Given the size of TBP’s readership, it seems certain that a there are several hundred members who will be seeking new employment at any given time. The intention here is to provide a bit of insight into what employers are looking for in employees, in hope that that information will assist the members to land interviews, successfully negotiate the interview, and hold the job through the crucial first few months.
As an employer, I hire employees for one reason and one reason only – to help the company make money. I believe this to be a universal truth for all employers. I understand a great many people find this truth to be distasteful, and that some greater relationship, such as mutual loyalty, should exist between employer and employee. To them I say this: what you believe matters not – this is the way it is. Live with it, or do not. If you choose to not live with it, your lives will be harder and it will impinge upon a fruitful search for employment. So in your search for work, keep foremost in your minds at all times this thought – how can I show prospective/current employers that I will help them make money?
The Application
I do not wish to dwell on this area, but will only try to provide some generic advice on what I look for when sifting through job applications.
– I look for a cover letter specific to me and my organization, and do not wish to see a form letter.
– I look for a resume that is appropriate to the position. In other words, I do not want to see a five page resume when the person is applying for a machine operator’s position. Limit the resume to no more than two pages no matter what position is being applied for. Also, get it professionally done, no typos, and printed on quality paper (I recommend something other than plain white so that it stands out).
– I do not want to see that the person has job-hopped. If you have, try to devise a means of obscuring and/or explaining this. I also do not want to see a huge list, or any list, of personal interests. It will not be a positive, and will possibly be a negative if it leaves me with the idea that you partake in dangerous activities or so many activities that they may interfere in your work.
– I want to see what skills you have, and I want to know what you have accomplished. What you were responsible for is of lesser interest to me. A lot of people are responsible for many things, but accomplish little.
– I want to see that you can help me make money.
The Interview
Following is what I want in an employee, and these are the things that the applicant needs to address during the interview:
– I want an employee that comes to work. This is the single most important thing. I repeat, this is the single most important thing. Everything else runs a distant second. You need to get the fact that you will come to work into your application. In 40 years of work I have missed the following days of work: 5 days with pneumonia, 3 days with hernia surgery, 1 day with shoulder surgery, 1 day with a temperature of 104, 2 days with food poisoning. I have no time for people that miss lots of work – especially if they miss lots of single days. Miss a week with pneumonia or surgery – fine. Miss ten days a year one day at a time? Take that crap somewhere else. Some people think that this is harsh. I do not care – not one single whit. Come to work, or get lost. My company averages less than 1.5% absenteeism, and always has. That is three days per year per person, and includes long-term illnesses. As a result, I am able to very accurately plan and schedule my business, which helps me make money and compete in a world market. (There is that thing again – money.)
If a new employee misses a day of work in the first month, I raise an eyebrow and keep an eye on what is going on. If they miss 2 days the first month, it is unlikely they will maintain their employment.
– I am not recruiting for superstars. Superstars are too rare to recruit for. I am recruiting for hard-working individuals that come to work, bring a varied skill-set, and are willing to learn. I do not want to hear that a person can do everything – it is almost always bullshit. I do not want to hear that they are quick learners. Everyone says they are a quick learner. No one is ever a quick learner. I want someone who says they will come to work every day and who says that they are willing to learn and that they will keep at it no matter how long it takes. Funny enough, it is these folks that turn into superstars. People that apply and try to sell themselves as superstars invariably overstate their cases. Sometimes they fool me, and I put these folks in jobs where I find out that they are in fact not qualified. That costs me money. That is a bad thing.
– I do not want job hoppers. If I see that a person has held 5 jobs in the last ten years, they need to explain this in detail, and to convince me that this is not going to continue. This may be hard to do. But the best way would include an explanation that they were young, immature, and have reached a point in their lives that they understand the need to be stable. I spend a lot of time and money training and recruiting new employees. I do not want to see that money wasted.
– I want employees that treat the job and business like it is their own. That is to say, they do not waste money or resources, they treat equipment with care, they produce a quality product every time, etc. I want employees that do not waste time. Every minute an employee wastes cost me approximately $1. Really. Say I have 130 employees and they all waste 10 minutes a day (I am sure it is far, far more than that) that is $1300 dollars per day wasted. Or about $300,000 per year wasted. Of my money. I can stroke out just thinking about it. So I want to hear that potential employees will not waste time, and that they will care for the business as though it is their own. So in an interview say exactly that – “I will not waste time and I will take care of your business just like it is my own”. See how fast you get hired.
