What should be done with the estimated 15 million people living in the United States without the legal right to be here? It seems most politicians and many Americans come down on one or the other extreme. Many Republicans, including Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump, have the idea that they can round up 15 million people and ship them back to wherever they came from. Many Democrats, on the other hand, would grant them blanket amnesty, give them citizenship, and make sure as many as possible are fully signed up to the welfare ranks.
Has anyone thought for a moment about how difficult, expensive, disruptive, and dangerous to our civil liberties it would be to turn over every stone in this country to search for someone who might not be here legally? How many billions of dollars would it cost? The government would likely introduce a national identification card in effort to determine who should be here and who should not. The cards would no doubt be equipped with biometric data to transmit to the government information about law-abiding American citizens that they have no right knowing.
But on the other hand, how many billions of dollars per year does it cost to provide federal, state, and local welfare and other benefits to individuals who are not legally in the United States?
The situation seems impossible and it is true there are no easy answers. I have suggested in my book Liberty Defined that some status short of citizenship might be conferred on a case-by-case basis. Perhaps a “green card” with a notation indicating that the person is not eligible for welfare and not permitted to vote in the United States. I don’t think there is any doubt that many who come to this country illegally simply want to work and will take jobs that Americans refuse to take.
The fact is, in a more libertarian society citizenship itself would not be all that highly prized. Immigration could be controlled to a degree using property rights instead of building walls and issuing a national ID card. One very important “right” currently granted by US citizenship is the “right” to all the free stuff from the government. A more libertarian society would likely have a more restrictive immigration policy because entry into the US would not be accompanied by guarantees of free things and most property would be owned privately.
Similarly, the issue of birthright citizenship would be much less difficult if acquiring American citizenship by the fact of being born on US soil did not grant the child the ability to take advantage of the welfare state. Remove the welfare magnet and you will greatly reduce the incentive to give birth here in order to gain citizenship for the baby.
Congress has within its power the authority to clarify the 14th Amendment’s definition of citizenship by making it clear that it does not grant citizenship by birthright. Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution is very clear: Congress has the power, “To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States.” This power has been used in the past to clarify birthright citizenship, including for the children of diplomats born on US soil and foreign prisoners who may give birth while in jail. There is no reason Congress cannot provide further clarification of what the 14 Amendment means when it refers to “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States.
It is our weak economy, caused to a great degree by the Federal Reserve system and the business cycles it constantly creates, that makes the immigration situation worse for us. Neither extreme position is correct because neither takes this into consideration. A move toward more liberty would be the first step toward a normal immigration policy.
As much as I like Ron Paul, I have to disagree with him, on this one. If we had a truly level “playing field’ his ideas might work, but, unless we get the employment situation in hand, making sure that every native-born AMERICAN citizen has a job commensurate with their skills, the onslaught of uncontrolled immigration will take its toll…
Employers are already taking advantage of this situation, forgoing hiring native-born AMERICAN citizens, while importing “lower cost” H1-B visa holders. Add to that, employers that “look the other way, paying illegal aliens CASH, while the illegal aliens are supported by us AMERICAN citizen taxpayers by being on the public dole–all it takes is one “anchor baby” to receive benefits…
In the 1950s President Eisenhower implemented “Operation wetback” and was successful in repatriating illegal aliens.
Dr. Paul is wrong…it can be done…
As to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, the answer is already there–five words–“subject to the jurisdiction of”–illegal aliens are not “subject to the jurisdiction of” the United States, and as such have NO say in their being in the United States…
Anarchyst, nice post. You’re right, he’s getting lost in the weeds. Look at rand. Promising dude, tried to go in too many directions at once, result, nothing.
This asinine nonsense is what I truly find disgusting about libertarians . They are some of the biggest supporters of immigration.You let these illegals stay only more will come.This has to be stop.What Ron Paul is saying is that we don’t have the will to round these people up and send them back to Mexico. We have the man power , the technology but not the will to stop this invasion..
It is truly sickening to listen to people who tell us this invasion can’t be stop .That these illegals can’t be sent home That we must give then green cards and then citizenship. IT is all DAMN LIES and Ron Paul knows it.He is part of the problem.
What a bunch of fucking morons commenting on this post, totally missing the point, reading only what they want to read.
its been said before and bears repeating, admin really should have a basic IQ test requirement for commenters.
The same people that claim the 14th gives uninfringeable citizenship rights to anyone born within our borders for any reason usually also claim the second amendment authorizes unlimited government infringement on our right to arms.
Get rid of all public aid and benefits (welfare) to anyone immigrating here -that’s the way it was in the past before such things became the norm- and you’ll solve the immigration problem.
