Guest Post by Eric Peters
Can the disposable be sustainable?
A smartphone does lots of things, many of them astounding. One thing it doesn’t do is last very long. Generally two or three years before it gets thrown away. Usually because it’s not worth buying a new battery for it relative to the value of the phone itself at this point – and also because by this point, the phone itself is becoming outdated.
Even if it still works – and even if you decided to buy a new battery for it and damn the cost-to-value ratio, maybe because you really like the phone – the phone will become useless soon enough regardless because it won’t “supported” by its manufacturer. All those neat things the phone used to be able to do it won’t be able to do anymore. You can’t update it; the apps no longer work.
Useless, even if the battery works.
Throw it away – get a new one. It isn’t very . . . sustainable.
Think about the Everest of tossed sail fawns accumulating in landfills all over the world. Yes, they can be recycled – in theory. But in fact, many aren’t. And then there’s the energy that went into making them… and making new ones…. hmmmm.
Corded wall phones, on the other hand, lasted decades. Sometimes, generations. Pre-Millennials will remember the phone in the kitchen they grew up with and couldn’t quite reach when they were six still being there after they’d grown up, gone off to college and come home again for a visit.
It worked as well in 1995 as it had back in 1975. And probably still works today – assuming it hasn’t been tossed in favor of a sail fawn.
Very sustainable.
Like non-electric cars vs. the rapidly approaching and artificially-induced tsunami of electric cars. Which are the cell phones of transportation – and just as sustainable.
For the same reasons.
They are battery-powered, first of all. And no matter the hype about increased range, batteries – the ones actually in existence, not the prophesied Batteries of The Future (which never seems to arrive) they deteriorate over time, just like the 12V starter batteries that have been starting the engines of non-electric cars for the past almost 100 years.
Because chemistry.
Batteries store electricity, which is then drained to power something – either the starter motor, as in a non-electric car or the electric motor that propels the car, if it’s an electric car.
This discharges the battery.
In a non-electric car, the battery is recharged as you drive by the alternator, a kind of mini utility plant that is itself powered mechanically by the running gas engine – usually via a belt-driven pulley. It generates electricity and feeds some it back it the battery, where it is stored and ready for the next cycle of starting up the car’s engine.
In an electric car, the battery is recharged externally – by plugging the EV into a charging station – the downside being the car can’t be driven while the battery is recharging.
But both types of batteries have the same downside in one respect: Their ability to accept and store a charge is finite and will decline over time – the amount of time varying according to the number of times the battery is discharged and then recharged.
Some batteries – 12 volt or lithium ion – last longer than others, especially if they aren’t subjected to heavy discharge and fast charge cycling (mark those italics, EV people).
But neither will last as long as the car.
They are disposable.
And disposable sooner.
The difference is the 12 volt starter battery in a non-electric car is worth replacing – several times over the car’s life – because it only costs about $100. But the electric car’s battery – which costs several thousand dollars – isn’t worth replacing even once.
It makes perfect sense to put a new $100 12 volt starter battery in a 10-year-old non-electric car with a retail value of $6,000. It makes sense putting another $100 battery in the same car five years later when it’s only worth $3,000. And it still makes sense to put a third $100 battery into the same car when it’s 20-years-old and only worth $1,500 – if the car still runs more or less well.
But it makes no sense at all to put a $3,000 battery in a 10-year-old EV that’s worth $6,000. It is economic insanity to put a $3,000 battery in 15-year-old EV that’s worth $3,000.
You throw away the electric car. Get a new one. Just like you would a sail fawn.
Which car is more . . . sustainable?
Or rather, which cars?
One non-electric car that lasts for 15-20 years before you throw it away – or the two (or three) electric cars you had to buy over the same period of time?
How much energy – and raw materials, many of them not very pleasant and very hard on the Earth in terms of getting them out of the Earth, such as cobalt – does it take to make a single 400 pound electric car battery pack?
How about two?
That’s 800 pounds – roughly – of unpleasant materials and all the energy it took to convert them into two EV battery packs which will still not give the EV the economically viable service life of one non-electric car, which will generally go at least 15 years before it approaches the end of its economically viable useful service life – defined as that moment when it’s not worth spending more than “x” to keep it going because the car itself is only worth “y.”
That moment comes much sooner with an electric car because of the high cost of a replacement battery vs. the depreciated value of the electric car.
But it’s not only the batteries.
EVs are also much more electronically disposable.
The motors are simple and low maintenance but the systems which control them (and supervise the maintenance/charging-discharging of the batteries) are not. When those fritz out – or are no longer “supported” – the car is as useless as an eight-year-old smartphone, Even if its motors have another 200,000 miles of life left in them.
And that’s not very . . . sustainable.
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Why don’t they just put an alternator on electric cars to charge the battery as you go? You’d never have to plug it in. And they act like Elon Musk is such a genius. Seems more like a retard to me.
What’s going to spin the alternator?
A gas engine and/or braking force can spin it.