– I want employees that fix their own problems. I do not want employees that bring me a never ending stream of problems they have identified. Most issues are not rocket science, and the employee can fix the problem themselves. And I do not want employees coming to me every time they have fixed a problem to crow about it. Blow your own horn, but do it infrequently. I am not blind – I can see. Let your prospective employer know you are this type person. It saves them money.
– I do not want anyone that is a pain in the ass. I want people who treat others with respect. I do not want people who are complaining all the time. I have enough trouble running a business, and do not want to be a babysitter too. It wastes my time and costs me money.
– There are two areas that every employee has absolute authority over –safety and quality. Employees are empowered to shut down any operation that is unsafe or which is spitting out bad quality. I want employees that understand that this is the case – that they are not helping me if they allow unsafe practices to continue or allow bad product to get out the door. Bad quality costs me money, as do any injuries – and injuries can even get me in severe legal trouble. I want people to keep me out of trouble.
– In interviews, I am always concerned if the applicant focuses too much on working hours/vacation days/sick leave provisions/etc. Perhaps it is all reasonable to ask, but it worries me nevertheless.
This list isn’t comprehensive, but it covers the basics. As is evident, it all comes down to money – helping the employer make it and save it. Applicants that show that they are focused on this will be successful. It will overcome a vast array of other deficiencies. For instance, I employ several ex-cons, people with learning disabilities or poor educational skills, ex-drug addicts, etc. etc. etc. For the most part, I do not care about that stuff – I care about whether they help me make money. In many cases I take a chance on people if I think they can help me make money. When I take a chance, I know that the odds are that I will not be successful – for instance, drug addicts relapse. But then again all new hires are something of a crap-shoot.
Here are some examples of how applicant have shot themselves in the foot, and lost the opportunity of a job, or have lost the job themselves:
– In an interview, the applicant told me that they couldn’t work past 3 on Friday, as he played golf then. He was stunned when I showed him the door immediately.
– A receptionist called in sick with a migraine on her first day of work. I advised her there would be no second day. She couldn’t understand it.
– A young man missed 3 days in the first month of work. When I spoke to him about it, he asked me what my problem was as “it is only 3 days in a whole month”. I showed him the door on the spot. The young man’s father showed up to threaten me for mistreating his 23 year old son. That didn’t go well.
– A painter with “10 years’ experience” baked 2 high value spray guns in 2 days. Baking the gun cooks the paint inside the gun and destroys it. Adios, amigo.
– A new hire clocked out without notifying anyone at 9 and came back at 1:30. When asked what that was about he said he had things to do. See you later.
– A new hire was leaping off the top of a dumpster onto his ass inside the dumpster “to compact it”. Do not pass go on the way out.
– A new hire emptied the trash out of his car (lunch bags/ashtray/newspapers/etc.) onto the ground in the employee parking lot. He thought that was fine. I didn’t.
– A new hire started a fire in an employee restroom as a joke. I laughed and laughed.
So, in summary, job applicants need to keep in mind exactly what the employer wants, and needs to convince the employer that he/she will deliver the goods. The employer wants someone to help make him/her money, and who will not be a pain in the ass. It really is that simple.
I hope that this is some help to those looking for new employment. I also hope that those many members with great experience can add and augment to this post. I know that many believe that the world should be a kinder, gentler place. Perhaps that is correct. But it doesn’t help today’s job applicant, who must live in the current reality.
Sorry about that. My internet connection at the shore sucks. It keeps timing out and fucking up the posts.
The connection has kept me from posting my usual number of daily posts.
I think I’ll just grab another Corona and head out on the deck.
Sure – blame it on the ‘net. Couldn’t have anything to do with the other Coronas? Many thanks!
“In an interview, the applicant told me that they couldn’t work past 3 on Friday, as he played golf then. ” — llpoh
Just curious. Was that applicant named, sss ??
From a practical viewpoint here on TBP, this HAS to be a TOP THREE post.
FWIW, I can’t disagree with a single thing written here. And in many cases I say, “Hell yes!!”
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Great job, llpoh. I’ll probably make more comments tomorrow. Ms Freud is having coffee with a friend and will be back any moment. I’ve been on the computer all day. I BETTER be off when she comes home. Otherwise, I will be interviewing for another lady. And I’m not very good at that. I guess asking, “Do you give good head?”, on the first date is a no-no.
Thanks, forwarding to my college kids.
EF
llpoh
Your story is dead on. I have never been an employer, but I know how to be a good employee. I know how to write a great resume and I’m an excellent interviewer. What you look for in an employee is how I present myself.
Resume of two pages.
Resume briefly gives duties and then 80% of it is bullet points of dollars saved or created from my initiatives.
No personal bullshit.
Cover letter should always be adapted to the employer you are approaching.
