On a recent thread, there were several comments regarding company CEO’s that are compassionate toward their employees – by retaining more employees than the business requires, or retaining poor or inefficient employees, etc. Let me tell you for sure and certain, no good deed goes unpunished is the likely outcome of any compassionate act.
First, let me address the issue of keeping more employees than the business requires. I simply do not do this. I will not do this. And I believe no business should do this. It is prohibitively expensive. It costs me around $60,000 per year per employee. For every one I keep beyond requirements, it will cost me that amount PLUS it will cost me possibly that and more as a result of the overall slowdown that will occur throughout the organization. You see, people like to work a bit of overtime. Excess people means no overtime. No overtime means people’s wages are affected. People respond by slowing down sufficiently that they believe overtime will be provided to catch up. So if I keep excess employees, in a show of compassion, I will get screwed. NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED will absolutely apply.
However, I do try to retain/hire/employ people that are very often otherwise unemployable, especially in jobs such as I offer that do provide middle-class income and benefits. I try to fit them in and work around their limitations. In general, it costs me perhaps three or four dollars per hour per each of these folks. To put that in perspective, it costs me – and by me I mean me personally, out of my own wallet – between $6000 and $8000 per year per each employee of this type that I have. As you can imagine, I do not let the number of these employees get too high. Perhaps three or four are on the books, at the most, depending on economic circumstances. It is charity on my part, pure and simple, and I do it as a public service, as a means of giving to the community, and as I think it is the right thing to do. But here are some of the results of trying to do a good deed:
1) I get my other employees stomping into my office complaining that so and so does not pull their weight. Which is true. I cannot tell them the reason why those folks are employed, or immediately upon leaving my office the aggrieved would go to so and so and tell him/her “You are only employed because the boss thinks you are a charity case and you need help” or some such. That would be great. So I basically have to tell the aggrieved to mind their own business, to pay attention to their own work, etc. And thus I get a disgruntled employee because I try to do a charitable thing. And disgruntled employees cost me money. Add some more to the $6k or $8k I am already funding.
2) These marginal employees make inordinate amounts of mistakes – quality, tool damage, etc. Add a bit more to the cost of employing them.
These marginal employees tend to get worse the longer they are employed. Some of them are as cunning as junkyard rats. They innately know that they are poor performers, and yet they continue to be employed. So they become even worse performers in order to see how far they can push it. Not very far is the answer, but it costs me time, and money, to show them the error of their ways, and usually, the door.
3) On the other end of the scale, some of them come to think they are actually God’s gift to an employer. After all, they have a job, so they must be ok, right? We recently had a softening in sales, and I had to reduce workforce. In these situations I will not continue to employ these marginal employees – no way in hell will I employ a marginal while having to lay off a good employee. That is totally unfair to the good employee. So what happens when I lay off one of these marginal? They jump up and down, scream that I am treating them unfairly as they are good employees and that surely I have something against them, tell me I am obliged to keep them on as they will not be able to find other work, threaten to sue, etc. Contrast that to when I have to lay off a good employee: they almost always understand (they are lots brighter and understand economic circumstance), they are thankful for the opportunity they have and the promise make to call them back as soon as conditions improve, and they are gracious in the face of adversity.
Again, it goes to show NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED!
As I get older, it gets harder and harder to do the things that I believe in. I believe in these small acts of charity. I get no accolades or rewards for them – I do not care for those in any event. But I am sick and tired of being punished for doing what surely are good deeds. For my actions, not only do I pay a significant financial cost, but I pay an enormous personal cost. Each day I am less prepared to pay the price. At this point, I have advised managers that we will no longer employ substandard employees. Of course, I tend to relent when I see a sad case. But I believe it is far less likely that I will do so now. I am simply not as psychologically strong today as I was 10 years ago. The bastards have worn me down – the steady drip, drip, drip of water on the rock has had an effect over 35 years in manufacturing.
So, I say to those who believe that employers have an obligation to be compassionate and charitable, that there is much you do not understand unless you have been in the chair yourself, and have put up your own money, and have to deal with the problems that come along with trying to do the right thing. It is easy to tell business owners what they should do, but people need to realize that there are (almost) ALWAYS consequences for doing the right thing.
