WILL THE MILITARY SHOOT YOU DOWN LIKE DOGS? – OPEN THREAD

There seems to be a notion among  intellectuals that the U.S. Military would never conduct military operations against the citizens of the United States. I find that laughable, as the list below proves. American troops have been used against civilians since the inception of our country. Those in power will use everything at their disposal to retain that power, including using troops to slaughter Americans that choose to dissent. The persistent “training exercises” taking place in and around U.S. cities is not a coincidence. Those in power know our economic situation is tenuous and a collapse is on the horizon. I believe that National Guard and Federal troops will fire on Americans when ordered to do so. What do you think? 

 

  • The Whiskey Rebellion, or Whiskey Insurrection, was a tax protest in the United States beginning in 1791, during the presidency of George Washington. Farmers who sold their grain in the form of whiskey had to pay a new tax which they strongly resented. The tax was a part of treasury secretary Alexander Hamilton‘s program to pay off the national debt. On the western frontier, protesters used violence and intimidation to prevent federal officials from collecting the tax. Resistance came to a climax in July 1794, when a U.S. marshal arrived in western Pennsylvania to serve writs to distillers who had not paid the excise. The alarm was raised, and more than 500 armed men attacked the fortified home of tax inspector General John Neville. Washington responded by sending peace commissioners to western Pennsylvania to negotiate with the rebels, while at the same time calling on governors to send a militia force to suppress the violence. With 15,000 militia provided by the governors of Virginia, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania, Washington rode at the head of an army to suppress the insurgency. The rebels all went home before the arrival of the army, and there was no confrontation. About 20 men were arrested, but all were later acquitted or pardoned. The issue fueled support for the new opposition Democratic Republican Party, which repealed the tax when it came to power in Washington in 1801.

 

  • The New York City draft riots (July 13 to July 16, 1863; known at the time as Draft Week[2]) were violent disturbances in New York City that were the culmination of working-class discontent with new laws passed by Congress that year to draft men to fight in the ongoing American Civil War. The riots were the largest civil insurrection in American history.[3] President Abraham Lincoln diverted several regiments of militia and volunteer troops from following up after the Battle of Gettysburg to control the city. The rioters were overwhelmingly working-class men, primarily ethnic Irish, resenting particularly that wealthier men, who could afford to pay a $300 commutation fee to hire a substitute, were spared the draft.[4][5] Initially intended to express anger at the draft, the protests turned into an ugly race riot, with the white rioters attacking blacks wherever they could be found. At least 100 black people were estimated to have been killed. The conditions in the city were such that Major General John E. Wool, commander of the Department of the East, stated on July 16, “Martial law ought to be proclaimed, but I have not a sufficient force to enforce it.”[6] The military did not reach the city until after the first day of rioting, when mobs had already ransacked or destroyed numerous buildings, including public buildings and homes of abolitionist sympathizers, many black homes, and the Colored Orphan Asylum at 44th Street and Fifth Avenue, which was burned to the ground. The children were not harmed.[7] The exact death toll during the New York Draft Riots is unknown, but according to historian James M. McPherson (2001), at least 120 civilians were killed. At least eleven black men were lynched.[20] Violence by longshoremen against black men was especially fierce in the docks area.[7] 

 

  • The Great Railroad Strike of 1877, sometimes referred to as the Great Upheaval, began on July 14 in Martinsburg, West Virginia, United States and ended some 45 days later after it was put down by local and state militias, and federal troops.