The keys to an interview is enthusiasm, ability to make a connection with the interviewer, smile, firm handshake, and good manners.
But the single biggest thing in an interview is the ability to listen and ask the right questions. Don’t keep babbling about how great you are. Find out what the employer is really looking for and then give specific examples from your previous employment that match what the employer is looking for. Most people are too nervous to just listen during the interview.
Never ever ask about salary, benefits or vacation during the 1st interview. You are selling yourself to them. The salary negotiation can take place later.
No sick days in the 1st six months unless you are dying. Come in early and stay late.
Your number one priority as an employee is to make your boss look good. In most cases, that means helping increase the profits of your organization.
LLPOH
Your expectations of employees is dead on. Your examples of morons not getting it are hysterical.
llpoh…. publish this one as a pamphlet to hand out to job seekers, it’ll save you time and effort and might save a few of them — No, take a little more time and expand on it and publish it. Stick it on Amazon’s e-book list or createspace or better yet, make it into a small book to include why you shouldn’t wear cutoffs to interviews, learn to spell and not spit on the factory floor or pee down your leg and self-publish — then put it on Amazon for sale.
Colma is sure to comment on this one..
MA
Admin – great tips. Really spot on re the interview. People crap in their own nests when they need not. They need to be finding out what the employer wants, and promising to give it to them. And promising in such a way as they do not over sell their skills, but rather sell their intent – “I intend to do a good job no matter thow difficult or how inexperienced I mught be at the beginning”. It is really important.
LLPOH
Thanks for the informative list. I will keep this wisdom in mind when I own my business one day.
Here is a generic story that highlights that most employees really do not understand small business.
On many occassions I have had employees, especially ones that just start work and have been unemployed for a while, that have money trouble. They come to me for a short term loan/advance so that they can buy gas, lunch, whatever, and usually ask for $50 or $100 to help them out.
I reach into my wallet and present the cash. At least 2 out of 3 times their response goes something like “no, no, not from you, from the company”. They have no understanding whatsoever that every dollar, every cent, every nut, bolt, piece of metal or roll of toilet paper or lost minute of time is mine or is paid for by me. Somehow they cannot make the connection between the company and me.
So to all prospective employees of small businesses, or any business for that matter, I encourage you to make the conection. It is there, it is tangible, and the employer feels it keenly to the heart of his or her very soul.
LLPOH
How long until RE arrives to shit all over this thread?
Admin – I must say, to his credit, that he has never shit on one of my articles. I do not always understand his code, and disagree with it almost universally, but he does seem to have one. He is pretty miffed, tho, so who knows. Man, I love Coronas. A bit of lime on top, with a nice taco or two.
I sincerely hope this thread gets 300+ responses.
I would LOVE to hear from others what has “worked” for them in their interviews … or, even what didn’t work. Even if it’s repeating something llpoh has written above, that’s OK! Repetition is great confirmation.
I’ll start.
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This doesn’t have anything to do with the actual interview process. It has to do with GETTING the interview.
Even small employers get hundreds of resume’s. Large employers get hundreds of thousands. Of course, the main question becomes, “How do I stand out from ll the rest?”
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Here’s what I did. In summary, I SENT SAMPLES of my work.
When I applied for programming jobs, in addition to my 2-page resume (never make it longer), I would send along samples of code I wrote. That’s right … I’d send that big old computer printout in a big envelope. In essence my cover letter stated, “You want a programmer? OK, HERE is my work. Interview me if you want this type of quality.”
When I intervied for Systems Analyst positions, I’d send the whole 3-ring binder — complete with written specs, flowcharts, file layout, etc. (Of course not to EVERY employer … just to the ones where I really wanted to work.)
When I interviewed for sales I’d send copies of my written proposals.
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Now, I’ll bet many books and maybe even most headhunters would be stunned with such tactics. I’m sure they would say, “Too much, too soon!!” or, “You’re appearing desperate!!”, or all kinds of other things.
Here’s my response. BULLSHIT. Why? Because it worked!! Every time. How many sales people actually send copies of their proposals to employers? None. They’d rather bullshit endlessly how they “helped grow company profits 152%” or some other unverifiable horseshit. But there is no denying actual work product.
I’m sure there were some employers who said, “WTF”, and discarded my submission. Big deal. The ones that did hire me said my resume/presentation was totally unique and it got my foor in the door. And that’s ALL I wanted … just the chance to have them get to knopw me as a person, not a fuckin piece of paper.
