Given the size of TBP’s readership, it seems certain that a there are several hundred members who will be seeking new employment at any given time. The intention here is to provide a bit of insight into what employers are looking for in employees, in hope that that information will assist the members to land interviews, successfully negotiate the interview, and hold the job through the crucial first few months.
As an employer, I hire employees for one reason and one reason only – to help the company make money. I believe this to be a universal truth for all employers. I understand a great many people find this truth to be distasteful, and that some greater relationship, such as mutual loyalty, should exist between employer and employee. To them I say this: what you believe matters not – this is the way it is. Live with it, or do not. If you choose to not live with it, your lives will be harder and it will impinge upon a fruitful search for employment. So in your search for work, keep foremost in your minds at all times this thought – how can I show prospective/current employers that I will help them make money?
The Application
I do not wish to dwell on this area, but will only try to provide some generic advice on what I look for when sifting through job applications.
– I look for a cover letter specific to me and my organization, and do not wish to see a form letter.
– I look for a resume that is appropriate to the position. In other words, I do not want to see a five page resume when the person is applying for a machine operator’s position. Limit the resume to no more than two pages no matter what position is being applied for. Also, get it professionally done, no typos, and printed on quality paper (I recommend something other than plain white so that it stands out).
– I do not want to see that the person has job-hopped. If you have, try to devise a means of obscuring and/or explaining this. I also do not want to see a huge list, or any list, of personal interests. It will not be a positive, and will possibly be a negative if it leaves me with the idea that you partake in dangerous activities or so many activities that they may interfere in your work.
– I want to see what skills you have, and I want to know what you have accomplished. What you were responsible for is of lesser interest to me. A lot of people are responsible for many things, but accomplish little.
– I want to see that you can help me make money.
The Interview
Following is what I want in an employee, and these are the things that the applicant needs to address during the interview:
– I want an employee that comes to work. This is the single most important thing. I repeat, this is the single most important thing. Everything else runs a distant second. You need to get the fact that you will come to work into your application. In 40 years of work I have missed the following days of work: 5 days with pneumonia, 3 days with hernia surgery, 1 day with shoulder surgery, 1 day with a temperature of 104, 2 days with food poisoning. I have no time for people that miss lots of work – especially if they miss lots of single days. Miss a week with pneumonia or surgery – fine. Miss ten days a year one day at a time? Take that crap somewhere else. Some people think that this is harsh. I do not care – not one single whit. Come to work, or get lost. My company averages less than 1.5% absenteeism, and always has. That is three days per year per person, and includes long-term illnesses. As a result, I am able to very accurately plan and schedule my business, which helps me make money and compete in a world market. (There is that thing again – money.)
If a new employee misses a day of work in the first month, I raise an eyebrow and keep an eye on what is going on. If they miss 2 days the first month, it is unlikely they will maintain their employment.
– I am not recruiting for superstars. Superstars are too rare to recruit for. I am recruiting for hard-working individuals that come to work, bring a varied skill-set, and are willing to learn. I do not want to hear that a person can do everything – it is almost always bullshit. I do not want to hear that they are quick learners. Everyone says they are a quick learner. No one is ever a quick learner. I want someone who says they will come to work every day and who says that they are willing to learn and that they will keep at it no matter how long it takes. Funny enough, it is these folks that turn into superstars. People that apply and try to sell themselves as superstars invariably overstate their cases. Sometimes they fool me, and I put these folks in jobs where I find out that they are in fact not qualified. That costs me money. That is a bad thing.
– I do not want job hoppers. If I see that a person has held 5 jobs in the last ten years, they need to explain this in detail, and to convince me that this is not going to continue. This may be hard to do. But the best way would include an explanation that they were young, immature, and have reached a point in their lives that they understand the need to be stable. I spend a lot of time and money training and recruiting new employees. I do not want to see that money wasted.
– I want employees that treat the job and business like it is their own. That is to say, they do not waste money or resources, they treat equipment with care, they produce a quality product every time, etc. I want employees that do not waste time. Every minute an employee wastes cost me approximately $1. Really. Say I have 130 employees and they all waste 10 minutes a day (I am sure it is far, far more than that) that is $1300 dollars per day wasted. Or about $300,000 per year wasted. Of my money. I can stroke out just thinking about it. So I want to hear that potential employees will not waste time, and that they will care for the business as though it is their own. So in an interview say exactly that – “I will not waste time and I will take care of your business just like it is my own”. See how fast you get hired.
– I want employees that fix their own problems. I do not want employees that bring me a never ending stream of problems they have identified. Most issues are not rocket science, and the employee can fix the problem themselves. And I do not want employees coming to me every time they have fixed a problem to crow about it. Blow your own horn, but do it infrequently. I am not blind – I can see. Let your prospective employer know you are this type person. It saves them money.
– I do not want anyone that is a pain in the ass. I want people who treat others with respect. I do not want people who are complaining all the time. I have enough trouble running a business, and do not want to be a babysitter too. It wastes my time and costs me money.