Make no mistake – NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED. It may not always be true. But it is substantially true, especially when dealing with employees.
llpoh-Thanks for a thoughtful piece, and follow up commentary. Kudos, amigo.
Thinker & Sonic-likewise the logical commentary.
Hope-your phrase “poison the well” is apt. Being in the (unionized) gov’t drone business, been there, done that. I literally had to let one aspect of my operation die, figuratively burn to the ground, in order to start fresh. Largely due to union/HR policy. Fortunately, the cancer was purged and we are rebuilding. But the amount of extra time, effort and stress was ridiculous.
Curious-I agree with quite a bit of your logic, but some of your comments are so fucking retarded I cannot resolve the dichotomy. Surely you understand that the fact that load is a gov’t mandate does not relieve it from being a cost of employment. Right?
Wow all this “compassionate conservatism” brings a tear to my eye. I guess I don’t have a beef with small business types, but all of you hire employees for one reason, to make money.
If you can’t make “X” of an employee you won’t hire them. Period.
I take all your bullshit of “compassion” as doublespeak for not wanting to get sued. You can tell from all the “circle jerking” going on here, you are all a bunch of Neocons slapping each other on the butt.
Yea no doubt that will solve all the problems our country faces.
I suppose a kinder and gentler time for you guys would be get in the “old way back machine” to 1910. This way you could hire a bunch of 10 year olds, pay them shit wages in sweat shops and if a few die, well that’s not a problem. Hire some more.
I suggest you all brush up on your Chinese and look to relocate.
Just fire everybody already. Your moaning and groaning about your pathetic employees is getting very old.
RE
Doubletime must be DP’s stupid brother. Doubletime, I will attend to you later.
Llpoh, I give you a lot of credit being so patient with curious, but sometimes attempting to enlighten the brain dead is about as productive as beating the proverbial dead horse.
But, got to tell you, it was entertaining to say the least.
Curious had some very curious beliefs/thoughts on what is the cost of doing business and the cost of a government mandate. Which apparently if a cost is a government mandate, there is no cost? Damn.
It’s important to discover the level of, or the lack of intelligence out there, which is why I listen to progressive radio so much, then have to read TBP to stop my head from spinning.
I never thought Curious was Calamity but Stucky yanking some chain, but now I think Doubletime is Calamity.
RE – same goes for your doomsday projections. You have but one bowstring. Maybe one day you will get a bow. Trust fund baby born with silver spoon up his ass smarts off again.
Doubletime,
You are an ignorant buffoon and you know nothing about competitive survival. The bottom line of any business is profit, always has been and always will be. Go start a small business with a minimum investment of $150,000 and then make it work (show a profit) for at least five years. Write a check EVERY month from your own commercial checking account that pays your bills and feeds your family without any help or assistance from anyone.
THEN, come back and share your wisdom with Llpoh (and others at this chat board) who has already done it for decades.
Like I said a big Neocon circle jerk. You all just keep telling yourself how wonderful it is to all agree with each other. How lucky the workers of the world are to work for you, as you cut them a check out of the kindness of your heart. Damn, I think I hear sainthood calling for some on this board.
If it is such a pain to run a business then do something else. If people on welfare have it so good. Join them. Please spare me the high moral ground many of you take as you curse out people who don’t share your views.
I’m sorry, all the tough love is getting to me. Hard to see the screen from the tears of joy I am crying that the world is blessed with such hard working entrepreneurs such as yourselves. Employing the huddled masses out of the kindness of your heart.
Bullshit, you all do it for money just like anything else. Its the machine that is robbing you and everyone else. You just have trouble focusing your anger on the correct target. Better to bitch and moan about an employee. At least you can fire them if your feeling a little crampy any given day.
You can’t do shit about the people REALLY robbing you blind and that’s the big problem.
So off I go to a work, doing my part to feed the beast. I bitch and moan, but yet I still comply. You all still comply. WE ALL STILL COMPLY. As long as that is the case. Nothing changes, it only gets worse.
