On a recent thread, there were several comments regarding company CEO’s that are compassionate toward their employees – by retaining more employees than the business requires, or retaining poor or inefficient employees, etc. Let me tell you for sure and certain, no good deed goes unpunished is the likely outcome of any compassionate act.
First, let me address the issue of keeping more employees than the business requires. I simply do not do this. I will not do this. And I believe no business should do this. It is prohibitively expensive. It costs me around $60,000 per year per employee. For every one I keep beyond requirements, it will cost me that amount PLUS it will cost me possibly that and more as a result of the overall slowdown that will occur throughout the organization. You see, people like to work a bit of overtime. Excess people means no overtime. No overtime means people’s wages are affected. People respond by slowing down sufficiently that they believe overtime will be provided to catch up. So if I keep excess employees, in a show of compassion, I will get screwed. NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED will absolutely apply.
However, I do try to retain/hire/employ people that are very often otherwise unemployable, especially in jobs such as I offer that do provide middle-class income and benefits. I try to fit them in and work around their limitations. In general, it costs me perhaps three or four dollars per hour per each of these folks. To put that in perspective, it costs me – and by me I mean me personally, out of my own wallet – between $6000 and $8000 per year per each employee of this type that I have. As you can imagine, I do not let the number of these employees get too high. Perhaps three or four are on the books, at the most, depending on economic circumstances. It is charity on my part, pure and simple, and I do it as a public service, as a means of giving to the community, and as I think it is the right thing to do. But here are some of the results of trying to do a good deed:
1) I get my other employees stomping into my office complaining that so and so does not pull their weight. Which is true. I cannot tell them the reason why those folks are employed, or immediately upon leaving my office the aggrieved would go to so and so and tell him/her “You are only employed because the boss thinks you are a charity case and you need help” or some such. That would be great. So I basically have to tell the aggrieved to mind their own business, to pay attention to their own work, etc. And thus I get a disgruntled employee because I try to do a charitable thing. And disgruntled employees cost me money. Add some more to the $6k or $8k I am already funding.
2) These marginal employees make inordinate amounts of mistakes – quality, tool damage, etc. Add a bit more to the cost of employing them.
These marginal employees tend to get worse the longer they are employed. Some of them are as cunning as junkyard rats. They innately know that they are poor performers, and yet they continue to be employed. So they become even worse performers in order to see how far they can push it. Not very far is the answer, but it costs me time, and money, to show them the error of their ways, and usually, the door.
3) On the other end of the scale, some of them come to think they are actually God’s gift to an employer. After all, they have a job, so they must be ok, right? We recently had a softening in sales, and I had to reduce workforce. In these situations I will not continue to employ these marginal employees – no way in hell will I employ a marginal while having to lay off a good employee. That is totally unfair to the good employee. So what happens when I lay off one of these marginal? They jump up and down, scream that I am treating them unfairly as they are good employees and that surely I have something against them, tell me I am obliged to keep them on as they will not be able to find other work, threaten to sue, etc. Contrast that to when I have to lay off a good employee: they almost always understand (they are lots brighter and understand economic circumstance), they are thankful for the opportunity they have and the promise make to call them back as soon as conditions improve, and they are gracious in the face of adversity.
Again, it goes to show NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!
As I get older, it gets harder and harder to do the things that I believe in. I believe in these small acts of charity. I get no accolades or rewards for them – I do not care for those in any event. But I am sick and tired of being punished for doing what surely are good deeds. For my actions, not only do I pay a significant financial cost, but I pay an enormous personal cost. Each day I am less prepared to pay the price. At this point, I have advised managers that we will no longer employ substandard employees. Of course, I tend to relent when I see a sad case. But I believe it is far less likely that I will do so now. I am simply not as psychologically strong today as I was 10 years ago. The bastards have worn me down – the steady drip, drip, drip of water on the rock has had an effect over 35 years in manufacturing.
So, I say to those who believe that employers have an obligation to be compassionate and charitable, that there is much you do not understand unless you have been in the chair yourself, and have put up your own money, and have to deal with the problems that come along with trying to do the right thing. It is easy to tell business owners what they should do, but people need to realize that there are (almost) ALWAYS consequences for doing the right thing.
