Question Authority

Guest Post by Hardscrabble Farmer

It’s easy to dismiss people who have no scientific credentials when they question scientific discoveries. The reasoning is that because they are untrained and have no formal training their input is not relevant if it counters established policy or position. To some degree this is a valid point, but we must also recall that men like Tesla, Copernicus and Edison were not degree holding scientists and their contributions to the field are beyond compare. Science is about observation, testable explanations and predictions about the mechanics of the physical world.

Anyone can perform a simple experiment, we teach the discipline to children, we use our knowledge daily in the act of living our lives, from boiling water to cleaning our homes. Many experiments require complex equipment, costly environments and extensive knowledge of mathematics and physics, and so people delegate these outcomes to those with access, trusting them to be truthful and without guile about the results. Often, due to the costs associated, scientists must rely on funding from government, academic institutions and corporate sponsors. Often there are strings attached and certain results desired.

It is a rare person who can stand up to both authority and the man who controls the financial strings that come with these arrangements. A former neighbor of mine was the CEO of one of the largest polling organizations in the country. Most people believe that polling is based on scientific sampling of populations in order to better understand opinions with narrow margins of error. During one particular discussion I asked him how he was able to determine with certainty what a given opinion was and he said, “That’s easy, it’s whatever the guy who writes the check wants it to be.”

The greatest single lesson I ever learned from my Father, the best teacher I ever had, was to question authority. He was the one who taught me about men like Stanley Milgram and Tomas de Torquemada and the lessons of blind acquiescence to men in positions of authority. I didn’t always listen to him and some of my only regrets in life are tied to my failure to remember what he taught me.

As I become older and the bonds of social acceptance and approval become increasingly meaningless, I have begun to look into things that stir my curiosity, to test for myself long held beliefs based on the observations and conclusions of others, to see if I can replicate the same solutions to my satisfaction. I understand that there are some things that I will never know and I guess I can live with that, but nothing will ever keep me from following that thread that leads me to some kind of understanding of the mechanics of the world. It is far too beautiful to allow someone else to experience that for me.

Open Science Collaboration is a group that tests scientific research under the same criteria as the peer reviewed papers that have already been published, in numerous disciplines. As the article below shows, the majority of those tested fail to reach the original conclusions, even when the original scientists collaborate under the same conditions. Peer review used to mean peer duplicated. Today over 90% of all peer reviewed work is not duplicated, merely proofread by fellow scientists.

That is a problem and it leads to doubt, justifiably. As I have posted in other threads in the past I no longer trust the official narrative of numerous disciplines, not because they are necessarily false, but because the authority that stands behind the claims has proven itself to be unreliable and no longer worthy of trust. As much as I am saddened by no longer accepting the uplifting stories of mankind’s greatest accomplishments, it is far more depressing to think that the reason behind it is the duplicity and deception of the very authority that may have made those successes a possibility.

 

Scientific Regress by William A. Wilson

The problem with ­science is that so much of it simply isn’t. Last summer, the Open Science Collaboration announced that it had tried to replicate one hundred published psychology experiments sampled from three of the most prestigious journals in the field. Scientific claims rest on the idea that experiments repeated under nearly identical conditions ought to yield approximately the same results, but until very recently, very few had bothered to check in a systematic way whether this was actually the case. The OSC was the biggest attempt yet to check a field’s results, and the most shocking. In many cases, they had used original experimental materials, and sometimes even performed the experiments under the guidance of the original researchers. Of the studies that had originally reported positive results, an astonishing 65 percent failed to show statistical significance on replication, and many of the remainder showed greatly reduced effect sizes.

Their findings made the news, and quickly became a club with which to bash the social sciences. But the problem isn’t just with psychology. There’s an ­unspoken rule in the pharmaceutical industry that half of all academic biomedical research will ultimately prove false, and in 2011 a group of researchers at Bayer decided to test it. Looking at sixty-seven recent drug discovery projects based on preclinical cancer biology research, they found that in more than 75 percent of cases the published data did not match up with their in-house attempts to replicate. These were not studies published in fly-by-night oncology journals, but blockbuster research featured in Science, Nature, Cell, and the like. The Bayer researchers were drowning in bad studies, and it was to this, in part, that they attributed the mysteriously declining yields of drug pipelines. Perhaps so many of these new drugs fail to have an effect because the basic research on which their development was based isn’t valid.

When a study fails to replicate, there are two possible interpretations. The first is that, unbeknownst to the investigators, there was a real difference in experimental setup between the original investigation and the failed replication. These are colloquially referred to as “wallpaper effects,” the joke being that the experiment was affected by the color of the wallpaper in the room. This is the happiest possible explanation for failure to reproduce: It means that both experiments have revealed facts about the universe, and we now have the opportunity to learn what the difference was between them and to incorporate a new and subtler distinction into our theories.

