PROLOGUE
Along with The Arky Arky and the Great Flood, the Tower of Babel is one of the best known bible stories.
But it is famous beyond its ACTUAL content … a mere 236 words (in English). Yet, the story has come to mean much more than its actual words. For example, the idea that God is so afraid of tall brick structures that he has to create multiple languages to keep people from becoming too smart for their own good.
Most have at least a vague idea of what the story is about, or at least know the name “Babel”. But, let’s take a look at the entire brief text. I will follow-up with my usual outrageous observations.
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THE BIBLICAL TEXT — GENESIS 11:1-9
“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built. And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.”
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BACKGROUND
The Babel story is a great example why a literal interpretation of many OT stories makes no sense whatsoever. A literal interpretation makes a mockery of science, tortures logic, and detracts from the author’s actual spiritual meaning (if any) he intended to impart.
Genesis is a narrative dealing with “beginnings,” as its title indicates. It records the beginning of the universe, plant life, animal life, and even mankind. Hence, one is tempted to apply a literal interpretation that the primary lesson of the Babel passage is the record of how human beings began to speak different languages. This is incorrect, as you will soon see.
That being said, “Babel” may very well be a story of beginnings. The city “Babel,” is the same exact term used of “Babylon” elsewhere in the Bible. Indeed, the Tower was built in Mesopotamia, not Israel. So, more than just a possible explanation for the confusion of languages, it may also function as the etymology of “Babylon” …. the very same Babylonian empire that would wreak tremendous havoc on Israel in sixth century B.C.E. … and the very same Babylon called a “Whore” in Revelation, representing all that is evil, and ultimately destroyed.
Before I get into specifics, it is worth mentioning the origin of the word “Babel”. Strong’s Concordance says the word means “confusion”. That may be true regarding the meaning, but that’s not its etymology. In Hebrew “el” is a name for God … any God, actually. In Ezekiel — “I am el (God), in the seat of elōhîm (Gods). The Hebrews called God El-shaddai (God almighty), ImmanuEL (God with us), and dozens of other “el-” names. The Miriam Webster dictionary gives the following etymology — “Middle English, from Hebrew Bābhel, from Akkadian bāb-ilu, gate”. So, what is Babel? Literally, the Gate of God. So, is it the city that’s called Babel because that’s where God “came down” … as the text says? Or, was the actual tower the people were constructing the “gate of God” … their attempt to “reach to heaven”, or more likely, their attempt to provide a means for God to come down? The text is not clear. So, we’ll leave as interesting speculation.
THE MYTH OF A UNIVERSAL LANGUAGE
“And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.”
A literal interpretation presents problems right from the get go. That’s because there has NEVER been One Universal Language spoken by all humanity. However, I don’t wish to debate philology. A fine overview of the origin of languages is here; — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_language
Rather, I am much more interested in the status of human language AT THE TIME referred to by the text. Scholars diverge wildly regarding the possible date the Tower of Babel could have been built – anywhere from 3500BC – 2500BC. So, let’s take the earliest possible date (3500BC) and briefly examine the archaeological evidence.
I need only one example. Spirit Cave in Thailand is a stratified site showing human occupation from BEFORE 5000 B.C. We do not know what language they were speaking in what is now Thailand …. but we can be darn sure it was not Sumerian, or Hebrew. Also, an archaeological dig in Pakistan revealed trident-shaped writing on fragments of pottery dating even further back at 5,500 years BC. Pretty sure they weren’t speaking Sumerian or Hebrew either. There, I gave you two examples.
The fact of the matter is the writer of Genesis 11 was oblivious to the existence of the Far East, Australia, the Americas, and pretty much the rest of the world beyond a few hundred miles of his locale. . Had he been aware of these lands, the peoples, and their cultures … which existed AT THE SAME TIME as when The Tower was built …. then he would have had a much better understanding regarding the history of language, and he would NEVER have said “.. the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech”.
Furthermore … and quite significantly … the previous chapter in Genesis, Gen: 10, seems to completely contradict the Babel story. Gen 10 is known as the “Table of Nations”. It lists all the nations that derived from Noah’s sons (Shem, Ham and Japheth) after the flood; Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, dozens of other “ites” and even including Egypt and …. Babylon. No one in their right mind would suggest that ancient Egypt and ancient Babylon spoke the same language. We have written texts from both areas to prove otherwise. So,now we have at least two languages. Of much, much greater significance is the fact that the Bible itself states that once dispersed …. these people spoke “after their tongues”! Let’s be clear about this; the Bible states people spoke in unique tongues BEFORE the construction of the Tower.
Either the author of Chapter 11 was being redundant at best (an unlikely repetition in Chapter 11 of what was just reviewed in Chapter 10), or much more likely, he didn’t know that God ALREADY dispersed the nations … each speaking after their own tongues. That’s quite a conundrum for literalists.
GOD GETS ALL PARANOID, ONCE AGAIN
“ And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower … Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down,”
1)- God says, “let US go down”. Who is this “us”?? Some folks say it is a figure of speech; such as when a British Royal Queen refers to herself as “we”. Unfortunately, there was no British royalty back then … and the royalty that did exist simply didn’t talk that way. But most Christians say God was talking to Jesus in his pre-incarnate form .. cuz Jeebus existed before he was born. I don’t know how to debate time-travel fantasies, so I won’t. The more logical explanation is that the ancient Jews, before they developed monotheism, believed in multiple Gods. Even Abraham’s father worshipped multiple Gods, and almost certainly Abraham was raised by his own father to do likewise (until he didn’t). Many years later, perhaps decades, Rachel was caught hiding the “household idols” inside her camel’s saddle. Then after the Jews escaped Egpyt, one of their first acts was to construct and worship a Golden Calf. However Christians want to interpret this. The fact of the matter is that early Judaism adopted very many of the Gods they left behind, they believed in multiple Gods, amd monotheism actually took centuries to fully develop.
