Who Owns Your Body?

Guest Post by Grizzly Bare

“For each of us social cooperation is of course not the ultimate end but a means. … But it is a means so central, so universal, so indispensable to the realization of practically all our other ends, that there is little harm in regarding it as an end in itself, and even in treating it as if it were the goal of ethics. In fact, precisely because none of us knows exactly what would give most satisfaction or happiness to others, the best test of our actions or rules of action is the extent to which they promote a social cooperation that best enables each of us to pursue his own ends.

Without social cooperation modern man could not achieve the barest fraction of the ends and satisfactions that he has achieved with it. The very subsistence of the immense majority of us depends upon it.”

Henry Hazlitt

“If not by looking to the individual, how does one determine in the first place that home and hearth is superior to hammer and sickle?”

Adam Martin

I’m going to throw my mea culpa out before I say anything else, which is that I lack any formal education beyond the ninth grade and this is my first attempt at writing any sort of an article, so if this is hard to follow it is not that the concepts are esoteric or difficult it is merely my inability to coherently convey my thoughts. I am also still learning how to structure sentences and paragraphs as well as how to use grammar and punctuation, so for those errors I apologize in advance.

I’d also like to thank all the other authors who post to this site, Mr. Jim Admin Quinn, Robert Gore, Uncola, HSF, Stucky and all the rest. I am in awe of you all, and you’ve been a huge inspiration for me to try my hand at this. I’ve been debating with myself for quite a while whether or not to spend the time and effort, but I felt that something needed saying, and I’m not hearing it from anyone else, so here goes.

I’ve had something on my mind for a while that has been troubling me, and I’m hoping that the TPB brothers and sisters can help me try to understand a disturbing trend I’ve been seeing here and at other sites around the web, but before I get to that I want to lay some foundation by asking a simple question, and then expanding on it. That question is, who owns your body?

Do you lay claim to your own body or do you give up that ownership to some other entity? I know for a lot of you here your immediate response will be Jehovah owns my body, or Jesus Christ owns my body. All very well and good, but for the sake of keeping this article on track I’d like to keep the discussion confined to the surface of the planet Earth and it’s human inhabitants. If you are a minor under the care of your parents or other guardian, they may claim ownership of your body until you are of sufficient age and experience to claim it for yourself, but that’s a topic for another day and again for the purposes of this article I’d like to confine it to terrestrial adult humans.

So do you claim ownership of your self, or do you give up that right to another? You may ask yourself if I don’t own myself who else would own me? In an age where private ownership of other human beings is immoral and predominately illegal, the obvious answer would be collective public ownership. Ownership by the governments of nation states, otherwise known as THE STATE. Do you claim ownership of yourself or do you cede that right to the state?

Outside of the realm of spirituality this is potentially the most fundamentally important question that a person can ask oneself. The answer to this question has direct and profound implications for your life and the world in which you live. If you claim ownership of your self then it logically follows that the fruits of your labor, otherwise known as your property, also belong to you. It also follows that you have the right to defend yourself and your property against anyone who would harm you or attempt to steal or harm your property.

On the other hand, if the state owns your body, by extension they also own the fruits of your labor. The state may decide to allow you to keep a certain amount of property you have worked for and earned, depending upon what they feel they can get away with before you decide to object. If the state decides to allow you to keep part of the fruit of your labor it is not because of any benevolence on their part. It is merely that the more they steal from you the more likely you are to make a fuss.

If enough people make a fuss it becomes inconvenient for the state to deal with, so most of the time it is in the state’s best interest to allow it’s subjects to keep a certain amount of what they work for and earn. Allowing subject to retain a portion of their production also gives them an incentive to keep producing. If you don’t claim ownership of your self and the state owns you, then you have not only given up the right to your own private property, but also the right to defend yourself and whatever property the state deems it will allow you to retain.

In the absence of your self ownership the state may deny you the right to self defense, then step in to defend you at it’s whim. They give no guarantees that they will protect you. They merely find it more convenient in most cases to protect the producers from criminals because if they didn’t there wouldn’t be as much largess for the state to confiscate, so like a farmer protecting his livestock from predators, they have an apparatus in place known as the criminal justice system, part of which helps protect the honest hard working people who produce bounty for the state. Sometimes the criminal justice system actually works to protect the subjects, but being a bureaucracy of the state it is rife with corruption, as all things by, for and of the state must be, so maybe you get justice from it or maybe you get abused by it. It’s a crap shoot.

Before I digress, I’d like to toss out a little quote about the nature of the state and why all things by, for and of the state are inherently corrupt. this is important to know before you cede your claim of ownership of yourself to the state.

“The state — or, to make matters more concrete, the government — consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get, and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time it is made good by looting ‘A’ to satisfy ‘B’. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction on stolen goods.”

H.L. Mencken

All natural rights are derived from the premise of self ownership. Those same rights the founding fathers of the United States enumerated in our bill of rights. The right to self defense. The right to speak one’s mind freely. The right to assemble with whomever and whenever one chooses. The right to worship as one chooses, or not. The right to the ownership and sanctity of one’s private property. The right to travel freely. A lot of you are probably quite familiar with them. Without self ownership they are no longer rights that are inalienable and naturally inherited at birth, they become privileges granted by the state, to be granted or revoked at the whim of the state.