 

  • The Pullman Strike was a nationwide conflict between the new American Railway Union (ARU) and railroads that occurred in the United States in summer 1894. It shut down much of the nation’s freight and passenger traffic west of Detroit. The conflict began in the town of Pullman, Illinois, on May 11 when nearly 4,000 employees of the Pullman Palace Car Company began a wildcat strike in response to recent reductions in wages. Under instruction from President Grover Cleveland, a Democrat, US Attorney General Richard Olney (formerly a lawyer for a railroad) dealt with the strike. Olney obtained an injunction in federal court barring union leaders from supporting the strike and demanding that the strikers cease their activities or face being fired. Debs and other leaders of the ARU ignored the injunction, and federal troops were called up to enforce it.[9] While Debs had been reluctant to start the strike he now threw his energies into organizing it. Debs not only ignored the federal court injunction he instead called a general strike of all union members in Chicago, but it was opposed by Samuel Gompers, head of American Federation of Labor, and other established unions, and failed.[10] City by city the federal forces broke the ARU efforts to shut down the national transportation system Thousands of United States Marshals and some 12,000 United States Army troops, commanded by Nelson Miles took action. President Cleveland wanted the trains moving again and his legal basis was his constitutional responsibility for the mails. His lawyers also argued that the boycott violated the Sherman Antitrust Act, and represented a threat to public safety. The arrival of the military and subsequent deaths of workers led to further outbreaks of violence. During the course of the strike, 13 strikers were killed and 57 were wounded. Property damage exceeded $80 million.

 

  • The Bonus Army was the popular name of an assemblage of some 43,000 marchers—17,000 World War I veterans, their families, and affiliated groups—who gathered in Washington, D.C., in the spring and summer of 1932 to demand immediate cash-payment redemption of their service certificates. Its organizers called it the Bonus Expeditionary Force to echo the name of World War I‘s American Expeditionary Force, while the media called it the Bonus March. It was led by Walter W. Waters, a former Army sergeant. Many of the war veterans had been out of work since the beginning of the Great Depression. The World War Adjusted Compensation Act of 1924 had awarded them bonuses in the form of certificates they could not redeem until 1945. Each service certificate, issued to a qualified veteran soldier, bore a face value equal to the soldier’s promised payment plus compound interest. The principal demand of the Bonus Army was the immediate cash payment of their certificates. Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler, one of the most popular military figures of the time, visited their camp to back the effort and encourage them.[1] On July 28, U.S. Attorney General William D. Mitchell ordered the veterans removed from all government property. Washington police met with resistance, shots were fired and two veterans were wounded and later died. Veterans were also shot dead at other locations during the demonstration. President Herbert Hoover then ordered the army to clear the veterans’ campsite. Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur commanded the infantry and cavalry supported by six tanks. The Bonus Army marchers with their wives and children were driven out, and their shelters and belongings burned.

 

  • The 1967 Detroit riot, also known as the 12th Street riot, was a civil disturbance in Detroit, Michigan, US that began in the early morning hours of Sunday, July 23, 1967. The precipitating event was a police raid of an unlicensed, after-hours bar then known as a blind pig, on the corner of 12th (today Rosa Parks Boulevard) and Clairmount streets on the city’s Near West Side. Police confrontations with patrons and observers on the street evolved into one of the deadliest and most destructive riots in United States history, lasting five days and surpassing the violence and property destruction of Detroit’s 1943 race riot. To help end the disturbance, Governor George W. Romney ordered the Michigan National Guard into Detroit, and President Lyndon B. Johnson sent in Army troops. The result was 43 dead, 467 injured, over 7,200 arrests, and more than 2,000 buildings destroyed.

 

  • The Kent State shootings—also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre[2][3][4]—occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.[5] Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance.[6][7]
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SAH
SAH
September 4, 2012 10:02 pm

@Llpoh, I quoted Patton because I believe he understood leadership. It isn’t a comment on staging a coup, it’s about loyalty.

I think Millennials will be most likely to accept leadership and show loyalty to whatever authority is most loyal to them. So far, the nearsighted government is fucking the Millennials over (and the less consequential GenX) in every way imaginable.

I hope that there is a 3rd option out of this mess, because Im optimistic – however, Ron Paul was the most realistic option and that isnt happening. Maybe there is still another way out, I hope you can help come up with it, everyone needs to try to find it. What appear to be the options now are are a choice between totalitarianismCoke and totalitarianismPepsi.

