Thanks, Gayle, for the comment *** on Doug’s essay on what we choose to do compared to who we are. You inspired me to bring a topic to the table I’ve been somewhat reluctant to introduce to this monkey tribe. Let’s see how I do.
First of all, the whole discussion of what we all THINK might be the underlying reason for the insanity we see in our world is one of those questions that leads NOWHERE, like one of Richard Bach’s novels after the success of his equally baffling Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Example:
“Of course there’s destiny, but destiny doesn’t push you where you don’t want to go. You’re the ones who choose. Destiny is up to you.”
― Richard Bach, One
Commenting to the author, Doug Lynn from across the ocean, Gayle said, “I see it as a problem of the distribution of freedom. This country prides itself on the freedom it permits, elevating it to almost a religious faith.”
If you grasp the meaning of the word “prides” and infuse it with the meaning of the Greek term “hubris”, I think Gayle has introduced a really profound possibility: What if pride in a thing equates to choosing that thing to destroy us. Since Hubris is the almost imperceptible flaw in all humans, even demi-godlike creatures will fall victim to their own egos, if unchecked. I don’t know what it feels like to be black in America. I do know what it feels like to be a second-class citizen in a very structured military where the officers are presumed to have the intelligence and experience necessary to give a lawful order to any enlisted person. Period.
Several folks here can attest to the fact that the arrogance of the few butter-bar lieutenants who tried to berate a well-seasoned Chief found themselves with wet drawers in front of a General pronto, but by and large, the officer corps in the 80s was scraping the bottom of the barrel to find people to attend Officer Training. Even now, with a high percentage of the enlisted corp holding bachelor’s degrees (or higher!), that class distinction between officer and enlisted remains. If I were the type, I would claim discrimination and file a lawsuit. If.
Gayle also suggested “Constraints on freedom have become socially and culturally taboo. Because the nature of humans is essentially self-centered, freedom without restraint means that there must be a fine balance struck between what a society permits and what it prohibits.”
Freedom without restraint EQUALS Balance between what society permits and what is prohibited. Gayle, you have identified an entity that needs to emerge and profess some values to guide those decisions on permission and prohibition. Society needs to identify who and what determines those lines in the sand. Do we not have the right to determine those at our own property lines? Am I allowed to tell you what you must do and how you must act when you are within my home? Then why can’t Society demand certain behaviors on behalf of its members, especially if they are there by mutual consent, which is true of a civilized polity living as a “societal group.” Within our own boundaries, are we not allowed to agree upon “community standards” as 9 wise old men thought might help balance the scales of justice when people try to decide between personal liberty and societal norms? Must we always let the deconstructionists and revisionists take more and more of the moral ground from us? Must we always turn the other cheek?
“A shared value system based generally on Christian ethics is disappearing because of loss of interest in traditional religion coupled with mass immigration of those with differing faith and value systems.” Again, Gayle. Why is this happening? Is it because we have allowed the erosion of the home and family to continue from the 1970s to now unabated? What else happened during that era?
Ah, Bingo, Gayle. You answered my question up immediately. “An easy and obvious example is the freedom to have children outside of marriage (including common-law marriage, of course). Back in the day, children without committed fathers were called bastards and both mother and child were subject to great social disapproval and prejudice.” It was almost as if the society of our youths believed it had the right to exercise its disapproval of some behaviors that might cause harm to Society. Like having bastard children reliant on government assistance programs from cradle to grave and teaching generations of their progeny to be just like them. Which, unfortunately, makes Gayle’s next assumption likely false.
“This shared value inhibited the number of children born to disadvantage. It helped young women protect themselves from irresponsible mating.” I think Gayle probably “meant” to say that this was stated intend to do those things. I think the irresponsible mating was exactly what was the underlying intent, not the stated.
And so, “The new religion of freedom destroyed the constraints on illegitimacy. Now, every woman must be free to breed as often and indiscriminately as she wants. And to protect her freedom to do so, the larger society can no longer frown on her, but must instead pay her for her poor choices. It must also pay for all the remedies needed for her handicapped offspring.
If it dare complain, it now receives all the vitriol once poured upon the woman. The result is an ever-growing collection of illegitimate children for the taxpayers to care for and an increase in other problems this new paradigm creates.”
