Career Advice You Won’t Hear From Anyone Else – Part 1

Reading time: 2,340 words, 6 pages, 5 to 9 minutes

There is much career advice available, especially on the internet. Much of it’s a lot of crap about “maximizing personal growth” and “following your passion” and other gibberish. I’m going to give you career advice you won’t get from anyone else. I’ll give it to you good and hard, and I won’t pull my punches so if you want icing sugar blown up your butt, you’re on the wrong website.

This is on-the-job advice for the job you’ve landed. I’m not covering job searches, resumes, references, interviews, etc. An internet search will yield plenty of that and some of it is quite good. This article is what you need to know once you have the job.

Many of the lessons below I learned the hard way during a 42-year corporate career with a three-year break for a private commercial real estate venture. Going back even further, I’ve had numerous part-time jobs beginning at age 11 as a baby-sitter and age 13 as a newspaper carrier. At age 15 and beyond I was as a stockroom boy, grocery bagger, theater usher, construction laborer, railroad maintenance gang, postal sorter, truck driver, furniture salesman, renovator and probably a few I’ve forgotten. As well, I worked summers underground in numerous positions in four different hard-rock mines to pay for university tuition, books, and room & board. As you can see, I’ve done a fair bit!

Note: For ease of reading I’ll use the masculine ‘he’ or ‘him’ and screw the cumbersome politically correct nouns. If you have a problem with this; that’s your problem, not mine. I hate when my reading comes to a screeching halt dealing with weird shit.

Below are the things I learned on the job. They’re sorted in alphabetical order to make searching a bit easier.

3 Ups – Sometimes the best advice is the simplest.

  • Get up.
  • Dress up.
  • Show up. 90% of success is just showing up.

After Graduation – Congratulations on your graduation!

Now, forget everything you think you know because your REAL education starts on your first job. It’s on-the-job training, and it never stops. If you want to get ahead and stay ahead, you’ll never stop learning either on the job or in your free time as well.

Ask, Don’t Tell – Keep your mouth shut and your ears open except to ask questions. When given an assignment and you’re not sure of the objective, it’s crucial you ask your boss for clarification. You cannot hit a target if you don’t know what it is. On the other hand, the boss is busy and won’t like petty questions especially ones that your coworkers could answer or  found with an internet search.

Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Asking isn’t a sign of weakness; it’s a sign of strength because it takes courage to ask. And, remember to return the favor

Most people want to talk. Few people want to listen. Don’t take it personally; it’s just the way we’re wired so take advantage of one of our many foibles. Here’s an example.

As the Corporate Logistics Manager in a company I once worked for, representatives (sales people) from transport companies would visit. Sales people like to talk. They hate silence, so I gave them the silent treatment. I was pleasant, I nodded, I asked the occasional question to steer the dialogue, but I reined in my ego and let them talk. And, I learned things. They talked about themselves, they talked about their company, they talked about their competitors, and they also revealed things about our customers as well as our competitors (good market intelligence.) When they praised me as a great conversationalist, I tried not to laugh; they had done most of the talking.

Ask, don’t tell customers as well. You’ll get a lot more traction by asking them questions instead of overloading them with bullshit. The answers they give you will help you steer the dialogue with further questions.

Assumptions – When you ASSUME something, you make an ASS out of U and ME. Always beware of assumptions. Always verify your and others’ assumptions. It’s not easy, but as with most things the more you do it, the easier it becomes.

Assumptions are especially evident when hearsay is involved. The reason hearsay evidence is not allowed in court is that it’s not reliable. Person ‘A’ says Person ‘B’ said, or did, or committed to doing something. Always verify with Person ‘B’ because Person ‘A’ might have misunderstood.

Avoid making Person ‘A’ look bad by telling Person ‘B’ that you are asking for confirmation of what Person ‘A’ said. Chances are you’ll also pick up important details that person ‘A’ missed. Sometimes Person “A” was entirely wrong.

Attitude – Never underestimate the right attitude. I’ve taken several wilderness survival courses as well as a winter survival course. The most important attributes of survival are:
1) Attitude

2) Attitude

3) Attitude

All the gear in the world or all the skill in the world is useless with the wrong attitude. The same holds true for corporate survival or any type of survival for that matter.

A company I once worked for avoided hiring city people. They preferred small-town or farm kids. Why? Because citiots had an entitlement attitude (“What’s in it for me?”) whereas the farm or small town kids had a can-do attitude.

When I hired, I hired attitude, not skill. We can teach skills. Nobody can teach attitude. You either have it, or you don’t.

