I recently visited Eastern China and stayed for a week. It was a work trip and there is a strong possibility I will be back for a longer stay in the future. I wanted to share some my thoughts in a quasi-organized manner, I’m sure I will forget details and keep in mind my “evidence” is anecdotal from a very short stay, I may add further details at a later date if I remember them. Much thanks to my hosts, they could not have been nicer.
My thoughts/observations:
Driving/Roads
- Drivers here in the US could not handle driving there, at first it seems chaotic and hyper-aggressive but from the hours I spent being driven around I don’t think it is more dangerous even though they pass very closely and weave in and out of traffic.
- There is a lot of “honking” but it isn’t out of anger/aggression; horns are used to alert other drivers and others of their intentions.
- The roads (the limited ones I saw) were overall in better shape that roads here in the US. To be fair I live in PA so…
- Roads are being worked on and when I say that, I mean actually being worked on, everyone at the site is actually working unlike here in the US.
- Texting while driving is normal (not sure of its legality), even while driving an electric scooter. But it seems they are less distracted and more attentive than people who text while driving in the US.
- Many of the speed limits have multiple ratings for various vehicles. Most common was 3 levels, each with a picture of the class of vehicle. Cars=120kph, Large vans/small trucks=100, Large Trucks/18-wheelers=80kph. I’ve often argued for something like this here (more of a momentum limit) because my 4 door sedan can stop in a tiny fraction of what an 18-wheeler requires but for some reason we are limited to the same max speed. This makes an incredible amount of sense to me.
- Speed cameras are everywhere on the highway, regulars know where they are and constantly adjust their speed to accomadate/avoid tickets.
- It is common for people to not own cars or a family to only own 1. It is also common to see an entire family traveling by scooter.
- Highways are amost continuously lined with vegetation.
- Drunk driving is not tolerated, not only is ones license lost for years at a first infraction, often times jailtime is mandated as well.
Manufacturing/Economy
- There are definitely people here that are poor but I everything was much less 3rd worldy than I expected. There was a fair amount of robotics, the offices I visited were as nice as the offices here in the US.
- Strong work/life balance was present. Apple/Foxconn this is not. Overtime was/is rare and family life seems to be very important.
- That being said, flexibility for working hours was nil.
- Plants have a great deal of vertical integration (products and tooling designed in house as well as raw materials being delivered and fully fabricated into finished products).
- The level of manufacturing was what I envision the US was in the 60’s-70’s except without unions strangling them while being only marginally productive.
- Pollution/smog is definitely an issue, the cityscape was often difficult to make out at extended distances.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/mister2wrx/cityscape_zps8ddi4qny.jpg
- But outside of the absolute poorest areas the litter/garbage was sub-Philly level.
Food/Culture
- The food was “interesting”, the similarities between authentic Chinese food and americanized chinese food start and end with plain white rice.
- Likely out of necessity, just about every part of an animal is eaten, cow stomach, duck blood (used to basically make a brownish/red tofu), octopus tentacles etc. Sounds weird but in actuality the food by itself did not have strong tastes so it was almost entirely a mental exercise. I joked with my wife that now I was ready to own the gross food portion of the competition on Fear Factor, lol.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/mister2wrx/419f5752-f05f-4155-abcf-dca9f626ac45_zpsksuqyxtl.jpg
This was “hot pot”, basically the various pieces of food were cooked in spiced mixtures of boiling water/oils.
- You will not get away with not trying the food, they are incredibly insistent unless you say you are allergic.
- Food was often served in a shared setting.
- Alcohol was served at every dinner, their red and white wine is less wine and more hard alcohol (60-100 proof). The beer was actually pretty good.
- In some ways they are less strict socially. In an open dinner setting (dozen or so) one person asked a female co-worker of mine from the US when she was going to have children. This took her back a bit and it was explained as being too forward in this setting with people she just met.
- I saw no one that I would have identified as Muslim. I also suspect their propensities would not be tolerated in China for a single moment.
- The parks I visited were very nice, few people have property/yards so the parks are important.
Police
- I rarely saw police. Now think about that for a moment, I was in a communist republic and in a week the # of police officers I saw could be counted on a single hand (and most were tending to people in a car accident). The US has a much stronger regular police presence (from what I saw), how much of that is the crime/feral free-shitters and how much of it is revenue collection I don’t know for sure. I also do not know how many police are actually employed so many might be “hidden.” Do we live in more of a police state than China? It appears from limited and anecdotal evidence the argument could be made that under current circumstances it is less of a police state.