Thank you, Harry…
bb “Who is WE???” Again, the ridiculous cognitive dissonance. The “WE” you speak of could only be the US Government. Yes, they will “fix” the immigration problem, just like fixed the drug problem, the terrorist problem, the poverty problem and the economy. Brilliant!!!!!
Paul is on to something with simply taking away free shit.
But, I think he also realizes the situation is quite hopeless. That was a solution for twenty years ago (at least).
Now, the solution will be this (like I have said before and will keep saying as long as I read posts like those from Anarchyst and bb):
Step 1: USA!USA!USA! enters utter collapse period.
Step 2: Riots, civil unrest, commercial collapse, government collapses.
Step 3: No one wants to come here anymore, in fact people flee in droves.
No more immigration problem.
Also, since I think no one read this, I will post it again and again, until people start to see the real picture:
OK, harry. What is the point? Talk is cheap. It’s real easy to criticize (talking about Dr. Paul, not you) real hard to actually solve anything. Dr. Paul says look to liberty is the answer. What the fuck does that even mean, and how is that actionable?
“Has anyone thought for a moment about how difficult, expensive, disruptive, and dangerous to our civil liberties it would be to turn over every stone in this country to search for someone who might not be here legally?” ———- article
It doesn’t need to be difficult and expensive.
Everyone that applies for a job or free shit must;
—– produce their birth certificate
—– if it doesn’t say United States Of America, then produce Naturalization Papers or visa’s …. to prove you are allowed to be here ….. otherwise, fuck off.
This won’t work for anchor babies as they become old enough to work. Nevertheless, stop the ability to work and/or get free shit, and just watch how fast these illegals run back to Meh-hee-ko.
It is actionable by first changing the way we look at problems. Turning to the fucking STATE to fix our immigration problems is idiotic. The USG has caused this problem, just like all the other ones this country has….but they will now somehow “fix” it, if only what??? the “right” people get elected and enact the “right” laws. This is how we got into the mess we are in…turning to the govt for EVERY fucking THING that is the slightest bit wrong with our existence.
WORSE than turning to the fox for henhouse guarding or a heroin addict to control the drug lockup.
Starfucker, it’s clear to me. Liberty means not taking my things at gun point and redistributing them. NO MORE FREE SHIT!!!
He points out the actual disease instead of a symtom, the fed and the over reaching govt. Everytime govt says there is a problem, they come with a solution and the govt gets stronger and good people get poorer and less free. Why would it be any different this time? Before you try and answer, grab your ears and pull until you hear the pop.
Remember, when all the walls are constructed to keep out who the govt doesnt approve (it will start with illegals but go onto those who havent had the necessary diversity/empathy training) then those same walls keep anyone who wants to leave from leaving and we are literally a prison nation. You like TSA lines at airports, ready for them at your grocery store? You ready to hear “papieren bitte” on a regular basis?
Take away the free shit and the locust army of free shitters goes elsewhere or die off, it really is that fucking simple. But because it is so simple and clear it also causes pain for many voters and will never be implemented. There are too many freeshitters that werent born as anchor babies that think they are “productive” that cant use the lump 3 ft above their fat asses.
Morons like you three amigo circle-jerking dipshits are how “strong leaders with solutions” get elected and hitlers get into power and a generation is wiped out due to war.
Fuck off and toss each others salad while watching the donald be the most flamboyant actor on the stage of this kabuki theater, all the while you play the role of “patriotic american.”
Ok Harry p.,what’s your plan ?.None of this other bullshit has /will work.So tell us Harry .Give us you brilliant ideas
DRUD ,you realize the governments for the last 30 years have been liberal . We need an Eisenhower to stop this shit.Fuck what Mexico thinks .Declare Martial law if that’s what it takes. If this is not stop the system is going to collapse Stop all immigration both illegal and legal .That’s the only situation.You are part of the problem if you say immigration can’t be stopped. It can be stopped just like Eisenhower stopped it. Put the Damn Army on the borders.
For a man as smart as he appeared to be.RP sure couldn’t pick someone decent to run his campaign.Rand couldnt either.(same guy?)
Fixing illegal immigration takes people having the will to actually do it. I could get it done.
Yes, bb, very good…Martial Law to stop immigration…while you’re add it, you should cut off your arm to cure your hangnail..or like they said during the French Revolution La Guillotine ’tis the best cure for headache.
Of course, that cure may improve your thinking on this matter.