So what’s the right attitude? NEVER GIVE UP! If you give up, you might as well bend over and kiss it good-bye.

Avoid Distractions – Many people in this instant-gratification world have short attention spans. Avoid distractions like moving graphic screen-savers or active, flashing gadgets. They distract not only yourself, but they distract anyone you’re talking to face-to-face. You want their full attention and not preoccupied with some ingenious device.

Avoid ‘New Guy’ Bragging – When you start a new job, it’s tempting to brag about what you’ve done or what you think you know. Check your ego and don’t brag! Be humble and remind yourself that you’re new and you don’t know shit.

  1. Everyone hates a braggart, and if you’re the new guy, they’ll find ways to sabotage you.
  2. You’ve got a lot to learn and little time to learn it. Few people have the time to teach you so if you brag; they’ll hang you out to dry.

Biases – We are all afflicted with dozens (ok, hundreds) of biases. Learn about them. If you don’t know your shortcomings, they’ll bite you in the ass both personally and on the job. The internet is loaded with too many articles to list although I’ve written several articles about some of the most dangerous biases.

Normalcy Bias

Complementary Projection

Conspiracy Thinking

Be Bold – If I could sum up everything I’ve learned in two words, I would advise you to be bold. Nothing good ever comes to those who sit on their asses and don’t take chances. Not taking risks is risky to both your personal life and your career.

You will sometimes fail. You will make mistakes. No one is 100% perfect. The only perfect employee is one that doesn’t do anything. However, you’ll never get ahead by doing the same old thing. Whether you succeed or fail, not only will you learn, but you’ll show management you’re willing to put your reputation on the line to get things done.

Say, ‘Yes’ to invitations, meeting new people, challenges or learning something new. Yes is how you got your first job and how you’ll get the next one.

You will never have all the information you need before you act. Whatever you think of Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, he was right in saying that if he waited for all his ducks to line up, he’d still be waiting.

Brain-storming – Two heads are better than one. There will be times you’re at the end of your rope and just can’t find the solution. A quick, informal meeting with knowledgeable co-workers whether it’s in the lunchroom, in the hallway or their office can provide ideas and direction. Don’t forget to say thanks and give credit where it’s due.

Burn-out – Burning the candle at both ends is like a jet’s afterburners. You can only do it so long before you burn-out. On the job, you will be admonished to work harder and produce more. You will be asked, “What did you do for [me, us, shareholders] today?”

Screw that! Don’t fall for it. You don’t want to work harder and risk burning out. You want to work smarter, not harder. There are ways; find them.

My Grandfather was a doctor who attended numerous deathbeds. He said many people died wishing they had spent more time with family, friends and loved ones. He knew of no one who died wishing they’d spent more time at work.

Career Choice – When I was young, I used to envy friends and classmates who knew exactly what they wanted to be when they grew up. I’m close to retirement now, and I still don’t know what I want to be, so don’t feel bad if you don’t know either. I managed to earn a good living simply by being good at whatever I did.

Almost every one of my classmates who knew what they wanted to be has suffered a mid-life crisis, job crisis, turmoil, wrong career change or divorce. To this day, I don’t understand why and I’m still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up.

Carry Something – Working underground in hard-rock mines, the number one priority is getting to surface alive at the end of the shift. Another thing I learned is never walk anywhere empty-handed.

Before you go somewhere, think about what you could carry that will save you or someone else the trip. This applies to any job, not just mining. Not only does it save time and effort, but it also shows you’re organized, busy and not screwing the pooch.

If you’re in a hurry and don’t want to be bothered, carry a clipboard and walk fast.

Changing Jobs – The best time to change a job is when you already have one. That way, you’re under less pressure, and you’re less likely to make an impulsive decision. As well, you’re more attractive to a prospective employer if you’re already employed and less likely to look desperate.

Complainers – There are two dangerous types of complainers.

  1. Nobody likes co-workers who complain and belly-ache all the time. Complainers get ostracized, and without a network, their career dies a slow death. Either shut up, fix it or get out.
  2. We should embrace customers who complain because they’re giving us a second chance to make it right. The dangerous ones are those who don’t complain. They turn around, walk out, never return, and they tell all their friends. It costs many times more to develop a new customer than hanging on to an old one.

Create Your Job – Once you’ve established yourself in a company as a can-do person, don’t be afraid to tailor the job to your fit. I helped to create the last several positions I held. Yes, I’ll do this. No, I won’t do that, and these are the reasons why.