– There are two areas that every employee has absolute authority over –safety and quality. Employees are empowered to shut down any operation that is unsafe or which is spitting out bad quality. I want employees that understand that this is the case – that they are not helping me if they allow unsafe practices to continue or allow bad product to get out the door. Bad quality costs me money, as do any injuries – and injuries can even get me in severe legal trouble. I want people to keep me out of trouble.
– In interviews, I am always concerned if the applicant focuses too much on working hours/vacation days/sick leave provisions/etc. Perhaps it is all reasonable to ask, but it worries me nevertheless.
This list isn’t comprehensive, but it covers the basics. As is evident, it all comes down to money – helping the employer make it and save it. Applicants that show that they are focused on this will be successful. It will overcome a vast array of other deficiencies. For instance, I employ several ex-cons, people with learning disabilities or poor educational skills, ex-drug addicts, etc. etc. etc. For the most part, I do not care about that stuff – I care about whether they help me make money. In many cases I take a chance on people if I think they can help me make money. When I take a chance, I know that the odds are that I will not be successful – for instance, drug addicts relapse. But then again all new hires are something of a crap-shoot.
Here are some examples of how applicant have shot themselves in the foot, and lost the opportunity of a job, or have lost the job themselves:
– In an interview, the applicant told me that they couldn’t work past 3 on Friday, as he played golf then. He was stunned when I showed him the door immediately.
– A receptionist called in sick with a migraine on her first day of work. I advised her there would be no second day. She couldn’t understand it.
– A young man missed 3 days in the first month of work. When I spoke to him about it, he asked me what my problem was as “it is only 3 days in a whole month”. I showed him the door on the spot. The young man’s father showed up to threaten me for mistreating his 23 year old son. That didn’t go well.
– A painter with “10 years’ experience” baked 2 high value spray guns in 2 days. Baking the gun cooks the paint inside the gun and destroys it. Adios, amigo.
– A new hire clocked out without notifying anyone at 9 and came back at 1:30. When asked what that was about he said he had things to do. See you later.
– A new hire was leaping off the top of a dumpster onto his ass inside the dumpster “to compact it”. Do not pass go on the way out.
– A new hire emptied the trash out of his car (lunch bags/ashtray/newspapers/etc.) onto the ground in the employee parking lot. He thought that was fine. I didn’t.
– A new hire started a fire in an employee restroom as a joke. I laughed and laughed.
So, in summary, job applicants need to keep in mind exactly what the employer wants, and needs to convince the employer that he/she will deliver the goods. The employer wants someone to help make him/her money, and who will not be a pain in the ass. It really is that simple.
I hope that this is some help to those looking for new employment. I also hope that those many members with great experience can add and augment to this post. I know that many believe that the world should be a kinder, gentler place. Perhaps that is correct. But it doesn’t help today’s job applicant, who must live in the current reality.
Sometimes I am just happy to find some resumes that do not spell physician with and “f”, sigh.
Seriously, the work force has dramatically declined in the last 10 years, and the high school “graduates”? Forget it. Even most college grads are complete losers and I am talking about a front desk position here. Greet the patients, answer phones, schedule tests and appointments, that’s it. No, it does not require a cell phone. No it does not require a mileage allowance. No, it does not require a uniform allowance. Yes you have to work 90 days before you get a planned day off. Yes, we do a criminal background check and tell me now if that is a problem for you. Sheesh.
Many employees feel like they are doing the employer a favor just to work there. An alarming degree of narcissism that is usually is several logs higher than their value as an employee, IMHO. My radar goes up when some of the first questions center around benefits/time off/vacation/sick time and NOT what the job entails or opportunities for advancement.
As an employer, my job is to tell the employee what their job is, how to do it and meet my payroll, period. I am not their priest, their bank, their BFE, their mommy or their daddy. I do not want to hear about their ex-husband(s) and how far behind they are on the child support. I do not want to hear about your mother’s broken hip and I will not give you an Rx for morphine for her. I do not want to know why you are chronically late – you better fix the problem or get another job. Yes, you will take your lunch break and not accrue 1 hour of overtime everyday because you are not managing your job properly. No, you can’t take home gloves/toilet paper/paper towels, and please do not order school supplies for your kids through my office supplier. Just a few examples of what I have to deal with on a daily basis.
I welcome suggestions from my employees of how to do their jobs better and will reward employees who take on extra projects to run the office more efficiently and profitably. However, it is crystal clear than any employee who is not an asset to our business, or who has their own agenda, is out the door.
Sorry, but I am the one on the financial and regulatory hook here, as a business owner. I am the one that has done the 10 years of medical training – after college – and has put in the blood, sweat, tears, evenings, weekends, holidays to start my medical practice and keep it solvent.
When an employee wants to do what I, and my partners, have done and invested and are on the hook for, well, it will likely be a pretty cold day in hell, but that’s the day they can dictate to me, their boss, the terms of their employment.