Persnickety
Persnickety
September 4, 2012 10:05 pm

Re: that cute little blue truck, AWD said: “When they start sending them into your neighborhood, it’s time to start worrying.”

Yeah. When I see them here I’ll know that there will be a scrap metal disposal problem a couple hours later, but many of my neighbors will have the tools and motivation to address it.

My neighborhood may be different from yours. We aren’t likely to ever see those anyway.

Hey, when an actual military MRAP truck shows up, then there may be something to worry about… maybe.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 4, 2012 10:12 pm

I have no problem when it comes to being loyal to those so deserving. Patton was loyal to his commanders when he should have disobeyed re the Bonus Army. His loyalty was mis-placed. He was not a shining star in that moment at least.

Loyalty can lead to very bad things. Cops should be loyal to the people, rather than to other cops, an politicians should be loyal to the people. People should not be loyal to politicians, but that is what happens. Ted Kennedy, shithead extraordinaire, was elected time and again. The list goes on and on. Loyalty without ethics is worth nothing. Blind loyalty is a severe problem.

Kill Bill
Kill Bill
September 4, 2012 10:22 pm

I worked on an Air Force base in Oklahoma for a bit [Tinker] replacing landing gear and some other stuff. The military isnt run like it use to be. To say that the XM’s dominate it would be a stretch. Alot of stuff was being contracted out. As always the newbies are young but the rank and file, guys being their 20-30 years are still around. I also noticed this at a heavy maintenance facility in Alabama (military contractor) for the KC-135 refuelers.

The fact is the military depends heavily on contractors to build, repair and maintain equipment. So obsolete old farts like me can rule politics, the media, government and dictate your life and abrogate your optimism.

Kill Bill
Kill Bill
September 4, 2012 10:26 pm

I concur llpoh, blind loyalty is not a good thing. Respect and trust are more important IMB

Ron
Ron
September 4, 2012 10:28 pm

A military coup is my idea of the only people who could force the government to listen to the people.

harry p.
harry p.
September 4, 2012 10:35 pm

it will go down something like this methinks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qWADMfQnQ&feature=youtu.be

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 4, 2012 10:43 pm

I have the issue of loyalty come up at work all the time. I do not expect my employees to be loyal – the only thing I ask of them is that they earn their pay and are honest. It is a business agreement, and the agreement is I pay and they work. Simple.

However, it is very often that they expect me to be loyal – to employ them during downturn, to provide them unlimited overtime, etc during economic downturns, etc because I owe them because they have worked here 5 years or ten years or whatever. They actually say that to me. My response is always the same – I paid you every week. I have met all of my legal obligations, and my first obligation is to the welfare of the business, and that by keeping that as my obligation, in the end a great many employees benefit. Businesses that go broke help no one. Further, I will not send myself personally broke in order to sustain a failing business. I have seen a lot of business owners lose everything trying to save a failing business and by keeping too many employees too long as they had a sense of loyalty to them, instead of to the business.

Some of my employees are gold-plated, and I take care of them. It is a business decision more so than a loyalty decision. Business can be quite ruthless. When decisions are made for personal reasons rather than business ones, the business will struggle to survive.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 4, 2012 10:54 pm

So Stucky, you claim to have been in the USAF……BEFORE they repealed Don’t Ask Don’t Tell??? I find that hard to believe. You are fruitier by far than your average thumb ring wearing Obama lover.

Stucky
Stucky
September 4, 2012 11:14 pm

USAF Sept 1971 – Sept 1975

I had a close friend while stationed in Greece. One day we go see a movie. He tells me he like this certain charater. I said I didn’t because he acted like such a “queer”. He looked at me in shock, and asked “Then why do you like me?”. WTF?????

I had no fucking clue he was gay. I never asked. He never told me. It worked out just fine .. until he told me, without me asking.

I may be fruity but I don’t swing that way. Shit, I even hated changing my son’s diapers for fear of touchin “it”. I’m a homophobe to the core.

llpoh
llpoh
September 4, 2012 11:17 pm

That is……….disturbing.