In school, we’re told to spend more time on our weakest subjects. In the workplace, it’s the opposite. By focusing on our strengths, we become experts in those areas. If you spread yourself too thin by trying to do everything you never reach the full potential of your strengths.

I turned down duties that I felt were thankless or better done by someone who excelled in areas that would take me too long to learn. No one can be an expert in everything.

Criticism – When you’re criticized, and you will be, consider it a gift. It’s an opportunity for improvement.

Nobody likes criticizism, and you may not agree with the person or the delivery, but there are always nuggets of truth you can glean from criticism. Bite your tongue, don’t argue, but do ask questions to get a better understanding.

Determination – Whether you’re advancing your career or looking for a career change, determination is critical. Enroll in courses, acquire new skills, increase your knowledge, seek mentors, or seeking other ways to progress in your career. If you’re not moving ahead, you’re falling behind.

Don’t Burn Bridges – I left a 19-year corporate career on good terms. As much as I wanted to tell a few people where to go, I bit my tongue. Little did I know that after a successful three-year venture, my old job came open again when my replacement hadn’t worked out, and the new boss called and asked if I’d be interested.

After having been on my own in this dark, cruel world working half days (12 hours a day), I was indeed very interested. Not only did I negotiate a higher salary, but my talents were now more appreciated than before.

Effective Communication

  1. Talking face to face is the best way to communicate because 90% of communication involves body language and tone of voice.
  2. The telephone is 2nd You get tone of voice, but no body language.
  3. Texting, emails, etc. is a lousy 3rd as you get neither body language nor tone of voice. Avoid sarcasm until they develop a sarcasm font.

Never hesitate to walk down the hall and talk face-to-face or pick up the phone and call. Text and email suck unless you want to copy numerous people.

Nowadays, most people hide behind their computer screens. You’ll stand out from the crowd if you communicate effectively. This is difficult for young people in the electronic age because many never learned to socialize well.

Painful as it might be, you must learn to communicate effectively. Ours is the information age, so communicating keeps you in the loop.

***************

This is the first of a three-part series, so stay tuned for Part 2.

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48 Comments
Maggie
Maggie
June 3, 2017 5:53 pm

Gerold… I know you hoped to provide some upbeat advice for out of work folks, but gotta tell ya… it was a rough day to post career advice here. I think about half of us are headed to the Gulag, while EC is planning his getaway to southern parts unknown.

Maggie O'Bigguns
Maggie O'Bigguns
June 3, 2017 6:14 pm

EC is absconding? That’s news to me.

Maggie
Maggie
  Maggie O'Bigguns
June 3, 2017 6:23 pm

Moran.

Annie
Annie
June 3, 2017 6:24 pm

I’ve decided that I’ve had enough of my line of work after 30+ years so I’m planning on retiring (at least from this type of work). Part of my reason is that I’m just tired of this work, but a big part is my current manager and his boss are the worst managers I’ve ever had and they’ve soured me even more than I already was on every aspect of the high tech world. I’m already telling them exactly what I think of them at every opportunity and I will continue doing that for as long as I’m there (which will probably be a very short time). It feels SO GOOD to do this after 30+ years of being polite and holding my tongue. This manager has either been deliberately killing my career since the first day I was transferred into his group – while claiming that he was doing nothing of the sort – or he is the stupidest person I’ve ever known and killed my career accidentally. I gave him the benefit of the doubt at first, but I don’t think he can possibly be that stupid, so I’m responding in kind. I have no idea why he decided to crap on me this bad, but that doesn’t really matter, does it? Payback is a bitch and he’s learning that I’m a much better bitch than he thought I was. My career is already down the tubes, but it’s looking like his is not far behind.

Career advice to managers. If you treat those below you with respect they will respond in kind. If you treat those below you like trash they will also respond in kind. Not always to your face like I’m doing, but they will find a way.

Ed
Ed
  Annie
June 3, 2017 7:48 pm

Annie, another note to managers: the people below you can ruin you as quickly as the people above you can.

Suzanna
Suzanna
  Gerold
June 3, 2017 11:24 pm

Gerold,
that is a very kind response to give Annie.
That advice you gave? Great ideas and
suggestions for sure. Marvelous advice for
young people. So thanks. I will look for part 2.

Annie
Annie
  Suzanna
June 4, 2017 11:53 am

Thanks Gerold and Suzanna!