Alexander Haig: “they can protest all they want so long as they pay their taxes”
Now go out there and try to have a nice day!
Stucky says:
“Goddammit. I fucked up my numbering.”
what about 8 core principles, that’s numbered correctly
Yup, doubletime is a woman. Men are from mars, women are from….
Yes, of course people in business “do it for the money” What the fuck? You think we wake up in the morning and think, “Goddamn, I can’t wait to call up Joe and “give” him a job, I’ll just pull some money out of my ass to pay him a living wage.”
Besides the government, an employee is the largest liability for any business. People today just don’t seem to understand that any employee must produce more for the business than the business pays that employee. That includes the business owner, so if the owner identifies a sub standard employee that will not produce, you have only two choice’s, help the employee to produce more, if that fails, terminate employment. That is how a business owner produces profit, without profit the business will fail. We aint the fucking government and able to operate at a loss forever.
Yes, yes, yes, we know we are feeding the machine, and we love it, right? Fuck yes! I love working 12 hour days, I love paying 40%+ of my wealth to government because whiny ass know nothing entitlement hungry fucknuts demanded know nothing fucknut politicians to take what I created in the name of fairness.
It wasn’t always this way, maybe I hang on hoping it will change.
I know, “Fuck off, it’s not that way today, now go die.”
@LLPOH – The bagger boys aren’t at the break even point, as all are under $13.00/hr. We currently have zero issues with their work speed, so in this particular instance, our CEO gets to be a good person and do whats best for the company.
There are technological bottlenecks in other spots that are holding things up, but since our sales aren’t exceeding our abilities (not even close, not with a new foreman in place) we don’t need the new equipment right now. We are opening up a new facility this summer, it will have an automatic bagger. Thus begins the transition. Luckily for them a new building means more employees, and sometimes you need a ditchdigger for a position. So, new tech will eliminate their position, but expansion will mean they still have a job.
All of that being said, we do have a few people that hold the company as a whole back. I think as long as the current CEO is in place we are going to be stuck with these people. For the most part, the rest of us work around them. Guys like myself have a job title, but then are responsible for 50-75% of someone else’s job. It sucks, but our CEO has one foot out the door, and I think after this next major transition is over he will step aside and let the obvious successor take over.
My wife and I are still top 5%-ers in this rinky-dink town, so I can’t complain too much.
I have no sympathy for this man. He blames his employees for the wages he has to pay them. You cannot blame the employee for doing work and accepting a wage.Then blames them for the government taking $18,000 in expenses. Once again, not the fault of the employee. He needs to stop blaming other people and start pointing the finger at the U.S. Government. He wants to belly ache about being a business owner, but doesn’t want to deal with the truth, the government is stealing from him.
Also, for the rest of TBP a curious fact:
“OSHA covers approximately 7 million workplaces. According to a report by AFL–CIO, it would take OSHA 129 years to inspect all workplaces under its jurisdiction.”
@Curious – Every place I’ve worked at has said “if OSHA new about this…” and then gone on to show me a non-bubble wrap way of doing things.
We still take safety precautions, its just not as extreme as OSHA would like to see
I just know its getting bad out here in the real world, and it just seems like America works really, really well on the way up, not so good on the way down. They’ll have all of us at each others throats before its over. Just remember to shake hands after a bitchfest and keep your eye on the prize, divided we fall.
TPC- OSHA is a bloated government entity. The workers would be better off with smaller overseers of safety. Currently OSHA is an excuse for the government to spy on employers and employees.
@Curious: I am curious, do you really think us Bosses WANT to complain about our employees? Do you really think we start business just to create jobs? Do you really think that employees who have not put of the human and financial capital to start and maintain a business should be paid as much as the Bosses who have?
If you answer yes to any of that you ar
I certainly share your feelings about the US govt. I have come to loathe and fear them to a depth unplummable by any line. About to hang my Timothy McVeigh for President on the wall any minute now/sarc.