The other interpretation is that the original finding was false. Unfortunately, an ingenious statistical argument shows that this second interpretation is far more likely. First articulated by John Ioannidis, a professor at Stanford University’s School of Medicine, this argument proceeds by a simple application of Bayesian statistics. Suppose that there are a hundred and one stones in a certain field. One of them has a diamond inside it, and, luckily, you have a diamond-detecting device that advertises 99 percent accuracy. After an hour or so of moving the device around, examining each stone in turn, suddenly alarms flash and sirens wail while the device is pointed at a promising-looking stone. What is the probability that the stone contains a diamond?

Most would say that if the device advertises 99 percent accuracy, then there is a 99 percent chance that the device is correctly discerning a diamond, and a 1 percent chance that it has given a false positive reading. But consider: Of the one hundred and one stones in the field, only one is truly a diamond. Granted, our machine has a very high probability of correctly declaring it to be a diamond. But there are many more diamond-free stones, and while the machine only has a 1 percent chance of falsely declaring each of them to be a diamond, there are a hundred of them. So if we were to wave the detector over every stone in the field, it would, on average, sound twice—once for the real diamond, and once when a false reading was triggered by a stone. If we know only that the alarm has sounded, these two possibilities are roughly equally probable, giving us an approximately 50 percent chance that the stone really contains a diamond.

This is a simplified version of the argument that Ioannidis applies to the process of science itself. The stones in the field are the set of all possible testable hypotheses, the diamond is a hypothesized connection or effect that happens to be true, and the diamond-detecting device is the scientific method. A tremendous amount depends on the proportion of possible hypotheses which turn out to be true, and on the accuracy with which an experiment can discern truth from falsehood. Ioannidis shows that for a wide variety of scientific settings and fields, the values of these two parameters are not at all favorable.

For instance, consider a team of molecular biologists investigating whether a mutation in one of the countless thousands of human genes is linked to an increased risk of Alzheimer’s. The probability of a randomly selected mutation in a randomly selected gene having precisely that effect is quite low, so just as with the stones in the field, a positive finding is more likely than not to be spurious—unless the experiment is unbelievably successful at sorting the wheat from the chaff. Indeed, Ioannidis finds that in many cases, approaching even 50 percent true positives requires unimaginable accuracy. Hence the eye-catching title of his paper: “Why Most Published Research Findings Are False.”

What about accuracy? Here, too, the news is not good. First, it is a de facto standard in many fields to use one in twenty as an acceptable cutoff for the rate of false positives. To the naive ear, that may sound promising: Surely it means that just 5 percent of scientific studies report a false positive? But this is precisely the same mistake as thinking that a stone has a 99 percent chance of containing a ­diamond just because the detector has sounded. What it really means is that for each of the countless false hypo­theses that are contemplated by researchers, we accept a 5 percent chance that it will be falsely counted as true—a decision with a considerably more deleterious effect on the proportion of correct studies.

Paradoxically, the situation is actually made worse by the fact that a promising connection is often studied by several independent teams. To see why, suppose that three groups of researchers are studying a phenomenon, and when all the data are analyzed, one group announces that it has discovered a connection, but the other two find nothing of note. Assuming that all the tests involved have a high statistical power, the lone positive finding is almost certainly the spurious one. However, when it comes time to report these findings, what happens? The teams that found a negative result may not even bother to write up their non-discovery. After all, a report that a fanciful connection probably isn’t true is not the stuff of which scientific prizes, grant money, and tenure decisions are made.

And even if they did write it up, it probably wouldn’t be accepted for publication. Journals are in competition with one another for attention and “impact factor,” and are always more eager to report a new, exciting finding than a killjoy failure to find an association. In fact, both of these effects can be quantified. Since the majority of all investigated hypotheses are false, if positive and negative evidence were written up and accepted for publication in equal proportions, then the majority of articles in scientific journals should report no findings. When tallies are actually made, though, the precise opposite turns out to be true: Nearly every published scientific article reports the presence of an association. There must be massive bias at work.

Ioannidis’s argument would be potent even if all scientists were angels motivated by the best of intentions, but when the human element is considered, the picture becomes truly dismal. Scientists have long been aware of something euphemistically called the “experimenter effect”: the curious fact that when a phenomenon is investigated by a researcher who happens to believe in the phenomenon, it is far more likely to be detected. Much of the effect can likely be explained by researchers unconsciously giving hints or suggestions to their human or animal subjects, perhaps in something as subtle as body language or tone of voice. Even those with the best of intentions have been caught fudging measurements, or making small errors in rounding or in statistical analysis that happen to give a more favorable result. Very often, this is just the result of an honest statistical error that leads to a desirable outcome, and therefore it isn’t checked as deliberately as it might have been had it pointed in the opposite direction.

But, and there is no putting it nicely, deliberate fraud is far more widespread than the scientific establishment is generally willing to admit. One way we know that there’s a great deal of fraud occurring is that if you phrase your question the right way, ­scientists will confess to it. In a survey of two thousand research psychologists conducted in 2011, over half of those surveyed admitted outright to selectively reporting those experiments which gave the result they were after. Then the investigators asked respondents anonymously to estimate how many of their fellow scientists had engaged in fraudulent behavior, and promised them that the more accurate their guesses, the larger a contribution would be made to the charity of their choice. Through several rounds of anonymous guessing, refined using the number of scientists who would admit their own fraud and other indirect measurements, the investigators concluded that around 10 percent of research psychologists have engaged in outright falsification of data, and more than half have engaged in less brazen but still fraudulent behavior such as reporting that a result was statistically significant when it was not, or deciding between two different data analysis techniques after looking at the results of each and choosing the more favorable.