One thing that I want to make clear, if I hadn’t already decided to exit this career and retire from high tech altogether I would not be acting the way that I am even given how bad my current management is. If I was younger and/or I had a family to support I would have just kept my mouth shut and immediately started looking for another job, either within the company (if I really liked the company) or outside or both. With any career it is likely you will run into the same people over and over again and anything you do that can be perceived as negative WILL come back to haunt you for the rest of your career. I always knew that people in the industry were connected but now with linked in, even with the few contacts that I have, it is pretty obvious that anything like what I’m doing is a career limiting (if not ending) move because they all know each other, even the ones that I would not have expected.

But, ending this career in a spectacular fashion will not prevent me from putting in an awesome vegetable garden, taking care of the animals, and puttering around the house, which is my current plan. I’m not worried about the lack of salary since we’ve been gradually paying things off and simplifying our lives so we can get along on much less. The vegetable garden may have to wait until next year though, since it has been so cold and wet (today we have a little sun but tomorrow the forecast is for showers and a high (yes high) of 56) we haven’t even tilled, much less planted, the garden space yet. Damn that global warming!

Annie

Maggie
Maggie
June 3, 2017 6:25 pm

Now, those ladies know how to make a political statement.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
June 3, 2017 6:39 pm

Most of that advice will serve those who have a job well. I could simplify it it with:

1. Show up. More importantly, show up on time. Even more important, show up a few minutes early. It will be noticed just as surely as showing up late will be noticed. Stay a few minutes late as well even if it’s just to spruce up your work area.

2. Shut up. Most people, whether they know it or not are their own worst enemy when their pie-hole is flapping. The best advantage to shutting up is that it allows your ear holes to fully dilate so you can hear. This will pay enormous dividends with every passing year.

3. Do the job you’ve been hired to do. Once you become proficient at that, ask your boss for more work to do. If the “in crowd” doesn’t like that……fuck ’em. Be polite but work circles around them. You are there first and foremost to improve your position in life by improving the bosses position in life. Do that and you’ll be ahead of everyone else there. Become indispensable. You will likely be rewarded for your efforts. If not, ask. If you’re still not being rewarded, move on.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  IndenturedServant
June 3, 2017 7:41 pm

To IndenturedServant,
Agree with #1 and #2, #3 can simplify to do your job, become proficient, deliver more than you promise, make improvements, ask for more responsibility, be polite and respectful to all people.

muck about
muck about
June 3, 2017 7:59 pm

After a 50 year career working all over the world, I’ve found out the best way to progress is to do your job x2. Then when you finally slip into a supervisory position , find the smartest, hungriest and best person working for you and teach him/her everything he/she needs to know to do your job.

Then, when the phone rings (and it will) and your boss says, “Jeez – we’ve got this new contract and it pays twice what you make now but who will take your place?” Then, you point to the person you trained, pack your bags and go have fun somewhere new.

Worked for me for 50 years. Never spent more than three years on any one job (unless I wanted to) and spent time all over the world at someone else expense!

Believe me, it works.

ssgconway
ssgconway
June 3, 2017 8:42 pm

After doing nearly 300 mass layoff events as an outplacement services coordinator, I can tell you that even the best people can lose their jobs. The best are the ones who need me the least, however, and for many of the reasons cited above. They know how to make themselves liked (the good way, by being productive) and useful. They develop their skills and get a name around town as someone who just shows up and gets it done. (I have a co-worker whom I compare to former Yankees second baseman Willie Randolph; instead of being the latest ‘star of the show,’ he just showed up, year by year, hitting .275, making all the plays, and quietly making his team better with ‘small ball.’ He’s been a manager since retiring….some of the former superstars never got asked.)

One thing really stands out here: We’ve had this debate at work for years between those who want to have our customers work to overcome their weaknesses and people like myself who urge playing to one’s strong suit. No one paid Babe Ruth to steal bases; become the best you can at the two or three things that define your success and you’ll likely have a landing spot if the need ever arises.

Gerold, this is one of the best things I have read here. It is eminently practical and devoid of wasted words. I’ll be looking forward to the next installment.

Llpoh
Llpoh
June 3, 2017 9:24 pm

Gerold – some good advice in there. But some horrible, horrible advice, too.

The most truly outlandishly horrible advice comes in your comment on burnout. Working smarter is a good thing. But it needs to be in combination with working harder.

As an example, I worked 100+ hours per week until I was 30. That meant I was outworking my competition by as many as 3000 hours per year, and boy howdy that has paid off. By the age of 30, I had accumulated the equivalent of ten more years experience than my competition. They all worked for me at that stage, as well as most everyone else in the organization. Those 100 hours were worked smart, at a time when I had the most physical energy.