2)- Why does an omniscient, omnipotent God need to “come down” to see anything?? And, where exactly is he coming down from? Does he walk, or take a bus? Theologians call this anthropomorphism; “the attribution of human form or other characteristics to anything other than a human being, such as a God.”. These attributions must be made because no one has ever seen this OT God. Moses came closest, and even then, he only saw God’s “backside” … literally, “ass”. Who said there’s no humor in the Bible? “Anthropomorphism” is just a way of saying; “We make our Gods in MAN’S image.” Have you ever noticed that Western Gods behave just like humans? Especially the Greek and Roman Gods with all their fornication and backstabbing and jealousy and murder. And the OT God who laughs, cries, repents, has massive bouts of anger so much so that he has attempted to wipe out the human race, is often driven to jealous rage, and suffers from severe bouts of paranoid insecurity. We “anthropomorphize” deities because the more the Gods become like men, the easier it is for men to believe in the Gods.
3) Regarding paranoia in the Tower of Babel story —- why would an omnipotent God be so damn afraid of humans [supposedly] speaking one language? Why is he so afraid of humans building a structure that is, at best, about 300 feet high? Why didn’t he strike dead the builders of One World Trade Center who just completed a 1,776 foot skyscraper? Why is God afraid of technological progress? Does God REALLY believe that by having one language that “NOTHING” will be “impossible” for mankind? The implication being that puny finite mankind can (will) overthrow an all-powerful eternal God …. unless their language be confounded. Isn’t this idea just beyond silly, and indicative of massive paranoia?
And this isn’t the first time God exhibited his paranoia. He freaked out when Adam and Eve ate of the forbidden fruit …. fearing that mankind is “now like us”. (There’s that ‘us’ again.) Really?? Humans are now like God because they ate some fruit? Shortly thereafter God freaked out again … afraid that Adam and Eve might eat from a tree that would give them eternal life, so he had an angel with a flaming sword drive them out of the Garden to prevent that. Another time God was so freaked out over man’s wickedness that he sent a Great Flood to wipe out all but eight people from the face of the earth …. you know, because this all-powerful God was totally powerless to influence humanity. There are dozens more stories in the OT where God freaks out, and when God freaks out, humans die. A strange and paranoid God.
HOW DID GOD PULL THIS OFF?
Almost always in the reading of God’s miracles, they are almost always simply accepted at face value. The reasoning being that God is All-Powerful, and therefore He can do anything He wants. So, when the Bible states that the planet Earth stopped spinning, or the sun stood still, (so that Joshua could kill more Amorites), well, not one in a hundred Christian readers stops to ask themselves “how in the hell is that even possible without the earth exploding into space in a million fragments?” “More miracles” is the only possible response. But that answers absolutely nothing. Such cop-out explanations are akin to the Hindu idea that the elephant holds up the earth. Someone asks, “What holds up the elephant?” Answer: Another elephant. And so on, ad infinitum, ad absurdum.
So, exactly how did God pull this off? Did folks suddenly and immediately in the blink of an eye start speaking, for example, German? Were they suddenly able to pronounce “umlauts” and that crazy “ch” sound? Did they suddenly and immediately understand the nuances of the German language and realize that one can now end a sentence with a verb? Did they suddenly wear Lederhosen? Language is in the brain, of course, so did God have to “rewire” each and every person’s brain, from 5 year olds to 100 year olds? Key question; did they forget their original language … or were they bilingual, in which case, of course, the people would all STILL have a common language! Lol
WAS CONFOUNDING LANGUAGE A GOOD IDEA?
It doesn’t seem that confounding human language was all that brilliant. SAME language / culture unites … MULTICULTURALISM divides. It is significant to note that up to this point in biblical history, man had not fought against his fellow man other than in conflicts between individuals. There had been no mention of wars, no racial strife, no religious bigotry, no patriotic blood baths. Man had no reason to gang up and attack other groups of men. At that time, man was not at war with his fellow man and all men communicated freely in one tongue. It was this free communication which God knew he must put an end to if he planned on keeping men enslaved. Brilliant!
IS GOD BIPOLAR?
I ask this because thousands of years later in the New Testament book of Acts (2:1-11), God has a totally different agenda. This agenda is the antithesis of Babel … ONE language. This is the narrative. Believers were all in one place and of one accord (just like in Babel). The story even uses the word “confounded”, but for a different reason. This time after having received the Holy Spirit, the apostles preach … and men of diverse languages hear the sermon IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. Back in Babel the plan was to separate people, and now in Acts we’re seeing the exact opposite; a great re-integration. Bad one time. Good the next time. I wish God would make up His mind.
It seems that God’s primary reason for “coming down” was not necessarily the Tower structure itself – that was merely the means to an end — but because the people of Babel wanted to “make a name for ourselves”. But, in the very next chapter it is God himself who makes Abraham’s name great. King David spends a good portion of his life making a name for himself (2 Sam 8:13) without any negative repercussions or divine reprisals. It can be really hard to figure out what God really believes / wants.