Many forms of statistical falsification are devilishly difficult to catch, or close enough to a genuine judgment call to provide plausible deniability. Data analysis is very much an art, and one that affords even its most scrupulous practitioners a wide degree of latitude. Which of these two statistical tests, both applicable to this situation, should be used? Should a subpopulation of the research sample with some common criterion be picked out and reanalyzed as if it were the totality? Which of the hundreds of coincident factors measured should be controlled for, and how? The same freedom that empowers a statistician to pick a true signal out of the noise also enables a dishonest scientist to manufacture nearly any result he or she wishes. Cajoling statistical significance where in reality there is none, a practice commonly known as “p-hacking,” is particularly easy to accomplish and difficult to detect on a case-by-case basis. And since the vast majority of studies still do not report their raw data along with their findings, there is often nothing to re-analyze and check even if there were volunteers with the time and inclination to do so.

One creative attempt to estimate how widespread such dishonesty really is involves comparisons between fields of varying “hardness.” The author, Daniele Fanelli, theorized that the farther from physics one gets, the more freedom creeps into one’s experimental methodology, and the fewer constraints there are on a scientist’s conscious and unconscious biases. If all scientists were constantly attempting to influence the results of their analyses, but had more opportunities to do so the “softer” the science, then we might expect that the social sciences have more papers that confirm a sought-after hypothesis than do the physical sciences, with medicine and biology somewhere in the middle. This is exactly what the study discovered: A paper in psychology or psychiatry is about five times as likely to report a positive result as one in astrophysics. This is not necessarily evidence that psychologists are all consciously or unconsciously manipulating their data—it could also be evidence of massive publication bias—but either way, the result is disturbing.

Speaking of physics, how do things go with this hardest of all hard sciences? Better than elsewhere, it would appear, and it’s unsurprising that those who claim all is well in the world of science reach so reliably and so insistently for examples from physics, preferably of the most theoretical sort. Folk histories of physics combine borrowed mathematical luster and Whiggish triumphalism in a way that journalists seem powerless to resist. The outcomes of physics experiments and astronomical observations seem so matter-of-fact, so concretely and immediately connected to underlying reality, that they might let us gingerly sidestep all of these issues concerning motivated or sloppy analysis and interpretation. “E pur si muove,” Galileo is said to have remarked, and one can almost hear in his sigh the hopes of a hundred science journalists for whom it would be all too convenient if Nature were always willing to tell us whose theory is more correct.

And yet the flight to physics rather gives the game away, since measured any way you like—volume of papers, number of working researchers, total amount of funding—deductive, theory-building physics in the mold of Newton and Lagrange, Maxwell and Einstein, is a tiny fraction of modern science as a whole. In fact, it also makes up a tiny fraction of modern physics. Far more common is the delicate and subtle art of scouring inconceivably vast volumes of noise with advanced software and mathematical tools in search of the faintest signal of some hypothesized but never before observed phenomenon, whether an astrophysical event or the decay of a subatomic particle. This sort of work is difficult and beautiful in its own way, but it is not at all self-evident in the manner of a falling apple or an elliptical planetary orbit, and it is very sensitive to the same sorts of accidental contamination, deliberate fraud, and unconscious bias as the medical and social-scientific studies we have discussed. Two of the most vaunted physics results of the past few years—the announced discovery of both cosmic inflation and gravitational waves at the BICEP2 experiment in Antarctica, and the supposed discovery of superluminal neutrinos at the Swiss-Italian border—have now been retracted, with far less fanfare than when they were first published.

Many defenders of the scientific establishment will admit to this problem, then offer hymns to the self-correcting nature of the scientific method. Yes, the path is rocky, they say, but peer review, competition between researchers, and the comforting fact that there is an objective reality out there whose test every theory must withstand or fail, all conspire to mean that sloppiness, bad luck, and even fraud are exposed and swept away by the advances of the field.

So the dogma goes. But these claims are rarely treated like hypotheses to be tested. Partisans of the new scientism are fond of recounting the “Sokal hoax”—physicist Alan Sokal submitted a paper heavy on jargon but full of false and meaningless statements to the postmodern cultural studies journal Social Text, which accepted and published it without quibble—but are unlikely to mention a similar experiment conducted on reviewers of the prestigious British Medical Journal. The experimenters deliberately modified a paper to include eight different major errors in study design, methodology, data analysis, and interpretation of results, and not a single one of the 221 reviewers who participated caught all of the errors. On average, they caught fewer than two—and, unbelievably, these results held up even in the subset of reviewers who had been specifically warned that they were participating in a study and that there might be something a little odd in the paper that they were reviewing. In all, only 30 percent of reviewers recommended that the intentionally flawed paper be rejected.