Great ideas harry. Ron paul was in congress for centuries, never got a single bill passes. I guess that looks like leadership to a liberaltarian. I dunno, I always thought the job of a leader was to lead. bb has more actionable ideas, and probably more spine,tthan both pauls put together.
bb,
Did you even read what Harry p posted? “Take away the free shit and the locust army of free shitters goes elsewhere or die off, it really is that fucking simple”. No troops needed, no national ID card, and no wall needed. Works for me.
Strfcker applauding bb for his actionable ideas?
If that isnt a sign of dumbfuckedness raised to the nth (n–> infinity), then i dont know what is.
Heres a start to my actionable ideas, abolish fed, abolish income tax, abolish property taxes, abolish school taxes, abolish dept of ed. And then on day 2 fire 90% of all govt workers.
That would be a good start as opposed the balloon knot pirates ideas of accererating the police state trans formation because “dey turk uhr jabs” and making govt more powerful and all of us less free.
Hallelujah harry p…preach on.
Real solutions to the real problems…not reactionary thinking to problems put before us by our fucking rulers.
And not one mention of building walls or arming copfuks or breaking posse comitatus (as if it actually still existed) or any of the other nonsense spewed by our resident “government to the rescue” crowd…mainly those that still, despite ALL evidence to the contrary, believe one silly letter (R) superior to another silly letter (D). bb I am looking in your general direction.
Of course, I’m sure I dishearten or disillusion you none when I say none of your suggestion have the slightest chance in hell of actually occurring…at least these are the right ideas, despite them being utter impossibilities.
OK, how you gonna get that done? Ain’t gonna happen. BB is no dummy. I don’t hate government. And I’m no liberaltarian. Again, neither paul has ever gotten anything done. Being a scold is not the same thing as being leader. Criticism takes no effort. So it gets no respect. Getting things done is hard.
How rich, its easier to arm a bunch of goons to recreate the situation at places like Fulda Gap than it is to just mothball a bunch of govt buildings, fire worthless workers and undo immoral edicts. That should only be true in bizarroland, ynfortunately this is the world we live in. We are slaves with masters/owners and shitkickers like bb and starfucker just hope for a nice master.
Real leaders e lighten people, motivate them to act morally, cherish what is actually important and educate so people can succeed as individuals as well as a team (one that isnt coerced into working together). RP ticks off all those boxes while that shitheel Trump leaves every box unchecked.
Oh i know there is no chance because 90+% arent mentally fit to dress themselves and maintain their general hygene (looking at the moron triplets on this thread) because they want other people to lead them or fix things for them, fix your own shit, be your own man, they are nothing but a bunch of scared pansies.
The fact that thise things are untouchable says horrible things about our society, not about RP.
Harry p ,you just said none of your ideas would ever be implemented . A true libertarian. Libertarians do nothing . They never have or will.Now go to your room and be quiet
That may be true, but because closeminded morons like you are still breathing voting and a general waste of carbon hindering actual liberty.
Go live in your fedex truck down by the river and sodimize lil bb you freak.
And its better to do nothing than accomplish anything one of the approved of R’s or D’s propose because everytime they succeed the country deteriorates some degree.
That deterioration is on you whether you realize it or not fuck knob.
Harry, if the pauls are real leaders, why aren’t they leading, instead of wasting our time scolding. I guess rand could lead, as soon as he’s done washing mitch mcconnells car. Explain that one, dumbass
You dont understand because we dont need the leaders the likes of you and bb fantasize about.
They are the ones that RP lead people to not be infatuated with.
This is what politicians are doing while you are arguing about how they should solve our immigration problem:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-26/1000s-political-figures-are-stashing-cash-swiss-accounts-foreign-ministry-admits
Yep, trust these people and all of our problems will soon be a thing of the past!
One of the biggest things is people like bb and starfucker think they arent part of the problem
Harry p , I’m part of the problem . Good Lord child .I just pointed out that libertarians have no real answers. You said their ideas and yours will never be implemented . So what now ?
At least Trump has a starting point: close the borders , build a fence ,stop most legal immigration. At least Trump has ideas. Solid ideas .
Leave little bb alone.He is a true blooded American Cat of the highest character.He likes to watch … The walking dead…
I have a dozen deer hunting buddies who use dogs to hunt deer. Give them a bounty and they’ll rid the nation of wetbacks.
harry p. / DRUD …… you’re my kinda guys!! The TBP bullshit detectors …. which is sorely needed, as the collective IQ of this joint has decreased recently.
For example, bb advocating for Marshall Law??? Holy fuck, he’s reverting back to his Village Idiot ways. And starfcker mocking Ron Paul, because you know, ONE HONEST MAN against 500+ fucking criminals has a great chance of getting bills passed. Riiiiight.