WHAT LESSON CAN WE LEARN FROM THE TOWER OF BABEL?
Are we really supposed to believe that the Builders of the tower were motivated by building a structure that could reach heaven? How stupid would that be? They built the thing on “the PLAINS of Shinar”. A FLAT plain. There were MOUNTAINS nearby which would have given them a few thousand feet head start. Lol Are we to believe that they thought they could build a structure higher than a mountain? If they really wanted to reach the heavens, wouldn’t they have built the tower on the nearest high mountain? Yes. So, there must have been a different motivation … one we will never know. However, I can speculate on what the writer of the Babel story intended.
We can all certainly agree that the end result in the Tower story is one of division (one of God’s specialties). Let’s take a very brief look at one other major example in how God divides. OK. So, God chooses one race to his people … creating Judaism in the process. God later sends a Messiah to create a second division of his people …. creating Christianity in the process. God then chooses another guy, Mohammed, to create a third division of his people …. creating Islam in the process. And don’t tell me it wasn’t God who did all this. You should know that for ALL three of these divisions, God used the angel Gabriel as the messenger. Of course, these divisions have resulted in the longest and bloodiest conflicts in human history … which continue to this very day.
So, what are we to make of all this?
The 16th century philosopher, Machiavelli, may be able to help understand what is going on. Machiavelli described how a third party could manipulate two other parties … and maintain control over them both. It works like this;
—– 1) The Ruler creates a division amongst the people.
—– 2) The Ruler does this by creating conditions which accentuate the differences between groups. This causes conflict, and so the groups fight amongst themselves rather than against the ruler.
—– 3) The Ruler hides that HE is the cause of the conflicts, going so far as to feign innocence.
—– 4) The Ruler then offers support to ALL parties involved, thus maintaining their loyalty and faith in him.
—– 5) The Ruler is now viewed as The Beneficial One – Machiavelli uses the term “concerned parent” — no matter how bad and evil The Ruler might be in reality. After all, ONLY The Ruler can help bring everyone back together. There is a steep cost, of course. Many will suffer. Few will benefit. But, no one will ever blame The Ruler … which is just the way he likes it.
Now, am I saying that God is some type of Machiavellian monster? No. But, I am saying that that’s how the writers of Scripture often portray Him. Some may not want to hear this, but I am 100% convinced that the various authors of Scripture had no clue whatsoever that they were writing Scripture. There was no voice from heaven thundering “Hezekiah! Grab a pen. Let’s write some Scripture!”. They had no clue that the words they penned would take hundreds, sometimes thousands, of years to be considered “The Word of God” … and even then, only by a fatally flawed procedure of humans voting. The Ancient Sages had even less of a clue as to how the world works, human psychology and all that, but that didn’t stop them from trying to explain it.
So they wrote stuff, lots of stuff … some of it eventually became God’s Word … based on their observations and very limited knowledge. I imagine some smart (at the time) guy trying to explain to the people how multiple languages came into being, so he fabricates a story that at one time all humanity spoke just one language (a blatant misconception). No one apparently knew better, so people believed it. They believed it for so long, that even when the truth of the matter was made know … people STILL believed it. That, my friends, is the power of propaganda, believing the temporary lie until it becomes permanent truth. So, people have a choice to make. For me, the Tower of Babel story is an interesting piece of ancient literature. Nothing more.
This is the best article you posted. you want to talk about how people get brainwashed this is it. Religion is used by the elites to keep the masses Under control . Behave now don’t question authority and when you die You get eternal happiness
flash
So you spent 20 seconds on google, found something related to language, and posted the link. Do you even casually peruse the articles you link? Of course you don’t. Excerpt from flash’s link; —
“We initially screened the proposed cognates, retaining only those in which the words kept the same reconstructed meaning across the language families, and we required a two-way correspondence in the judgement SI Text.”
Fuckin lovely. Please post post more endless, useless, annoying copy and pastes. I love when you do that.
I’m not attempting to clarify anything. I am presenting MY views on the subject. For some folks, it will clarify things. For others, it will obfuscate things, and cause them to copy and paste truly useless info. I know which camp you’re in.
“My take on your view is the ways of God are incomprehensible to Stuck/mankind therefore God must be a false construct …” ———– flash
YOUR take on MY views couldn’t be more wrong, or more absurd.
God … if he/she/it exists is, by definition, most certainly incomprehensible. How can a finite being (us) understand the ways of the eternal (God)?
However, it is NEVER people like me (agnostics) who claim to actually know what God wants. That is the EXCLUSIVE domain of people like you (Christians). — “God wants this or that”, “God says to do this or that” …. it is annoyingly presumptuous, preposterously arrogant, and supremely annoying that you have such insider-only info. Have fun preaching from the rooftop … even if it falls on deaf ears.
I am only interested in the HUMAN PERSON who wrote the story. What was his intent? Why did he write it? Who was his audience? How did the audience react to the message? That sort of thing. Even that endeavor is difficult enough. No need to complicate it a thousand-fold by also trying to figure out the mind of God.
Regarding your links. Save your time. I MIGHT click on maybe 5% of your links.
Good morning Stucky
Thanks for your post. It got me to thinking, which is one reason I hang around here.
For the sake of your argument, let’s assume the story cannot be taken as literally true, for some of the reasons you offer. Let’s assume it is a myth. By definition, myths are stories that explain some phenomenon in the natural world and/or the behavior of mankind. You interpret the myth as an attempt to explain the actions of a capricious God and an explanation of multiple languages in the world.