If you do not have self ownership, then as your default owner, the state my deem which substances you may ingest. Like a farmer tending his livestock, it may decide what your diet will be, which medicines and vaccines you will take. It may decide what other health care you will or won’t receive and which substances are approved to alter your state of mind. As your owner it might go to such lengths as assigning you your living quarters , assigning your vocation, determining when and where you may travel, and even perhaps whether you shall live or not. Without self ownership you do not retain the right to make choices concerning your life.

Self ownership is the bedrock principle of libertarian philosophy. Every bit of libertarian thought is derived from the concept of self ownership. Property rights, self defense, free markets, free association, freedom of speech, the non aggression principle, all of it stems from, and is logically deduced from the concept of self ownership. If you ever hear a “libertarian” advocating anything that contradicts the concept of self ownership he’s not a libertarian. (I’ve noticed a lot of leftists lately claiming to be libertarians that sound much like Marxists.)

Self ownership is the basis for libertarianism. Every tenet of the philosophy is logically deduced from that premise. When you reject libertarianism you deny your self ownership. You hand the ownership of your body, mind and whatever you produce to the state. Without self ownership you no longer have a reason for natural rights to exist. Without natural rights all you have are privileges granted by the state that can be revoked at any time for any reason. The state and natural rights are incompatible.

Which finally brings me to my point. I’ve been reading a lot of articles and comments (here and on other blogs that were in times past solid advocates for liberty) that blame libertarians and the libertarian philosophy for the plight that the white race and western civilization finds itself in after decades of cultural marxism. The first thought that comes to my mind is why wouldn’t you place the blame for cultural marxism at the feet of, well, Marxists, rather than the one school of thought that has done more to combat marxism than any other?

The second thought that comes to mind is cui bono? Who benefits? Who does benefit from the defeat of libertarian philosophy? The leviathan criminal gang known as the government. THE STATE. Certainly not western civilization or the white race. How does giving up self ownership to the state benefit anyone but the state? The only logical conclusion I’ve been able to reach is that this rubbish is being produced and spread by agents of the state. To my suspicious mind it does seem to be exactly the sort of propaganda the CIA would produce and promote.

I have yet to hear anyone make a coherent case for why the mess we find ourselves in can be laid at the feet of libertarians. It usually goes something like libertarians are for individualism and against tribalism. That’s why. This shows a profound ignorance of the libertarian philosophy. I haven’t exhausted the Mises library by any means, but I’m working my way through libertarian philosophy from the likes of Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt, Rockwell, Sowell, Hayek, Block, Hoppe and never have I read anything about individualism being a tenet of libertarian thought.

Libertarians advocate for the sovereignty of the individual, which is another way of saying self ownership, and individual rights. We are not in any way opposed to tribalism or forming groups or co-ops. On the contrary, free association is one of the main tenets of natural rights and libertarian philosophy. We only ask that our association be voluntary and not coerced. Someone pointed me to a YouTube video of some guy who explained with a wonderfully beautiful British accent how libertarianism is harmful to the white race and western civilization because of individualism.

It sounds very convincing, but again he shows a profound ignorance, or more likely a deliberate deception of what the libertarian philosophy actually stands for. Another argument goes “libertarianism only works in a homogeneous nation of White Europeans. In a multiracial society, it is a disastrous philosophy that only brings more losing for Whites.” This is not explained or justified just presented as if it were a fact. I have to ask again, how does giving up self ownership benefit anyone but the state?

Others have pointed out the non-aggression principle claiming that libertarians are spineless pacifists. Again sheer nonsense. The NAP merely states that you can’t expect to have self ownership and property rights without allowing everyone else those same rights. Anything less and you are nothing but a hypocritical tyrant. Boiled down it merely means leave me and my stuff alone and I will pay you the same courtesy. Nowhere does it say that I can’t use violence to protect myself and my property. Forming militias, forming self protection coalitions or hiring protection firms are all perfectly compatible with libertarian thought.

The most puzzling argument I’ve heard against libertarian philosophy is, “The truth of Libertarianism is that the Jewish Elite know that ethnic survival is a TEAM SPORT. They are happy convincing Whites to become Libertarians, because it dissolves the OPPOSING TEAM into INDIVIDUAL PLAYERS that do not coordinate. When Whites play as INDIVIDUALS against the Jews playing as a TEAM, we LOSE.

Ethnic survival being a team sport may be the truth about the Jewish elite, but the idea that the Jewish elite are trying to convince whites to become libertarians is ludicrous. First of all libertarianism has nothing whatsoever to do with being an individual player. It is about individual sovereignty, which is the concept of self ownership and individual rights. Show me one thing written by any of the elder statesmen like Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt, Hayek, Rockwell, Paul, Block or Hoppe,who have built the libertarian philosophy where they advocate acting as an individual.

That is a myth. It is pure unadulterated disingenuous misrepresentation, otherwise known as a bald faced lie. This link will take you to an article that shines the light of reason on that lie, https://mises.org/library/what-we-mean-individualismmay . To the contrary it is not hard to find statements in support of social cooperation. They suggest that the government get the hell out of the way so individuals can take care of themselves. They may suggest that folks ought to have personal responsibility. They may advocate allowing folks to invest their retirement funds into individual accounts rather than the Social Security slush fund, but nowhere will you find the suggestion that we are to isolate ourselves from one another.