If this makes me a hardass, pig-woman, bitchqueen, soulless capitalist to any of youse out there, tough titty. Get over yourself. The only person responsible for you is YOU.
llpoh prefers employees who are flexible
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Ok … last batch of funnies
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Job Hunting 2011 — The Reality
[img]http://www.comedymail.co.uk/getImage.asp?id=941[/img]
Just for JIM
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Crappy jobs … it’s all relative
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PJ:
These days, job hopping is a gamble. Often, it is necessary as the idea of a career at a single company has gone the way of the gold standard. I’ve always envied those who were born a few years earlier than me because I missed a lot of happy boats…
You may have the skills and experience that allows for your painless transition but I would never recommend anybody quitting in this climate.
Staying at one job for a long time (ie, not job hopping) implies a sense of loyalty.
However, does business in general (NOT directed at llpoh) have a sense of loyalty to it’s employees? I don’t think so.
So, why should “loyalty” be an issue for either side?
Now … if the job-hopping is due to the employee being fired, that’s a different story.
Stuck – I never said it was fair re job hoppimg. It is currently a buters market. Many of the attitudes people have – jobs should be fulfilling, etc – occurred during rhe previous sellers markets. It is a new reality, which is really just the old reality come round again.
Hope – nice comments.
I am not an ogre employer. I provide good benefits and a safe environment. I have long term employees. But I do not coddle. It is a business relationship.
Stuchers:
There’s a definite point. I think a lot of the friction in the employer/employee relationship has to do with loyalty and the expectation of such.
My personal view of the situation stems from the ability to put one’s self in the bossman’s shoes and, I think, vice-versa. As llpoh wisely said when refering to his younger days, this is a product of experience.
If your boss doesn’t know you on a first-name basis, trouble is on the horizon. A floor manager at a corporation is not the same as the owner in the office sweating it out.
Dam I wish I could elaborate, I’m cleaning last night’s mess to make room for tonight’s mess.
Ssg – you are spot on. What it comes down to is we all have families to feed. Mine only get fed if I turn a profit. My employees feed theirs by trading their labor. It works but it isn’t always fun.
@ecliptix543: When you own the company, you can make up your own employee interviews.
@Hope@ZeroKelvin Sounds like a queen to me – but not a bitch queen; One that’s competent, talented, worked her ass off getting where she is and prefers to stay there.. More power to you.
@crazyivan: NOW I know why your comments are so off the wall – you’re a cropduster, bushpilot and most important, and A&E. Jesus Christ, you cant be expected to be sane! Anyone who has done that as long as you have has got to be good at what they do or you’d be dead! (I flew crops for three years putting myself through grad school! Scared the shit out my sweetie (and me too) but the Flight Instructing fees just wouldn’t cut it!).
@llpoh: I job hopped all my life – the first 20 years the easy way. I was working for RCA but as soon as a job was smoothed out, off we went to something different. Paycheck was from the same place, I just worked at different places on different things. After going back to school, I job shopped because I never had to make an application or interview. People called me. I lucked out and was very good at what I did to the point where one’s reputation preceded you like old Pinnochios’ nose. If you ever need a heavy ground radar or telescope designed, built, installed, interfaced or maintained, I’m your man (slower now, of course, but it’d get done!).
Please don’t call because I’m enjoying my retirement too much…
I still think you need to roll this whole thread into a book and put it on Amazon self-published..
The way I worked it was this: while I was really good at what I did (from nuts and bolts and digits to electrons) I ALWAYS wanted to be available for something better. So when I came on a job, I started looking for the most ambitious, sharpest best worker I had. If I was lucky, there were a couple of them (never too many). Then I’d make my choice, take her/him out and buy her/him a beer and ask, “Joan/Bob, how would you like to have my job?”. No ambitious, good troop is going to say no to that, so they ALWAYS said “Yes!” usually in a quavery voice.
Then I’d work their ass off, teach them everything they needed to know and generally hone them to the point that when I took vacation, things would run just as if I were there.
In 6 months, there would be a call from someone saying,” God, Muck, we just won thos contract or that job or this job is a total fucked up mess and do you know anyone who can fix it?”.. Unless it was a total looser (in which case I’d recommend the 2nd best man I had on staff to go do it), I’d say ,”Sure I know – me.”
At that point, my current boss (one always has a boss), would scream, “But who will be get to take your place?” I’d name the guy I trained for the job, sell him to the boss – which was easy after the first time I did it) and he’s get a promotion and I’d upstakes and get a new job with usually more responsibility, money and in a fun place with new challenges and opportunities.
I still have people writing me letters 20 years later about how I changed their lives. I also left a big long line of younger people trained to do it right behind me and had a blast the whole time I did it.
We had people competing to do jobs better, more efficiently and faster! Competing!!
I learned the whole kit from one manager I had who taught me how to do it back when I was 22. I watched him, followed him around, even took his place when he went on vacation (I was just the best of a bunch of poor choices at the time). But I LEARNED and observed and saw that he was using the best way to get the job done the best way, keep his people fighting to work for him and readying himself for the next job up (which he went to – all the way to VP for RCA).
There are ways to work. There are ways to pretend to work. There are ways not to work. There are ways to make job applications. There are ways never to get a job.
Publish a guide book, llpoh – put some extra pennies in the till and do some people some good (if they take your advise.
Good post and keep breaking up those rocks..