I don’t think those are the central lessons of this myth. The central verse is v.6 of chapter 11: And the Lord said, Behold the people are one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be withheld from them, which they have imagined to do.
In v.4, the stated purpose for building the tower (undoubtedly one of the juggernauts commonly built in Mesopotamia during that era) was to “make us a name.” Human pride, the very center of man’s sin nature, was the motivation for the effort. The purpose was a monument to man’s ingenuity, not God’s glory. There must have been an incident around this event where language was distorted in some way so that the great monument could not be finished.
Myths have enduring lessons. How enduring? I think it is pretty obvious from a reading of either history or this morning’s headlines that people can unify around the most ungodly purposes to literally wreak havoc on the world. The imagination for such folly seems infinite. “Nothing will be withheld from them which they have imagined to do.”
I find it interesting that mankind is once again speaking one language, the language of data. Do you think this knowledge and ability will instinctively be used in a common vision to spread good around the world? Why do the letters NSA pop into my head?
This is the gist of the story, man’s rebellion against God. Taken at a personal level, I know I have some high towers in my own life, places where I have pride in my own puny abilities and where I am pleased at what I can accomplish on my own.
Now I will be late for work. I’m glad you got your boy home (see, there is a God).
“Thanks for your post. It got me to thinking, ….” ———– Gayle
Well then … Mission Accomplished!!
Quick story from about 25 years ago when I was teaching an adult Sunday School class. I don’t remember most of the details, … only this; I asked an older gentleman a question. He said he doesn’t read anything — newspapers, books, etc — other than the Bible. “The Bible is the ONLY book mankind needs”, this high school grad would proudly sneer.
My ex father-in-law was even worse. His entire philosophy of rational thinking was reduced to “If it’s in the Bible, I believe it, that settles it.” No further thinking required.
Some people, such as flash, read my wack-a-doodle ideas and respond with a knee-jerk reaction. Others, such as you, actually think about it. That’s wonderful. Enjoyed your post.
Stucky and Flash arguing on TBP , it makes the world seem right, normal, and in perfect order, if only for a moment.
The brand new survey by YouGov found that 57 percent of respondents believe that the devil exists, including 72 percent of African Americans, 65 percent of Republicans and and 61 percent of women.
“For me, the Tower of Babel is an interesting piece of ancient literature. Nothing more.”
Stucky, for me the Tower of Babel story is a commonsense narrative passed on to future generations of what happens to a divided mind. To my understanding the Land of Shinar is a plane between two rivers; Tigris and Euphrates. In that time the mundane train of life must of had people living inside their head and imagination, so the objects of the outside world served to explain the workings of the mind; hence the the two rivers parting around the Land of Shinar, could have represented a divided mind.
Now lets fast forward to our time now in the 21st century. America is a vast plane between to oceans; the Atlantic and Pacific oceans. On this plane we have built a large Tower of Babel consisting of Administrative Law, Politics, and Science; with their confusing languages.
Does the American people have a divided mind? I think it is rather obvious that we do, but lets list a few of these divisions causing the confusion in the minds of the people.
Administrative law which is codified in the Uniform Commercial Code, UCC is the law of the land. How many Americans do you know that understand the UCC? And yet our courts follow this law. We have commercial courts making commercial determinations in a criminal justice system that needs to be served by common law. The Bill of Rights is common law. So our commercial courts have been a complete failure and instead of serving justice, it has filled the jails of a for profit prison system with many victimless criminals, and have not served to get reparations for the victims of crimes. People summoned to court have no; or little knowledge, of the legal language used, so massive confusion exists. Most Americans have no idea of the meaning of the language used in Administrative law but only see how they are being screwed by it. As a result the “Rule of Law” in this country is breaking down.
In Politics we have two different languages; Republican and Democrat, which most of the American people detest. These two languages are constantly up against each other in meaning so that any common interest cannot be fused together. The result is constant unending division.
Science: All departments of science has it’s own language. Government departments such as the EPA, Education, Energy, and other departments use the findings in science to make determinations but in many areas the science is incomplete or incorrect theories. Many theories are politically motivated. Reading a government report is like reading word fog. Thousands of pages of scientific and legal language for everything under the sun that could be explained with simple everyday words, have cause massive confusion to anyone reading through the typical government report on anything science based. Many scientists themselves are so far out of range of human communication with the general public because they live so deeply in their scientific jargon.
The United States has built it’s own Tower of Babel and confusion is across the land. The mind of the American people has become divided. This narrative commonsense warning speaking out of the ancient pages of the Bible tells us to wake up before we experience the same fate as the ancient people before us.
I saw rising from earth to heaven a high tower, whose top reached beyond the clouds.
Black night was all around and thunder rumbled.
And suddenly the sky opened, a thunderclap shook the whole earth, and the lightning struck the top of the tower.
Tongues of flame shot out of heaven; the whole tower filled with fire and smoke —and I saw the builders of the tower falling from its top.
“Look”, said the voice; “Nature hates deceit, and man cannot subjugate himself to her laws. Nature is patient for a long time and then suddenly with one blow she annihilates all that goes against her.
“If only men could see that almost all that they know consists of ruins of destroyed towers, perhaps they would cease to build them”
Card 16, THE TOWER, Symbolism of the Tarot
Snuggles God … if he/she/it exists is, by definition, most certainly incomprehensible. How can a finite being (us) understand the ways of the eternal (God)?
Why didn’t you say in the first place instead of going all babble brook on TBP?