If peer review is good at anything, it appears to be keeping unpopular ideas from being published. Consider the finding of another (yes, another) of these replicability studies, this time from a group of cancer researchers. In addition to reaching the now unsurprising conclusion that only a dismal 11 percent of the preclinical cancer research they examined could be validated after the fact, the authors identified another horrifying pattern: The “bad” papers that failed to replicate were, on average, cited far more often than the papers that did! As the authors put it, “some non-reproducible preclinical papers had spawned an entire field, with hundreds of secondary publications that expanded on elements of the original observation, but did not actually seek to confirm or falsify its fundamental basis.”

What they do not mention is that once an entire field has been created—with careers, funding, appointments, and prestige all premised upon an experimental result which was utterly false due either to fraud or to plain bad luck—pointing this fact out is not likely to be very popular. Peer review switches from merely useless to actively harmful. It may be ineffective at keeping papers with analytic or methodological flaws from being published, but it can be deadly effective at suppressing criticism of a dominant research paradigm. Even if a critic is able to get his work published, pointing out that the house you’ve built together is situated over a chasm will not endear him to his colleagues or, more importantly, to his mentors and patrons.

Older scientists contribute to the propagation of scientific fields in ways that go beyond educating and mentoring a new generation. In many fields, it’s common for an established and respected researcher to serve as “senior author” on a bright young star’s first few publications, lending his prestige and credibility to the result, and signaling to reviewers that he stands behind it. In the natural sciences and medicine, senior scientists are frequently the controllers of laboratory resources—which these days include not just scientific instruments, but dedicated staffs of grant proposal writers and regulatory compliance experts—without which a young scientist has no hope of accomplishing significant research. Older scientists control access to scientific prestige by serving on the editorial boards of major journals and on university tenure-review committees. Finally, the government bodies that award the vast majority of scientific funding are either staffed or advised by distinguished practitioners in the field.

All of which makes it rather more bothersome that older scientists are the most likely to be invested in the regnant research paradigm, whatever it is, even if it’s based on an old experiment that has never successfully been replicated. The quantum physicist Max Planck famously quipped: “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” Planck may have been too optimistic. A recent paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research studied what happens to scientific subfields when star researchers die suddenly and at the peak of their abilities, and finds that while there is considerable evidence that young researchers are reluctant to challenge scientific superstars, a sudden and unexpected death does not significantly improve the situation, particularly when “key collaborators of the star are in a position to channel resources (such as editorial goodwill or funding) to insiders.”

In the idealized Popperian view of scientific progress, new theories are proposed to explain new evidence that contradicts the predictions of old theories. The heretical philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend, on the other hand, claimed that new theories frequently contradict the best available evidence—at least at first. Often, the old observations were inaccurate or irrelevant, and it was the invention of a new theory that stimulated experimentalists to go hunting for new observational techniques to test it. But the success of this “unofficial” process depends on a blithe disregard for evidence while the vulnerable young theory weathers an initial storm of skepticism. Yet if Feyerabend is correct, and an unpopular new theory can ignore or reject experimental data long enough to get its footing, how much longer can an old and creaky theory, buttressed by the reputations and influence and political power of hundreds of established practitioners, continue to hang in the air even when the results upon which it is premised are exposed as false?

The hagiographies of science are full of paeans to the self-correcting, self-healing nature of the enterprise. But if raw results are so often false, the filtering mechanisms so ineffective, and the self-correcting mechanisms so compromised and slow, then science’s approach to truth may not even be monotonic. That is, past theories, now “refuted” by evidence and replaced with new approaches, may be closer to the truth than what we think now. Such regress has happened before: In the nineteenth century, the (correct) vitamin C deficiency theory of scurvy was replaced by the false belief that scurvy was caused by proximity to spoiled foods. Many ancient astronomers believed the heliocentric model of the solar system before it was supplanted by the geocentric theory of Ptolemy. The Whiggish view of scientific history is so dominant today that this possibility is spoken of only in hushed whispers, but ours is a world in which things once known can be lost and buried.

And even if self-correction does occur and theories move strictly along a lifecycle from less to more accurate, what if the unremitting flood of new, mostly false, results pours in faster? Too fast for the sclerotic, compromised truth-discerning mechanisms of science to operate? The result could be a growing body of true theories completely overwhelmed by an ever-larger thicket of baseless theories, such that the proportion of true scientific beliefs shrinks even while the absolute number of them continues to rise. Borges’s Library of Babel contained every true book that could ever be written, but it was useless because it also contained every false book, and both true and false were lost within an ocean of nonsense.

Which brings us to the odd moment in which we live. At the same time as an ever more bloated scientific bureaucracy churns out masses of research results, the majority of which are likely outright false, scientists themselves are lauded as heroes and science is upheld as the only legitimate basis for policy-making. There’s reason to believe that these phenomena are linked. When a formerly ascetic discipline suddenly attains a measure of influence, it is bound to be flooded by opportunists and charlatans, whether it’s the National Academy of Science or the monastery of Cluny.