MA
Llpoh:
I’m showing this to a lot of folks. I forgot to mention my thanks to you. That’s what I love about this site… great folks who know what they’re talking about without social filter.
Quick question: If you have an employee of 15 years who is going to college and has finally made it to a 4 year and can’t find enough night classes, would you allow a half-day once a week?
Not paid, mind you. I put work first, mind you and I’m really afraid to ruffle the boss’ feathers. No is an acceptable answer, but would it drive unspoken wedges between you and the employee?
I know your not my boss and you can’t speak for him… I just need to hear that angle from someone actually in that position, even in broad terms!
Colma – I absolutely would allow it. I currently have folks in similar situations. I love that people try to better themselves. Thanks for the kind words.
Muck – great comments and history. Your background somewhat similar to my early years – firefighting. You should be proud of your mentoring history.
It is critical that everyone remember that all of this from the employers perspective. I know the sellers (employees) want as much as possible from the employer. However, in this relationship people forget that the customer (the employer) is always right. And make no mistake – the employer is the customer. Too many employees think ithe relationship is actually reversed.
From the other side of the desk.
As an applicant employee Here’s what I don’t want:
Don’t bullshit me about your company’s *teamwork* and goals when what you really mean is that you want us to whine and rat each other out for every tiny juvenile thing (“He took and extra 3 1/2 minutes for his coffee break on Tuesday and made a personal phone call on company time”….wah wah wah)
If you want me do do a job efficiently, don’t stick me in a broom closet with a pencil and some paper clips and no clear instructions, then wonder why the assigned task isn’t completed.
Don’t tell me you expect top notch work of the part time seasonal job you are interviewing me for–when I can look around and see the place is a wreck. Is this how you run a tight ship, huh? I know you are a loser, I don’t want to work for you. Hire the legally blind applicant who can’t see what what a mess the place is.
Don’t follow me around every minute of the work day looking for shit to complain about. I’m good at what I do. That’s why I do it and that’s why I get paid for doing it. I can look around and see what needs to be done and I don’t need your ass to point out the obvious tasks at hand. That’s why you hired me isn’t it?? To actually get something done? So get out of my way and let me get my fricking job done.
Don’t give me a bunch of broken worn out equipment that you bought second hand ten years ago and expect me to build Noah’s Ark. If you want a quality job then I need decent equipment to accomplish the tasks.
Don’t ask me stupid questions about what my shortcomings are or what my greatest accomplishments were, or trick questions about “How would you handle blah blah blah situation” that has absolutely nothing to do with the actual job we’re hiring you for. Dear god, could you please be real? That kind of hotseat crap has nothing to do with getting the job done.
I-show-up-for-work-to-get-the-job-done. Can you try to focus on that please?
I work for a living. A fair day’s work for a fair day’s wage. I will be the best employee you’ve ever had if you:
Provide clear instructions
Provide the tools necessary to get the job done
Stay off my case and let me get it done
You’d be surprised how few employers have a clue that their employees really are good at what they do, don’t need constant demeaning babysitting, and will give their best effort because most people take pride in what they do for a living.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it LLPOH.
@marissa : You wil always be employable if you can get that across to your prospective employer without pissing him off.
MA
Marissa – some of what you say is true enough. But mostly you are clueless. You forget who the customer is. Your job is to apply your skills to the best of your ability. If someone harangues you if you do that – shame on them. Sometimes a business can only afford the tools/room/etc that it has. There are budgetary constraints.
I hope you find an employer that will meet your requirements. It will not be me. My employees meet my requirements. I am the customer.
Marissa – one other thing. I am of the sort that I generally give little or no instruction. I say what I want as an end result. I then allow my people the latitude, within reason, to determine the best method. That makes for a happier workforce – they appreciate the freedom. Plus I believe people are smart and capable of figuring things out themselves. If they need help, I help. Again, most people prefer that system. I almost never give direct orders or instruction. And I am very successful at what I do. People stay with me a long time, and, like Muck, they stay in touch even after they leave.
I am not a babysitter.
EMPLOYERS & EMPLOYEES IN THE CAPITALIST MODEL
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/reverseengineering/message/2442
RE
llpoh says:
“Marissa – some of what you say is true enough. But mostly you are clueless. You forget who the customer is. Your job is to apply your skills to the best of your ability. If someone harangues you if you do that – shame on them. Sometimes a business can only afford the tools/room/etc that it has. There are budgetary constraints.
I hope you find an employer that will meet your requirements. It will not be me. My employees meet my requirements. I am the customer.”
Done deal. If you recognized yourself in the above description of employers who want to micromanage every breath you take, give you crap tools to work with and expect the Taj Mahal, and pit employees against each other under the guise of *teamwork*–dude, you don’t have enough money to hire me. I flat out wouldn’t work for you. I’m too old to play those games anymore. I don’t have enough time left in this world to waste it on nonsense like that. I’m busy getting things done.
(Am I guessing correctly here that your little business has a hefty turnover? Hummm…..?)