Make no mistake – NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED. It may not always be true. But it is substantially true, especially when dealing with employees.
Well written. Thanks for the testimony. And they almost passed some dumb ass law a year or so ago that would have prohibited discrimination in hiring on the basis of employment status. In other words, they would have made it illegal to consider an applicant’s having been out unemployed for a long time. I’m sorry, but that’s a primary consideration when it comes to hiring.
” It costs me around $60,000 per year per employee.”
How does an employee cost $60,000 per year?
What an employee gets paid by the hour is not the only cost. Workers comp unemployment insurence and on and on.
nice essay llpoh. thanks.
Curious – I am somewhat stunned by your question. Seriously, what the fuck do you do for a living? I suspect you are an employee, as anyone who runs a business would already know this stuff.
But lets see, to answer your question, say $800 per week wage = $42k. Add on payroll taxes, workers comp, etc/., so call it another $6 or $7k – though it is probably more. Add on benefits (you know, medical insurance and such) you pick the number, but lets say $8k. We are up to $57k so far.
Sprinkle in a bit of the cost of employing him like safety gear and those type things. Add in some overhead – like the cost of paying him (that does not happen for free, you know – I have to pay for that). Plus I have to manage his taxes for him – its da law. I have to send his taxes to the governments. I have to manage his employee records. I have to produce his pay slips and his tax forms. I have to pay for supervision. Etc. It is a few thousand dollars in cost for the admin portion of employing someone.
So there you have it – $60k more or less to employ someone on a middle class wage. Not counting overtime.
Seriously, how the fuck does Curious get 2 thumbs up so far for being an absolute numbskull?
Hollow man- I just want to know what contributes to an employee costing $60,000 per year? Seems outrageous and that certain factors are not included in the story. I thought the education an employee obtains by getting a college degree is suppose to offset the loses of an employer to hire workers. Am I missing something here?
“I get my other employees stomping into my office complaining that so and so does not pull their weight. Which is true.”
“So I basically have to tell the aggrieved to mind their own business, to pay attention to their own work, etc. And thus I get a disgruntled employee because I try to do a charitable thing”
So, what I am reading here is that a valuable worker should be silenced so the boss can feel like a do gooder? So they don’t have to feel guilt for firing a bad employee? So the right employees for the job should have to suffer a weak link? Seems like either I am reading this wrong or the author is not disclosing all the information. Why protect workers who do not measure up to the requirement of the job ?
Llpoh, I like your avatar; it looks like a pissed off Injun.
Let’s break down your “cost per employee”
“say $800 per week wage = $42k” – That is labor, not a luxury. You need workers, they preform the work to get paid, that is the cost of doing business. Not what an employee costs an employer. It is a rightfully earned wage.
“Add on payroll taxes, workers comp, etc/., so call it another $6 or $7k – though it is probably more.”
As required by the U.S. government. Once again, this is not a ridiculous expense to the employer.
“Add on benefits (you know, medical insurance and such) you pick the number, but lets say $8k”
Once, again another U.S. government instilled charge on an employer. Not an expense of the employee.
So far the past two are costs to cover your own ass as an employer.
“Sprinkle in a bit of the cost of employing him like safety gear and those type things.”
OSHA and a cover your ass expense of the employer. Seems like rightful expenses to employ somebody. Not the fault of the employee, but the cost of doing business in the USA.
Seriously, Curious, what the fuck?
I hire some folks, as I clearly said, that would be otherwise unemployable. Folks that are very slow mentally, for instance. Folks that are very socially inept, for instance. Folks that are very physically unatractive, for instance.
I do this as a public service. My hiring these folks gives them a chance of raising themselves out of poverty, long-term uneployment, etc. It gives them a purpose. It allows them to have some social interaction that they would not otherwise have. It gives them, in most if not all cases, the first reasonable paying job they ever had. It is something I do, and which I pay for, both financially and emotionally, because it is a god deed, and it is something I feel is right to do.
Again, what do you do? You obviously do not employ people.