This comparison is not as outrageous as it seems: Like monasticism, science is an enterprise with a superhuman aim whose achievement is forever beyond the capacities of the flawed humans who aspire toward it. The best scientists know that they must practice a sort of mortification of the ego and cultivate a dispassion that allows them to report their findings, even when those findings might mean the dashing of hopes, the drying up of financial resources, and the loss of professional prestige. It should be no surprise that even after outgrowing the monasteries, the practice of science has attracted souls driven to seek the truth regardless of personal cost and despite, for most of its history, a distinct lack of financial or status reward. Now, however, science and especially science bureaucracy is a career, and one amenable to social climbing. Careers attract careerists, in Feyerabend’s words: “devoid of ideas, full of fear, intent on producing some paltry result so that they can add to the flood of inane papers that now constitutes ‘scientific progress’ in many areas.”

If science was unprepared for the influx of careerists, it was even less prepared for the blossoming of the Cult of Science. The Cult is related to the phenomenon described as “scientism”; both have a tendency to treat the body of scientific knowledge as a holy book or an a-religious revelation that offers simple and decisive resolutions to deep questions. But it adds to this a pinch of glib frivolity and a dash of unembarrassed ignorance. Its rhetorical tics include a forced enthusiasm (a search on Twitter for the hashtag “#sciencedancing” speaks volumes) and a penchant for profanity. Here in Silicon Valley, one can scarcely go a day without seeing a t-shirt reading “Science: It works, b—es!” The hero of the recent popular movie The Martian boasts that he will “science the sh— out of” a situation. One of the largest groups on Facebook is titled “I f—ing love Science!” (a name which, combined with the group’s penchant for posting scarcely any actual scientific material but a lot of pictures of natural phenomena, has prompted more than one actual scientist of my acquaintance to mutter under her breath, “What you truly love is pictures”). Some of the Cult’s leaders like to play dress-up as scientists—Bill Nye and Neil deGrasse Tyson are two particularly prominent examples— but hardly any of them have contributed any research results of note. Rather, Cult leadership trends heavily in the direction of educators, popularizers, and journalists.

At its best, science is a human enterprise with a superhuman aim: the discovery of regularities in the order of nature, and the discerning of the consequences of those regularities. We’ve seen example after example of how the human element of this enterprise harms and damages its progress, through incompetence, fraud, selfishness, prejudice, or the simple combination of an honest oversight or slip with plain bad luck. These failings need not hobble the scientific enterprise broadly conceived, but only if scientists are hyper-aware of and endlessly vigilant about the errors of their colleagues . . . and of themselves. When cultural trends attempt to render science a sort of religion-less clericalism, scientists are apt to forget that they are made of the same crooked timber as the rest of humanity and will necessarily imperil the work that they do. The greatest friends of the Cult of Science are the worst enemies of science’s actual practice.

William A. Wilson is a software engineer in the San Francisco Bay Area.

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222 Comments
Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 12:08 pm

Bea

I shouldn’t be speaking for HSF but I do think he is yanking our chains little. I’m good with it though. I do get a kick out of how we all fall over ourselves telling him how nice a person he is and thanking him when he writes one of his fluffy “life on the farm” pieces.

It’s easy to call me a dickhead like Araven does. Why? Well that’s easy. I make no bones about it. I am one. Proud of it. I have in past Doxxed myself on this site because I, really, truly, don’t care what people think of my opinions.

But when HSF is up to no good everyone falls over themselves trying to pry just a sliver of info out of him. Yes his answer up above explained I suppose his life credo. And I guess it’s fine. If it works for him that’s all that matters.

In the past I have tried to live my life along those lines. It didn’t work for me. Questioning and mistrusting everything became a Cancer. I had to sit down and come up with a list of absolutes.

Maybe I’ll expand on this on Sunday. Maybe I don’t know. I’m never sure if my life has lessons for anyone else. Yet when I tell my story again it does resonate at least with some people.

HSF I admire. He can somehow balance his skepticism with a happy life. I am still a skeptic, less extreme I suppose. I should be one of the most skeptical on TBP seeing as how my life has gone in past. But I am not as far as I can tell.

Anyways gots to get back to work. Araven if you somehow figure out my name and where I live I advise against coming to see me. I’m a little older but I am one crazy motherfucker when I get mad.

This is what I am going to listen to for next hour or so. I have to get to work time to make the donuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLSkTcCWdbk

BUCKHED
BUCKHED
April 14, 2016 12:31 pm

HSF…perhaps some points from Lysander Spooner would be in order…he definitely “Questioned Authority ” .