Marissa: It sounds like you aren’t a pain in the ass. This didn’t describe you! The immediate anger you express is misdirected…
I am extremely populistic in many ways. I believe that good workers should be given good wage, but I despise bad workers. They cost the bread-butterer… the boss… which eventually comes out of the good workers’ benefit. If I have a two-man job to do and a co-worker isn’t there, not only am I fucked, but the boss too. When a customer doesn’t pay my employer, I don’t see it as them sticking it to “the man”… they’re really sticking it to me. It really is that simple.
Rather than see arbitrage of domestic workers’ wage, I want to see foreign workers demand higher wages. Where employees are literally being put in a grinder is offshore. I want consumers to spring extra for quality. It just doesn’t work out that way, unfortunately. The theories always break down when dealing with human beings. (Go Mises)
The employer and employee should be a team with similar goals. To produce something someone else wants or needs at a price that justifies that someone not doing it themselves.
“Rather than see arbitrage of domestic workers’ wage, I want to see foreign workers demand higher wages.”-CR
How pray should they do that? Unionize?
In any event, the mercantilist model is dead without cheap energy. This sort of Bizness is going the way of the dinosaur in a big hurry.
RE
Marissa – my employee turnover is exceptionally low. Average tenure is over 8 years. Employees do not make demands of employers – it is the other way around. Any employee anywhere that feels they are not treated fairly can take their product – their labor – elsewhere. Simple. Easy. Fair.
Colma – nice commentary.
RE – glad you are contributing in a positive fashion. You add a different – albeit wrong! – perspective to this.
“Employees do not make demands of employers – it is the other way around. ”
That’s ridiculous. I don’t work for anyone who won’t meet my demands. Take the job and shove it. I’m out the door the minute the employer doesn’t kiss my ass.
RE
Admin said to llpoh
“LLPOH
How long until RE arrives to shit all over this thread?”
Answer: about 70 comments, give or take.
@SSS
I thought I showed great restraint here 🙂
RE
RE: In a non-pluralistic manner, yes. That’s where the modern day Triangle Shirt Factory is.
Not in llpoh’s shop.
I could have posted a 4000 word rebuttal to this you know.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/reverseengineering/message/2442
RE
Marissa-I get your point, but this thread isn’t “what an employee should expect/demand from their employer”. It was about how to get hired. With the current state of the economy and unemployment, if you are looking for a job, it might be smarter and more practical to focus on the latter. If you get enough offers, you can shop around for the one that best meets the former. As llpoh states, you are always free to leave if the relationship is unsatisfactory to you. You are not an indentured servant, you are an employee.
Colma-Despite a few whacky posts some time ago, you are showing great wisdom for your age. Kudos. You have earned quite a few “thumbs up” from me recently.
Eclipitix-hope you don’t bail on TBP. I am perplexed by your position on this post and the economic system in general. I suggest that if you cannot deal with the employee/employer relationship llpoh has described, you may be more comfortable starting your own business or working as a contractor. Those options have their own perils too. I’d appreciate an explanation of where you think llpoh went wrong, and how “the system” ought to work-honestly, I don’t get it.
Success! Another member has come over to the Dark Side!
RE
@RE: Thank you for not doing so.
MA
Llpoh:
Question: If indeed a recent college grad comes without experience, what’s the best way to get the old foot in the door? Any and every employer wants experience, of course, but what about the nubes? What should they do at the interview if they manage to get one? Of course, the salary would be lower… but if you were to be convinced of training let’s say, a mechanical engineer, what has to happen?
Generic question, I know, but I’ll throw it out there…
AKA – absolutely right. If their are many bidders for an employees wares, by all means make the best of it – get a big office/company car/ unlimited leave/ etc. But that is very rare these days.
I have had a lot – and by that I mean perhaps a quarter or more – of my workforce leave to take “better” offers, only to return soon thereafter. I always congratulate them as they are leaving – I love to see people better themselvs. Why do they return? Not for the money – these folks are good employees, and mmet the requirements I mention above.
They come back because no one bothers them at my company – and I mean no one. They are virtually their own bosses. The do not get given tasks – they get given outcomes and then figure out what tasks they need to do. Some of them are probably on half or two-thirds what they could make elsewhere. But you cannot put a price on peace and autonomy. I cannot pay them what they can earn elsewhere as the job itself is not of that level. But the personal authority and freedom they have is invaluable to them.
If an employee provides the basics of the contract – comes to work, etc. – then I provide peace and a reasonable standard of living. Problems only arise if someone fails to meet their contracted obligations.
The key is to make yourself as little dependent on an individual employer as possible. The more things you know how to do and the lower the wage you can live on the more freedom you have. Ideally of course you should be able to live without any money at all from regular employment, though that can be difficult. There are ways though to make the small amount of money you really do need to live long as you don’t let yoursefl get truly destitute. For a while during one Unemployment stretch I ran a little Unlicensed Lunch Biz out of my Van selling my own Homemade Chili, Chicken Soup and Sandwiches. Made around $50 in 2 hours during Lunch Hour at a couple of different workplaces.
Once you do this, anytime you run into a petty Small Biz Owner who won’t acceed to your demands, you just tell him to shove it and take off. What these folks are willing to pay for jobs like Receptionist or Janitor just isn’t all that much money, certainly not enough to take any bullshit from them. Its not like these kinds of jobs lead to any career ladder anyhow. You’re a machinist on the floor of a plant, that is pretty much all you will ever be in a small shop.