I would add one thoughtline to your comments, Gayle. What sort of impact has Roe V. Wade had on our young women of child-bearing age? What kind of impact did the ability to “undo” the mistake have on the sexual behavior of school-age children? I think it is almost obvious if you take a peek at images from the 50s and compare them to the 70s. I think those of us who came of age in the 1970s will recognize how quickly the idea of getting abortions spread and became normalized in my generation. I think the psychological impact was profound on Society. It is an issue any new Societal force will need to address. And it should be paired with the equally ignored in polite societal conversation: Elder Care.
You got it here, folks at TBP… a discussion that suggests the issues of Elder Care and Abortion belong in the same health care conversation. Back to Gayle for a nice wrap-up.
“I don’t wish to constrain anyone’s moral choices, nor do I believe in looking down my nose at someone because I am holier than her. Far from it. So what is to be done? Simple: destructive behavior cannot be rewarded. Stupid use of freedom must be restrained.”
I will repeat what I carry away as a good rule to support:
Stupid Use of Freedom must be Restrained.
Pride, a crown of the virtues, according to Aristotle. Pride, too, goeth…down to digestion, fertilizer, before…lions. As for stupidity ‘restrained’ – that’s one of the bonny boons of competition. Which “we need restrainers” – prides of legal lie•ons – is 180 degrees away from.
RUH ROH…did you just start a shitfest?
“You got it here, folks at TBP… a discussion that suggests the issues of Elder Care and Abortion belong in the same health care conversation. ”
Maybe I am misunderstanding the statement. Would you please expand on this?
I have to cook dinner before I get in trouble 😉
Sorry I dropped the shitbomb then went to pull weeds.
MC, I have never been able to finish my piece on the issues I bumped into during the months I was the primary caregiver for my father-in-law. I think the ability to extend a person’s life long enough to extract their wealth from them makes our elder care situation monstrous.
I’m not saying that sick old people need to be euthanized, either. I just know that walking into any nursing home takes you past some of the loneliest and saddest people on the face of the earth. If you’ve ever been a “regular” at a “skilled care and rehabilitation” facility (sounds very technical, doesn’t it?) then you know there are two types of patient there. There are the beloved elderly whose life savings has been socked away in a trust so their heirs won’t lose it all to the Medicaid fraud folks and there are the elderly whose life savings consists of a social security check which now is forfeit to a nursing home, most of whose employees probably can’t get jobs at a local fast food restaurant.
I suggest Society discuss the issues of Abortion and Elder Care on the same platform because, while Roe v. Wade made abortion the ultimate right that defines a woman’s sovereignty, giving women the ability to treat sexuality just like men and to hell with the consequences! (my friend’s 14-yr-old daughter told me that “morning after” pills cost $20 at the local high school) the rights of the elderly seem to be easily dismissed once Society has determined them to be so nonproductive they can be left in the care of people you probably would not order a hamburger from at the local fast food joint.
The last time I was in Oklahoma, I stopped by the facility where my Poppa Grooch lived his last few weeks, when our home proved to be NOT wheelchair friendly at all. I had to enter through the front, since I no longer had the access code to open secondary exterior doors. The lobby was filled with residents who’d been pushed out of their rooms to “enjoy” the morning sunshine and it made my stomach hurt, remembering the times I would find my Poppa G sitting there staring out the window.
Why would a young girl have the right to eliminate an unwanted baby but a beloved family member not have the right to determine their own ending?
C. S. Lewis described pride as “the great sin”, far worse than sins of the flesh like lust, anger, deceit, and gluttony. But because pride is embedded into one’s “spirit”, Lewis claimed, it leads to multiple vices. He even described pride as “the complete anti-God state of mind”.
If true, then EGO becomes Edging God Out and, without humility on behalf of the governed, it becomes impossible to legislate “stupid”. Welcome to the future. Free Will can be a bitch.
Perhaps the only antidote is to SUFFER = Stupidly Utilizing Faux Freedom Elicits Realization
A thought-provoking perspective on Gayle’s comment. Thanks for posting, Maggie
But who shall decide what MY freedoms shall be?
Even worse, who are you to decide to over-rule reality?