Ol’ Cool Hand Luke did too ! Of course his problem was “Failure To Communicate ” .

starfcker
starfcker
April 14, 2016 12:36 pm

HSF, you’re dodging. Repeatable? NASA sent I think 11 manned missions to the moon. Demonstrable? I saw Saturn 5’s launch with my own eyes, spoken several times to a man that rode one (Borman). Commercial jets travel at 35,000 feet. I’m sure you’ve looked out the window of one of those. I’ve been at 45,000 feet. Looks just like you would expect a little higher to look like. Stuck’s U2 pic is probably 75,000 feet, and looks like you would think it would look. Space station photos look like you would expect a little higher to look. Where did we manage to actually do this, and where did we start pulling off elaborate hoaxes?

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 12:45 pm

I agree Starfcker. As I have learned we can ask but he ain’t telling.

DurangoDan
DurangoDan
April 14, 2016 1:08 pm

Who was president during all of the moon landings? Why have we never been back? Why isn’t Moon Landing Day a national holiday? It would be man’s greatest achievement. Ever watch this? Such utter lack enthusiasm is hard to digest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKl_oXxsQiA[img]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKl_oXxsQiA [/img]

DurangoDan
DurangoDan
April 14, 2016 1:10 pm

The link works but I need a primer on inserting the video. Sorry.

starfcker
starfcker
April 14, 2016 2:57 pm

Rob, he’s going somewhere with this. I’m just impatient.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 3:25 pm

starfcker

I’m laughing in Nova Scotia

I am impatient too!

I just see thru all the fluff farm prose. Anyways I’ve been thinking.

I think it should be up to those who are looking for the bogeyman to find it for us. Convince us. The whole thing is upside down. That montage last week “What’s wrong with this Picture”. Turns out there is nothing wrong with it according to my research. Nobody else got a hold of the guy who is responsible for sending that thing to space. Holy Fuck why would that guy lie. It makes no sense. And why should I have to do that. I did. Learned something which is great. But yeah whatever.

it just seems like a lazy mans way to frame an argument. But I can’t eat spit and chew while looking good. But that is the point. I end up Arguing with Tards too inept to do basic, and I mean basic fucking research. Everything needs to be deconstructed for these people. Hardly surprising I suppose. We live in a world of Critical Theory run amok. Everyone is a victim. Everyone is a special snowflake.

Well not everyone but you know what I mean…

Just my two cents.

nkit
nkit
April 14, 2016 4:50 pm

Here you go DurangoDan

right click and copy on address bar
select edit and then paste. move cursor down 2 or 3 lines
submit

nkit
nkit
April 14, 2016 4:52 pm

One more try

Snowflake
Snowflake
April 14, 2016 4:56 pm
DurangoDan
DurangoDan
April 14, 2016 5:37 pm

Thanks Nkit. Let’s see if this works. This is pretty cryptic.

Llpoh
Llpoh
April 14, 2016 6:42 pm

Rob in NS – you have become one of my favorite posters these days. Given the number of morons we see (see the we did not go to the moon, world is flat, WTC was blown up by explosives, etc. for exhibits of that), that is not a major complement, so do not let it go to your head. Just keep up the good work.

Stuck – we need a better caliber of moron. We need some with backbone. The Olde Virgins just are not much of a challenge. They cut and run at the first “blow me”.

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 7:06 pm

Olde Virginian- I hear what you are saying about cutting off the electronic BS and I know that some here can be abrasive but please reconsider leaving as some of us value your opinion.

If all that were left on the platform were the “yes men” who parrot the official thought, this place would lose a great deal of traffic.

Try to overlook the shortcomings of the programmed followers who don’t have the courage to break free of a lifetime of conformity.

I hope that you will stay.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 7:14 pm

Bea

Would I be considered one of those to which you refer…

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 7:17 pm

HF- I guess you are holding your cards close to your vest for now so we will wait to see where you are leading us with these very interesting articles. It is a good departure from the life on the farm stories which we also enjoy.

I also hope that you can escape from the chains of accepted thought programming some day and let it pour out into a symphony of words that you do so well.

Thanks again for the article.

llpoh
llpoh
April 14, 2016 7:27 pm

Bea begs the Old Virgin to return. TBP is Darwinism at work – only the strong need apply. Old Virgin has not the genes for this place. Why dilute the bloodline established by Admin, Smokey, AWD, SSS, that illustrious member of the master race, Stuck. And apologies to all the others not named who are also deserving like Muck, Hope, TE, et al.

Unbounded
Unbounded
April 14, 2016 7:46 pm

Old Virgin can fuck off. Like Flash, Monetfrio, and every other fucking pussy that ever flounced from TBP before. And everyone please bow down before the old dogs. They deserve it. I would too, except I need to shave my neck and water my plants. Oh well. Sorry. No disrespect. Rob from NS thinks he’s a bad ass. Makes me laigh. & maybe llpoh can blow me. Ha, ha! Fuck you all. 🙂 It’s the ideas that matter. Not the monikers. Or how long we’ve been here. IMHO…

Unbounded
Unbounded
April 14, 2016 7:49 pm

It all makes me laugh, I mean. No disrespect intended. Love to all! Hugs and kisses! May the debate (or TBP) never end.

Rock & Roll.

Forevermore….

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 7:50 pm

Loopey – You might want to take a look at the numbers around here. Reader traffic is way up and funds for Admin to keep the platform going is also up.