That’s why some hybrids aren’t that bad, but EVs are a laugh.
Most hybrids gas motors would power the car and get better mileage if it wasnt dragging around a half ton of battery and electric motor. Its two complete driveline setups. Fucking stupid really. I had an old vw gas car that got 70mpg.
There is always an efficiency associated withe batteries, alternators, electric motors, gasoline engines, etc., as they convert between energy forms. In the case of spinning the alternator to re-charge the battery, the alternator motion comes from the car motion which came from the battery to begin with. The energy taken from the electric car battery to move the car, thru it’s electric motors, and spin the alternator will always be greater than the energy returned to the electric car battery from the alternator.
Wow! You just invented the perpetual motion machine!
I think Jethro Bodine invented an engine that ran on water in a Beverly Hillbillies episode… it was the damn carburetor you hadda have a trailer to haul!
As Foghorn Leghorn used to say, “It’s a — I say it’s a joke, son! I keep pitching ’em and you keep missing ’em!”
Superb review sir. Artificial obsolescence in our throw away society.
Last I checked the batteries in Wal Mart were $50 – $75, minor correction.
They also are not spontaneously combustible due to any flaw in manufacturing.
A most significant factor, and in cold climates do indeed lose some capacity, but not half, more or less, and there is no software to fail to open the doors.
I have had 3 phones in the past 11 years. The first was replaced because it could not handle the new software. The second was because I dropped it 3 stories and shattered the screen – it still worked but I couldn’t see anything. My current phone is 4 years old and I have no plans on upgrading anytime soon.
BTW: There is no way I will ever use a 5G phone – the frequency is too dangerous.
I’ve been running the same Motorola flip phone for 17 years. About 6 years ago I bought a replacement battery on eBay for $5. Pushed the button on the back, slid off the battery door, popped out the old and dropped in the new one. Done in about 15 seconds. My newest car is 12 years old, and my oldest (Jeep CJ7) is 39.
TSquare: Agreed, I too will not use 5G and if it comes to the point where that is all that’s out there, then I will be phoneless or go back to a landline if those are still available. That or walkie talkie. I use a flip phone, it was acting up so I got some new batteries but before I could install the new battery, the phone started working just fine again. I blame the service provider.
Built in obsolescence is necessary to keep the consumer machine going. My folks had a refrigerator they bought in 1968 and it finally died in 2018. Think there’s any machine out there today that can do that? How about Air conditioners? I had a window unit in the work shop, it lasted two years and then quit. Had to buy a new one, after an entire two years, seems it died one year after the warranty expired.
A $3,000 battery may be worth it if the car body and other electronic/mechanical functions are able to make it another 50,000 miles. What new car can you purchase for $12,000 and get 200,000 miles out of it?
I’m thinking my next car will be a small 2 door pickup (maybe a ford ranger or Chevy s10) in very good shape but with a ton of miles on it for cheap. Then stick a new LS motor in it. A new LS motor will get good gas mileage, are very reliable and has great power. AND no fancy schmancy goo gaas.
“Batteries store electricity.”
No, capacitors store electricity.
Batteries store chemicals ready to produce electricity.
High school level EE and politics are not Eric’s strong points.
Batteries store electricity until they are discharged. Capacitors will discharge over time also.
So you open up a battery and you find a shitload of electrons?
Or a shitload of chemicals ready to produce electricity on demand?
I’ve never looked.
Win-mag is correct. Capacitors store charge as the electric field in the dielectric between the two plates. A battery does the work of converting charge into chemical potential energy. Both have internal series resistances that slowly self-discharge over time.
Anyone here have a new(er) Mercedes? I’ve heard 2 stories of people who had to call tow trucks because they couldn’t open the hood to jump start a dead battery. In fact, they can’t even find the battery.
My father bought an equinox. With less than 50,000 miles on it, the center console(?) screen went out. Can’t start the car without it. WTF.
As I get older, I’m going to buy older and older cars.
Batteries and dedicated jump start terminals are generally in the trunk or under the seat on newer cars.
Curse them all (newer cars).
Cant remember what kind of car it was but afriend had a car he’d had to remove the inner fender well to access the battery.
Under a seat? Make sure the tool kit has that special tow hook or tow trucks won’t tow you. The lug wrench is some odd metric size also. Take a look. My tow truck driver friend was telling about people being stranded and without these special things he couldn’t do anything.
I have a 2005 Benz, E500. The main battery (for starting) is in the trunk. There is an auxilliary (for all the elecronic gizmos) battery under the hood. The terminal nuts are 10mm … and the bracket holding the battery in place is 13mm.
Not to be a douche, but I’m going to have to rephrase something the author choked on.
Eric: “Batteries store electricity, which is then drained to power something – either the starter motor, as in a non-electric car or the electric motor that propels the car, if it’s an electric car. This discharges the battery.”
22winmag: “Batteries store ELECTROCHEMICAL ENERGY, which is DISCHARGED as electric current when a DRAW is applied to them by motors, lights, heaters, and other systems in the car.”