From 30 – 40, the hours tapered back, but I picked up an additional 5+ years experience on the competition by that stage, gaining the equivalent of almost 40 years experience by the time I was 40, compared to my competition’s 20. Of further benefit, a great deal of the experience was at very senior manager level, whereas the competition were still grunting along at low and middle management.

By the time I was say 35, my competition could never hope to cach up. I was skilled, experienced, and understood things the average “work smarter” person simply could not. I had risen to the top of my field, and was a sought after hired gun.

After 40, and establishing my own business, I worked no more than 35 – 40 hours, dropping steadily to where I only work/work as I pleased.

The advice you give re this is fluffy new age bullshit. It is best ignored.

Want to really get ahead? Wor your ass off when young, while the competition is chasing tail and getting drunk. Get experience and skills, and leave them in the dust. And then, when your are still youngish, they work for you, you make the big bucks, and control your time and theirs.

It is much as the parable of the ant and the grasshopper. The ant squirrels away resources for the winter. Working your ass off when young and squirreling the experience, skill and knowledge away for when you are a bit older pays huge dividends. Not the “I wished I had worked fewer hours crap”.

Nice articlegenerally, thanks for contributing, but no free rides on TBP. I have some more comments coming. I will give it to you hard.

Llpoh
Llpoh
June 3, 2017 9:36 pm

Re your “be bold” comment.

Yes, be bold. Be shot for a wolf, not a sheep. Concentrate on getting the job done, and do not lose focus on that. Forget politics – get the job done. Let your boss play politics – get the job done and make him look great.

Re your point on mistakes – hoseshit. No mistakes. Forget the bullshit everyone makes mistakes. That is dumbass talk. I do not believe in mistakes. Good planning, working smart, etc. = do not make fucking mistakes.

I do not tolerate mistakes. Every mistake gets punished. Maybe, and usually, just a slap on the wrist. But no mistake goes without notice.

Seriously, that attitude “everyone makes mistakes” is bullshit. It is an excuse. Yes, I know mistakes are made, but I do not pay people to make mistakes.

I make so few mistakes in business that I can remember just about all of them. The last big one cost me $20,000. In 1997. No shit. I am still pissed about it. And given the number of huge dollar decisions I make, that is a tiny blip. It was a mistake everyone but me would have made. But it is one that normally I would have caught.

Do not make mistakes. Do not tolerate mistakes – not any. Slap shit out of anyone who uses the bullshit term “everyone makes mistakes”, because it enables mistakes.

Be bold, but do not make mistakes. Be bold and get things better than the other guy. Be bold, and increase profits, quality, throughput, sales. But do not be bold and make mistakes.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Llpoh
June 4, 2017 10:54 am

So far, six folks think it ok that “everyone makes mistakes”! Great! Those are the types I love. Those are the ones that successful folks feed upon. Their mistakes mean profit for me. Outstanding!

Everyone makes mistakes is promulgated by the same folks that give participation ribbons and trophies for finishing 11th.

Those types are nothing but prey in the scheme of business. Me – I suggest being the predator in these games works best. And make no mistake – business is a game. It is a competition. And to the victor goes the spoils.

GM
GM
  Llpoh
June 6, 2017 1:33 am

interesting Sir.
No one bats 1000 on their first game .
How do you get experience managing people unless you make an error? or mistake?

First error I made , made me work 24 hours plus.
Didn’t make that mistake very often after that hehe
If you jump into a job/career that has a high learning curve , your going to make errors .
Gotta learn from them. That is where experience comes from , I believe.
For example . You go hunting. You don’t know what a gun is. You will fuck up lol .
After you don’t eat for a week or so you may have learned enough to shoot something.
Omg now what do you do ?
How exactly do you cook the damn thing ?
Did you make any mistakes that you learned from ?
Did you get to eat?
Hmmm
I am being nice lol ! Be well sir its all good .
Just a cook , that died , and living now as I should have lived ,whatever

llpoh
llpoh
  GM
June 6, 2017 4:10 am

By starting at your level of competence and working up. You do not start out as CEO. Whatever level, mistakes are bad. Kinda defines what a mistake is. That “everyone makes them ” is just an attempt to cover up bad performance.

peaknic
peaknic
  Llpoh
June 9, 2017 2:15 pm

I think some are confusing the concepts of accepting that mistakes happen (not good) versus being a strategic risk-taker, which will necessarily include the “risk” of your strategy failing. You can still be accountable for a risk that did not pay off (sometimes, there are just too many unknowable unknowns to foresee the eventual failure of a strategy) and be successful in your career, as long as all the up-front work is done and (key-concept) others also buy into/sign off on the risk/potential reward calculus so that you are not the only one holding the bag.