The spin down we have before us here means that most jobs that are available will be low paid jobs anyhow. Manufacturing biznesses related to the automotive industry will all go out of biz here over time, both here and in China. The Medical Industry will fall apart as the Medicaire system does. The model is basically in a catastrophic failure mode.
RE
Colma – what I find lacking in young folks – college educated or not – is an understanding of what work is, and an understanding that the employer is the customer and not vice versa. The young have a sense of entitlement and an unrealistic view of the value of their product.
So what can they do? They need to express their understanding of work, that they know they have a lot to learn, but that they will be energetic and persistent in doing whatever job they are given. They also need to somehow state/show that they will not be prima donna pains in the ass but will put their heads down and their asses up. And they really need to leave all the social networking crap at home.
That said, newbie grads are high risk low reward. I would jump all over someone such as yourself that has augmented school with work, tho.
New grads are highly likely to be job hoppers. And you know how I feel about that. Fair? Hell no it isn’t. But it is my money and I decide who I spend it on. I try to spend it on low risk high reward employees.
RE – I pay what many would call “unskilled” about $50k per year. Janitors get about $20 an hour, the receptionist around $23. Not incredibly poorly paid. The operators have to work a bit of OT to get to 50k, but it is generally available to them. Without the OT the are around high 30s per year. I do not give them shit. But if they are taking my money they have an obligation to provide me with their best efforts no matter what pay has been agreed upon. As you say, if they do not like the arrangement they can tell me to shove it. I never have hard feelings if that happens. I cannot remember the last time anyone left that way – it has been nearly 20 years since someone told me to jam it. Fancy that.
RE – I also strongly advise people to work for themselves if they cannot come to grips with the employer/employee relationship. Some people cannot. I think ecliptix is one such that should consider that option.
Good small business perspective but not particularly applicable in corporate America.
“AKAnon says:
Marissa-I get your point, but this thread isn’t “what an employee should expect/demand from their employer”.
I’m not demanding anything. I’m illustrating the grievous mistakes employers make when dealing with employees/new hires. I have met every instance I illustrated. And worse.
Employers seem to think it is investigative to stray far from the job description to ask bizarre and unjob related questions of the applicant. They say they have thus-and-such standards and then when you look around you see that no such standards are evident in the workplace. They will tell you they need thus-and-such results from their people and then do not give the employees the tools to provide those successful results. Recruits are lied to, manipulated, and treated like indentured servants all the while the company is demanding the most soulfull dedication and loyalty.
Perhaps, according to his telling, LLPOH is not not in this camp of bait and switch employers. But I have met many of them–most employers actually. Yet applicants are supposed to overlook the manipulations and insouciance of the employer, and grovel to incompetent managers who are gods offering them a paycheck that won’t cover the gas to get to work.
It’s not a fair’s day pay for a fair day’s work anymore. Employers want servants, not get-her-done-ers. Getting the job done is a lower priority than ‘fitting in’.
One of the many reasons this country is going to hell in a handbasket.
@LLPOH
The $30K-40K range is what I spent most of my working years at. The fact of the matter is that this was an insufficient wage to marry, raise a family, have a decent house, etc. However, most people took on such obligations regardless of that, so they tend to get trapped into jobs they don’t like because they cannot afford even a brief period of unemployment.
Such Jobs are not really jobs at all, its a form of wage slavery, as Ecliptix mentioned. If you are offering jobs paying in the 6 figures, this is Job creation, not jobs paying $30K to $40K. By paying people such wages, essentially you turn into an Oversear of Slaves. In return for this, you get to pay yourself quite well, becuase of course the profits of the bizness are “your” money. Being an oversear of slaves has never appealed to me, so even when I ran my own biznesses, I was the sole employee.
Anyhow, in the economy up until 2008, as long as you were mobile with a variety of skills, jobs in the $30K-40K range were not all that hard to come by, so in this case its the Emplyers responsibility to make the Employee happy, not the other way round if the Employer is going to have a stable workforce. You have said two contraidcotry things in this thread, one that “2/3rds of the time your interview process failed”, indicating that you werent able to find the ideal wage slave and got a turkey instead. But then you also tell us you had extremely happy and stable employees. What I do know for sure is that you’ll show an employee the door as soon as he makes a big mistake or misses too many days of work.
From my point of view as an employee, its the responsibility of the employer to meet my demands and make me happy. If you have been successful in doing that while still paying slave wages, more power to you.
Now that the economy is contracting, its even more important to be mobile and able to survive on even less than $30-40K. I can easily live on minimum wage if I have to, at least so long as we still can get fuel for the cars anyhow. People have to grasp that high paying jobs are going to disappear here the most rapidly and prepare themselves to live with less. Bizness owners have to grasp that most of the biznesses related to manufacturing will go out of bizness, here and in China. The amount of money you can sieve off the backs of slave laborers will become vanishingly small, just as was true of the slave economy of Old Dixie.