There are at least 15 million illegal aliens in JUST California alone. At least.
If there are fewer than 50 million nationwide, I’d be amazed.
thanks stuck, it really has gone down, i’ve been consistently reading the articles/posts (awesome job on your pictorial essays even if i don’t comment on them) but been shying away from the comments. reading some peoples’ thoughts just makes me sad for the human race at times, too much doom porn is not good for the soul. i’ve gotten into with sensetti and others but at least i can respect him and his experience/intellect but these 3 ass clowns wanting marshal law and espousing liberty doesn’t work are truly skid marks on TBP.
i genuinely consider the likes of bb and strfucker part of the problem, that’s not hyperbole, just like HNIC and the other free shitters, they are leeches, destroyers of prosperity. their support for a monster like trump and his ideas are just as bad as the morons supporting and praising the obama dogma.
Stucky , that’s not the way you spell Martial law.You have to be able to spell in order to think correctly. That’s your problem.
In my experience, the answers to these issues are never difficult. They are just unpalatable.
You could always pass a law giving the illegals 2 weeks to vacate, or any illegals caught would be skinned alive. Bingo. Problem solved. Total cost almost nothing. Fifteen million illegals would bolt forhome.
So, when people say it is too difficult, or complex, to overcome the illegal alien roblem, it is total bullshit.
What they really mean is it requires action they are not prepared to implement.
The problem of oillegal immigration is very simple to solve. But it requires someone be prepared to dowhat is necessary to make it happen.
Anyone know a politician that is prepared to do something like that?
Re the comments re “subject to its jurisdiction”, anyone in the US is subject to its jurisdiction. And a lot of folks outside it, as well.
Harry – great rant.
Harry p , listen you little JERK off.I have been paying taxes every fucking year for 36 years of my life .I wish I was part of the ruling class. I wouldn’t be wasting time trying to convince you. that your ideas ( by your own admission ) will not only never be implemented but are foolish. You have to deal with this problem using force. Put the army on the border with shoot to kill orders. Stop all illegal immigration that way then maybe cut out welfare.Get control of the border first or nothing will work.
Liberaltarianism is a mental disorder. Get a broom, bb, nothing left to do here but sweep up the mess.
Btw – anyone suggesting that skinning illegals alive may be cruel and unusual punishment, and therefore unconstitutional can blow me. Constitutional rights only extend to citizens. You can have open season on everyone else if it suits.
Besides, nothing to worry about. Trump is fading fast. Rand paul is up to 1.5 per cent. Mitch mcconnell must be so proud. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/26/poll-donald-trump-sets-record-hits-40-percent-in-new-poll/
Lipoh , that’s what I have been saying . These politicians will not do what is necessary for fear of blood shed or being called racist .Solving the illegal immigration problem is simple. They will never do anything until the border is under control. Trump may have the will to do what it takes.
I don’t know . Trump may turn out to be a big disappointment but what are the alternatives?
Sorry, I’m not buying it. Enact asset forfeiture against these lawbreakers and use their own ill gotten gains to deport them. Or just enact strict jail time for anyone hiring an illegal, stop giving them ANY social assistance, end anchor baby citizenship, make it illegal to rent or sell a home to them or to license them; and let them deport themselves.
llpoh,
About the phrase “subject to its jurisdiction”, you ought to know that Injuns weren’t granted citizenship until 1924.
Anarcho – but we were sure subject to the jurisdiction, weren’t we?!
llpoh, maybe I’m misunderstanding, but it sounds like you’re saying that anyone physically in the US (except diplomats?) is “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”, and therefor their children are citizens under the 14th amendment. I was pointing to the Citizenship Act of 1924 as disproof of that.
I am saying that if someone is born in the US they sure as hell are subject to its jurisdiction. Same goes for anyone setting foot in the US. That view of the 14th is bullshit wishful thinking.
Persons not subject to the jurisdiction of would be very limited, such as diplomatic personnel. Otherwise, just about anyone in the US is subject to its jurisdiction.
Jurisdiction:
noun
1.
the right, power, or authority to administer justice by hearing and determining controversies.
2.
power; authority; control:
He has jurisdiction over all American soldiers in the area.
3.
the extent or range of judicial, law enforcement, or other authority:
This case comes under the jurisdiction of the local police.
4.
the territory over which authority is exercised:
All islands to the northwest are his jurisdiction.
You think someone born in the US is not subject to its jurisdiction? How absurd.
llpoh,
Absurd or not, it was the law. An Indian born off the reservation, on US territory, but possessing membership in the tribe, was not considered “under the jurisdiction thereof” and was not a citizen under the 14th Amendment. Look it up.