Second of all, if the Jewish elite were trying to convince whites to become libertarians there might be some indication of it to be found somewhere. The overwhelming evidence I see in print media, radio, television, Hollywood, the vast majority of the internet, public education and the government itself is that the power elite are doing everything within their power to convince us all to be collectivists. Socialism, communism, cultural Marxism and neoconservatism are all at the top of the menu. Furthermore what motive would the power elite have for advocating a philosophy that undermines the power of the elite?

It just doesn’t add up. This nonsense not only needs to be put to rest, it needs to be killed and have a stake driven through it’s heart. If you want to blame someone for the plight of the white race and western civilization, collectivists seem a much more worthy target than libertarians. We are not the enemy.

So who do you trust with the ownership of your body?

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46 Comments
NtroP
NtroP
December 14, 2018 12:46 pm

Grizz,
My congratulations on an outstanding first effort. You present a cogent argument and support it pretty well, in my opinion. I personally don’t dwell much on labels like liberal, conservative, or libertarian, but I appreciate personal freedoms and like to think I own my body, rather than the state owning it.
That said, I think they’ve determined that they can confiscate roughly 50% of our output without causing too much of a fuss. Which leaves about half left over for food, clothing, shelter, guns and ammo, precious metals and miscellaneous and sundry needs.
Keep writing and God bless.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
December 14, 2018 12:57 pm

Grizzly…
I never completed the 9th grade thank God.
Pure brilliance, what an article, what a question.. Self ownership.
So many good points made I don’t know what to comment on but it’ll be fun watching what happens. I’m seriously impressed.

White Rationalist
White Rationalist
December 14, 2018 1:00 pm

9th grade? You write better than a current university graduate. A great example of what formal education doesn’t teach you and what motivated self education can. I would imagine most TBP’ers are well into continuous self education.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
December 14, 2018 2:29 pm

Thanks everyone. I forgot to wish all a Merry Christmas.

The link to the article I was referring to.

https://mises.org/library/what-we-mean-individualism

starfcker
starfcker
  Grizzly Bare
December 14, 2018 2:38 pm

Nice work, Griz. “The state and natural rights are incompatible.” I do have a problem with this as a philosophy on a practical level. Llpoh made an argument at one time about some particular territory, and his thing was, well it’s their’s for now, as long as they can hold on to it. Meaning if you can’t successfully defend it, it’s not yours, as the end game. Rights are the same way. If you can defend them, they belong to you. If you can’t, they’re not really rights. The state actually helps more people have rights than hurts. You don’t have to bloody yourself defending something that the state will do for you. I’m not defending our current government, it’s a mess, but the idea that each individual is going to defend every one of his rights 24/7 isn’t practical, and favors the strong and the intelligent, not the individual.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  starfcker
December 14, 2018 2:53 pm

Star,
I understand your point and it’s been something I’ve been wrestling with for a long time. I think it is the key difference between libertarians and anarchists. Libertarians seem to favor having a framework for national defense, and a justice system that would look like a very limited state. Anarchists on the other hand would take smaller government to it’s logical conclusion which would be the absence of a state.

I like the vision that the founding fathers had of a government that was established for the sole purpose of protecting the rights of the individual. The problem as I see it is that they put all of the most important checks and balances like the three branches within the structure of the government, which is kind of like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

I would be very happy just to see the constitution respected and adhered to. Any reduction in the leviathan we are now encumbered with would be a huge positive and something I think we can all agree on and work towards.

starfcker
starfcker
  Grizzly Bare
December 14, 2018 3:52 pm

???

Platoplubius
Platoplubius
December 14, 2018 2:44 pm

Grizz

Nice work. You touched on a few topics and I was waiting for you to dive deep down the STRAWMAN (fictitious business name) rabbit hole, aka our Birth Certificates in relarion to the admiralty/maritime corporate system that our natural persons have unwittingly been deceived into participating with.

Understanding who our STRAWMAN in helps explain the answer to your question

So who do you trust with the ownership of your body?

Citizens owned by their governments? Like the British being “subjects” to the Crown?

Why is our labor taxed if we do not own ourselves? Why can a child in public school get an abortion without parental consent or knowledge of the act if our offspring are “ours” to raise?

Vaccinations laden with adjuvants like thimerosal and aborted fetus tissue and gmos forced on our offspring otherwise their supposed Right to an education is revoked and they are banned from the school.

How can my property in which I labored and toiled for be seized and sold through civil asset forfeiture and eminnent domain from an artificial construct referred to as “government?” There is nothing NATURAL about these examples and if you follow the rabbit hole to its end you will find the inconvenient and painful TRUTH that, the Land of the Free might not be adequate to describe our situation… Land of the Serfs with priveledges might be more apt.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Platoplubius
December 14, 2018 3:31 pm

Plato, I think that’s a great topic to delve into, we are indeed hostage of a monster blob and the land of the free is indeed a hollow echo of what might have once been.