Your point re college education makes no sense to me. College educations have no value with respect to my workers – who work in a manufacturing plant. No matter who they are or what they have done previously, I have to rtrain them up from scratch re the processes. Their previous experiences and education are of benefit to them, and me, from there.
Your point re a valuable worker being silenced is not a good reflection of the situation. I make the decisions on who I employ, not the workers. Fact is, each worker has the obligation to do the best they can. Those that are upset because one of these folks is not pulling his or her weight has a very limited view of the world – they have little compassion for their fellow man. I understand that. But because they have limited understand, and because I cannot reveal my reasons, they effectively get told to mind their own work, and I will supervise/manage my employees as I see fit. If they do not like that answer, they can fuck off.
I never feel guilt for firing a bad employee. Never. Have you ever fired anyone? Ever?
Again. I offer, when it is possible, some people good jobs that they would otherwise never be able to get, in their entire lives. I hope that I make a difference to them, and to their families, even if they do not see and understand that themselves. And fact is, most of them do not see it. But I do not do it for recognition of any kind. I do it because I believe it is the right thing to do.
same thing I told my buddy john, when you deny illegals the paperwork, you don’t harm them, you make them cheap employees for folks who don’t want to pay the taxes and insurance. old john shooting hisself in the foot. you think Hispanics love illegals? neither did cesar chavez. but American employers love illegals because they save a lot of money even while paying these guys the going rate.
Seriously, Curious, you are a fucing embicile. I simply layed out what it costs to employ someone. You asked, I told.
You say that the payroll taxes are not a ridiculous expense? You are a fucking moron.
You say that medical costs are not an expense of the employee? Are you brain dead? Seriously. It is a cost that the business bears to employ someone.
You mention OSHA as a cover your ass cost? It is law, you dolt. Plus it still is a cost of employing someone.
I mentioned the $60k as a cost of employing someone, and used it as the starting point to describe why I do not carry extra employees. If I were to carry more employees than I need to do the job, then it costs me $60k for each and every one of them that I would carry. So I do not do it. Ever.
I am stunned by the comments you are making. Been a long time since someone as ill-informed and lacking in understanding of what goes on in a business has posted on this site.
Z – yep, it suits me!
” Have you ever fired anyone? Ever? ”
Yes I have, and it increased employee moral and production. Employees are at the mercy of their bosses making competent decision about their business. The employer is responsible for the work environment and guaranteeing employees excelling based off of merit not sympathy.
“I hire some folks, as I clearly said, that would be otherwise unemployable. Folks that are very slow mentally, for instance. Folks that are very socially inept, for instance. Folks that are very physically unatractive, for instance.”
There is a high unemployment rate and you are concerned with being the “compassionate boss” or the “cool boss”. There is plenty of unemployed workers waiting for their chance to prove themselves. Yet, you rabble on about the employees that are clearly bringing your business down? So the unemployed to not even get the chance to earn their position in your business. Sound like a soft boss and a combination of nepotism.
“Those that are upset because one of these folks is not pulling his or her weight has a very limited view of the world – they have little compassion for their fellow man”
No, they are right. They should not have to pick up the slack for their fellow employees. They should have a boss that hires based off of merit, not because of warm fuzzy feelings.
Don’t know if there is bad blood between LLPOH and Curious, but a simple question, even simplistic, doesn’t require such vitriol!
“Seriously, Curious, you are a fucing embicile.”
You just don’t like that I disagree with you. BTW, you misspelled plenty of words. You should work on that in the future. May be why your employees are disgruntled. They have a boss that is not articulate enough and does not extort authority in the proper manner.
“Don’t know if there is bad blood between LLPOH and Curious, but a simple question, even simplistic, doesn’t require such vitriol!”
I don’t get it either. I just wanted to know what expenses he was basing his $60,000 per year figure to understand the plot better. As an employer, I would think he would understand the difference between universal federal mandates, and costs from individual mandates from the State. I know my state requires different expenses than another state. Then he just went ballistic. Seems like his employees have to deal with an unstable boss.
one of AWD’s posts sounded like the word could be obesecile or imbese
Curious – you really should be named Clueless. As I said, I have no desire for any credit for what I do. Those folks that I hire that are otherwise unhireable reflect a very small percentage of my total. They do not bring my company down or I would not do it.