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Lastly, for large companies I would send a copy of the package directly to the hiring manager in a FED-EX package. People ALWAYS open FedEx packages. When I applied at Hewlett Packard I had to go through Human Resources in Palo Alto. I lived in Indiana. Jeez, that’s bullshit, I thought. So, I was able to find out who the hiring manager was in Indianapolis. I sent him my stuff. The folks at Palo Alto ONLY contacted me AFTER they heard from the Indy manager. In fact, they already discarded my resume. LOL LOL Did I piss off the folks in Palo Alto? You bet!! But the guy in Indy wanted me … and he fought FOR me … and yes, I got the job.
Moral: don’t let the system swallow you and spit you out. Fuck the system!! Beat the system!! It’s not that hard with a little creativity and persistence and … No Fear!
Stuck – people have to work at getting a job as hard as they work at the job itself. Be creative – somehow you have to show what you can do. Yours are good examples. When hiring a machinist, I would love to get a sample of some intricately turned and machined component. Boy, would that guy get interviewed. Nice thinking. Very nice.
Interviewing is a skill. Some say it’s an art.
Unfortunately, to many employers don’t have a damn clue HOW to interview.
This question is a dead give-away for such a person; “So, Stucky, tell me about yourself.”
Jeezus H Christ. What a stupid question!! That’s all you got? That’s your ‘preparation”? That’s all your two brain cells could muster up to ask me?
I was at an interview when the guy asked me that right off the bat (after the small talk bullshit). I already new that I didn’t want to work there as soon as I walked in the door. The place was a pig sty. It actually smelled. The bossman looked like a pervert. So, he asks me the question.
So, I told him. I started with my being born. In Austria. Talked about why we came to America. Told him about grammar school. Told him how my dad insisted I learn how to play the accordion. Told him I got cut from the soccer team. I got all the way to my time in the Air Force before he finally cut me off … about 10 loooong minutes later. Not kidding. I said, “Well, I don’t think I can work at a place where I am interrupted.”, picked up my briefcase, and scooted.
Yea, I’m an asshole. But my mom still loves me. So does Ms Freud and she just walked in. See y’all tomorrow.
great article, and excellent comments.
many bosses would benefit by reading this. many bosses don’t understand what they want and need in an employee–especially doctors who are bosses. so many i have known would choke on the idea of your universal truth.
LLPOH
I’m going to assume the interview process varies depending on the position needed. I’m a young lad so I have a lot to learn and experience. I’ve been fortunate to land jobs quickly and create opportunities. My advice may be flawed but I’ve noticed that if one can learn how to effectively communicate and build relationships, opportunities will come their way. Connecting with people effectively will help expand your network. In this current economy, who you know will increase the chances of getting an interview and landing a job. With an abundant supply of people looking for a job and a small demand for them, your connections will put you ahead of the herd. In the small business world, this is even more effective. I don’t have much experience so I’m just giving my opinion on what I think is most effective in this current environment in regard to landing a job.
LLPOH,
GREAT article! I’m printing it out to show our CURRENT employees that what we expect is not as unusual as they think.
Thank you.
LLPOH,
“A new hire was leaping off the top of a dumpster onto his ass inside the dumpster “to compact it”. Do not pass go on the way out.”
Yeah well you were just worried that if you kept this “dedicated problem solver” around he would be forcing a leveraged buyout in 15 years.
Otherwise, as a 21 year seasonal cropduster and 9 years in alaska as a pilot /mechanic, I understand turnover…and agree with your every other point. Admin’s addendum also.
douche
Stuck – good for you. You saved everyone a lot of time and trouble They wasted yours, tho.
Efarmer – my son works here during summers and Christmas, etc. Boy, young folks have a lot to learn Good luck.
Howard – you made me laugh with your “choke” comment. A lot of people think profit is a dirty word. Doctors may be able to take the high ground, but any small businessman knows the truth of it – make a profit or lose everything. All the feel good bullshit in the world doesn’t change that reality.
Jmarz – we hire a lot of family/friends of employees – if the employee is reliable him or herself. Each employee is stand alone and lives or dies on their own merits. We do encourage the referee to work with the new hire so as to make sure they know what the expectations are. Generally it works pretty well, but not always. Networking is a great way to find work.
CI – very funny. You crack me up. Yep, that Einstein was management material, for sure.
An excellent article.I love all the glad-handling by our seemingly successful people who already have jobs. I also loved all the stories about the stupid fuckheads who quickly lost their jobs, especially the one where the idiot’s dad showed up.
It seems to me kids nowadays have an attitude. They are so self important, have facebook friends, tweeting, and therefore a massive amount of people that cosign their bullshit. Facebook has created more egomaniacs than anything in recent history. I don’t know if spoiled is the right word, but it comes close. Mommy and daddy have given them everything, so why shouldn’t you (as an employer)? I don’t envy you at all. Keep those stories coming, it reinforces my bad attitude about the younger crowd.