I have no doubt the strawman is something you are far more qualified to write about than I, and I sincerely hope you can find the time to write it and post it.

subwo
subwo
  Platoplubius
December 14, 2018 7:28 pm

Plato, I watched Jordan Maxwell on you tube about this and went back and found this strawman presentation.

Platoplubius
Platoplubius
  subwo
December 14, 2018 8:16 pm

Subwo,

When I first encountered the content discussed in the video you linked above over 10 years ago, my initial reaction was to dismiss it as crazytown nutter talk but after watching it several times and beginning my personal research into the U.C.C. system Jordan Maxwell refers to I couldn’t help but have to change my worldview to accommodate aspects of this new information.

Steve C
Steve C
December 14, 2018 3:13 pm

Grizzly – A very nice first piece. Your writing skills are better than you give yourself credit for. Good for you.

“…The NAP merely states that you can’t expect to have self ownership and property rights without allowing everyone else those same rights. Anything less and you are nothing but a hypocritical tyrant. Boiled down it merely means leave me and my stuff alone and I will pay you the same courtesy…”

That’s one of the most important values held dear by true Libertarians. We cannot truly be free and own ourselves unless we will allow that same right to everyone else.

Do not confuse being a Libertarian with what is now the Libertarian Party.

I used to be very active in the LP. I was chairman of the Western NY party and was a delegate at the national convention when we nominated Ron Paul as our candidate for president in 1988.

The LP has long since been taken over by Republicans. The trial run was the Young Republican Club joining the NYLP en masse by simply paying the dues and signing the non-aggression pledge. They then used their large numbers to nominate shock jock Howard Stern as their candidate for governor of NY.

That pretty much destroyed the NYLP.

Based on their great success the national Republican organization did the same with the national LP. First, they gutted the party platform and then eliminated it altogether.

I quit when the platform and principles that I had worked so hard for were eliminated. They differentiated us from all others.

The resulting shambles of a Libertarian Party had a chance to get me back in 2008. If any actual Libertarians still active had been able to nominate a Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby ticket I would have given them another chance. Instead, the Republican infestation nominated that rotten little prick Bobb Barr and Wayne Allyn Root.

Real Libertarians still exist, but we take the fight to each person one at a time now just as you are.

Keep reading the works of Mises, Rothbard, Hazlitt, Rockwell, Sowell, Hayek, Block, and Hoppe. You might even like to take a break from the heavy stuff and read some Robert Heinlein (I’ll bet TBP’ers wouldn’t have guessed I’d suggest that). His science fiction stories have a nice Libertarian bend to them. “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” was great fun…

And keep writing. You are better at it than you think.

“…I never let schooling interfere with my education…” — Mark Twain

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Steve C
December 14, 2018 3:25 pm

Steve I agree with you completely about the Libertarian party. Like any movement that threatens the status quo such as the tea party or the occupy movement it has been co-opted and subverted. I’m still inclined to believe that voting is worse than a waste of time, because it inclines you to believe you are actually participating when nothing could be further from the truth.

The libertarian philosophy however holds a great deal of value and I think a great foundation to stand upon in the war on tyranny.

Fleabaggs
Fleabaggs
  Steve C
December 14, 2018 3:39 pm

Steve…
Right about the Co-opting and with it comes the Mittens Romney Timidity. Don’t make waves. They have co-opted and neutered more than just the LP. Barr was the final straw though. That was my final “I’m fed up and not taking any more Prisoners” moment.

MrLiberty
MrLiberty
December 14, 2018 3:35 pm

And naturally the principle of self ownership extends to everything. If the government decides what I can purchase as food, medicine, and intoxicating substances, and if the government decides who I must sell my labor to, who I must associate with, what I cannot do with my own body, what or who I can or cannot put into my own body, and pretty much EVERYTHING that has to do with my own body, then the government owns me (whether I consent or not). That is slavery. In my opinion, the absolute BEST starting point with anyone on the subject of freedom and liberty is the question “who owns you?” It ultimately leads to the discussion of everything that matters.

4Bits
4Bits
December 14, 2018 3:55 pm

“I’m going to throw my mea culpa out before I say anything else, which is that I lack any formal education beyond the ninth grade and this is my first attempt at writing any sort of an article, so if this is hard to follow it is not that the I’m going to throw my mea culpa out before I say anything else, which is that I lack any formal education beyond the ninth grade and this is my first attempt at writing any sort of an article, so if this is hard to follow it is not that the concepts are esoteric or difficult it is merely my inability to coherently convey my thoughts. I am also still learning how to structure sentences and paragraphs as well as how to use grammar and punctuation, so for those errors I apologize in advance.”

Well, I could offer to edit / proof read for you – but, that would be a waste of time. There is nothing that I could do to improve this article.

I am impressed, well done. Excellent article. Write more:)

Anonymous
Anonymous
December 14, 2018 5:05 pm

Dear Grizz

This was quite excellent.

Regarding your question about self ownership- Immanuel Kant had the best critique of the self-ownership doctrine while still advocating strongly for inalienable individual freedom/rights.

Reading him is tough going, so I would recommend Michael Sandel’s book “Justice” for a great summary of Kant’s thinking on this topic along with an excellent general discussion of the origins of natural rights philosophy.