We small business employers are not big enough to get “our fair share” of fed.gov pork like the Jamie Dimons of the world. We are stuck trying to make a living within the system we have, knowing full well that our tax money, our hard work and our best natures are being used against us.
If you have a realistic solution to this problem, put words to it.
Remember: God loves you and may harmony find you!
Curious, where did Llpoh blame the employee for the costs associated with the cost of employment?
The way I read it, he is only stating what it costs a business owner to employ a person for a year. I can’t find where he blames the person.
Oh my goodness, I sneezed and posted prematurely!!! That is too funny.
I was going to say that if Curious answered yes to any of those questions, that puts them firmly in the commie camp, sorry. We can call it liberal progressive now, but the ideology is the same. I have become convinced of this after several mornings of listening to Progressive radio on Sirius radio (gotta get my cup o’ crazy going early in the day, lol).
Hope- I largely agree with your statements above. Why I snapped back at llpoh is because of where he is putting his blame. Obviously he can pen an article and put it on the internet. I think it is a wasted platform if he is not writing about why employing people costs the employer. Assuming all the readers knows his business is showing poor understanding of the audience.
He played the blame game, but blamed the wrong people. He blamed the producers of his own production. Not those skimming the cream off the top while they sit in Washington. He has a platform on this site to truly rip the government a new one because of the burdens they place on him. I would think a call to action article, would fire things up better, than a complain but comply attitude.
Hope, I’m a big fan of Progressive radio on sirius as well. Love Big Head Ed for the laughs he provides, Stephanie Miller is a freaking waste of time, Michelangelo Signorile is a waste of human flesh, and Mark Thompson believes the Constitution was written to grant the federal government power over the people. The entire program is a walking contradiction.
@Curious – Who do you think votes in the redistributionists? Its certainly not the fiscal conservatives.
LLPOH has a history of being vocally critical of our government, he’s just equally critical of the voters that put them in office time and again.
Curious, you’ve never heard of a balance sheet, have you? If so, you would understand the “cost” Llpoh wrote about. He wasn’t “blaming” anyone; it’s your own ignorance that is drawing that conclusion.
Doubletime, before you accuse anyone of pulling “a circlejerk, employing people just out of the kindness of our hearts,” you might want to consider that some of us do it because we love what we do and can’t conceive of doing anything else. Even if there isn’t all that much money in it for us.
Money isn’t everything. Perhaps one day you’ll be wise enough to understand that. Most of the time, we make just enough to live a simple-yet-comfortable life (no fancy cars, no vacations, but good, homegrown food on the table and a solid roof over our heads). And that’s just fine, because what gets us out of bed every morning is the ability to work for ourselves. My family has been growing food for at least seven generations, and we continue to do it because we love it. No one has gotten rich off it, but we sure have provided jobs and food to a lot of people throughout the years.
“LLPOH has a history of being vocally critical of our government, he’s just equally critical of the voters that put them in office time and again.”
Like I said, assumption of the audience. I don’t know about his past critical statements about the government. I just know that in this article he wasn’t being critical.
@Curious: I think the LLPOH understands exactly where to place the blame – the fed.gov. He, like me, doesn’t have the power to deal with our REAL problems, we have to focus on what is in front of us. Since the fed.gov makes what is in front of us sooooo difficult to deal with, we are unable to effectively deal with our REAL problem, the fed.gov.
Quite a plan, eh? The feds creat total chaos on the ground with their insane policies that totally fuck up the very people we need to have as hardworking employees – while at the same time picking our pockets and lining theirs!!!
As they say in “Catching Fire” – remember who the real enemy is.
Oh, and if you complain too loudly, you find the IRS in your bank account (tea party) or tanks/guns burning down your compound (Waco).
Timothy McVeigh for President indeed/no sarc.
@card802: I know, I know, listening to them is like a trip to Alice in Wonderland. Did you read where they all lost some major markets because no one was listening to them? Then they all complained that they had been sidelined to “radio ghetto” by the big corporations. Sometimes I am laughing so hard at their idiocy that my mascara runs all down my face and I have to pull off the road lest I have an accident. Truly, mental illness, especially in other people, is a hazard to your health, mental and physical!!!