But you will never be successful if you don’t solve significant business issues and in most cases, there are risks associated with any potential solution.

Austrian Peter
Austrian Peter
June 4, 2017 3:19 am

This is priceless, Thanks Gerold, looking forward to the next part. All of what you say I can endorse from my own career experience of over 50 years. I was trained by Xerox in the 70s and never looked back. I am writting a book (due end of the year) for my children, grandchildren and Millennials to fill some of the massive gaps in their education, and to prepare them for the coming catastrophe. I hope it may be published, but if not at least I will leave a worthwhile legacy, just as my father did. His advice was much the same as yours and I am eternally grateful to him for preparing me with his wisdom.
I would love to prepare a precis of your wonderful articles for my book. Please contact me if you would be prepared to give your permission to use your material.
[email protected]
http://leave-the-eu.org.uk/PU.php
Thank you

Marsh Rabbit
Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 7:41 am

I advise young folks I meet to avoid private sector jobs right now. Government employment, especially fed gov jobs, offer pay/pension/benefit packages that no longer exist in the private sector (see usajobs gov web site). I realize we can’t all become government employees, but why should you squander the most productive years of your life making someone else wealthy? When the private sector steps up to the plate and offers better wages and benefits this situation will change. An example of the private sector’s hubris on this issue is the hue & cry about a $15.00 an hour minimum wage. 15.00 an hour=$31,200 a year, and anyone who sees $31,200 as outrageous hasn’t been in a grocery store lately. I’m a retired public defender and my wife is a VA employee; we left the private sector and never looked back.

LLPOH
LLPOH
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 8:05 am

Ooooh. Marsh wabbit and his missus are parasites and want everyone else to be one too! How surprising!

Gee, Marsh, you idiot. How about this for hubris – you fucking public servant parasites that never have to worry about making a profit shoot your pie hole off about how much private enterprise should pay. Now that is some fucking hubris right there.

Why don’t you fuck off back to your rabbit hole, you fuckwit. Man, I can only hope that the pension collapse catches your sorry ass very soon indeed.

What a fucking loser.

LLPOH
LLPOH
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 8:08 am

One more thing, marsh, you dickhead. It is a damn disgrace that public servants get more than private citizens. You fucking pigs have had your snouts in the trough so long you think that is right.

Fucking asshole. What a fucking leech.

MarshRabbit
MarshRabbit
  LLPOH
June 4, 2017 9:24 am

“It is a damn disgrace that public servants get more than private citizens” I generally agree, and the private sector employers have the power to change that. However, I don’t believe an air traffic controller should earn less than a Wal-Mart greeter. And since many low wage private sector employees make ends meet with tax funded programs like food stamps, Section 8 housing, free school lunches, etc, where is the “thank you” from the private sector employers to the taxpayers who are effectively subsidizing their payroll?

Llpoh
Llpoh
  MarshRabbit
June 4, 2017 9:54 am

Marsh -that comment started out ok, then you messed it up. So, the employer owes the taxpayers, who they employ, thanks for paying taxes to give to other taxpayers. Taxpayers get their funding entirely from private enterprise (and borrowings). All taxes collected, and distributed, are a result of private enterprise. Jacking up wages artificially will simply kill jobs. See Philly soda tax, and business closures in high minimum wage areas for proof positive. The redistribution of wages via the methods you indicate are a govt issue – not a business one. The govt made that bad decision.

Given that you govt employees really pay no taxes, seeing as you are paid from taxes, and any “taxes” you pay are just returning a portion of the taxes you are given, maybe it is you who should be ever so grateful to private industry, which funds everything you have, rather than wanting to dictate the wages that private enterprise pays.

The free market needs to dictate wages. Nothing else. What ou think is fair has nothing to do with anything. A willing buyer and a willing seller. That is the equation.

And all welfare needs to be knocked on the head as far as I am concerned.

TJF
TJF
  MarshRabbit
June 4, 2017 9:57 am

“…but why should you squander the most productive years of your life making someone else wealthy?”

So, instead of making someone else wealthy you think it is better to make all of us more in debt?