Happy Holidays
Capt Willard

BB
BB
  Anonymous
December 14, 2018 5:34 pm

I agree with everything you write .The only problem is the state doesn’t play by those rules .The state is power and violence . Just try not paying that 50% in taxes And see what happens. Also The weathy elite pay by a different set of rules. Look at how much shit white people taken from the black civil rights racket . I just someone would tell those bastards to go fuck themselves .It is nauseating how white bow down to these creatures and how it’s been going on now for 50 years. Why do whites do this . For most it is Fear of the state. I understand what’s you are saying but how has this individualism worked out for whites ? The only reason Trump was elected is that for once a Marjory of whites stuck together. Good effort but unless whites have a radical shift towards tribalism we are going to lose every right you speak about. Freedom of assocation is already gone for whites.Think about it.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  BB
December 14, 2018 7:29 pm

BB, I agree. Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more on the nature of the state. My opinion of it is in alignment with yours.

The agent of the state, whether politician, law enforcer, bureaucrat or whatever is is in a position to rent the coercive power of the state to the highest bidder. In other words using violence, or the threat of violence to do the bidding of whoever is willing to pay him the most. He can offer special interest groups that he will pass legislation, block legislation, enforce, or refuse to enforce in such a manner that will benefit the special interest group and weaken it’s competitors. He can also forcibly transfer resources from others to his special interest group through taxation and subsidies. That in a nutshell is what the state is all about. The rent of violent coercion of the masses to the highest bidder.

Also there is a double standard for agents of the state. All of us dirt people are held to a set of laws, regulations and rules that do not apply to the man of the state. This double standard is forcibly imposed on the rest of us. Why should anyone respect or support anyone who claims a different set of rules than the rest of us must follow? Why would the man of the state bother with rules if he knows he can flaunt them?

So as I see it your choice is to be an agent of the state selling your influence to the highest bidder, submit to the state and be livestock that gets milked sheared and butchered, or work to shackle or dismantle the state.

I agree with you totally about sticking together and that was part of the point of my article. The thing is that the power elite have this little game they like to play that keeps us bickering among ourselves rather than focusing on the man behind the curtain. That game is called divide and conquer. They pick out one group of people who they perceive as a threat to their power structure and then using lies, pit other groups against the first group. This is why white people find themselves in the position they are in today. The lie that libertarians are individualists is just one more example of how that game is played.

When you ask me how all this individualism has worked out for whites I need you to tell me what you mean by all this individualism. If you are talking about the libertarian philosophy you missed the point of the article, because that individualism is a fallacy.

One other thing I might add is that the NRA is a great example of people coalescing around an ideal and turning it into action. I might also point out that the NRA has a predominance of libertarians and other folks who hold libertarian sentiments. We can definitely make our impact felt by coming together.

Uncola
Uncola
December 14, 2018 5:25 pm

Bravo, GB. That was fantastic. I loved it and mainly wanted to tell you that for now.

Next, I want to read it (and the comments) again when I have more time this weekend. After that, I MAY (likely) comment again (even if this post goes to TBP page’s 2 and beyond).

In the interim, however, I’ll be thinking about this:

We only ask that our association be voluntary and not coerced

I believe I own my body pursuant to inalienable rights. That said, I believe there is a quid pro quo which can occur even with a non-corrupt state; if there is such a thing – and if there were – then it would look a lot like moral law, specifically, addressing what the author and philosopher, Ayn Rand, identified as the smallest minority: The individual.

From there, I would compare the idea of morality (ethics) and then by the light of real-world (common-sense) pragmatism. For example, is Libertarianism practical in light of societal/state/national defense? How about defending against the corrupted self-interest of evil folks (at home or abroad)? Or tending to the needs of those afflicted in a civilized society?

And, finally, can all of that be discussed without addressing the other entities that you feel may take this most excellent article off track? I mean, has that ever been done throughout history? Ever? Can it, therefore, be avoided in today’s reality (besides, perhaps, on this single thread)?

You’ve asked many of questions. So have the other commenters and I. Where do we find the answers? Seriously.

I hope to see more posts from you

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Uncola
December 14, 2018 8:48 pm

Thanks Unc. Yep, a whole world of difference between real world pragmatism and ideological philosophy, but that doesn’t invalidate the philosophy, it just means it has to be tested. Kind of like scientific theory has to be scrutinized through testing in the lab, but you have to start with something.

Regarding whether it is practical I think there is sufficient evidence to prove that liberty and prosperity flourish whenever and to whatever extent libertarian principles are allowed to exist. The experiment of the founding of the United States being a prime example, until it was derailed. There are many others.

Uncola
Uncola
  Grizzly Bare
December 14, 2018 10:39 pm

GB said:

…liberty and prosperity flourish whenever and to whatever extent libertarian principles are allowed to exist.

OR – where a moral and “other entities” people allow them to exist?

Because John Adams said:

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other

Which raises the question: “What derailed it?”

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Uncola
December 14, 2018 11:23 pm

Unc, I’m only pretending to have the answers here. My belief is that the state will always derail. It is the nature of the beast. The state is the concentration of power. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The more top heavy it becomes the farther off the rails it will go.