Its not going to happen overnight, but for the individual here, the best plan is to be able to survive on very little money at all. You can still get minimum wage jobs, even better than that up here. The School Busses are Hiring, Alaska FCU is hiring at all levels, big sign out in front of the offices. As the economy grinds downward, you still can make demands of the employer that he must fulfill, or else see a parade of people going through his bizness. Its that simple.
RE
Muck
You are a bad ass! We need more mentor leaders like you.
Colma
You are dead on. This site is awesome. The valuable input provided by everyone on this thread is incredible. I’m learning so much from this thread.
LLPOH
You have a 8 year tenure for your employees which is awesome. Employees that leave your company tend to come back. It is obvious that you have learned the key to motivating your employees. How do you motivate your employees without relying on monetary rewards only. ?Ecliptix mentioned that humans are solely motivated by money. I disagree with that comment. If one is soley motivated by money then one is setting themselves up for misery. Money is a motivation but not the sole motivation of humans. I believe good leaders can lead and inspire without using money as the motive. What is your key to motivating and keeping good employees without always having to offer money as an incentive?
Doppelganger @ 10:21
“Such Jobs are not really jobs at all, its a form of wage slavery, as Ecliptix mentioned. If you are offering jobs paying in the 6 figures, this is Job creation, not jobs paying $30K to $40K. By paying people such wages, essentially you turn into an Oversear of Slaves.”
oh, bullshit.
what a crock.
tossing out the emotionally laden ‘S’ word is just ignorant garbage.
wage slavery. jumbo shrimp. government intelligence. RE making a truly logical post.
(ok, cheap shot, just busting your balls with that last bit. but your ‘wage slavery’ assertion i absolutely completely reject.)
labor has a price, set by conditions in the market. no, i am not going to call it a free market, but it is a market-set price nonetheless.
wanna make it worse? let the government mandate a living wage, and/or bennies, like health care. then you create ‘unemployed slaves’.
Make that 2 new members. Ecliptix has now joined the Dark Side as well 🙂
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/reverseengineering/
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RE
let me seriously engage you on this (yeah, this’ll be fun i bet)
“However, most people took on such obligations regardless of that, so they tend to get trapped into jobs they don’t like…”
sure. this is true. there are lots of reasons for this choice. lots of factors and forces.
but to blame the segment of society providing the jobs, to blame the factory owner, who is not free to set whatever wage he feels like, but is a single actor in the market, not the maker of the market or the setter of wage level–
your repeated laying of blame on this segment, (and llpoh in particular) is just unsupportable and wrong.
not until he starts putting a gun to the head of his applicants. if the society puts a figurative gun to their heads (which i do not accept, but for a moment i’ll indulge the idea), how about spreading the blame a bit?
@Howie
You think you can reject my assertion on Wage Slavery? Come on over to the Dark Side and TAKE ME ON Young Skywalker. Show your courage and take the battle to the enemy turf.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/reverseengineering/
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RE
“wanna make it worse? let the government mandate a living wage, and/or bennies, like health care. then you create ‘unemployed slaves’.”-Howie
I addressed the issue of Goobermint jobs in my original response to this thread, which is far to long to drop on here.
Market driven prices for labor do not make it any less of a slavery paradigm, particularly of course if it is not a free market, which you acknowledge it is not. Your particular profession operates through Gatekeeping, which restricts the number of doctors who get licensed to practice, by you guessed it, Da Goobermint.
With a vast pool of unskilled labor, which is what the industrial paradigm uses, the market forces the wages down to the lowest possible level where the slaves can still feed and clothe themselves. In order to avoid becoming a slave to this paradigm, you either work yourself into one of the gate kept professions, or you become a slave oversear yourself and hire people as cheap as you can get reliable ones who don’t drop expensive machinery or bake paint guns.
Problem is of course slave wages do not allow for these folks to be consumers of either automobiles or expensive medical care, so as the wages wind down to lower levels and more jobs disappear, gradually the doctors lose their base of support and so do the manufacturers. It will take a little time before it works its way into the boutique economy of the Upper East Side, but it will get there.
RE
only if you are my daddy.
but, no, it is not a slavery paradigm.
slavery is a slavery paradigm. bondage. legal non-personhood. zero freedom over your own, well everything.
slaves wages are zero. not $40k a year.
you said you spent most of your life at $30-40k jobs.
was that not a choice?
anyway, the ‘vast pool of unskilled labor’ is something that changed drastically over the past thirty years. enlarging to include the sun belt (for thentofore northeast manufacturing), to mexico, to taiwan and the phillipines, then to china.
that was (in large part) due to government policies.
yet, you blame our poor friend LLPOH.
that is what i object to, much more than your gross misuse of a ‘slavery’ metaphor.
(and my profession is far from this discussion. but this was basically my argument over on karl’s site, from a different angle. he held me, and all doctors, responsible for the distortions of our slice of the economy by government and industry, pharma and insurance. i suggested he as a consumer and voter had every bit as much responsibility as i as a single doctor. banning was threatened. hilarity ensued.)
oh, and the fact that it has not yet worked its way into my little piece of elite paradise answers your question (rhetorical, but whatevs), wtf am i doing staying in nyc as the world falls apart?
sun’s still shining on the upper east side. i’m still making hay. a lot less than a few years ago (mainly because i’ve stopped working for or with asshole doctors, which narrows my options severely, and limits my work currently to three days a week).