Thanks Newjunkie. I do not understand why so many employees do not understand the basic relationship – they provide a VALUABLE service and the business provides wages and benefits. It is essentially a very simple contract. Somehow, all to frequently, the wages and benefits seems to become an absolute right and obligation, but the valuable service often becomes an option at the discretion of the employee. Try telling them that well, I didn’t pay you this week because I was sick and had something better to do. That will go over real well.
Great post, llpoh. I would agree with pretty much everything. When I worked in the mining exploration business, I did a little hiring & firing, but I was pretty green at the time (and frankly, over my head some of the time). But I treated my job the way you want your employees to treat theirs, which is how I got in the position of hiring & firing in the first place. Without realising it at the time, I suppose I was looking for most of the characteristics you described. But I also knew I had a fall-back position-I was generally hiring for project-specific jobs, a few weeks or months at a time. I always had the option of not bringing someone back, or canning them if things went too badly.
I’ve been in state gov’t for the last 10 years, and things are a little different than you outlined, particularly in 2 areas: 1) The folks doing the hiring are not directly financially responsible for “the company”. Your personal loan example is perfect for a private company, obviously that would not happen in a gov’t job. The folks doing the hiring are as likely to be quasi-politicians as responsible managers. Still, the underlying point is that they want to hire people that will get the job done, preferably in an efficient and timely manner. 2) It takes an act of Congress to fire someone in the gov’t, no matter how big a POS they might be. So when you hire someone, it may be effectively a 30 year commitment to the agency. Fucking up and hiring a zero has long-term consequences. consequences.
Awholedr – as I mentioned, my son works in the business (as an operator) when not at school. Every week or so I sit him down and discuss what he has learned and what he is doing. It is amazing the slant he picks up from employees. When I explain reality to him he quickly understands what is going on, but without my input he would quickly lose touch with the reality of running a business and would assume the mindset of an employee. Young folks are accustomed to being coddled, and they seek and demand attaboys at every turn. It is quite infuriating. They need to look elsewhere because I am not here to stroke their egos.
Good for you. I don’t know if you ever read Bill Gates commencement speech. It was a no bullshit assessment of what it takes to get ahead. It’s good stuff, even if you don’t like BG.
“the wages and benefits seems to become an absolute right and obligation, but the valuable service often becomes an option at the discretion of the employee”
The jist of your article in one sentence. That pretty much says it all. Where I live, so many people are on Welfare, those that do work think they should be rewarded for presenting themselves at work every day. Actually having to do some work is an insult. Half the people they know don’t have to work, so they are special since they actually do work. As I said, spoiled, by mommy and daddy, or uncle Obama.
AKA – this is from private enteprise POV. I have no clue about how govt hires, and always would have thought it was scattergun at best. Glad to hear there is some effort at getting the right people. But my experience is that even with good intention and thorough background checks, etc., that I miss at least 2/3rds of the time. I therefore expect the public sector to have an inordinately high number of poor employees. Glad they get good folks such as you.
AKA and LLPOH:
You can get a government job if you have a pulse. You can’t be fired, You get automatic raises, full benefits, pensions, retire as early as 50, and there is never any incentive to work harder or perform. The only incentive they have is to increase the size of their department, increase funding, and jump up pay-grades. It’s communism in it’s pure and natural form. My uncle is a government employee. He gets 6 1/2 weeks vacation, can come and go as he pleases, and if anyone complains, they can call his union representative. I simultaneously envy and hate him at the same time. As you said, your in private enterprise. If the government was a private enterprise, it would have gone bankrupt sometime in the last century. Ah, but they have taxes and deficit spending. As we’ve already discussed, our biggest enemy, as a private business, is the government.
I’d like to think I’m one of the good ones, but I must confess, (almost) everyone gets soft working for the gub’mint, and I don’t think I’d be worth a shit to my former boss anymore. I’ve told him as much. But you are correct, we do have a lot of zeros. The employer of last result, and short of assaulting another employee or getting caught watching porn on gov’t computers, you can’t be fired. And the Peter principle is very much at work. No wonder the gov’t fucks up everything they touch, no matter how well intentioned (which is questionable too).
LLPOH,
Can’t you see someone busting there ass for the company when it is right before your self described eyes? Where is the love?