Stucky
Stucky
December 14, 2018 5:48 pm

You sure as hell DON’T write as someone with just a 9th grade education!!! You write better than most college grads … and that’s no bullshit. You know how you get better at writing? By writing more!! So, now that you’ve cracked open that jar, I expect many more excellent writings such as this one.

The damn library closes in 8 minutes. I’ll be back tomorrow to comment on the article.

Again. Congrats.

no one
no one
  Stucky
December 14, 2018 7:32 pm

I made a comment about trying to be “sovereign” and came upon this tidbit: the Latin Vulgar root for sovereign means superanus. I thought you might enjoy that factoid.

“The word sovereign comes from the Old French word soverain, meaning “highest, supreme, chief” and from the Vulgar Latin word *superanus, meaning “chief, principal.” Based on all the definitions of the word sovereign in the previous two paragraphs, a sovereign is “a king” or “a chief or ruler with supreme power.”

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Stucky
December 14, 2018 9:05 pm

Thank you Stucky.

Chubby Bubbles
Chubby Bubbles
December 14, 2018 6:17 pm

This is a pretty good article, but I have a few issues with it:

1.) I’ve come to recognize that there are no such thing as “rights”. What you might think are “rights” are either a.) what you are capable of taking, defending, or maintaining by force, or b.) what you can convince other people to concede to you. I’m open to other options here, if anyone can think of any.

2.) The idea of “ownership” still implies a state function: someone has to keep track of who owns what. The parameters of this differ from society to society. In Mexico, the age of consent is 12; in some U.S. states I think it is 18(!). What can you do with a child you “own”? Can you make it do yard work? How much yard work? Can you give it pierced ears? Tattoos? Can a 17-y.o. “child” be guilty of “child porn” for taking a naked picture of itself? Lots more questions along these sorts of lines.

3.) NAP: non-aggression principle. This works great when everyone is on the same page. What happens when an NAP group is forced to abide with NNAP-ers, as we see evolved in various places today? A not-insignificant number of people on the planet do not want a live-and-let-live situation. They have other programming.

I knew a lot of libertarians in college. Among intelligent, well-off people of common mind it made perfect sense. Do whatever you want as long as it doesn’t hurt somebody else. But how do you measure hurt? Does it hurt most people in a rural American town if a mosque is built down the street with private funds? Does it hurt you if someone builds a chemical plant next door? In the case of the chemical plant, I think libertarians would say that recourse should be through the courts via civil lawsuits. This would still require a State structure to process claims. And then the hurt has to be something that can be technically measured and quantified in quatloons. Since these were all nerds, this idea of quantifying everything in quatloons didn’t phase them, particularly. While I appreciated many of their arguments in spirit, I think there was still something lacking to them.

no one
no one
  Chubby Bubbles
December 14, 2018 6:32 pm

I had to go check… it really is 12!

Age of consent is 12 in Mexico; will Raniere get back to man-girl sex?

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Chubby Bubbles
December 14, 2018 8:25 pm

There is no perfect philosophy when when it comes to governing the interactions of humans, since we are all humans and there are no perfect humans, but that doesn’t invalidate the question, because obviously, being less prone to abuse, some forms of government are better suited to human nature than others. Whatever form of government we are talking about, libertarian, republic, democracy, monarchy or dictatorship, it’s only the people who are governed that can prevent it’s abuses. If the people are corrupt, lazy, apathetic or ignorant they can’t prevent any form of governance from being subverted and corrupted to arbitrary rule. The constitution is only a worthless piece of paper unless the people make it sacred and hold the agents of the government to it.
.

I don’t know if this sufficiently addresses any of your objections, but Hans Herman Hoppe wrote,

“it assumes that the danger of private warlords is worse than the threat posed by a tyrannical central government. States are bullies that collect their revenue through theft and manage their populations through threats of punishment. They use other incentives, such as tax breaks, but their existence depends on keeping their populations fearful of reprisals. Of course they don’t want to be seen as thieves or bullies — they want our allegiance. So, to win our favor they manufacture crises through lawmaking and other interventions, shift blame elsewhere, then use the crises to justify further interventions, calling on us for support as they continue meddling in our lives. Meanwhile our natural liberty gradually erodes as state power expands.”

I wish I could attribute the following quote to it’s rightful author, but he/she is unknown to me.

“There will, however, always be those among us who wish to live off the production of others by way of aggression, true, but far from this being a reason for the existence of a state, this is rather the greatest reason for its abolition, since theory and history have shown it will primarily be these predatory people who will attach themselves to the reins of it. In a free society, there will still be theft, assault, battery, murder, kidnapping, and all the rest of the evils associated with our existence, but at least the prevalence of these immoral acts won’t be subsidized or directly provisioned by an uncontrollable territorial monopolist of violence who unilaterally decides the price paid for its ‘services.'”

Nation states are a rather modern development. As you go back in history, government is gradually less and less significant thus less harmful. the whole of human history proves that having little or no “government” works perfectly well or our ancestors would have died out and we wouldn’t be here. On the other hand, our development of modern governments of nation states has brought the wholesale slaughter of millions. Which overall proves to be positively hazardous to humans and humanity.