If we the irrational, could understand the mind of God, then we would be Gods…..or at least Carl Sagan.
Christianity has been bastardized to the point of almost meaningless in terms of using the word to describe ones beliefs.Nowadays when one refers to a Christian, it is in the context of those who believe it’s God’s will to kill Persians, Arabs, Japs , Chinese or anyone other nationality that isn’t a George Bush Christian..and that’s ‘ shame, but for lack of a better word.
And, for the sake of clarity, God’s will can be known via commandments as apposed to the interpretation of those seeking power,thrills or a position in a peer group.
E.g…the Ten Commandments or one of my favorites, so called Christian warmongers and their political leaders seem to always overlook..
http://biblehub.com/matthew/19-18.htm
Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
Is Jesus’ will not clear in this scripture?
For you to go on a Janet Yellen mimicry rant about how the entire bible is to be dissed as B/S because as you claim no truth can be known is akin to loading your wagon up with more horseshit than your 6” inch mule can haul….metaphorically speaking of course.
Sensttti…Soemitme the love shown on TBP is overwhelming ,even for the sappy manboobish.
Snuggles, God….not the God of Snuggles ..just thought I’d clear that up/
Stuck- Regarding your links. Save your time. I MIGHT click on maybe 5% of your links.
Suit yourself Mister Inquiring Mind Agnostic..
Isn’t this beating a dead horse?
OF COURSE Biblical stories are bullshit, even a 7th grade level reader understands that. The Bible is Aesop’s Fables as written by Jews (filtered through centuries of power-hungry Anglo-types.) It’s a sad commentary you felt you had to correct this here, of all places. Are the deep thinkers here that shallow?
Im working on reading the links flash posted. They are well thought out, logical, and offer a view by a believer. A much better fit for me and a hearty TYVM to flash for the links and to stucky for inspiring flash!!
flash
I have an incredibly inquiring mind. I just don’t need YOUR bullshit links. So solly. Don’t take it personally.
Notquite brite , and you know the bible is seven grade bullshit how?…by attending classes on seventh grade bullshit ? Are you degreed in bullshit or is it an amateur practice?
Sorry Stuck , wouldn’t want to put your agnostism in jeopardy.
Thunderbird
I find it fascinating that you and I can read the same passage and find opposite truths (the pitfalls of a divided mind vs. the dangers of unified minds in pursuit of ungodly goals). This is one reason the Word is such a treasure; it speaks truth needed for each soul that studies it, and also different truths to people at different stages of life. It is a bottomless well of truth which cannot be fully comprehended in a lifetime of study.
I was also reminded that people who cannot deal with apparent contradictions have a hard time accepting Christianity. One refuge for this mindset is sticking to the concrete level of Scripture, never venturing into the abstract, and I think the father-in-law that Stucky mentions is an example of this.
@Flash,
Interesting twist of my words there–you are INDEED a Christian.
Actually, the Bible is not EVEN “seven grade bullshit”; that’s giving all those ancient sheep herders (fuckers?) too much credit.
But since you seem intent on defending the fantasies of that cobbled together tome, implying that its stories are reflective of some reality bearing any relationship to ours, and that we ALL should act accordingly on YOUR belief, let me lay it out for you: it ain’t the word of god just because you say so. You’re welcome to be a fool if you want, you’re welcome to believe the OBVIOUS metaphors of pre-modern minds have ANYTHING to say to us today (god has been dead for over a century, you know), but you should also EXPECT me to call you a fool, and view you as an ideological adversary that is holding our civilization in thrall. The Abraham religions have ALWAYS been about control; they are enslavers of the human spirit, not its liberator, and the precarious position we find ourselves in today are a DIRECT result of the Big Three’s malign influence on society.
On a GOOD day, the Bible is the mistranslation of thousands of years of oral tradition inexactly codified by superstitious misogynists thousands of years ago. It never has been, nor ever should be, anything more than a storybook that parents have to explain to their children as “something from long ago, before we knew stuff.” It’s obvious failure as a moral compass is only perpetuated by minds polluted with the inertia of intellectual laziness.
My goodness Stuck, I just love the way your mind thinks about these things. Appeals to my inner geek and rationalist.
I need to go back and re-read your article without interruptions, hub’s out of town, niece is in town visiting and her and my son are continuously in the office to bother me – mainly about things my hub has done that they have now found and/or have been instructed to make right.
Since the customers sure as hell ain’t bothering us (Llpoh, you guys noticing this slow down? After Labor Day our phones have nearly completely died, it is looking like a bleak winter if things don’t change soon), I figured I could read this, but alas, blah, blah, blah, bless their hearts…lol
Anyway, I was partially discussing this with them, reading a few choice passages and listening to their thoughts.
My niece was well schooled by my mother, she fears for her eternal soul when she should be more worried about her physical self, as in what in the hell is a 19 year old in a town of 2000 going to do when she quit the best possible gig available – twice.
My son, also schooled by my mom, now does not believe in anything beyond the physical world, he has his reasons, I just listen and tell my thoughts.
Your analysis of the meanings held underneath the myths, things like human nature, mankind at THAT time, scientific status then, is fabulous. I once did the same for the great flood and based it upon the height of earth’s landmarks. This stuff intrigues the hell out of me (pun intended).
Thanks for this Stuck, wish things were lots different and we were close enough to have semi-drunken philosophical talks, it has been years since I’ve had someone that makes me think so deeply.