- Now one could take that the above statement was just a coincidence, but… at dinner one night I spoke about their speed limit signs for different vehicles. This discussion then evolved into police speed traps. I asked if police hid to catch speeders. This question absolutely baffled the man I was speaking with, he couldn’t comprehend why they would hide… (indeed).
- Shortly before I arrived there was an incident at the Shanghai Airport (story HERE). Their reactions and changes were similar to what I would expect in the US, mainly when I went to fly out there were inspections just to enter the airport itself from the drop-off zone.
General Observations
- The best way I can think of to describe China was that the people were very polite but intolerant (and I generally mean that as a compliment). They were almost always considerate and patient but you were expected to live by their rules and customs. For instance: I was “invited” to play badminton after work one day. I was “asked” but it was really just a formality; in reality I had zero choice.
- There was little diversity so their customs/traditions and laws were much less in jeopardy of not being respected, violated or changed.
- I spent 2-1/2 weeks in Germany about 4 years ago and enjoyed my time there. After seeing militant refugees piling up in the town square of Hannover (in front of the hotel where I stayed) I would not go back anytime soon. If I had to work overseas for an extended period of time and was given the choice between Germany and China, I would choose China at this time.
- I would also rather live in China that California (and likely a few other states within the US).
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/mister2wrx/455bd572-8893-4f5e-b8be-45618b5677f0_zpsvxy2q177.jpg
Some zen time with Buddha
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a201/mister2wrx/e6f424ac-6190-481b-a0e5-ee32f75bac91_zpswj0phlpe.jpg
Harry – thanks. The big issue I have with China is that there is little or no commercial law protection. Chinese corps can steal with impunity, violate international law systematically, and OHS laws are a joke. The playing field is not level, intentionally. They will devour all comers so long as they are allowed to be lawless. It is already too late.
llpoh,
agreed on the protection of intellectual property issue. just like most things, they do it because it is tolerated. i couldnt’ get my camera out in time but i actually saw a Land Rover Evoque clone called a “Land Rider”, that one made me chuckle.
i think the idea of the “rule of law” is mostly dead just about everywhere, just for different reasons in each case.
I had a couple phone meetings with one of my China co-workers this morning. I am amazed by his grasp of the English language given how different it is from his own. Our meetings this morning were at 8:30am and 9:00am EDT which equates to 8:30pm and 9:00pm China time. We regularly have meetings with the China team as late as 10:00am EDT or 10:00pm China time. People here would scream bloody murder if they had to have regular meetings that late, for the Chinese it just seems to be normal business.
My company prides itself on it’s “diversity”. Here in the US it seems like over half of the employees are originally from other countries. But in China all of the employees are Chinese, in India all of the employees are Indian, in France all of the employees are French, etc. So how is this corporate wide “diversity”? And why are they so concerned with “diversity”? Wouldn’t it be better for their business to hire the best people for the job instead of inflicting race/nationality quotas, especially since they only inflict the quotas in the US which skews the overall “diversity”?
Annie,
I experienced many people who could not speak English well but my statement that typically drew laughs was that they spoke and understood english better than I could speak and understand Mandarin.
Yes, the time difference could be tough. After seeing pics of the food and understanding that it was a 12 hr difference my son (4yo) started calling it Bizarroland because he rationalized it as the polar opposite, lol.
so true about the diversity aspect, it ultimately does not work on a large scale. my response to people thinking of Americans (particularly average whites) as “intolerant” is now cemented as:
“go fuck yourself, you don’t know what the word means and the levels of so-called ‘tolerance’ you seek do not exist anywhere in this world and never will. Fuck tolerance and fuck your safe spaces.”
Hmmmmmmmm. I talked to two relatives who went there. They said the food was awful,( dog, rat, etc…) and that the garbage and pollution was unbelievable. They said it smelt like shitte everywhere. One of them had to bring a special facemask with them so they wouldn’t get heavy metal contamination in the city they were visiting. Must have been a different China than the one you visited.
“Must have been a different China than the one you visited.”
Absolutely, just like Texas, California, South Carolina and New Jersey are quite different.
Food can be gross everywhere (i was taken to restaurants that had an atmosphere that was comparable to any nice restaurant you would find in the US) and China is kindof a big place… and like I said my exposure was limited.
the air pollution is horrendous, similar to pictures i’ve seen of LA, Pitsburgh etc decades ago. just not confident they will address it. and garbage/litter was localized where spent my time. definitely no worse than what i’ve seen in philly in person or in Admin’s classic 30 Blocks posts.