Your comments about nepostism simply show your ignorance. It is a public service. Even in hard times, as you say it is, and it is, there is still room for some folks to do the right thing by the disadvantaged. That is what I try to do – I try to help the disadvantaged.
You say a person should not have to pick up the slack for there fellow man. Seriously? That is your world view? That the disadvantaged can go fuck themselves?
I have no obligation whatsoever to hire the best available employee, except out of duty to myself. It is my company, you see.
I do not believe in government charity. I believe in private charity. There are some folks, through no fault of their own, that need help. I do a little to help those folks, when I can. It is my business. I own it. I run it as I see fit. It is a very successful business.
Your comments about me being soft are laughable.
Crat – I would stay out of it if I were you. I was pretty civil, and answered his question. He is too dense to understand.
Again, this is a perfect illustration of my point re no good deed going unpunished. Some folks simply are unable to see.
Re mis-spelling words. I am not a good typist. I am extremely well-educated. Want to compare?
“You say that the payroll taxes are not a ridiculous expense? You are a fucking moron.
You say that medical costs are not an expense of the employee? Are you brain dead? Seriously. It is a cost that the business bears to employ someone.
You mention OSHA as a cover your ass cost? It is law, you dolt. Plus it still is a cost of employing someone.”
That is the cost of doing business, not the cost of the employee to work. Blame the U.S government not your employees. Then blame yourself for not employing based off of merit. Neither are the fault of your employees.
Oh, for God’s sake, there is plenty of research online proving that only 70% of an employee’s “cost” to an organization is actual wages. Take a worker’s wages and add another 30% to it and you get the overall cost of that employee to the company.
” As I said, I have no desire for any credit for what I do.”
Than why post a story titled “not good deed goes unpunished”. Seems like you are fishing for sympathy?
” It is a public service. Even in hard times, as you say it is, and it is, there is still room for some folks to do the right thing by the disadvantaged.”
Is that your colorful way for saying you get a tax break for hiring these people. How much of a tax break?
“I have no obligation whatsoever to hire the best available employee, except out of duty to myself. It is my company, you see. ”
How could your good employees not be disgruntled by the stubborn mindset of a “my way or the highway boss”. Many businesses have collapse through this very same arrogance.
“Re mis-spelling words. I am not a good typist. I am extremely well-educated. Want to compare?”
A good typist demonstrates carefulness. They are not impulsive. Seems like you are an impulsive boss, that make impulsive decisions, based off of the “if it feels good, do it” mindset.
” I believe in private charity.” Than donate to charity, and keep your employees out of it. You are forcing them to donate to charity out of their labor. It is forced redistribution of wealth. They have to do more work for your charitable do gooder mindset.
Curious – you really have no clue. Those costs – medical insurance, OSHA, payroll taxes are directly related to employees. Yes they are a cost of doing business. So are wages. But those costs largely disappear if there are no employees. They are only a cost if there are employees. Thus they are part of the cost of employing someone.
No where do I blame employees for those costs. I simply state those are the costs. And that I will not carry excess employees, because it costs me $60k to employ someone.
I also pointed out that the cost of employing the less qualified folks is around $3 or $4 per hour. It is a known cost. If I employ 3 of them, it is under 3% of my total employees, and it costs me personally around $20k per year to do it. I see it as a charitable contribution. It is a small fraction of the cost of my business, where my sales are the 8 figures. I put them on during upswings, sprinkling them in amongst new hires. They are the first to go during downswings. No one loses ther job because I hire them.
I do not see what is so hard to understand.