Again, I’m in awe and thanks Stuck.
and Flash, VDES and i truly am hoping their is a god that cares, Mr. Day and his followers would surely be found out for the hatred and bigotry and ignorance that reigns in their own hearts. Peace dude, acceptance is a godly trait, just ask the freakin’ pope.
Damn WPES
Point of clarification:
The last line of my retort to Flash reads:
” It’s obvious failure as a moral compass is only perpetuated by minds polluted with the inertia of intellectual laziness.”
That isn’t exactly what I meant. THIS is what I meant:
“It’s obvious failure notwithstanding, it is perpetuated as a moral compass only by minds polluted with the inertia of intellectual laziness.”
Or, in simpler terms: using the Bible to guide moral behavior is stupid.
My apologies. Having a job frequently gets in the way of fully-formed copy….
If you ascribe to the ancient aliens theory, maybe the tower was a school of mathematics. This being the case everyone would speak the same language and would set free humanity to build and learn on their own (as we have supposedly done). If the aliens had not torn the people from this, would we, as humanity be further along? Would we be in space with the aliens now?? just wondering
TeresaE
My goodness … thank you for the most kind thoughts.
“Your analysis of the meanings held underneath the myths …. at THAT time” —- TeresaE
Bingo! +10,000 Someone originally wrote it to their immediate audience. I’m not so much interested in modern day interpretations thousands of years after the fact because the story inevitably grows and grows beyond its original intent. There may be some use for that, although I’m not sure what it is.
What did the original author intend and how did the immediate audience process it? That’s been my main goal in understanding all biblical stories, not just Babel. BTW … that’s what people like Flash simply won’t (can’t ?) accept.
Where’s bb ?
“Isn’t this beating a dead horse?” ———– Notquite
One of these days I will do a full expose’ on The Great Flood. It will be at least twice as long as the Babel article. Stick around. I’m sure you’ll love it.
The rastafari believe that the tower of Babel was the symbol of the end of the black man’s rule over the Earth. At that time (3500BC) Africa was the center of the world and the black man was the rulers of the world while white men in Europe were still living in the woods.
Then the reign of the white man came and then the yellow man would rule the world. The entire Tower of Babel story is entirely symbolic. You overthink religion way too much.
9/11 is Tower of Babel part II symbolizing the end of the reign of the white man and the beginning of the reign of the yellow man.
This is rastafair belief, the Tower of Babel is a very important story to their religion.
If you do not have God to protect you and bless you and your family then you and your family are very susceptible to the devil’s influence. It’s not hard to see it throughout our society if you just look.
@Stucky – At their heart, I’ve always assumed they were parables, and ones that were deeply routed in other mythology.
As for this particular one, T-bird’s is probably the one I agree with most.
As for the meanings it had during its origination….impossible. We cannot know this. We do not even know what the story actually was at that time. Too many translations back and forth.
“And, for the sake of clarity, God’s will can be known via commandments “ — Anonymous
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Really? Are you sure about that? All of them, or just the ones you pick and choose?
I read this book last year and posted the link (at very bottom) before. A VERY funny and witty book. (TeresaE, I think you’d love it.) The basic premise is that the author LITERALLY lives a full year according to laws in the bible. The situations he finds himself in are just hilarious.
Anonymous, I present to you just 5 commandments;
1)– Of them you may eat: the locust according to its kind.
2)– Neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.
3)– You shall not round the corners of your heads.
4)– Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place
6)– When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand.
So, Anonymous .. eating bugs, a strange dress code, a weird haircut, never clowning around, and cutting your old lady’s hands off if she grabs my StuckyNuts ……….. do tell me what that says about God and/or his commandments.
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The tower of Babel is metaphor, people worshiping a false god, and what happens to those that do. That’s all I got on the subject, and it’s probably wrong. I just wanted to make a comment, since Stuck put in so much work and effort on this post.
I think they we’re still beheading infidels back then
[img]http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples_resource/image/thumb/25636[/img]
Gayle:
“I find it fascinating that you and I can read the same passage and find opposite truths (the pitfalls of a divided mind vs the dangers of unified minds in pursuit of ungodly goals.”
The mind of man has never been unified. It consists of a population of “I”s that sponsor different groups of thoughts in us. We call that host of characters ego; but in reality there is not one ego, but a group of egos that step up to express themselves as “I” every chance they get.
The Tower of Babel is about this inner cast of characters in us called “I”. As you say: “This is one reason the Word is such a treasure, it speaks truth needed for each soul that studies it.”
Each of us has a divided mind. When the mind of each one of us finally becomes undivided and there is one real “I” in us then we will be able to work together unified.
Until then the narrative of the Tower of Babel is warning us that divided mind cannot reach the Kingdom of God.
The reason so many cannot fathom the writings of the Bible is because they are stuck in the lies in their own minds. These lies were installed from their education while young when personally (an acquired being that is not them) was formed in them around their original essence. They have been trained to look without for truth when the truth has always been within them. They look out there and the impressions they receive through their eyes is recorded on their gray matter as perceptions modified by their education (which is flawed) so the concepts coming from those aggregate perceptions contain lies. If they learned to look within and not follow their tainted and biased education them the perceptions formed in their brain would create true concepts.
The Tower of Babel is composed of lies from the false personality of people working together with divided minds. When nature has had enough of this it destroys the tower.
Look at what is going on in the United States of America when it comes to divided mind and the lies that taint our perceptions of what is going on around us.
“As for the meanings it had during its origination….impossible.” ——TPC
Not necessarily true.