Shortly before I met her, Ms. Freud had a short 10 day vacation in China. Half of her luggage weight was food; protein bars, beef jerky, peanut butter, even water. She only had a few meals in the top-notch hotel she was staying in. Almost the entire group got sick at least once, some for almost the entire stay. But, not her. Heh. She said even looking at the food made he almost sick. Her overall impression? China is filthy, stinks, and is waaay to crowded (obviously). But, she loved The Great Wall, and some other sights … it’s not totally bad.
My plumber (a very erudite and sophisticated guy, as working people often are) went to eastern China in December. He said the air pollution was so bad one day that he could barely see across the street. He also said that only the Korean business people wore face masks. The Chinese didn’t bother.
i was told the pollution (in terms of visibility) is worse during fall/winter, they couldn’t give me a logical explanation as to why though.
harry
Try this link;
http://www.pollutionsolutions-online.com/news/air-clean-up/16/breaking_news/why_does_beijings_air_quality_get_worse_in_winter/37372/
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And, for a more general overview;
makes sense, thanks
I have visited China recently myself. I have seen a massive improvement in general politeness, cleanliness, efficiency from my first time there in 1993 (obviously). The entire society is transformed. The command economy allows them to respond quickly and effectively to outside threats. The population seems hard working, ambitious and driven. The individual serves the society and common good not the other way around. The government control over the population is evident and obvious unlike in the west were it is hidden and covert but more intrusive and insidious. They have come up a LONG way while the west has declined a LONG way. Unless the trend is stopped by reforming our society, we are done in the west.
Hey Latock, you a Bernie supporter? or just a troll for the new world order? China is a new world order wet dream. Heard about Chinese drywall problem in Florida? The Shitte is so polluted with toxins and mold that it all has to be ripped out of the houses that used it. Fuck China!
I do not think so. The Americans bought the drywall for cheap. Do not blame the Chinese for taking advantage of stupid people. Not everyone not blowing the horn of capitalism is a “Bernie supporter”.
You need to realize that the world is more nuanced than Berine vs Trump.
Fuck the police, food, roads. What was the pussy like?
Tastes great, but an hour later you want more.
Like the food, delicious but an hour later you want more 😉
Sorry Latok, didn’t mean to take you away from reading Mao’s little red book. I can see you’re not blowing the horn of capitalism, you’re blowing Mao’s dead cock. Go away you communist troll.
A neighbor’s kid was teaching English in China a year ago. Via Skype he was able to show his dad the “kitchen toilet”. Right next to the stove was a hole in the floor – which was the shitter. So you can stir what you’re cooking, drop trou, squat and pinch a loaf real quick. Much more efficient than here. See – with a command economy, you’re able to respond quickly and effectively.
Certain TBP readers (perhaps my impression only) as well as some Americans of white European ancestry have over time demonstrated an angst over the current state of sociocultural affairs in the United States and lament the dilution of what was once almost wholly a nation of men and women tracing their origins to Europe. Posts have often mentioned the lower IQ of certain nonwhite people, the far higher rates of crime, incarceration, births out of wedlock, welfare participation, school dropout rates, and other such pathologies.
Events outside America have evoked such thoughts not only from people in the US but also in Europe. The massive entry of Arab and North African migrants into Germany and Sweden, with sudden and dramatic increases in rates of sexual crime, has angered both Europeans and certain Americans – in the former, to the extent that PEGIDA and other such far-right groups have emerged.
In contrast, there are no such widespread imbalances in far east. China, the nation Harry visited, is a conglomeration of more than 50 ethnic groups, including some very distinct ones like the Tibetans and others with an actual independent nation-state (for Koreans, make it two!). Yet, China has a distinctive national identity. The variety of spoken dialects (Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghainese, to name only a few) notwithstanding, it is a testament to the overbearing and overreaching power of the state that the Chinese of today are highly nationalistic and very proud people, with a strong and unified national identity (again, allowing for regional/tribalistic traditions and customs).
The Japanese and Koreans are even more racially and culturally homogenous. Minorities have not fared well in Japan and in South Korea, although both countries have seen expatriate populations grow in the past 30 years or so. The various and strong similarities between these two countries – allegiance to family and country; an emphasis on network ties (school/university/hometown/region); strong nationalism; a conflation of nationality with citizenship and ethnicity; etc. – is ironic given these two neighboring rivals have a long history of bad blood.