AwholeDr-getting a gov’t job ain’t as easy as it once was. Since ’08, we have been getting lots more applicants for each opening, many much better qualified (at least on paper) than we used to get. I have joked that I’m glad I came to the state when I did, ’cause I couldn’t compete with the current applicants. ‘Cept I’m not really joking-my first gov’t boss took a chance hiring me with little experience in highway design and not having a CE degree.
Other than that, I agree 100%.
Here are a couple more stupid employee stories:
A senior tradesman wanted to move a $15,000 milling machine. He grought the forklift over and attached the chain to pick it up to put it on the truck. The maintenance guy said, whoa, there, that chain isn’t rated and may not hold – hang on for 5 minutes and I will get you the right rated chain. Off he went for the chain. The tradesman decided he knew better, and proceded to lift the machine with the unrated chain. Of course, the chain broke, and he dropped the machine from about 5 feet up, destroying it. I heard about it and came running, as I was out $15k of my own money. I pulled the tradedsman aside and asked what on earth happened. He simply shrugged his shoulders and said “shit happens”. This was a 55 year old senior tradesman. I turned purple and fired him on the spot. I was prepared to let him off with a good warning, and expected he would say something like “sorry, I made a bad decision.” Nope – shit happens. Well, he can make it happen to some other employer.
Another time, an operator couldn’t get the spindle loose on a special turning machine. The supervisor sent for the maintenance crew to fix the problem. The Einstein operator, for a reason known only to himself, decided he couldn’t wait for maintenance, and decided that taking a blowtorch (I fucking kid you not) to the spindle would loosen it, so that is what he did. He so warped the machine that it was irreparable, at a cost to me of a few thousand. You can guess the rest.
Another time a fellow was outside cleaning some parts in acetone. We have a no smoking site. But this particular Einstein thought that because he was outside and obscured from site that he would smoke anyway, despite being arm deep in acetone. He was wearing cloth gloves – another safety violation – when he lit up. Well, the ignoramus lit his habds on fire and was soon running through the plant like the goddamn Human Torch (flame on!) squeeling like a pig. We got him extinguished very quickly, and the gloves protected him so he only had first degree burns to his hands.
There are many, many more stories.
See there you go.
“I pulled the tradedsman aside and asked what on earth happened. He simply shrugged his shoulders and said “shit happens”. This was a 55 year old senior tradesman. I turned purple and fired him on the spot”
CI – yep, there is nothing like someone costing you $15k personally through shear stupidity and then shrugging and saying shit happens to make your day all warm and happy. So long as it isn’t their money, they couldn’t give a proper shit.
AKA:
“Since ’08, we have been getting lots more applicants for each opening, many much better qualified (at least on paper) than we used to get”
The “better qualified applicants” will not get government jobs where they run the risk of making their boss look like an idiot or actually doing something productive. I think all the under-qualified and ignorant people (AKA not included) don’t have much to worry about.
No offense, but what type of person would try to get a government job? REALLY, come on, you can’t ever make a million (unless you embezzle), you can’t ever become famous (unless you embezzle), and you can’t ever have pride in what you do, since you are working toward the destruction of our great country (especially if you embezzle). If all else fails, at least you can work for the government.
“It is amazing the slant he picks up from employees. When I explain reality to him he quickly understands what is going on, but without my input he would quickly lose touch with the reality of running a business and would assume the mindset of an employee.”
The ‘slant’? ‘Mindset’? Teach your son whatever reality you wish. It is clear that money is the primary if not sole motivation and human beings are merely means to a end, the end being ever more money. Sorry, I will never accept this as a viable philosophy that doesn’t lead directly to hell. Can’t do it. If that means I’m unemployable, fine. No offense intended, but I can’t recall having disagreed with anything more strongly than the views expressed here on this subject, except perhaps unconstitutional invasions and DHS in general.
This isn’t a site I think I can be associated with anymore if the opinions expressed in the article above and the comments overwhelmingly in support are indicative of the ‘slant’ and ‘mindset’ one must disavow to be an acceptable employee in modern business. If that is the case, then modern business absolutely needs to be utterly burned to the ground. I’m fine with never being successful or even ’employable’ if it would mean I must discard my dignity and become anyone else’s disposable property ever again. Call it what you will, it’s an eloquently veiled description of slavery in my view. That’s what modern business wants – a return to slavery. Instead of chains and whips, now it uses globalisation and debt. Same difference. Same results. And it will meet the same end.
LLPOH:
Just curious, do you give employees paid vacation time?
Generally, I’m of the opinion that vacation time shouldn’t be used or used very sparingly in the first 6 months of a job. I look at the 1.25 days a month I get as some sort of quasi-government employee a little askance. How do I use 15 days off a year?
