nothing to value (material or spiritual) or anyone to value it. I believe you mean that animals could not care less rather than could. Ponder that. Man is an actor. Apart from his autonomic nervous system his actions are purposeful and are the result of evolutionary impulses and the values he has adopted. None of this has anything to do with a God, except that men have often historically sought to answer the nagging questions of life, which cause ‘existential angst’, by resort to myth and superstition.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 5, 2018 12:16 am

To you value means that. You are just replacing something higher with something lower. It is like at Christmas replacing the celebration of the birth of Jesus with Santa Claus or at Easter replacing the celebration of the resurrection of The Christ with the Easter Bunny. All I am saying is that values were never meant to include material desires. It is modern man who latched material desires to value. And of course the dictionaries now reflect the notion of material desires to values.

Existence has to do with the material world which we experience through sensation. It has nothing to do with values. Brute beasts have no values. Man has two natures; that of an animal and that of a being that wants to do. Where do those impulses you talk about come from? Certainly not from his animal nature.

Why is it that I don’t have existential angst and you don’t appear to demonstrate it either? Is it because of your age and you don’t think about death?

Science demonstrates to us that there is order in the universe. What caused this order? Isn’t this proof of a higher intelligence in the universe that is higher than man? If it isn’t GOD than what is it? To me GOD is the name of this intelligence. To me this is not a myth or superstition. It is a fact because we are creatures that create order in our world so it is reasonable to postulate that there is an intelligence putting order in the universe.

Have you ever thought about or rather contemplated where our evolutionary impulses come from? Where our values come from? Why is everything in nature self regulating? I have studied philosophy and science all my life and pondered many questions of knowledge and my conclusion is that there is a GOD and everything has to do with GOD. Everything is GOD experiencing. It is a thrilling experience to realize this. It means that man has value as a creature destined for further evolution through a developing soul.

Everything in nature is about the transformation of energies of which there are many. The universe is about transformations of all kinds. The Christian church is about transformation. The transformation of man out of his animal nature into the Christ nature working with the values of Faith, hope and love.

Right now there is a temporary falling away from the true practice of these values (virtues) that can bring about the transformation of the old man into the new man. This is what born again means. The old man must die and be resurrected into the new man. (transformation) This is what the story of Jesus Christ means.

This temporary falling away is because of man’s fascination of the material. But this will not last. There is a new understanding coming along with a new religion. This seems to happen every 2000 the 2500 years in the history of our species.

Your logic works fine in the world of material existence of shadows sensed by our five senses. (Aristotle’s cave) But the world of values (not your material ones) when investigated by the intellect with the aid of our attention reveals a non-sensual world of many possibilities that transcends space & time into dimensions that make one realize our material world is very limited. This is what man is destined for.

The spiritual is more real than your material one. It is through our consciousness that we find GOD. Faith of consciousness is freedom. Love of consciousness evokes the same in response. Hope of consciousness is strength. These are spiritual values.

Now ponder this: Faith of feeling is weakness. Love of feeling evokes the opposite. Hope of feeling is slavery. Faith of body is stupidity. Love of body depends only on type and polarity. Hope of body is disease. This is using values for material purposes.

Good night.

John
John
April 5, 2018 12:24 am

Amendment VII

“In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved….”

Long time ago,when I was young,zealous and much more stupid than I am now , I demanded a jury trial after receiving a huge speeding ticket (to put it mildly,I was driving WAY too fast-probably it was FAA radar operator who spotted me first).

Also I demanded – in case the answer would be “No” – to have this answer in writing.

The Judge and the DA,both fat , vicious-looking women,just stared at me with the expression of ferocious astonishment.

And then I realized that the 7th Amendment in particular and US Constitution in general were the last thing on Earth they cared about.They were like kitten chasing their own tails,playing the same games over and over and over.

In the end I paid this ticket and ceased to care about such things too.

Later on my lawyer friend told me that the US Supreme Court increased this amount from $20 to $75000 for the federal courts but it was totally illegal-US Supreme Court may only interpret and clarify but may not modify US Constitution.

It was the finishing blow to my legal piety and civic spirit.And this blow was coming from the lawyer , no less.

Mike-SMO
Mike-SMO
April 5, 2018 2:46 am

An enjoyable and enlightening discussion since I am usually limited to the laws of my youth: “1:40” (1/4 inch per foot), an appreciation for the phrase “self-evident”, and for the “reminder” about 7.62 (NATO). Thank you all.

Thunderbird
Thunderbird
April 5, 2018 6:44 am

Mixing apples & oranges and calling it the same is hubris. That is why so many are confused today.

Constitutional law and Administrative law are two different things yet many don’t know the difference.

Thank you for the essay xrugger. The comments show that many do not understand the foundations of natural philosophy.

Odin
Odin
  Thunderbird
April 5, 2018 7:14 am

Earthlings

The all knowing, or so he thinks, Thunderbird has spoken. Talk about Hubris.

BWHAHAHAHA!

First the good news!

There will be moar liquor and whores for the true believers.

No whores for you in Valhalla, TBird. I also plan on giving all of your allotment of beer to someone who will appreciate it.

Ingrate!

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“May we always drink from the skulls of our enemies!”

Skol.

Kind Regards and still your Lord,

Odin

Lord Buddha
Lord Buddha
  xrugger
April 5, 2018 9:28 am

Greetings from Lord Buddha.

You’re on thin ice rugger Best take yer skates and fly away.

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Please note: Don’t mind the twisted cross. It was corrupted by failed artist from Austria. Don’t worry folks that Fucker has been paying for that mistake. And yeah his art sucked just about as much as TBird’s argument.

Natural Law and Hubris talk about two things that belong together. Oh yeah don’t listen to that Odin fellow. He has done shit since he banished the Ice Giants.

Kind Regards,

Your True Lord Buddha

KeyserSusie
KeyserSusie
April 5, 2018 10:14 am

Such good dialogue deserves to be re served this post from TBP

Light in the Philosophy of Zarathustra

light a light
time4teeth

Mohamed
Mohamed
April 5, 2018 10:39 am

Greetings Its Your Most Friendly Prophet Mo (Peace be Upon Me)

Talk about Hubris, I wrote a Book about it….

Anyways so I am out for a ride on my Unicorn and what do I see. INFIDELS! Getting it all wrong. You folks best get yourself a copy of my Book. It has been a best seller for 1400 years. Yeah I can’t read but I did have a real nice fellow write it all down. He really wanted to after I splained the situation.

If you get my drift..

Time to get with the Program People before I start cutting off yer ballz . And I’m talking to you TBird!

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Peace and Luv and all that other horseshit,

Your Friend for now,

Mo

p.s. Suck on it! 100..

Paul Bonneau
Paul Bonneau
April 10, 2018 11:35 am

There is no such thing as “rights”. The concept was one cooked up in the 18th century, and used as a debating tool against tyrants. By now it has been captured and absorbed by the tyrants, to their ends. “Rights” now serve tyranny rather than liberty.

http://strike-the-root.com/life-without-rights
http://strike-the-root.com/i-dont-have-rights-nor-do-i-want-any

It’s better to understand and adapt to reality, rather than to live in a dream world. There is nothing protecting you but your will and determination, and that of your close associates. The government will sacrifice you and your family without a qualm.