Marsh Rabbit
Marsh Rabbit
  TJF
June 4, 2017 6:12 pm

I actually don’t care how much an employer makes, if the employees get a good standard of living in exchange for the time & labor they invest. But that’s not the situation anymore. Many private sector employees will wake up in their late 50’s and realize they have little to show for their years of labor. They will have little savings, no pension, and it will be too late to start over.
“And I refused to be a fool dancing on a string held by all of those big shots.” (The Godfather. Dir. Francis Ford Coppola. Marlon Brando. Paramount Pictures, 1972.)

jamesthedeplorablewanderer
jamesthedeplorablewanderer
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 6:38 pm

Are you ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that your public sector job / pension will outlast your need for it? Are you confident that when enough people are going hungry, unemployed and losing houses / everything else they will continue to somehow pay enough taxes to keep you whole?
Do you understand that a $20 TRILLION debt will never, ever be repaid?
Where are you planning to retire that the Crunch will not find you?

Marsh Rabbit
Marsh Rabbit
  jamesthedeplorablewanderer
June 4, 2017 7:46 pm

Of course not! If the major economic collapse you envision occurs, all bets are off. But don’t expect private sector pensions, 401K’s, IRA’s, bank accounts, etc. to survive either.

llpoh
llpoh
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 7:52 pm

Marsh says: ” if the employees get a good standard of living in exchange for the time & labor they invest.”

Oh, so employees get a good standard of living, no matter what. No matter their skills, no matter their risk taken, etc.

The world does not work that way. You have to earn what you get. Time and effort are worth zilch. You must produce value sufficient to make a good standard of living.

Marsh Rabbit
Marsh Rabbit
  llpoh
June 4, 2017 8:21 pm

“Time and effort are worth zilch”. My philosophy has always been “if you steal my money, I can get more money. But if you steal my time, I can never get that back”. There are 3 elements to a contract: offer, acceptance, and consideration. The employer offers X dollars in exchange for a service, the employee accepts and provides the service, and the consideration is something of value that changes hands (money in most cases). “I will pay you only if you produce value sufficient” is what in contract law is called an Illusory Promise. It’s unenforceable due to vagueness, and it would be unwise to invest time & labor based on such a promise. But if you’re OK with this kind of deal, sell me your big screen TV and I’ll pay you when I can, lol.

llpoh
llpoh
  llpoh
June 4, 2017 8:34 pm

Marsh – you really are dumb as a rock. You say people should get a good standard of living for their time and labor, which in no way attaches value to their output, only to their time. I said they have to earn such standard of living. Providing time and labor in itself is not worth anything if they do not provide value. And value in business need not be vague – employee must produce x widgets at y quality to receive z wage, or hit the fucking road, Jack.

If I hire someone who cannot provide value, I fire their asses. End of contract. It takes me very little time to make that decision. No business will hire or provide jobs providing good standard of living just in return for time and labor. They must provide value to justify such a wage.

Your bullshit response just shows your extreme ignorance.

Marsh Rabbit
Marsh Rabbit
  llpoh
June 4, 2017 10:00 pm

I am beginning to suspect you have never been involved in a contract negotiation. Both parties to the contract should get what they bargained for. Value is something the employer should have considered before entering the contract. No one would invest time & labor when the remuneration is contingent upon your subjective assessment of value? If so, sell me your big screen; when I have it in my possession I will pay you what I believe it is worth. My point is we have artificial market forces acting on the exchange. The employer need not offer a living wage if the taxpayers will feed & house the employees. The private sector employers can offer whatever wage they choose, but I will not be a party in their race to the bottom. And remember, since the value of a service is also governed by market forces, when an employer can’t find employees, it’s because he has failed to offer the wage the market demands for that service.

llpoh
llpoh
  llpoh
June 4, 2017 10:07 pm

I am beginning to suspect that you were a public defender because you were far too stupid to make it in private practice.

Correction. I know that is why.

MarshRabbit
MarshRabbit
  llpoh
June 5, 2017 7:09 pm

Ad Hominem: “the fallacy of attacking the character or circumstances of an individual who is advancing a statement or an argument instead of trying to disprove the truth of the statement or the soundness of the argument. Often the argument is characterized simply as a personal attack.”
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/person.html

Rojam
Rojam
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 10:12 am

“I realize we can’t all become government employees, but why should you squander the most productive years of your life making someone else wealthy?” (MarshRabbitt)

Let me finish that thought:

….when you can work off the back of the private sector, vote for tax increases to keep your job and put the country further in debt so your children and grandchildren can squander THEIR lives by continuing the cycle of becoming hopeless slaves to the state.