Slave wages are not Zero Howie. The Slave Owner has to pay the slaves in Clothing, Food and Housing. Provide sufficient of these things, you generally got docile and happy slaves. Start skimping on them, the slaves get progressively more unhappy.
The industrial paradigm offloaded the cost of feeding, housing and clothing onto the slave himself. Now rather than being tied to a particular owner, he gets tied into the system in general. The market forces general labor price down to JUST enough to feed, clothe and house the low wage slave.
With luck and smarts, some people do work their way out of this trap, but then some Slaves bought their freedom also. For the vast majority though it is a very difficult thing to work your way out of, especially when debt gets chucked into the game. You are working at a marginal level just able to make ends meet, and POOF your car needs a new alternator. It goes on the CC so you can get to work, and now you add some debt service into your monthly bills.
The Slavery is not the same kind, you are not directly owned by an individual, but you are owned by the society and if you are not a mobile sort like me, you become very beholden to the Oversear who has given you a slave wage job. You get yourself even more trapped much as a serf is trapped once you take on a Mortgage and a House. Now you cannot even leave the neighborhood for another job unless you can sell said house for at least what you took out the mortgage for. How is that different from Serfs who were tied to the land? Because they had a “choice” to buy the house or not? They are sold that this is the way to move up in the world, its how you build Equity! Besides that, with various credit instruments they could actually “buy” a house for less than it cost to rent for quite some time there, and with no money down to boot!
Yes I made the choice to live at this level, but by not taking on obligations I took on the role more of a Journeyman Tradesman than a Slave. I simply avoided certain traps most people consider very important, like having a family and “owning” some property.
Far as cutting LLPOH some slack goes, the only slack I can cut him is that he is just one of many Slave Oversears who all followed the same paradigm here. The society redesigned itself in the Industrial Era to allow for greater mobility in the workforce of slaves and technology using the thermodynamic energy of oil improved even the slaves standard of living, but their relative economic condition did not change all that much. Not sure precisely what the percentage of the population was who were slaves back in Old Dixie, but I bet it wasn’t that much different from the percentage of people who either work at very low paid jobs or are on the FSA Dole. With the decay of the industrial paradigm due to the increasing cost of energy, that percentage will go larger until the society readjusts to a lower energy footprint.
Far as remaining in NY Shity because you still can participate in the boutique economy there, feel free to do so but just do not wait a day too long there. Escaping from NY will be a challenge once TSHTF for real. Snake Plisken you are not either.
RE
no.
that is like saying if you have horses, their food and shelter are ‘wages’.
look, if you intend the word ‘slavery’ as a metaphor, it is a tired and inapt metaphor.
the market price of labor has fluctuated up and down during our life times. i doubt workers anywhere else in the world would describe them as subsistence, ‘just enough to feed, clothe’ even today.
thank you for leaving debt out of our back and forth tonight. because regardless of societal norms and pressures to conform, debt is still nearly always a voluntary choice. an ignorant choice often, but that is another discussion.
kinda.
because, again, taking a job fof $30k, and showing up every day is also a voluntary choice.
not only is serfdom a world apart from 21st century america, so is the era of capitalism that marx critiqued–the early industrial periods of england and later america.
i can entertain the notion of the american sweatshop worker of the 1910s, the new immigrant slaughterhouse laborer as described by upton sinclair, the dude lucky enough to have a job picking fruit in the fields of 1935 depression cali.
but not the auto worker of the golden age 1960s. and certainly not the operator in LLPOH’s factory of today. yeah, it sucks compared to that auto worker. but it ain’t wage slavery.
anyway, i’m gonna stop. i’m not saying anything you haven’t heard or considered before. and i get where you are coming from. i just don’t buy it.
the metaphor is at best worn and doesn’t fit. and the actuality includes tremendous degrees of personal choice and personal options that you choose to ignore or heavily discount.
ultimately, the bondage is one of the mind, of ignorance, of acceptance of myths and lies. and, again, there is personal choice to consume the societal kool-aid. not holding the powers that be innocent, but a democratic republic requires a lot of thinking and participation.
and no, don’t call me snake. i’m more a brain/harry dean stanton type. with adrienne barbeau on my arm. don’t call me harold, either.
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Llpoh said, “I am of the sort that I generally give little or no instruction. I say what I want as an end result. I then allow my people the latitude, within reason, to determine the best method. That makes for a happier workforce – they appreciate the freedom. Plus I believe people are smart and capable of figuring things out themselves. If they need help, I help. Again, most people prefer that system. I almost never give direct orders or instruction. And I am very successful at what I do.”
As a government drone, as Admin so lovingly calls people like me, that’s EXACTLY the leadership and management style I figured out as a young captain in the early 70s when I was put in charge of a very critical unit defending the Panama Canal. It worked like a charm even in the military. I never changed, and it never failed me.