If anyone told the truth about this, it would be that alternative articles are very popular which you have had nothing to contribute. Be glad for Admin and STFU.

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 7:56 pm

Rob- I think you are a good guy but I have no idea which side of the fence you are on. I can tell you I dislike lapdogs.

No, I was not referring to you.

Unbounded
Unbounded
April 14, 2016 8:03 pm

PS – don’t think I’m disrespecting the old dogs. In fact, I think it’s you guys that have made this place special. More than so many other sites on the interwebs. U 2 lipoh. Especially. But sometimes, I get in a bad mood and I hate the state of the Affairs of the world today. And, I worry for my kids. But, Admin, is like a superhero to me. I wish I came here earlier so I could have got to know AWD, etc. But we “nubes” do the best we can. No hard feelings. It just is what it is. Nothing more nothing less

Unbounded
Unbounded
April 14, 2016 8:11 pm

BTW – Smokey, and others too. Just cuz I came late to the party doesn’t mean I’m a dumbass. Again, no disrespect intended. Am tryin’. A lot of us are. And most of us wont flounce. A lot of us are here until the shit comes down. May peace rain down upon us all. Amen. :). Luv ya’.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 8:12 pm

I’ll tell you what bea. I’m going to watch baseball. I’m not sure what the fence is that you are talking about. I have no idea what you stand for other than God.

You are pretty good at begging. not bad at asking questions and passable at conjugating verbs. You have given me an idea for an article for Sunday. Thanks!

And just so you know I have made a stand in my life. I’ll fiill you in on that on Sunday.

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 8:26 pm

Rob- I would look forward to any article you write on Sunday……if I have inspired an idea, that makes me even more interested in the subject matter.

You know for a long time I thought John Angelo had flounced after he had his ears pinned back so I am glad to see him post with regularity. He is always interesting and very funny. My opinion is the more the merrier around here, don’t you agree?

I didn’t beg Olde Virginian, I just voiced my opinion, is that wrong?

Unfriendly
Unfriendly
April 14, 2016 8:36 pm

It’s all good. I am so fond of the commenters here on TBP I can’t stand it. Rob from NS claims he’s a badass. That’s cool. Maybe he is.. But I guarun-fucking-tee that I truly am.

Currently, I am the angriest muthafucka’ on earth. People can make fun of the ”fluff” that Hardscrabble writes. But, truth is, it is his writing that gives me faith in humanity. To me, it is much more than “fluff”. Just sayin’….

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 8:42 pm

Yup it’s wrong.

Bea how about you explain this splendid strawman you unvieled earlier.

yes men of official thought.

Incorporating the possessive into you opinion. Make something instead of just parroting others.

lifetime of conformity.

that’s rich coming from a true trailblazer.

Unfriendly
Unfriendly
April 14, 2016 8:47 pm

Keep writing Rob from NS. You too HSF. Nothing else matters. Stucky Sundays. Whatever. It’s all good…

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 14, 2016 9:25 pm

Rob- Your idea of wrong and my idea of wrong varies. Me thinks you read too much into things.

Stucky and Olde Virginian having a dust up is everyday business around here. Heck I prolly had a confrontation with Stucky today.

I would hate to see you or OV or anybody leave.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 14, 2016 9:52 pm

Bea

My wife says I read too much! Maybe true but hardly matters.

Your idea of wrong and my idea of wrong varies.

Exactly

Now who gets to decide where the fence is? You have mentioned this fence. So you can enlighten us on where it is.

And don’t worry I’m not going anywhere.

Also. Why do you care about OV? He is an old horse with no teeth. Butchered by Stucky, with meat not even a Frenchmen would eat and not enough gristle for it to be worthwhile to send to the rendering plant.. If he doesn’t want to be here then we don’t need him.

Llpoh
Llpoh
April 14, 2016 10:17 pm

Bea – Readership is up. That is a great thing. Not so sure about donations. But best I can tell the number of comments are down – perhaps way down.

And the overall caliber of comment is not so good either, as there are some imbeciles gibbering away. They used to be treated with harshly. Hell, in the olden days, idiots suggesting the world was flat, there was no moon landing, or that automation should be taxed would be tarred and feathered.

Araven
Araven
April 14, 2016 10:42 pm

HSF, thank you for posting this. I understand that you are just addressing questioning authority, but the older I get the more I believe we should question everything. TPTB have manipulated our education, our society, our media, etc. to the point where we cannot trust ANYTHING up to and including “reality”. The problem is that the indoctrination is so thorough and so full of fake alleys and double crosses that we don’t even have a concept of where to start.

We all have our sacred cows that we just KNOW are good and real or bad and fake and we get angry if anyone dares to disagree. the Bible, butter, global warming, vaccines, the man in the moon, libertarianism, matter, vegetarianism, etc., etc. Start with your hot buttons, your sacred cows, because if you’re so rabidly in favor of or against something that you lose control it is probably because it was programmed into you by TPTB. If that sacred cow stands the test of dispassionate scrutiny then move on to the next one.