“It’s only been a little more than 100 years since most people lived their entire lives without any contact with — or need of — government.” –Neal Wright

None Ya Biz
None Ya Biz
  Grizzly Bare
January 7, 2019 4:05 pm

Well, the obvious point is that no one has the right to govern you, that is if you do not trespass.

The next question is how do people that live by the NAP deal with those that chose to trespass!

This is a hotly contested issue. My take is the venue the transgression occurred in obtains the violator to determine the guilt of said transgression.

Sometimes the guilty may go free but for one innocent to be hanged is criminal. This is the basis of what was to be the u. S. justice system. Sadly that no longer exist.

None Ya Biz
None Ya Biz
  None Ya Biz
January 7, 2019 4:06 pm

BTW, I think hanging needs to be reinstated in all 50 states. Ghastly thing hanging.

AnarchoPagan
AnarchoPagan
December 14, 2018 7:16 pm

Grizzly,
Seems like you hold basically the same philosophy that I held up until a couple of years ago, so I totally sympathize with what you’re saying. FWIW, I think the key distinction between libertarians and anarchists is that libertarians will tolerate some degree of coercion in the public sphere, such as taxes, while anarchists believe that everything can be arranged voluntarily.

The problem with libertarianism is that it provides no basis for opposition to immigration, multiculturalism, and moral relativism, coercive opposition if necessary. There is no argument for preference in immigration for white Europeans; that’s collectivism, right? There is no argument for limiting immigration at all, it’s just freedom of movement, right? There’s no argument for coercive moral policing of the public sphere, but can social cohesion and social trust survive without it?

Believe me, I would be thrilled if the blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, and assorted others would adopt libertarian philosophy en masse and live among us as peaceful, productive individuals. But the data says they won’t. Reason, debate and education aren’t going to change their culture. The awful truth of history is that race matters, and culture matters. And even aside from that, in a given area there can be only one dominant culture; where can our culture thrive, if we have no homeland?

One of the things I love about libertarian philosophy is it’s intellectual grandeur, the logical deduction of a complex political- intellectual philosophy from a few simple, almost incontrovertible premises. Now I no longer have the assurance of certainty, of easy logical conclusions. I just decided that Western civilization is too precious to lose.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  AnarchoPagan
December 14, 2018 10:24 pm

AP, that is the best argument against libertarian thought that I’ve heard so far, but I would quibble a bit on some points. True, the difference between anarchists and libertarians is the degree to which they would dismantle the state. Anarchists would take the libertarian’s objective of reducing it to a very limited government to it’s logical conclusion which is the complete absence of government. I have no problem with anarchy. I consider anarchists and libertarians brothers of the same cloth going in the same direction. One just wants to get off the bus a little bit before it arrives at the terminal while the other is on board until the bus is parked and put away. For the sake of discussion I lump them together under the libertarian banner because of the negative connotation the word anarchy has. When you use the word anarchy people envision berserk bomb throwers.

As for your concerns with immigration, Hoppe settles those pretty well in this article.

Are Open Borders Libertarian?

“Believe me, I would be thrilled if the blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, and assorted others would adopt libertarian philosophy en masse and live among us as peaceful, productive individuals. But the data says they won’t. Reason, debate and education aren’t going to change their culture.”

I grew up in Colorado in an area with a high Hispanic population. I went to school with them and then worked with them. I have no problem with their culture. All of them that I was around spoke English and had a work ethic that put the vast majority of whites to shame. Not to mention they make about the best food on the planet and know how to enjoy a real good time. As far as being peaceful and productive they are probably on par with white people percentage-wise. The hispanic problem is that their importation has been subsidized by the uniparty. I realize there is a point where we have to say enough is enough, but without the subsidies I don’t think it would be nearly the problem it is. Again Hoppe addresses this rather well in the above article.

Black culture is something else. Black culture is the direct result of Johnson’s Great Society. Prior to the Great Society black people were virtually entirely a class of productive working people. They lived in two parent nuclear families and extended families. They had manners, spoke correct English, went to church, pursued an education and were sincerely interested in bettering themselves. The welfare state destroyed all that. We pay black women to be single mothers and the more keeyids they pop out the more they get paid. Take that away and that culture will change real fast. I’m sure you understand that what you subsidize you get more of and what you tax you get less of. One of the biggest flaws of the state is that they have to tax the productive to subsidize the non-productive. Remove the state and those problems will all but disappear.

Muslim culture is bizarre. Columbus discovered the new world trying to sail to the orient going the long way around the world in an effort to avoid the muslims and the middle east. Left to themselves, they were not much of a problem to us before the CIA and neocons started stirring up shit in the ME. Of course the fact that they were sitting on all that oil made it a forgone conclusion, but you have to admit that our regime change programs over there going back to 1953 and our wars and other misguided adventures have created a monster. I believe blowback is the term for that. Were it not for those misguided adventures Europe would not be having the immigration crisis they are having. Again these problems can all be laid at the doorstep of the state.

Entangling alliances with foreign powers like the Saudis and Israel can also be added to the list of errors of the state. Multiculturalism and moral relativism are pushed by the state.