Of course, all of my closest male role models (my dad, his brother, and my grandpa) all own(ed) their own small businesses, and none of them took much time off. My dad takes maybe 5 days off total a year, and probably has never taken a sick day except for surgery. And especially after I was driving age, I was expected to be working or going to school as a kid. Although I probably didn’t have to work as hard as my grandpa made my dad and uncle work, since my grandpa had a farm in addition to his business. Since he worked 12+ hours a day, my dad and uncle picked up most of the outside chores until he got home to help and my aunt surely must have helped with the house.
I often wonder, if I am to have kids, will I be able to instill in them any sort of work ethic? Are school work and basic around the house chores enough to really instill a good appreciation of work ethic?
AwholeDr-I work for a state Dep’t of Transportation-I can’t speak for other agencies. I may be naive, but I think a lot of us at ADOT&PF are actually trying to improve our infrastructure. Yes, we piss away more money than you can shake a stick at, mostly Federal dollars, and mostly (IMO) trying to comply with Federal regulations. That said, we flat out waste a lot of money too. Still, some are trying to accomplish something-we do get a lot of projects built. Admittedly, many are just looking for a free ride.
Nope, you can’t (honestly) get rich, but as you noted earlier, the pay can be decent, especially for registered engineers, the bennies are good, and the hours/leave time is ridiculously generous. The problem is that there is no incentive to perform-those who do do it out a sense of work ethic or personal gratification, as there is little to no mechanism to reward performance, and little disincentive to punish the deadwood.
My story was trying to provide better stability and health coverage for my family than the mining industry (notoriously boom/bust) could offer without having to relocate or work out of town. I took a pretty drastic pay-cut to start, but now make a lot more than I gave up. In 10 years, I have more than doubled my starting salary, partly through the guaranteed pay raises you mentioned, but mostly through strategic promotions. I won’t get rich, but I do OK, better than many, and AK’s economy is in a lot better shape than most states. I expect to get some advance notice before the axeman comes by watching the Lower 48 (WI?).
Ecliptix – I am sincerley glad to see you back. Truly.
This is only reality. You may believe whatever you wish, but it is in fact how private enterprise operates. Private business must run a profit. Otherwise they cannot exist. And world-wide competition makes it even more critical that businesses are run efficiently. Private business exists for one reason and one reason only – to turn a profit for their owners. The employer/employee arrangement is purely and simply commerce – services are traded for money.
I would be happy to hear your alternative. I simply am not aware of any that work, and there is no use sugar-coating the realities of the capitalist world. Companies exist to make money, and employees are hired in order to facilitate that end.
When I terminate an employee it is always – without exception – because they are not helping me to make money, or they have breached their contract/duty of care with me. We have an agreement – I pay them, and they provide me services I find valuable. It is not slavery. I have never missed a payroll, and I have always paid whatever I have agreed to pay. The reverse is frequently not true.
I hope you stick around. Again, I do not know what you propose as an alternative, but what I have posted is what I know to be true and real. It is not hypothetical, nor is it philosophical – it is the way things actually are. People can deal with it as is, or they can fight it. I think the best way of fighting it would be to be a one-person company, and work for one’s self. That has its own problems, and it can be a very uncertain world as well.
lloph,
you must know for sure by now that this is a two way street.
again, I understand the challenges of employerhood.
I myself have often bean a shitty employee, and equaly a shitty employer.
It’s kinda like marriage,
Often it just doesn’t work.
I am going to go overboard and ask you to sit down and reunmerate (in excruciating detail)
your most memorable encounter, whichever side of the fence
I think I might just win a Pulitzer for suggestioning this.
Iowan – yes, we do provide vacation time and paid sick leave. We encourage all employees to take their vacation. You can instill a work ethic in your kids – and I am sure you will do fine. You have a solid base of experience to build on. But it takes time for things to soak in. You will need some patience. Sounds like you come from a great background! Household chores, etc. are great, but I think role model is the best answer.
Ivan – I have been a shitty employee once or twice myself. I was young, and stupid. I have seen some really shitty managers, and I was a pretty bad manager when I was younger. You can’t beat experience. I will try to think about my most memorable experience and get back to you.
Couple of questions.
First, regarding job-hopping: You claim this is anyone who has held five jobs within the last ten years. So, on average, 2 years per job is considered job-hopping. 2 years per job is actually what you would want to look for in people who have built their experience working for big companies. The learning curve levels out at that point, so anyone who stayed at an organization longer than that is a “lifer” who is content to learn nothing new, continue to perform the same task day after day, and who is focusing on bringing home a steady paycheck – not, as you put it, “helping you make money.” From an employee’s perspective, unless you are already 60 years old, it is sheer lunacy to stick around that long, because the company will lay you off after ten years when you become overpaid.