Doubletime/Calamity is annoying, but her attitude will bring its own reward. I’m no neocon. I’m a paleocon. Get it straight.
Capitalism without any morals will lead to that systems decline .
I am stunned, truly, at all the thumbs up for Doublespeak.
He starts off the first sentence in his first thread thusly — “all this ‘COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATISM’ brings a tear to my eye”. Of all the things he could have disagreed with, he starts off mocking conservatism.
First, who the hell said we’re conservatives? Second, what do you think that says about Doublespeak? I’ll tell you. It’s extremely likely is a fucking libtard.
Secondly, he calls everyone here a “neocon”. Not once, but twice.
This libtard idiot then make an unfounded, pull-it-out-of-my-ass, illogical conclusion — further proof he’s a libtard, or just retarded – with this intellectually stunning comment —— “take all your bullshit of ‘compassion’ as doublespeak for not wanting to get sued.”
Oh, yeah …. That’s simply fucking brilliant. Llpoh has a HANDFUL (that’s 5 or less, if you’re a libtard) of employees who he keeps on board but, probably shouldn’t ,and Mr. Dim Lightbulb thinks it will keep llpoh from being sued? Hahaha There ya go llpoh!!! You can break as many laws you want cuz you got a ‘Get Out Of Jail Free” card with your less-able employees. Hey, llpoh, hire Doublespeak! You’ll escape government hassles for the next 20 years.
And just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water, Doubledick flies over the landscape and drops another fake Shitbomb by accusing all of us neocons of wanting to hire 10 year old kids … and letting them die in the process.
And 5 of you voted thumbs up just on that stinky air-headed pile of bullshit. What are you thinking?
I have reread Doublespeak’s posts twice. He offers ZERO insight. ALL he does is mock. You can almost feel his hatred for ANY employer as his gnarled bony fingers type, “Bullshit, you all do it for money”. That’s why I come to TBP … to get that level of profundity found nowhere else.
He doesn’t say “we”, he says “you”. You see, Doublespeak has evolved into the next level of Human Evolution. He, and he alone, is the Compassionate One. He does not work – assuming he’s employed, which I doubt — for money. He works solely for harmony, peace, love, joy, and hope —- hope that all we fucking neocons would just die jerking each other off.
And some of you cheer for this??
Ok, I started reading this site and I have to wonder “Is this a real economics website?”. I see plenty of good content on the front page, which is why I originally commented. Then when you get to the actual comments section, it seems like one of those lame 1990s forum boards. With crazy self appointed moderators I might add. Is this a real source of news and economics?
Seems like a lot of the comments are from people who either know each other in real life, or place way to much importance on their opinions. Then those self important opinions, are back up by their self righteous friends, patting them on the back.
Lotsa numbskulls out today. Yahoo boards must be down.
@Iska – I agree, Doubletime appears to be Calamity.
“Alexander Haig: “they can protest all they want so long as they pay their taxes”
Now go out there and try to have a nice day!”
The major sticking point between her and LLPOH was that she cheats on her taxes regularly.
Curious, this is partly a economics blog. You sought it out apparently because you do not understand economics and wanted to learn more.
To learn you must listen to those who are willing to teach. This is not high school, this is not college, this is a hard knocks blog, and sometimes the shit starts to fly, you sling it, it will be slung back. Deal with it, be prepared for school or go the fuck someplace else, there is not much pampering.
But, if you shut up long enough you may learn something from this blog and the comments. Most of these people here have been here so long they do know each other, without ever meeting each other. You did ask a innocent question and got hammered with some shit, you threw shit back against a master shit thrower which was pretty damn funny, but you were basically armed with nothing but your opinion and that don’t mean shit.
“Most of these people here have been here so long they do know each other, without ever meeting each other.”
So a bunch of sycophants patting each other on the backs. Seems I got it right the first time and completely discredits the comments. Thanks for the input.
A great fear of stranger danger on this site.
Curious
I think that honesty is always the best policy. What do you think?