One of the (few) encouraging trends in recent days is the trend DOWNWARDS in teen pregnancy. Dare I suggest that today’s teens are growing to understand that premature parenthood (before you are ready to support any subsequent offspring) is a REALLY bad idea? That if you are so [stupid / self-centered / selfish / ignorant / choose adjective] as to think that birth control is optional, babies come from beneath cabbages or it won’t happen to you then you WILL have a bad outcome? Have they SEEN it often enough (from parents, acquaintances, friends and former classmates) that they have, finally, INTERNALIZED it?
If so, was it not BECAUSE they saw freedom used casually that they now understand its failings?
We need no restrictions on freedom; we just need not support its abuse by the foolish. You MUST learn from the mistakes of others, not just your own; and perhaps these teens ARE. Limiting freedom will lessen their chances to learn from the failures. Who are we to deny them that opportunity?
If you cannot be persuaded to choose abstinence, birth control, RU-86 or abortion then its YOUR problem to deal with. Society need not be involved, and those who learn will be better off.
YES, I am a horrible person and my advice will lead to a terrible wave of consequences, from infants denied proper care to suffering, poverty and death to those who choose poorly.
Who mourns the slow wildebeest eaten by a lion? Or the slow lion stomped to death by an elephant? Who will choose for others without choosing to benefit themselves?
Can one freedom be restricted without limiting them all?
Who do you trust to make choices / limit JUST ONE freedom for you?
James
You are right about the encouraging teen pregnancy statistics. I read the other day that today’s teens are about two years behind previous generations in terms of growing up – jobs, cars, sex happening later. It’s an interesting phenomenon.
The illegitimacy rate, however, is another story. It just keeps climbing among whites, blacks, and Hispanics. Don’t know about Asians.
“We need no restrictions on freedom; we just need not support its abuse by the foolish.” Perfectly said.
Society nor government should reward stupid choices. So just exactly what are stupid choices. Start a list…. It’s a long one.
first is any violence against any other person…of any kind. Just imagine that list. physical, financial, emotional………
Another thought on the fire, related to Elder Care:
Mom is 92, and in a nursing home at the moment for two wounds that are slow to heal. She’s a tough old bird, and may beat them yet, as recent progress indicates.
Even if she does, she will probably never live alone again; her house is not well suited to someone who cannot climb even a couple of stairs very well, and my sister is probably going to take care of her (if possible!) for her remaining days. But the long-term care policy that she and dad paid into for a couple of decades will cover less than half of the cost of daily assistance.
The company that sold (and accepted premiums) for that policy is getting bad press for denying claims left and right, even those that would appear to fall solidly in the range of covered expenses. That being said, I’m sure ZIRP has killed the investments that they thought would bring solid returns to finance their business. If they pay the legitimate claims to the letter they will probably fold, and pay NO claims. If they deny claims they are bad people.
The unseen villains are those who made it impossible to earn enough interest on legitimate investments to finance a viable business model.
The government hates old people, and wants them to DIE! (And leave taxable estates, of course).
Damn those were two good comments JTDW.
Reading good comments from others is why I come here (among other reasons); HSF usually leads the pack.
If I happen to leave one, then anyone who benefits is more than welcome.
Very true; the Fed manages our currency to favor the banks at our (society’s) expense. So who owns and runs the Fed and the biggest banks??
TO BEGIN:
“First of all, the whole discussion of what we all THINK might be the underlying reason for the insanity we see in our world is one of those questions that leads NOWHERE, like one of Richard Bach’s novels after the success of his equally baffling Jonathan Livingston Seagull. Example:
‘Of course there’s destiny, but destiny doesn’t push you where you don’t want to go. You’re the ones who choose. Destiny is up to you.’
― Richard Bach, One”
TO PROCEED any distance at all along this line of thinking, this train of thought:
NOWHERE = NOW HERE
Take me, therefore, dear thought-filled souls, home to Nowheresville! Wherein the task of employment becomes BE HERE NOW; wherefore the reward constitutes NO THING; and the “WHY OF IT ALL” belies and defies human rationality, reason, and responsibility.
Exactly.
The government also hates babies apparently. How do you combat this shit?
As for thoughts-actions-habits-character, hey, every time I see a hot babe I have certain thoughts. Vivid thoughts. I have also been married 32 years and have and will never stray. But I do enjoy the thoughts man. The future with thought police has me terrified. Until and if a thought is turned into action, a man should be free think as he wants. Once action is taken, live with the damn consequences and don’t expect others to take care of you (as this current gubbamint is wanton to do).