Curious still has not answered the question re what he does.
curious, far from it for me to defend llpoh. he can do it himself quite well. however, as i was reading your posts, the teacher in me couldn’t help but notice that your writing is rather clumsy, even a little sloppy, juvenile. you confuse in llpoh’s posts a typo or a missed letter in a word for being inarticulate. perhaps you should consult a dictionary on the meaning of the word “articulate”. moreover, have you re-read your own posts? i would be quite embarrassed if i were you. i am not even referring to the content of what you wrote. i beg your pardon if english isn’t your first language or if you didn’t finish high school. i’m going “to hit the rack now” (in our language, english, this means “to go to bed”) but if you’d like i can give you a full critique, at no cost, of your writing tomorrow. nothing would give me greater pleasure.
Thinker – thank you, you are of course correct. The 30% is a bit low, depending on medical insurance, and it does leave out admin costs, but it is in the ballpark generally.
Curious – I get no special deductions. There wages and costs are tax deductible, same as anyone else’s. As I said, I run a very successful business. I have been doing this for 35 years. What is it you do? Just so we know your area of expertise. You sound like a teacher or government drone.
“you confuse in llpoh’s posts a typo or a missed letter in a word for being inarticulate. perhaps you should consult a dictionary on the meaning of the word “articulate”. moreover, have you re-read your own posts? i would be quite embarrassed if i were you. i am not even referring to the content of what you wrote. i beg your pardon if english isn’t your first language or if you didn’t finish high school.”
Yes, I will take the advice and “expertise” of a union high school teacher. What is the American illiteracy rate amongst High School students these days? Yes, that is what I though.
Eureka! I suspect Curious is Calamity! She has come back to haunt me.
” You sound like a teacher or government drone.”
Neither. You are the author of this story and should provide the proper information to the reader. You got very defensive over employee expenses. I asked based off of state to state costs to employers. You freaked out and accused me of not knowing what I was talking about. I think you are not a very good writer and leave out key information to the reader. Then blame the reader for not having psychic powers to know what you meant all along.
LLPOH, now that I’ve had a chance to read your article, and being one of the people who discussed the “compassionate” CEOs / business leaders on another thread, I’d like to weigh in. Add to that the fact that I’m also part of a small, family business on the side of what I do to earn the majority of my income.
To begin, there are numerous studies that show that a company “doing good” (i.e., being a good corporate citizen — protecting the environment, treating employees fairly, giving back to the community, etc.) actually does result in the company performing better. Yes, it costs more to not destroy the environment. It costs more to donate to local organizations, build playgrounds, etc. It costs a LOT more to support job training programs that don’t directly benefit your company, or to employ the disabled or otherwise “unemployable.” All those things cause only headaches, extra work, incur extra expense and, on the surface, make you wonder if these “charitable” acts are worth it.
Fact is, though, that all those things result in a more loyal workforce, improved perception / opinion of the company within the community and often even lead to increased sales in consumer-facing companies. Companies with a reputation for “doing good” have what we call “social capital” that protects them during bad times.
As an example, think of McDonald’s during the LA Riots in 1992, after Rodney King’s beating… all the other chain stores in those neighborhoods was looted, burned, etc. But not a single McDonald’s was touched (even Snopes confirms this). Why? Because McDonald’s had a history of hiring people within those neighborhoods, despite them not being “ideal” workers. They also sponsored school activities and gave out scholarships to workers and their families. That kind of social capital helped to protect them.
In our business, we employ people from the local community. Some are as close to “worthless” as I’m sure some of your employees are. But we continue to employ them. Yes, others have to step up and work harder. But it becomes very clear to those who do that they benefit from it; we give them “extra” work on the weekends so they can earn more money, we give them extra perks. Since we’re a farm, we don’t pay overtime and it’s all seasonal work, but we still take good care of our people and that pays dividends within the local community.
So, I wouldn’t say, “no good deed goes unpunished.” It may be more work to do the right thing, and you may not get any direct recognition for all you do, but rest assured that it gets noticed and buys you a certain amount of “social capital” that wouldn’t be there without it.
I have a very recent experience with this. I own a business; it is a much smaller engineering/contracting firm with sales in the low 7 figures.