Shorter-better? Please critique.
Well, your point is, of course, technically correct, but going on about is douche-like. One comment is enough.
Hence my disclaimer and thanks.
Tracfone sent me a message that my 3g phone won’t work after November. Google sent me a message that they won’t update my older Chromebook soon. what a bunch of crap. I don’t know what a new Chromebook has on an older one? It’s very basic. I guess its time to find a cheap Linux based notebook. I don’t see much talk about how all these electric cars will be charged in the future. Our power grid is already strained as it is. Funny how casual the talk is about us all getting rid of our paid-for cars and trucks.
At least they sent you a message. They informed me when I ran out of minutes. Self-employed here and my phone number is my income. They did send me a free (refurbished/rubbish) smart phone with a different number so now I get all kinds of calls and texts…from people I don’t know. Gonna look into a Jitterbug. F… Tracfone.
I don’t even need a battery, I just park my 87 Dodge Ram on a hill. How sustainable is that?
I think these batteries work like the central bank, all you need are negative charging rates
…And just like a central bank, it’ll bleed the charge until finally it leaves the system dead.
The common sense in this article is quite refreshing. As it is marketed today, “sustainability” really isn’t.
Sadly, corporations now greedily seek to profit in a throwaway culture.
I miss affordable genuine leather footwear that a cobbler could repair and/or resole as needed. In fact, it seems cobblers, themselves, have gone the way of quality customer service, incandescent light bulbs, and the U.S Constitution.
Oh, how I often do still long for the old ways.
I think a good shoemaker could make some money. All the shoes now are China crap.
We are in my territory now!I have a 15 year flip phone with 2 apps,it makes and receives calls!
I love the old iron, find the old iron you like and rebuild/start with a good body/frame,drop in a motor and tranny and good to go,can do some for less then 10 grand rebuilt,a good deisel rabbit will chug forever.You could go my route,a 1977 e-100 body from van dropped on a 4×4 F-250 frame mid 70’s with a divorced transfer case/33″ tiers /lifted a bit ect.
The hell with a new car/build/rebuild the one you want!
I once had an 86(?) E150, straight 6 with a 3 on the tree…miss that old chuck wagon.
The right need to use the lefts tactics and pounce on those bog corps that are crushing freedom. Like Walmart refusing to sell ammo or guns but allow knives to be sold. Knives that anyone can get to while in the store. Next knife death we should all march on walmart. We should march on apple about how they nerf their old phones so we buy a new one and destroy the planet. How airlines allow people to take flights just to get points. They do round trips just for points. We should bring attention to their insane hypocrisy. . . Instead we all do nothing but act like agitated keyboard warriors. We should start a national movement on a specific day. Everyone that wants our constitutional right left alone march on their capitals. All on a specific day. That will let them know when they come and take it they better bring a lot…..
I’m going to build a submarine from a EV motor/tranny when I retire.
John Q. Public is not going to have to decide about when to replace a battery because he will not be allotted a vehicle. He may be able to summon a rideshare, or get on a bus, but he damn sure ain’t gonna own or have personal call on a vehicle.
It is not yet clear to me how the powers-that-be are going to pull it off, but the grand plan id to essentially retire the personally owned automobile fleet over the next 15-20 years, gas stations and all. Electric vehicles are not going to be widely available, it will be walking, bikes, or maybe rickshaws for the smart set.
When I hear the word “Sustainable”, I visualize throngs of Bolsheviks storming the Winter Palace.
It’s chemistry? Not quite – electrochemical degradation is more like it.
Your lead-acid (conventional) battery turns lead + sulfuric acid –> lead sulphate + electrons, reversibly. But thermodynamics has a role – as edge lead atoms become lead sulphate, they GROW – and displace themselves slightly from the elemental structure that pure lead has. When the displacement grows too large, they will break free – and fall to the bottom of the battery, forming a sludge. Thermodynamics forbids the displaced atoms from jumping back up to their former positions at the edge of the plate, so the plate continually becomes thinner. Eventually the plate and resistance becomes too energy-inefficient to charge – OR, the sludge builds up enough to reach the plates’ bottom edges, forming a SHORT. Time for a new battery, even though you COULD scrape up all the lead particles, melt them down and pour plates, and start over. The lead is not destroyed, just rendered inefficient by the charge / discharge thermodynamic “wear”.
A different mechanism destroys cell phone batteries. The Lithium-ion battery has shallow layers that are saturated with lithium salt, separated by other layers that do not. The electrolyte (“sulfuric acid” analog) can be any of a couple of solutions, saturating the spaces between. Lithium ions move back and forth with the charge – and over time, the salt reduces to lithium metal. This creates little tendrils of lithium metal which eventually bridge between the plates, and eventually short it out. Another variety of thermodynamic “wear”, such that the lithium metal (once formed) will not regenerate into the lithium salt it came from.
A great fortune awaits anyone who can defeat thermodynamic “wear”, in all its forms and manifestations. The Second Law, however, suggests it cannot be defeated.