Here’s the right millennial attitude:
Pride in a job well done is always good. It leads to work ethic and character. Pride in one’s own is essential as it prevents aliens who are a threat to stay away from you.
Arrogance and Hubris lead to a fall. Small and pathetic fools who brag are always someone who fails. Imbeciles who flail fake cardboard diplomas as if their ignorance is shielded from criticism by such crap.
Generals do not win wars. They are mere bureaucrats mostly. Idiots sitting around playing with toys and maps. At least nowadays, with paycheck “professional” soldiers.
They are firmly behind their men. About twenty or thirty miles firmly behind them. Great leaders like Napoleon, Caesar and Rommel are at the frontlines guiding their men. They are not prissy metrosexual girly men who preen in fancy pants uniforms and attend gala gay balls with the Prime Ribs of Flabby Loose Chops.
Look at Mr. Trump. A bad little boy. Some say he’s alpha. With his nice little suit and his trophy wife. Looks manly next to Little Jebbie, but then anything not a little girl would. Weak voice, bad combover and attendance at Military School. Military School doesn’t teach leadership boys. Its where bad boys get sent by Daddy cause he needs discipline. Didn’t take obviously. Nouveau Riche flashy. Party dude. Reality Star. Another President Kardashian.
Go ahead and disagree, but that guy ain’t Caesar. Not the Divine Julius.
Hi Maggie
Thanks for the thoughtful attention you gave to my comment. Now my brain is hurting trying to digest your perspective as well as the views of other commenters and to respond in kind.
I did not mean to single out mothers and children in judgment, they are just such a clear example of the danger of subsidizing bad choices. One thing that intrigues me is that the illegitimacy rate started rising about the time birth control became available. Clearly, there is something else going on besides the challenge of popping a little pill every day. I’m sure Roe vs. Wade was another factor shaping views on women’s sexual freedom, as you suggested. How did things get this way? A chipping away, bit by bit, of the old order. Diabolical plan or simply evolutionary? Probably both.
Once many years ago, someone told me that the generation which promoted abortion would be the first generation to experience euthanasia of the old, which brings me to your premise that elder care and abortion are related. I wish the world was growing warm and fuzzier, but instead it is growing cold and tyrannical, and my own conviction is that euthanasia will eventually be the solution to a number of “problems.” Killing of one helpless class makes the destruction of other weak ones easily justified.
Anyway, our culture is fracturing along the fault line of “diversity,” which is code for undermining and upending a set of cultural values. Some pursue this change with a passion, convinced the old ways belong in the trashbin. Like George Soros and Hillary Clinton, what they do is who they are.
Gayle, you said it well and I just thought it might be a good jumping off point to bring up exactly what you voice here… abortion and euthanasia really do belong on the same platform for discussion, as distasteful as it seems.
Reading the comments and posts of actual critical thinking is refreshing and frustrating; how wonderful to read of constructive, practical and useful ideas, but thoughts of hope are instantly wiped out when the reality of the news of the day shows the same dangerous path to chaos is still the only path we are forced to follow.
The bottom line is less government/ less regulations/ more minding your own business would go a long way to solving the problems addressed, but that train left years or decades ago and it aint coming back.
Still, after the dust clears of whatever apocalypse comes and goes, there may be the possibility of a better society to look forward to; the ideas are there, they will just need to be implemented by a clear thinking, selfless generation, humbled and wiser having survived the mistakes of the past.
I thought that was where you were going with your bomb. I just want to make sure. Not sure why you got downvoted in your expansion upon my question. So I upvoted to counter it.
I think the elderly (that would be us in 20 yrs, give or take) will be subject to euthanasia, if not mandatory then at least heavy pressure to “die with dignity”. I’m not advocating this, just being realistic in where I think society is going, unless something changes.
Abortion and “dying with dignity” do go hand in hand, I believe. Many other things went wrong when abortion was legalized. Men no longer believe they need to be responsible if a women gets pregnant, because, well, just go get an abortion, right? Oh and another thing, why wasn’t she taking the pill, anyway?