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 4, 2012 11:19 pm

Doppelgänger – try harder. Too pitiful.

Stucky
Stucky
September 4, 2012 11:26 pm

lol

Nah. It’s not like he ever made “advances” or anything. he didn’t have a lisp or talk like a fag. He hid his orientation very very well. Our friendship waned after the revelation. We were both uncomfortable knowing. He was scared to death that I would rat him out. lol But I don’t swing that way either — destroying a friend ,regardless— and his secret was safe.

I HATE rate bastards. Whenever a squealer gets killed in a movie, I cheer wildly inside, even if was a good guy.

llpoh
llpoh
September 4, 2012 11:45 pm

Or is it???

SAH
SAH
September 5, 2012 1:08 am

@KillBill – Boomers are in deep denial of their elderly state.

GenX is between 31-48 years old right now (up to 52 yrs old if you use Strauss Howe definition for X). They guys in the Military currently with 13-30 years experience are GenXers many of whom have been in Dessert Storm, OEF, and OIF. They are by no means newbies.

Millennials turned 30 this year, those born in ’82 who went in at 18 already have over a decade in combat and multiple tours. Every member of the Military between the ages of 18-30 is a Millennial. They have been following GenX COs on the ground in battle.

Boomers aged out already, and even the Boomer Generals are retired:
General Tommy Franks, born 1945 is retired.
General John Abizaid, born 1951 is retired.
General Stanley McChrystal born 1954 is retired.

Or Will Retire Soon:
General Martin Dempsy, born 1952 Boomer.
General Patraeus, born 1952 Boomer.
So, yeah, there are still a couple younger Boomers left, not many though.

While those under 50 haven’t even got a seat at the table in politics, GenX and Millennials own the military of today. Not just Newbies – commanders with 20-30 years experience too. GenX will be all of the Generals shortly, and still won’t have a seat in politics, probably never will if Boomers have their way.

SSS
SSS
September 5, 2012 1:11 am

“That doesn’t mean that an SSS type, on top of a building nearby, might not initiate a fire fight by popping a trooper in the noggin just to heat things up. (Nothing personal SSS – you know what I’m trying to illustrate here.)”
—-Muck About

No, Mucky, I don’t know what you’re trying to illustrate here, nor do I know what an “SSS type” looks like. You need to tell me what I have ever said on this blog which confirms or even implies that I would conspire, much less approve, actions for Americans to start killing each other.

If you or others don’t care for the fact that I am a retired Air Force and CIA employee, I get that and accept and expect the criticism that comes with the territory. What I will not stand for are implications that I personally would conspire to create violence in my country and turn against my fellow citizens.

Please elaborate what an “SSS type” looks like.

Anonymous
Anonymous
September 5, 2012 1:44 am

Dont know where else to post this – 92 year old guns down intruder of his home. Damn, need to leave old folks alone. You listening SAH?

http://nky.cincinnati.com/article/AB/20120903/NEWS010703/309030021/Verona-man-92-shoots-robber-home?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

Llpoh
Llpoh
September 5, 2012 1:48 am

That was me.

SAH
SAH
September 5, 2012 11:11 am

I support the gunning down of any home intruder, regardless of the age of the participants. Gun the fuckers down — that is less mess in the Courts and one less reoffender back out on the streets. I’ll even donate to a carpet-cleaning fund for any citizen who does this great service to society in defense of their home and individual liberty.

Better leave those Millennial Moms alone too:
http://gma.yahoo.com/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder-911-operators-okay-091106413.html

I’m not real thrilled about the prospect of jack-booted-thugs backed by the government being the ones to kick our doors down. WTF are we supposed to do in that case? Not as clear, and a much bigger mess that carpet-cleaning won’t solve.

TeresaE
TeresaE
September 5, 2012 11:24 am

SAH says: “…I’m not real thrilled about the prospect of jack-booted-thugs backed by the government being the ones to kick our doors down. WTF are we supposed to do in that case? Not as clear, and a much bigger mess that carpet-cleaning won’t solve….”