I had an administrator who is tremendously unfortunate in many ways. Most specifically she has a daughter that after seemingly everyday infection began to exhibit a bizarre spectrum of issues. As time progressed her illness progressed to the point that she was spending a day or two every week in the ER after she would collapse at school. Eventually the collapsing required resuscitation. As a father of a daughter I don’t know how she functioned in a day to day sense. If my daughter had to be brought back from the brink multiple times with defibrillator I would be a basket case. All of this I verified personally as I visited her and her daughter in the ER multiple times and was present when the Dr went over chart, history, etc.
Even though I have a tiny company, and she represented a significant portion of my employment (33% of our administrative staff) I decided to hang with her as long as I could. I didn’t say a word when she was absent, late, or left early over 40% of her scheduled days. I allowed her to work late, work on weekend days, and eventually work from home to help. This process stretched out over about 8 months. As the last couple months went by, her work was becoming more and more erratic and essential items were getting forgotten. I finally felt like I had to make a change as it had gotten to the point where my operation was faltering.
Ironically after I made the decision I became aware of a tracking feature in our administrative software. One of the other administrators figured out that you can pull a report on activity down to every click or entry by any user. Apparently there had been days where she was “home working” where she never even logged into the software. She was just reporting hours she did not work.
Fast forward to our last conversation. Her stance was that I put the employees last. That I was only in it for myself. That I had no compassion. I only wished her well. I pray for her and her child. I never mentioned that I knew she hadn’t been working. I just said “thank you” for her work, and hoped she would see better times.
This is just one example; however, I have several. As time goes by I become more and more hardened to the decision that if someone is not working at an essential level they are not working any longer. I don’t have deep LLPOH pockets. I work 80 hours per week, and, in large part to keeping non-performing people around, I am essentially breaking even. It isn’t fun explaining to my wife and kids why I’m gone so much when I don’t have much to show for the work I do. In fact, I’m writing this after putting my kids to bed, and heading back into the office to try and get some design work finished.
Compassion is an essential part of a relationship business. I have other people on staff that create grief for me from time to time. I have a National Guardsman, I have divorcees with custody issues, etc. They are still around because they have a high level of what I consider to be the most important ability of all: give a shit.
I believe LLPOH has captured the essential point. You do good things for people because you want to do them and/or you feel like you should do them. You don’t do them to get them to like you or thank you. They never will likely do either. While I don’t always agree with LLPOH’s comments, in this case I think he is both spot on and generous for sharing his wisdom. One of the key issues with running a business from scratch is that there is no instruction manual. I value that shared wisdom because it is incredibly hard to come by. If you think your college degrees are expensive (and I have two so far) then try paying for that education “on the job” as an owner. Tuition never looked so cheap.
Cordially,
Sonic
Thinker – excellent, and accurate, comments. We should have written this together – it would have been much more complete.
I did not mention that the employees I am referring to are the lowest paid of my employees, and that not all of my employees lack understanding – just some. Many of my employees would indeed understand what was being done and why. And many of them have had family/friends/acquantainces that have benefitted from the practice – their slow nephew, or cousin, or whatever has been helped.
Yes, I there are benefits that flow back. I try to be fair to my employees, and that builds up some credit in the long run, by and large. I make no apologies for my decisions to hire whom I choose for any reason I choose – it is my perogative as the owner. Many of my employees all know I will help them and theirs same as I do others, should the occasion arise. There are always some that cannot see to the horizon.
Thanks Sonic. Truly. All the best for your business.
It is not easy, and it is generally thankless. To balance personal beliefs, compassion, etc. against the needs of the business is very difficult indeed. As the owner, you see and understand far more than the employees – and sacrifices you make will rarely be noticed or appreciated.
It is gruesomely disappointing to have a worker take advantage of your goodwill and charitable nature, as happened to you. But you can take pride in what you did. In the end, you do do it as you believe it is the right thing. And you did the right thing.
Llpoh is right. I employ about 8 to 11 people depending on the season/year….most who haven’t had to “make a payroll” don’t/won’t get it. I agree whole heartedly that as the years go by, the bullshit meter is too close to the redline……I’ve got 25 years in big boy chair. Gestures of goodwill are taken to be permanent entitlements. Failure is always an orphan claimed by no one.
@Curious, get to work you tool…show us how it’s done. It’s easy sport, go ahead…wow us.