The pill is actually terrible for women. Our hormonal balance is quite delicate and disrupting it has long term consequences. PMS gets much worse after you quit taking the pill for 10,15, 20 years or more. You can’t take it forever, because your risk of stroke and blood clots goes way up. Not to mention that if you don’t take it at the exact time every day, it loses its potency and if you miss a day or more, then forget the whole month, it’s nearly useless.
Side effects are common and for this reason, many women just give up.
Many more abortions are performed on women of college age or older than on teens.
https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-united-states
Plan B is widely available and no records are kept on how many women use this type of abortion which may account for the drop in abortions. Another reason abortion is down in teens may be on social media and texting. They just do not socialize in person like we did as teens. That’s why they aren’t interested in driving like we were.
Once society got to a point where we no longer believed in the God of the bible, life became…omg, word retrieval is killing me…cheap, I guess is the word I’m looking for.
Some believe we are living in a post-postmodern society now.
“Post-postmodernism is tribalism to the extreme and with gloves off. It might just be the ultimate extension or intensification of post-modernism. It’s postmodern to the extent that it accepts the reality of difference and the reality of tribalism, “language-games,” and unique standpoints (unlike modernism, it doesn’t seek to transcend those boundaries). But it is post-postmodern in it is not chastened by epistemic humility, but hardened by certainty. In the post-postmodern mood, there may be a recognition that we don’t have the Absolute Truth, but that doesn’t make any difference, because we don’t care. It doesn’t change the way we relate to others; it doesn’t change the way we understand our place in the world. It isn’t chastened by difference and otherness, but angered by it. It isn’t motivated by peace, but by war.”
Read more at
Here in the US, everyone is screaming about “MY RIGHTS”. No one seems to understand that with rights comes responsibilities.
A couple of obvious examples would be you can’t yell FIRE in a theater, but you can take this further with the fact that my right to voice my opinion does not preclude your right to voice yours.
My right to carry a firearm comes with many responsibilities that I don’t need to list, I think you know what they are.
My right to vote includes the responsibility to know as much as I can about who and what I am voting for.
I don’t think any school teaches kids about responsibility, it kinda goes along with critical thinking, would you agree?
Back to the elderly issue. I can’t let my parents generation off the hook. Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, all those unfunded liabilities that we got stuck with happened on their watch. Their education was mostly before education became indoctrination. What happened to their critical thinking skills? How come my grandparents generation said nothing when our rights were being lost one by one with the foundation of the Federal Reserve? Oh, yeah they were trying to recover from the Spanish Flu, WWI, a depression in the early 20’s, etc.
It’s really hard to point fingers. I was a kid when the abortion thing was winding it’s way through the courts. What else was happening then? Oh yeah, Nixon, gold standard, oil shock, high inflation..there are always distractions and now it’s worse with social media and the narcissism that goes along with it.
You asked about experience with nursing facilities. My mom had Alzheimer’s and my dad had Parkinsons. Does that answer your question? They are quite awful, for the most part. Even the so called “upscale” facilities are just nicer places to be left to die.
Can we stop the train? I think we know the answer to that.
I could say a lot more about this but I have things to do.
Yes, along with rights and freedoms do come responsibilities. Understanding that concept is a sign of maturity. Are there any adults left in this country?
It is only weak-minded imagination that allows adults(?) to think that they can escape the consequences of their actions.
Suppose you drive drunk once, and get away with it; no accidents, no one dies. A sane individual would wake up hung over, and realize: oh shit, was I ever lucky last night! I’m NEVER gonna do that again!
Far too many weak-minded individuals will instead rationalize this away. They come up with fantastic and convoluted explanations, and decide: Wow! I’m a special snowflake! I can hold my liquor better than anyone else! It doesn’t really matter if I drink and drive or not, I can do it! What a superhuman capacity for liquor I have! Wheee!
And eventually they wind up splattered all over a bridge abutment. Or worse: they splatter someone else all over a bridge abutment, and walk away without a scratch.
NO ONE can over-rule reality and get away with forever. Our whole entitlement society is an extended exercise in denying reality, and claiming victory over causation because causation didn’t IMMEDIATELY exact its toll on us. It’s only a matter of time before the Crunch corrects all these delusions, and all those who thought themselves superhumans will be horribly (and in many cases, fatally) surprised at the long-delayed imposition of reality on their lives.
Actions do have consequences, and being “hip”, “cool”, “progressive” or “awoke” makes no difference. Except in how you fool yourself, of course.