Sounds like a plan to me!

Rojam
Rojam
  Marsh Rabbit
June 4, 2017 10:48 am

“When the private sector steps up to the plate and offers better wages and benefits this situation will change.”

Ummm….not hardly, sir. When this Country realizes there are more people in the cart than there are pulling it, and cuts government spending (including, but not limited to, government jobs) by 90% then, and only then, will “this situation” change. Don’t worry though, that will probably only happen when the collapse occurs, if it happens at all. In the meantime, enjoy your retirement. Don’t worry, you should be safe. Your children and grandchildren can handle it.

(I am getting madder by the second as I sit thinking of this type of attitude. It is rampant. It will never, ever, ever change. MarshRabbitt seems to be a very nice man. A truly decent fellow, but I disagree with him, extensively, on this subject. My high blood pressure and health is more important than dealing with this Keynesian school of economic nonsense. I must leave this thread and let others deal with it. Llpoh is much smarter than me and does a better job anyways).

Wip
Wip
June 4, 2017 1:03 pm

Great article. I look forward to the next 3.

I wish I had read something like this at a younger age. The biggest problem I had in my career was hating making and watching other people get rich. That has always been a big impediment for me.

jamesthedeplorablewanderer
jamesthedeplorablewanderer
June 4, 2017 6:47 pm

Here’s another thought: if you can, choose work that has less competition.
I went into chemical engineering. Hard math, hard science (chemistry in all its variants). Challenging conceptualization, picking up everything from thermodynamics to physics to unit operations like size reduction (crushing & grinding), leaching & extraction, distillation, refrigeration cycles, you name it. When I went to school, engineering was for the nerds: average to weak nerds became civil engineers, next toughest was mechanical, hardest was chemical and electrical. Half of every class washed out; seniors looked like walking zombies but could frame a problem, decide which tools could solve it and apply them until they did solve. Less than 10% of engineers were chemical engineers.
It generally worked; I had a couple of offers for jobs in the middle of a recession, worked 20 years continuously with my bachelor’s until I went back and got a master’s and doctorate. Now I’m a consultant, working fewer hours and making more per hour.
If you can do what others cannot / will not, you can make it.

Annie
Annie
  jamesthedeplorablewanderer
June 4, 2017 7:50 pm

Works great as long as you find something that will remain in demand but continue to have less competition over your lifetime and can’t be outsourced to India or China. When I went into software engineering there was very little competition. Now what few jobs they don’t outsource to India or China they give to H1Bs here.

llpoh
llpoh
  Annie
June 4, 2017 8:18 pm

Annie – bullshit. Good software engineers are in high demand. Good software engineers can find a job instantly. I mean in an hour. One phone call.

The key is good software engineers. Not many around.

Annie
Annie
  llpoh
June 4, 2017 8:50 pm

Bullshit. The big companies around here don’t want good software engineers. Startups might, but I’ve heard too many horror stories about people not getting paid to be interested in going that route. The big companies want “diversity” (i.e nobody who speaks English as their first language) and Agile (because who doesn’t want to spend the whole day writing “stories” with the idiots on their “scrum team” who can’t speak English) and COTS hardware and open source software and whatever the newest language is that sounds nifty like Ruby on Rails or JavaScript. They even want this crap for critical military applications (we are so screwed)! Then they wonder why the software is full of bugs and is slow as molasses and the North Koreans and Russians and Chinese have hacked their systems. So, no, they don’t want real software engineers who write embedded low level C and assembly language code.

llpoh
llpoh
  Annie
June 4, 2017 9:09 pm

Annie – total bullshit. Seriously. I know a lot of software engineers. Good ones get snapped up by the bigs one after the other. Or smalls. Or start-ups. But you have to be good. They get hounded daily, with big bucks on offer.

I think you might be confusing your situation and experiences with what is really happening out there. Not saying you are not good – maybe you just need others to recognize it. When they do, they will come calling in droves.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
  Annie
June 4, 2017 9:53 pm

Annie said: “The big companies around here don’t want good software engineers.”

Seems like a signal that you are either in the wrong location or in a job of diminishing returns. Either one requires change on your part if you want to remain in demand.

IndenturedServant
IndenturedServant
  Annie
June 4, 2017 9:49 pm

Annie, competition is why it pays to have a diverse skill set. Competition is always there. You either improve your skills to be among the best, diversify into new lines of work with less competition or get left behind. The giant sucking sound of outsourcing has been going on since the 80’s….