P.S. Never post with an iPad because it is a pain in the arse.
I completely echo what LLPOH has said, except that I have become harder over the years, not softer.
My 2 cents:
1) I try very hard not to hire substandard people no matter what the sob story. They are unemployable for a reason, usually something that I cannot fix as an small business employer like substance abuse, no work ethic, a sense of entitlement or they are completely nutso. These problems fall under the sphere of the employee’s RESPONSIBLITY and if they can’t take care of it before they hit my door, they are unlikely to do so once they pass through it.
2) When an employee is doing substandard work, I immediately have a sit-down with them, to review their job functions and performance. If the problem is on my end (lack of training, poor direction, process/infrastructure issue), I recruit the employee to help me resolve it. If the problem is on their end (poor work ethic or skill set, psychosocial issues), they get a formal counseling session and a quick review of the company policy on # of write ups before dismissal. This fixes about 85% of the problems.
3) If an employee persists in their substandard work, after the proper HR review, I fire them, on the spot, no 2 weeks and they are escorted out the door, with their final paycheck in their hand. My experience has been that the problem employees “poison the well” for the rest as LLPOH has described above. Since the problem employee has usually made everybody’s life miserable by this point, the only one crying is the one fired.
4) I treat all the employees THE SAME, period. Once you let Suzy come in 30 minutes late repeatedly so she can walk her kids to school, then Tammy, who gets up at O-dark-thirty to get her kids to school and be on time, gets pretty pissed off and you start getting tons of resentment built up between the employees and the work atmosphere rapidly deteriorates. NO FAVORITES.
5) As a Boss, I am NOT their friend, confessor, priest, confidant, bank, whatever. I am paying them good money for a specific job to be done in a certain time frame in a particular way. I treat my employees well, I do not yell or scream, I am polite and say thank you a lot, buy them lunch if the drug reps cancel out, try to get them out the door at 5 pm, etc.
6) “Compassion” and “charity” are code words used by liberals to guilt employers into hiring substandard employees, sorry. They belong in a Church, not in the work place. As LLPOH has shown, it just leads to disaster and makes Management look weak.
****cue screams of “Hard Assed Bitch”****
Agreed with nearly everything Hope@ZeroKelvin said.
“Compassion” and “charity” are code words used by liberals to guilt employers into hiring substandard employees, sorry. They belong in a Church, not in the work place.
I very much agree with this and the resentment of good employees.
Hope – not at all. Good businesswoman sounds to me. I hire a few folks, at times, that are unemployable through no fault of their own. Not because they are lazy, etc. They must follow all rules, and the only difference between them and other employees is I do make some allowance for their efficiency if they are slow mentally.
I do not hire them because of guilt. There are some poor unfortunates out there, and if not me, then who will help them? Without a reasonable job, they will truly be charity cases. I subsidize them, a bit. But not entirely. I probably get eighty percent efficiency relative to other employees from them.
I am able to do this because of the size of the business. Small businesses struggle to be so able to do, as even one semi-productive person can have dire impacts. Sonic’s story is proof of this.
Hope – I can find no fault whatsoever in what you said. You are meeting your responsibilities.
Yeah, have to agree with Sonic and Hope, as well as Llpoh. You can’t allow it to get to the point where it poisons the rest of your workforce, and the size of the company — even the industry — makes a big difference. Hope can’t have substandard employees in her medical practice, but my farm or Llpoh’s factory can put up with someone on the line who would never make it in that kind of professional environment. Drugs and alcohol aside, of course… those are immediate firing offenses, mainly because of the liability they represent.
Curious says:
“Than donate to charity, and keep your employees out of it. You are forcing them to donate to charity out of their labor. It is forced redistribution of wealth. They have to do more work for your charitable do gooder mindset.”
The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’
Coyote – yep, that is about it. Great catch. I had forgotten that one.
HZK, you are anything but a hard assed bitch. You are a kind and no doubt generous person who must live with the burden of having been born with a lot more intelligence, drive and talent than most.
Curious (AKA Calamity)
Yet, you rabble on about (rattle, prattle?)