Historians, scholars, archeologists, etc. etc. do so all the time for non-biblical writings; We can and do know the original intent of Egyptian hieroglypics, Aristotle, Plato, Gautama Buddha, Caesar(s), and countless others from ages past. Why not bible stories? Yes it is more difficult task because of issues such as translation and scant supporting corroboration texts, but it is not an impossible one.
“The tower of Babel is metaphor, people worshiping a false god, and what happens to those that do.” ————–AWD
The evilness back then compared to today is like One is to One Trillion.
Why did God only kill people and destroy cultures thousands of years ago? Why has he taken a 2,500 year break? As I’ve said before, he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.
I seem to think God has opened the gates of hell, let out the devil/anti-christ (Obama), and let out all the people that have been in hell since mankind’s beginning. They are walking the earth now, with a fresh chance for redemption. It’s obvious to me they don’t want redemption, but rather to follow the seven deadly sins to the letter. There is so much evil, it’s hard to find another explanation.
Of course, the end will be final judgement, when Jesus comes back (or some likeness thereof) and decides the fate of the just and unjust, and they say it’ll be like heaven on earth afterwards (for those that survive). God always has a purpose and a plan. He gives us enough rope to hang ourselves, but he’s always there to save us if we ask. God always answers prayers, “yes” “no” or “wait”. 99.9% of the time it’s the third. We have to wait and see how things play out. The devil must have his due.
Towers come down when man moves away from God. Read “The Harbinger” for a clear understanding.
This discussions are always entertaining. The fact is the existence of God cannot be proven or disproved bc the concepts encompassed by such deity (all powerfull, all seeing, eternal) are really incomprehensible to our mind (we can pretend to understand anyways). Believers and Atheists merely grab whatever evidence they can to try to prove that which gives their mind comfort.
I can’t speak for those others Stuck, I haven’t studied them in any depth whatsoever.
As for biblical stories, I think the crux of my argument is that so many people have had a hand, or an interest in editing them. Too many have used it as a method of control over the years, or in politics.
Egyptian hieroglyphics? We read the language, but I doubt its spot on, though you have to admit that without the Rosetta Stone it would have also been “impossible.” I’d chalk this one up to luck personally.
The others I would have to investigate to form an opinion as to their accuracy…..time I won’t be investing 🙂
One last thing in reference to the comment above. That is not to say that one is right or wrong. It’s just what we choose to believe. In my view, religion is no different from economics or medicine or any other realm of knowledge, in that some will use it to further their agendas and abuse it, and some will use to help others.
Stucky I see you took your time writing this and overall you did a good job.My( opinion)is that God is punishing mankind because of their foolish PRIDE and Idolatry which always are together .So it was God’s judgment and warning to the rest of us.They were trying to build a one world system of government and religious beliefs.This is why God judged them.Any one world system of one government ,economic and religious beliefs will be under God’s wrath and in Satan’s control.It will be doomed to fail from the start.
“Believers and Atheists merely grab whatever evidence they can to try to prove that which gives their mind comfort.” ———— Spinalator
If I wanted comfort I would have remained a born-again Believer. Going to heaven, living forever, ruling over angels, direct contact with God, streets of gold, your family with you, .. maybe even 72 virgins for my viewing pleasure ………. that’s seriously comforting.
Believing, as I do, that this is all there is, while comforting at times, is not so comforting at other times. I can only speak for myself but I certainly don’t base my beliefs using “comfort” as a criteria. But, you are correct, many others do.
This passage is supposed to be read with an ironic tone. For a visual, imagine He is looking down upon the earth, the tower Babel sticking out of the earth like a bread crumb out o the carpet. He gets on His knees, takes out a magnification glass, takes a look at it and says: “Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them.”
Everything is a business model and so just like Halliburton and Lockheed Martin, some folks made a lot of money convincing others they needed to buy a tower’s worth of their bricks.
And then, after the fall, their egos were too huge to admit the scam so they eulogized it into a fairy tale of devotion.
Mission accomplished!
There is one thing in Space that can’t be denied and it is waiting for all of us. And a belief or non belief in God is not going to matter to it; because it is going to devour us anyway… It is a BLACK HOLE!
Well, supposedly the languages of the builders of Babel were confused because they were constructing a tower that would reach heaven…nevermind that they wold have passed out long before reaching the limits of Earths atmosphere.
But it is true that human language, even today, continues to morph so that a thousand or two years from now this internet wisdom will seem like monkey babble. Not that you tried to build a tower to heaven.
In other words the builders were confused because they lacked oxyen to their brains.
But i suppose someone will come along and claim that people who fly on jets are pagans, praying to a false God, that deserve to die because they sought to soar with the Gods.
Bizarro world is like that.
T4C
I watched both videos. lol Both were great.
The average Christian .. also being an average American … is just like the average American, dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to really knowing what they believe. They even refer to themselves as SHEEP!
How the average Holy Sheep views Judaism; —- 1) God calls upon Abraham. 2) Abraham goes to Israel. 3) A brand new and unique religion gets started. 4) The end.
Never mind that even the name “Israel” is rooted in a Canaanite word. Or that “Moses” is an Egyptian name. Or that every book after Joshua was written AFTER the Hebrews spent FOUR HUNDRED YEARS in Babylonian exile with NO Scriptures at their disposal.
Outside sources influencing, shaping, and becoming part and parcel of Judaism (and subsequently, Christianity)?? Nah!!! Couldn’t happen. Get thee behind me Satan! lol
Well, this has been a whole lotta fun.