Oh SAH, it is completely clear.

The Supremes have ruled time and again, they can kill you, your dog, your wife, your kids, if you try and defend your home.

And the jack-boots do not even need to pre-announce they are jack-boots. The jack-boots do not even need to be a the right address, looking for the right subject. They have ended up killing people serving child-support warrants.

It is perfectly clear, when it comes to ANY gov agent pulling a gun on you, you lose and they have all the “rights” while you have the right to try to dive for cover.

Scary, scary, scary precedents and rulings have already been made. We are there, we just haven’t admitted it yet.

DaveL
DaveL
September 5, 2012 12:10 pm

Shooting will be vdone by DHS, TSA, OSHA, HEW, NWS, NOAA, US Forest Service, IRS, USPS, AMTRAK and other non-military government agents. They will be joined by the NEA, AFT, AFL/CIO, UAW, SEIU, etc. Also, I don’t think the USMC is covered under Posse Comitatus

flash
flash
September 5, 2012 12:12 pm

Give a 19 year old moron an automatic riffle and the power to kill and you’ll be surprised at what they’re cable of.

Buckhed
Buckhed
September 5, 2012 1:02 pm

I had this question posed to me by my stepson who is an FBI agent about 10 years ago, ” What would you do if I came to your house to confiscate your guns ” ? I asked him if he was asking as my stepson or as an FBI agent ? He replied “as an FBI agent” . I told him that I’d shoot who ever came to my house to do the confiscation…including him .

Do I think the troops will fire on Americans…yep…when we are portrayed as terrorists and other distasteful terms;as people who are a threat to liberty and the ” American way of life” ..they won’t hesitate. It won’t change until they realize that like our forefathers before us …we the dissenting minority are fighting for freedom.

SAH
SAH
September 5, 2012 1:20 pm

@DaveL -correct, Posse Comitatus was Army and later added Airforce. Posse Comitatus, cliff notes version, required use of the Army and Airforce domestically to be CONSTITUTIONAL. That was what it is, in a nutshell. So, it never barred the military from responding in certain limited ways to natural disasters or emergencies, after all, that is a big part of what National Guard was always supposed to be. It only required that how they were used be Consititional.

Now, there isn’t that barrier. The Military is now a police force, can be used as one by the Executive, and how they are used doesn’t have to pass the Constitutional test anymore. That is what Constitutionl scholar Obama and his congress cronies did with the NDAA – found a way to bypass the constitution so they can legally use the Military as henchmen against the populace.

And, USMC is barred from domestic use by an internal directive that I can’t think of of the top of my head – this doesn’t change their status. But the directive can be changed internally without changing the law. Getting rid of Posse Comitatus was hard to do, and a huge blow to liberty.

Victor
Victor
September 5, 2012 9:44 pm

I was Army, and after my Army Service I went to National Guard. I was very well trained on how to DEAL WITH Pesky Americans who Resisted Authority.

Now I would have a real problem shooting Americans, Concervitives, or republicans, (Just kidding) but If ordered to, back then, I would not have hesitated to Follow Orders, not knowing the Constitution then. That is what the Elite count on. The Humanist teaching in Public Schools teaches our young people how to FOLLOW ORDERS without THINKING.

So Yes, I would be willing to bet money that our troops would not hesitate to fire upon Americans if Ordered to do so.

flash
flash
September 6, 2012 6:29 am

A rat by any other name is still a rat.

http://lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w278.html
Living in Amerika

by William Norman Grigg

According to Sgt. Huth, “We have to establish objective peace before we can move on to any community-building peace.” This is the language of military occupation: Pacify a targeted neighborhood, then try to win the “hearts and minds” of residents.

“There are those who still think they are holding the pass against a revolution that may be coming up the road. But they are gazing in the wrong direction. The revolution is behind them.”

September 6, 2012

William Norman Grigg [send him mail] publishes the Pro Libertate blog and hosts the Pro Libertate radio program.

Copyright © 2012 William Norman Grigg