All this is relevant to those in America and Europe who are examining and rethinking what it means to be an American/German/Swede/etc. What is it that qualifies one as ______? For the people of China, Japan, and Korea, despite globalization, the oftentimes exaggerated “worship of all things western” (entertainment, music, fashion, and physical beauty standards), and the intermarriage which has now become less of a stigma in these countries, cultural differences are outward manifestations of… racial differences. It is not without reason that Chinese, Japanese, and Korean immigrant communities in the United States, Canada, and South American countries have generally excelled in academics and generally been respected as productive members of society. The Chinese in Malaysia; the Japanese in Brazil; the Koreans in the United States… they brought over and maintained cultural mores from their homelands and even into younger generations who do not speak their grandparents’ languages, marriage with fellow members of their immigrant communities is quite normal if not outright standard. And they perpetuate the cultural mores inherited from their parents, even if the ancestral language is ultimately lost.
The Anglo-American ideal is no inferior to the culturally and racially uniform (and frankly, intolerant) model that these Asian nations developed. Great Britain and later the United States were superpowers, and there are plenty of reasons that both GB and the USA were/are rich countries whereas African or South American or Middle Eastern countries were not (historically). The American genius of very hard work, fair play, reward for one’s effort, rule of law, strong laws, moral responsibility, self-reliance, and honor made America the envy of the world.
But perhaps there is something to be learned from China and other far east countries in this day and age of cultural diversity, calls for “tolerance,” so-called privilege/oppression/grievance industries, ridiculous and hypocritical double-standards, and different people wanting to be treated differently. Perhaps these countries’ uniformity and the success they’ve enjoyed show that the west could learn a thing or two from them. After all, we’re seeing in 2016 America that multiculturalism isn’t an idealistic mosaic of different folks who “get along,” but rather, oftentimes a battle for one group insisting that its preferences be imposed upon another.
Perhaps this is one of the messages that Donald Trump supporters infer from his statements, whether or not he means them or plans to carry them out if elected. Perhaps their support of him is a yearning for an America of yesteryear when things were simpler, easier, and not as convoluted. Ask the Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans – they probably wouldn’t care much if accused of having built societies that are “China for the Chinese,” “Japan for the Japanese,” “Korea for the Koreans.”
Chronicler, you said a mouthful but it all comes down to immigration law by country. The US has practically an open border with Mexico–those other countries strictly enforce tough immigration practices.
Diversity via immigration (both illegal and legal) has accelerated the decline of the U.S.
Sounds like a wonderful place. Did you go to the dogmeat festival? Fuck china.
My wife was born and raised in China, and thoroughly despises the culture there. Some of the things she says:
The value placed on human life is very low. Kidnapping is common enough, though unreported, that she fears to just bring our kids into the country. Some of the kidnapped kids have their organs harvested for the black market, or are mutilated so they can earn money for their new owners by begging on the streets, or sold to other countries, or just sold to families who wanted a boy. Aborted fetuses are sold to make a soup that is believed to have healing properties. Do not offer assistance to someone who appears to have been injured in an accident on the street, as there is a fair chance that they are faking it, will blame you and sue you for it.
Lying is a cultural norm, and they feel no embarrassment about it. Do not believe anything a Chinese person tells you without supporting evidence. Do not trust any of the food there; for instance, there is a recycled cooking oil that is made from used oil collected from the street gutters, that can even wind up being used in five-star hotels. We regularly get requests from her friends to mail them American-made products, because they don’t trust Chinese-made products.
Government controls the information pretty thoroughly, many Internet sites are unreachable, and it is common to see a post that a person makes on the internet disappeared.
Nevertheless, she says that the average Chinese person is much smarter than the average American, and believes that they will be the dominant power.
The issues you describe, AnarchoPagan, are real. Take a huge country which was mostly peasant and therefore “country bumpkin-ish” (and which remains thusly in vast swaths), where rule of law wasn’t the norm, and people having to develop cunning and cleverness to survive, and these things aren’t shocking. I recently read a horrifying account of a woman whose boy disappeared and she suspects he was kidnapped.
Some have called China the Japan of the early 21st Century, but Japan’s economic and demographic woes notwithstanding, China is decades if not longer behind Japan overall in terms of civility and professionalism. Not that the Japanese are incapable of lying – they are historically masters of vague language. But they historically prize honor and to them, keeping promises and delivering on their word is serious business. They take pride in their work and are very detail-oriented. In comparison, the Chinese are sorely lacking. They are hardworking, tenacious, and individually very intelligent (as your wife said). I’d much rather deal with Japanese than Chinese businesses.
Eventually, one hopes, China will change; the wave of globalization, the pulling away from the countryside, the boom in large cities – the younger generation will hopefully grow up not only globalized but without the embarrassing ideas and behaviors of their elders. But until corruption is rooted out (and that corruption is manifested in the kidnapping of children and the difficulty in getting help), I agree with your wife. America may have problems of its own, but I believe in appreciating what we have at home even as we appreciate good things outside.