Admin,
I think the anticipation of controversy drives this site. Or a least that is what I have been led to believe since embarking on this encampment of established norms.
Sycophants?
You are a idiot.
Curious, people are very knowledgeable & friendly here. Showing your ignorance is fine, flaunting it, not so much. The folks here don’t tolerate pussies & crybabies here too well. If you wish to stay, you need to grow a pair.
Trolled you old fuckers! Look forward to more of this shit, you dont even know.
Fuck all ofyou
Nicely done, Calamity.
You all got doppled by Calamity? Oh, that is hilarious. She’s “curious?” nice one, but is she “bi-curious?” Well played nonetheless.
Fuck you too AWD, we all know you are a fucking chubby chaser.
Aw, fail. Thats what I get for having two windows open. That could have been fun.
“Trolled you old fuckers!” ——– Curious Cunt
IF that’s really you ….. you fooled no one. You were called out very early in the thread.
Have you posted any more retarded youtube vids yet?
We knew it was you the whole time. And we know the other one is you, too.
And I knew she would be back. This place is addictive.
The vast majority of folks here get it, or pretty much so.
I am surprised that I am being accused of complaining. Stating the facts is not complaining. Or so I think. This thread started from a comment Admin made about there being compassionate, moral employees. I simply wanted to point out that taking a moral, do what you think is right stance very often has a cost. Many CEOs do the right thing. Then they are criticised for being compassionate. Go figure.
It is really a commentary about the human condition. Some folks care more about how they are doing compared with others, than doing the job. Coyote’s Bible quote shows this to have been going on forever. That attitude is immature, so it gets little time from me. Others are deluded that they are doing a good job. Others take a show of compassion for weakness, and try to take advantage of the situation. Others are incapable of gratitude for much of anything.
In the end, I never expect anything good to come of a good deed. Often, quite the contrary. I do what I think is right, and deal with the fallout, if it comes. I am only trying to please myself.
The stuff by Curious – be it by Clammy or another – is really too stupid to comment upon further. You fine folks have tried to set Curious on the path to enlightenment, but there is not educating some folks.
Some truly great commentary on here! Many thanks.
Bily – I think you will need a bobbin sander if our guess on the identity of Curious and doubletime is correct.
Billy says:
I hate Grammar Spelling Nazis…
When all else fails and you have no other recourse, go after their spelling and grammar…
Fuckers. I’d like to take a belt sander to their crotch.
Billy, go back and read some of Clammy’s early posts and comments here. You’d have become a grammar nazi too. Fucking shit was tedious and unreadable even when she had something intelligent to say. The really fucked up part was that she claimed she wanted to be a writer/blogger but had no skills to do so. She finally got some help in that area and improved dramatically.
I and most others knew she was not going away. Now she is apparently going to hang around in the margins and be an annoying little bitch/troll. She claims to respect admin but she is now just going to shit all over his site because she can. Perhaps we should all return the favor by shitting all over her site and youtube channel? You think she might appreciate that?
I_S
IS – please post pic of a bitchtroll. I would really love to see that.
Here is the thing about wordpress – there are no mulligans or do-overs. I have never been able to get my spell checker working. And when one finger typing my brain gets in front of my finger, and then lord knows what comes out. I probably make half the spelling and grammar mistakes herabouts. So I give folks the benefit of the doubt. But Calamity, as IS said, is a different kettle of fish. She is not capable of coherent thought, and has not received an education sufficient to allow her to express ideas, complex or otherwise. And she has convinced herself she is capable of delivering economics lessons. I can spell deluded.
Llpoh,
Excellent article. I admire your compassion to help when possible. Some people really do need a hand up, and no we are not all created equal. I respect that you understand you cannot afford to “compassion ” yourself out of business. How compassionate would that be to you other 100 workers, most of which willingly work hard for the paycheck that you give them. Some people do not get it that providing the opportunity to help 100 families provide a decent life for their families is truly an act of compassion in itself.
Thank you,
Bob.
Sorry llpoh, that was bitch “/” troll. No images……..more a state of mind.
I_S