Sound like a soft boss and a combination of nepotism. (erectile dysfunction, nepotism?)
based off of merit, (on merit?)
does not extort authority (exert, enforce, exude?)
A good typist demonstrates carefulness (but can Llpoh type?)
Yes, that is what I though. (a thought that is as soft as cookie dough)
Coyote hoists Curious by his/her own petard.
Late to the party …. just a couple thoughts.
1) Curious — I thought your first question was a reasonable one. Not everyone knows what it truly costs an employer to employ a worker. Or, maybe you were just curious as to how llpoh specifically calculates his cost … vs. making assumptions. You had a reason for asking it, and you did so cordially.
2) llpoh — Your responses “what the fuck do you do for a living” and “numskull” were way over the top.
3) Curious — your became fixated with llpoh’s spelling, grammar, common sense, etc. Maybe you think this makes you look smart. Trust me, it doesn’t.
4) llpoh — this is not the first time you have written about the costs of running your business. You do it well. But, it’s depressing as shit.
5) llpoh — consider writing about your Profits ($$$). Not specific, of course. Just general stuff … about all the mega-moohlah you’re raking in. Maybe to give some aspiring entrepreneur some hope.
4) I used to think employers “owed” me. I even quit jobs for no other reason than “the boss is a prick”. This occurred when I was a young person.
5) Then I aged. Got me some wisdom. (How do like that there grammar?). I eventually became a believer in these five “rules”.
—— 1) I will always try to get as much money as possible.
—— 2) My employer will always try to get me (and keep me) for as little as possible.
—— 3) The only thing my employer “owes” me is the agreed upon paycheck. Nothing more.
—— 4) The only thing I “owe” my employer is full undivided effort for the time agreed upon.
—— 5) If you really want to be paid “what your worth”, go into Commission Sales. You can make a shitload of money. You can also starve. But you’ll truly earn what your worth, and it’s really exciting to discover where you belong.
Goddammit. I fucked up my numbering. Goddammit!! If SSS see this I am up shit’s creek.
Admin … can you fix it????
Stucky, I am convinced. I will quit my salaried process engineering job and sell insurance door to door, then I will learn what I am truly worth.
Stuck – good post. I think you are giving numbskull, er, Curious to much credit re his opening question. I believe his subsequent comments support my original interpretation of his question. His question was more “what the fuck do you mean $60k that is not correct” than please explain how you get that number. Even after I ‘splained it, he argued I did not know what I was talking about, and that he is right. Like fuck.
So, I stand my reading of his comment. He was calling me stoopid. He made himself more of a dolt with each post.
I, rightfully, assume the TBP readership are smart folks. Unfortunately, Curious wandered into an adult conversation, and stepped in it.
But, again, nice post. I will consider your suggestions.
Some very mature and wise stuff in your five, six, eleventy points (who knows with your numbering system!).
Zara
Are you being snarky? First you hit on me, now you’re going all lesbo with HZK. Make up your damn mind.
You are not a people person. You said so yourself. Keep your engineering job. You would starve in sales.
I have personally known several people who made over a million bucks a year in sales; insurance (1), computers (2), mortgage brokers (5).
Whatever you earn as an engineer, I GUARANTEE you aren’t being paid what you are worth. You must produce more than your wages — otherwise your employer would get rid of you. No?
Not so in commissioned sales. If all you can muster up is $10,000/yr …. then that’s EXACTLY what you’re “worth” to yourself and to the company …… $10,000.
llpoh
Thanks.
Upon reading your explanation, well, you bring up good points. Maybe his /her first question was a passive/aggressive thing? I think so.
Some people think it’s Clammy. (Admin could tell us.) It does RESEMBLE her attitude, but I think not. The grammar and spelling are too correct.
The Curious Case of Calamity. A TBP Mystery.
Stucky, Believe it or not, but I was once in sales and did very well. Of course I was selling engineered systems designed by, uh, me so I believed in my product. Having said that, you are right. I am not a people person. Most people can kiss my ass. Fuck people.
Z – hahahaha! Very funny. Not news to us, but damn funny anyway.