It seems obvious to me that the problem is the state. Remove the cancer that is the state and most of this crap goes away with it.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Grizzly Bare
December 14, 2018 10:28 pm

I would also add that the biggest concern for most people in the US concerning immigration is the demographics swinging the left right political paradigm. Remove the state and the point is moot.

no one
no one
December 14, 2018 7:26 pm

My husband and I discuss the idea of “Sovereign Man” from time to time. Of course, here in our part of the Ozarks, we just paid our property taxes, so we realize the cost of being (or pretending to be) sovereign. Since moving and working hard to build a home, a barn and a few out buildings for animals, our efforts have resulting in more than tripling our property tax.

We are pretty isolated here, able to do pretty much as we please without nosy neighbors or invasive local authority. However, our “sovereign” status depends upon our being able to pay our rent to the state in the form of taxes.

So, we seem to own our own bodies… as long as we can pay the rent (taxes.)

A True Sovereign is a Living Man Who Knows How to Live in Harmony with Natural Law

A sovereign is a living man (“male” or “female”) who is responsible and accountable for all his actions. He is competent and does not need other persons (e.g., politicians and attorneys) to represent him in legal and political affairs. He also knows how to exercise his natural rights and live in harmony with Natural Law and Nature. Because of these qualities, he is the king of his kingdom and no government can lawfully tell him what to do or how to manage his kingdom.

When it comes to true freedom and sovereignty, the most important principle that you need to study is Natural Law. A Dictionary of Law (1889) defines the term Natural Law using these exact words: “The rule of human action prescribed by the Creator, and discoverable by the light of reason.” In other words, Natural Law is the Law of the Creator and can be known by the light of reason. Something important you need to know about Natural Law is that it is an intrinsic part of man, which is why it can be known and “discoverable by the light of reason.”

https://www.wakingtimes.com/2018/01/03/what-is-a-sovereign-being/

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  no one
December 14, 2018 10:56 pm

I’d definitely agree with that author that you can’t have freedom, liberty or sovereignty without responsibility.

Dennis Roe
Dennis Roe
December 14, 2018 9:25 pm

You pop out of mom’s womb and get handed a birth certificate. Then you get herded up with the other sheep to attend school to learn the basic tenents, Consume and Obey. License to drive, permit to build, may I please take a shit sir? Join the military to fight people 5 thousand miles away while your own country is overrun by barbarians. Or just become a corporate fuckhead, cog in the machine a brick in the wall. Staring at computers, phones and TV’s till your dead. Anyone who overcomes this shit , the madness and coercion, the constant dead weight of jerkoffs and clowns, crushing you into conformity….anyone who gets thru it as true individuals, is a fuckin hero.

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  Dennis Roe
December 14, 2018 11:08 pm

Fuck yeah! Dennis you are my TBP hero. The saltiest of the salt of the earth. Life really is a bitch. I’ll bet you’re pretty good at telling the fuckheads, jerkoffs and clowns to go take a flying leap. Spring time comes y’all take a fishing trip. It does wonders for resetting your coping mechanism.

None Ya Biz
None Ya Biz
  Dennis Roe
January 7, 2019 4:32 pm

I just want to point out that people reading this thread do so because it is available. not due to a bc.

Mary Christine
Mary Christine
December 14, 2018 10:24 pm

Grizzly proves that sometimes and maybe many times you are better off dropping out of school as long as you keep seeking knowledge. I never went to college and barely graduated because I was bored.

Dennis Roe said:
“You pop out of mom’s womb and get handed a birth certificate.”

No one went there. Who’s body is it when there are two bodies?

no one
no one
  Mary Christine
December 15, 2018 11:47 am

There was a local news story (anywhere from Paducah, Ky to Carbondale, Ill to Sikeston, Mo (I think it was Sikeston)) about a dead newborn and the arrest of the young woman (19/20ish) who birthed and killed it, discarding it in a trash bin.

Isn’t this just late term abortion?

Mary Christine
Mary Christine
  no one
December 15, 2018 11:56 am

It has been renamed post-birth abortion. I kid you not.

TampaRed
TampaRed
December 15, 2018 12:30 am

good article grizzly–
the link i’m posting is a bit off topic but it does concern individual rights-
a coalition of 20 states had challenged the legality of obamacare–
a judge in dallas just ruled that ocare is indeed unconstitutional–after the appellate level,hopefully the scotus will rule again & this time get it correct–

https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-federal-judge-rules-obamacare-unconstitutional-015535506.html

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
December 15, 2018 3:18 am

I own me; God gave (made) me (my body) to me. Of course… there could be no else. I rule me. (As a saved person, with a Book that helps a lot!)

Commandments? I’m not a child.

1 Corinthians 10:23 KJV… “All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”

Nice question Grizzly Bare!

Then again…

1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV… “What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

How might one reckon the apparent dichotomy?

Understood you didn’t want to bring “Creation” into this, but it can’t not fit somehow.

Something’s up here. My 2 cents anyway.

Peace!

Grizzly Bare
Grizzly Bare
  grace country pastor
December 15, 2018 11:24 am

GCP, I agree, it can’t not fit somehow. There was a hell of a lot more I could have said on a lot of different tangents, spirituality being one. I thought it went pretty long the way it was.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  Grizzly Bare
December 15, 2018 12:15 pm

Keep on speaking on GB… well done!