Second, you want someone to come to work. I think most people want to come to work, but you need to give them enough responsibility to keep them busy. Not tasks, mind you, where they are delegated the grunt-work of someone else’s job, but making them responsible for the end result. Having actual responsibility makes people so terrified of screwing up that they will spend all their time at work. Delegating them mere tasks, where they sit around waiting for their higher-up to find something for them to do, will make them surf the net and watch the clock until it is time to leave. Don’t put micromanagers in management positions.
One more: Printed on quality paper? You must be joking. You don’t do any recruiting online? Save a tree, you old fart!
Oh, and a clarification regarding job-hopping. If you can get into a big company that is growing, you can stay at the same place a long time and not run into the lifer rut if you change jobs within the company. The longest I ever stayed at a single employer was 7-8 years, but I had three different positions within that time. That company was growing at the time, but I don’t see too many companies doing that these days. None of the companies where I have worked since then are addint new positions, just contract help to get the work done.
“- In interviews, I am always concerned if the applicant focuses too much on working hours/vacation days/sick leave provisions/etc. Perhaps it is all reasonable to ask, but it worries me nevertheless.”
I understand this comment, but keep in mind that it is a two-way street. No one works for you, they work for themselves otherwise they would be your servants. Good post though. I’m sure there are more than a few potential hires who would benefit from this.
PJ – re job hopping, it is my opinion only. It is, I think, the opinion of many potential employers. My employees have average tenure of eight plus years. Your logic may be impecable but it doesn’t change the reality that potential employers do not like job hoppers.
Re giving them fulfilling work – for the most part I do not have work other than operator work. It pays ok. It is what I have. Their choice to do it or not. Part of the requirement is to come to work.
KS – as mentioned we want all employees taking vacation time. I simply am wary of folks that are inordinately interested in time off. Experience. Shows they may not be serious workers.
It’s too bad you aren’t Michigan-based. I like working in no bs-zones and not having to put up with extraneous nonsense. Micromanagement breeds a sort of perpetual adolescence in people that makes them less likely to just get things done. Employers who carry too many non-performers operate the HR version of Gresham’s law – bad workers drive out good.
-ssgconway
P.S. I worked in a steel warehouse 20+ years ago at night while in college I got stitched the second day on the job, as my ‘trainer’ put his lunch up his nose. I was back the next day – I had a family to feed.
So much to say! I’ll have to break it up in several posts. I was hosting a bbq yesterday and will again today, so I hope this doesn’t get too far down the list:
For one, the showing up every day is of prime importance. I don’t call in sick… I did once but I knew the day wasn’t busy and I didn’t know which end to put on the toilet (NEVER order chile colorado from a taco truck)! I didn’t gain my trait of reliability to please the boss. In my line of work, not showing up fucks your co-workers. Alas… over the years, the bossman has expressed his pleasure at this trait, not to me (no attaboys from him) but to landlords, etc. When I apply for rentals. It’s just a good trait to have…
Especially when someone says “Hey Colma, don’t you think a twelve pack on a tuesday’s a bit much” and I reply “How many days of work have you missed this month, shitbag?”…
PJ-re job-hopping, you make some good points, but it depends. In some industries, 2 years might be a long time. And I imagine it depends on your location and economic environment. For sure it depends on where you are in your career. llpoh is looking for long-term employees, and long-term service is a good indicator of that. He also gave some acceptable explanations for shorter service.
My first job out of college as an engineer was for a small but shady mining company. I got some great experience, got to do things in a year and a half that would have taken a career at a big company, but once I realised the outfit’s reputation, I decided to bug out before 2 years came up. The same outfit had employed a lot of well-respected mining engineers (and some not-so-well respected). As far as I know, no later employers held my working there against me, but if I had stayed longer, I suspect I would have been labeled a “lifer”, which would have been a liability with this particular outfit. As it turned out, there was a massive layoff not too long after I resigned anyway.
Ecliptix — Nice to have you back. Really. Now let’s get down to business.
“This isn’t a site I think I can be associated with anymore if the opinions expressed in the article above and the comments overwhelmingly in support are indicative of the ‘slant’ and ‘mindset’ one must disavow to be an ACCEPTABLE EMPLOYEE in modern business.” …
———- ecliptix, (with emphasis mine)
.
You’ve done a good job relaying what you don’t like. OK, fine.
Let change course. From your perspective, what is an “Acceptable Employee”? Please explain in some detail. Cuz… quite frankly, I don’t know what the fuck it is that you want or expect.