Probably my last post of the day. I have stuff to prepare. My son arrives at 9:35PM. Yeah, it takes 36 hours to get from Holland, MI to Newark, NJ on the el-cheapo ticket. Amtrak. I love ’em.
Stucky did you attend the Frankfurt school of higher criticism.You do know goal was to destroy west by ….criticizing every sphere of western culture possible ,to de-stabilize society, to engineer collapse….by destroying all believe in the bible…..I think they accomplished most of their goals….These guys were real devil worshipers masquerading as high power intellectuals.Kind of like some people on this site….be careful don’t want you become Satan’s agent.
Damn cell phone ,going have to get eye glasses .Sorry for my mistakes when posting.
Gayle says:
“Good morning Stucky
You interpret the myth as an attempt to explain the actions of a capricious God and an explanation of multiple languages in the world. I don’t think those are the central lessons of this myth.”
I agree with Gayle. Also, I prefer not to get tripped up on whether it is factual or not.
Stucky, you are one funny dude. I appreciate your coming back to the themes which drew me to this site in the first place. Thanks a lot. One minor quibble: “so he had an angel with a flaming sword drive them out of the Garden to prevent that”. Actually, they were evicted for disobedience but not at the point of a sword. They were instructed to tend the garden and live off the fruit of the trees save for one tree. What kind of manager converts the owner’s property to his own uses?
Anyway, back to Gayle’s quote above, the story is a parenthetical comment inside the narrative on the different nations and how they came to live apart and speak different languages. (chapter 10 mentions how the people were required to spread out and populate the earth as known then.)
The story lists the various nations but, in between, it tells of a minor rebellion that god or gods put down.
The fools decided of their own accord to build a city with a fancy tower reaching into the heavens. They expressed the idea that they did not want to go forth and fill the earth. A bit later, Abram is sent forth from his land. He proves to be obedient. When god rejects saul, the reason he gives is, he wants obedience and not sacrifice.
We cannot judge god crazy because we do not understand his mercy. God is a god of second chances. All through the bible we see god reconsidering though not changing his purpose of getting man into heaven. Adam fails, and god gives him the ability to have children intended to replace him. Cain fails, we get Seth. The whole slew of people fail and we get Noah. Noah and his offspring fail and we get Abram. Saul fails, we get David. Solomon fails, we get Jesus.
Man also makes multiple attempts to reach heaven. Adam buys into the eating of strange fruit, Cain through sacrifice, first of vegetables and later of an innocent man. Noah’s kids want to build a stairway to heaven, the Israelites want to worship an image. God gives them a law they cannot keep so that they may understand that they cannot make it into heaven of their own merit. He had only given them the law on the tablets but since they set about to worship a golden calf, the law got more stringent and exacting.
Jesus is announced as one who will set people free of the law. He says, I will fertilize this poor producing vine and put my law in their hearts. No more tithing of mints or marrying your ugly widowed sister in law.
This is the gist of the bible story and getting stuck in legalistic interpretation is foolish.
Now I read above that some folks, a large percentage, believe in the devil. I am sure a lower percentage is convinced of god’s existence. Logically speaking, if a person believes in satan but has doubts about god, such a person considers satan the supreme being since he doubts there is anyone in existence greater than the satan he believes in.
This too is god’s plan. Jesus says the word is only meant for those able to receive it. He says that the message is spoken clearly to the chosen ones, but only in parables to the non-believers, so that hearing they will not hear, seeing they will not see, lest they be healed (and live forever)…Jesus is the second Adam and the gospel is the second tree of life.
That fuckwad that said the bible is a crutch for lazy minds does not know a damned thing or maybe that is all he knows. Blind fucker.
I said it before, I was blind but now I see, just like the song says. But if you want to call me every name in the book, I am sure I deserve it. As David says, my sin is always before me.
Peace to you Stucky. Your one badass fucker because you have faith that your son will heal, god loves peeps who have faith. Waiting for your next installment.
hey I got a thumbs down from one of the Satanists, cool!
+10 Juan( my thumbs up button does not work…thanks Norton)
Man is not a learning animal ( as the annals of history will attest) , but God still tries…..another trial , another chance, another self-inflicted destruction…wash , rinse, dry…repeat.
Ecclesiastes 1:9
9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.
FWIW, God has been known to change his mind .
Genesis 18
New International Version (NIV)
20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord.[d] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare[e] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 The Lord said, “If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake.”
…..and the Hebrew bible is not the Christian bible…different commands for different folks..
notquitesobrite–Actually, the Bible is not EVEN “seven grade bullshit”; that’s giving all those ancient sheep herders (fuckers?) too much credit.
I’m sure you could have taught all these non- thinking fools a thing or two about ancient codex…especially Issac Newton ..what a fool he was.
List of Christian thinkers in science
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science
Isaac Newton (1643–1727) GodfreyKneller-IsaacNewton-1689.jpg He is regarded as one of the greatest scientists and mathematicians in history. Newton’s study of the Bible and of the early Church Fathers were among his greatest passions, though he consistently refused to swear his allegiance to the church. He wrote Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St. John (Nontrinitarianism).[62] Isaac Newton’s religious views are considered by some to be close to deism and several biographers and scholars labeled him as a deist who is strongly influenced by Christianity.[63][64][65][66] However, he differed from strict adherents of deism in that he invoked God as a special physical cause to keep the planets in orbits.[67]