But, one of the problems with trying to figure out the validity of anything is that our powers of observation and analysis have been corrupted. Something reinforced in us by our education and the media ad nausium is that you have to choose between A or B: Dark or Light; Democrat or Republican; good or evil; on or off; liberal or conservative; christian or scientist; and so on. Not everything can be broken down into “A or B”. Maybe the answer is “A and B”. Maybe it is “part of A and a smidgeon of B”. Maybe it is “neither A or B”. Maybe the answer is watermelon.

Another issue is layers. Something might be true at one layer but not at another. If we believe we are on a far flung arm of the milky way galaxy on the third planet from the sun then there are certain “truths” that we take for granted like the earth is round, gravity, that solid matter is solid, and I am me and you are you. And trees, butterflies, rainbows, etc., etc. But if you start peeling back the layers getting smaller and smaller you run into things like quarks and muons and spooky action at a distance and electrons that act differently depending on whether or not they are being observed and suddenly you realize that solid matter is not matter and it certainly is not solid like you thought it was and if matter changes based on being observed by consiousness what does that indicate about consiousness?

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
April 15, 2016 5:32 am

Bea-

I know I have covered it detail earlier, but one more time-

No, I do not believe we went to the Moon. I think it was a creation of clandestine intelligence services as a means of destabilizing the Soviet Union and bolstering the pride and will of the American public as a way of continuing the build up of what Eisenhower so sternly warned us about- the military industrial complex. I think most of the people who worked on the program believed that’s what we were doing. Many facets we did accomplish- the Saturn program was a continuation not of our own programs but the ones developed by the Nazis Operation Paperclip, anyone? Like in similar intelligence operations there were so many layers and so few people with a total understanding of the big pic, as well as plausible deniability like the Moon sets/destruction of all the original footage, etc. keeping it a secret wasn’t that hard. Conspiracies happen all the time.

Again my biggest argument comes down not to the science behind it, but the manner in which it was delivered: as a result of a political speech in a specific time frame and the post landing interviews with the crew. Anyone who watches that and doesn’t see the demeanor and body language for what it was simply doesn’t want to acknowledge the truth that we were had- perhaps for good reason, perhaps not, I can’t tell you.

Flat Earth has caught my attention for several reasons, first because of the reaction of the establishment to it and then due to the much smaller details that cannot be explained by anyone in a logical and rational manner that holds up to proven science- the gyroscope effect being the most pronounced. Every day in my life, working with the processes of Nature and whatever created it I come to believe more in God and trust less in man. I don’t see that as a problem, I see that as prudent. YMMV.

And as Araven said in his last post, there are the layers- that matter really isn’t solid, those kinds of theoretical, but very real questions that we deal with in our daily life while never stopping to think of the implications. It’s sometimes too hard to get your head around and yet it is the reality of our existence. What kind of person doesn’t want to understand it?

So for the last time, no, I’m not yanking anyone’s chain. This is the place where I feel I can talk about things that I simply can’t elsewhere. I’m not trying to convince anyone but myself. I really do hope that this helps. There is a dim light appearing in the northeast and the day is already here. Sunrise, we still call it although technically it’s not. Allegedly.

Ed
Ed
April 15, 2016 5:50 am

HSF, I remember when they were showing the astronauts hopping around like fuckin retards on TV coverage of the moon landing. My brother and I were rollin around on the floor laughin our asses off. The Old Man was mad as hell at us and told us to get out of the livin room. He took it serious, y’know.

I think what got us laughin was that I said they were hoppin like fleas, and my brother said, naw, like frogs full of birdshot like in Mark Twain’s story. We saw that it looked fake as all hell, and were crackin up, like teenagers do.

It still looks fake as shit to me. You can see it on Youtube and I’ve looked at some of the footage again. That is some phony lookin shit. I shit you not. Moon landing’s ass. Bullshit. ahaha

Stucky
Stucky
April 15, 2016 6:19 am

Unaffected by anything and everything written before times … the retardation continues to roll unabated full steam ahead …. even picking up converts along the way.

Ed
Ed
April 15, 2016 6:37 am

Converts ass. Moon landing’s ass. Bullshit. ahaha

Llpoh
Llpoh
April 15, 2016 6:43 am

Stuck – I am starting to think that TBP needs a better class of poster. Batshit crazy is starting to grow old.

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
April 15, 2016 7:06 am

“Stuck – I am starting to think that TBP needs a better class of poster. Batshit crazy is starting to grow old.”

You should write more convincing responses.

People can only take so much of this kind of thing before they start to question the capabilities of the people who control the narrative-

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nasa-tapes-idUSTRE56F5MK20090720

How do you explain that? Incompetence? These are the same people who allegedly got us on the Moon, but they haven’t got a system in place to protect the evidence? Does Occam’s Razor come to mind?

Or this-

[img]https://www.google.com/search?q=NASA+head+kubrick+in+london&rlz=1C1AVNE_enUS655US655&espv=2&biw=1067&bih=517&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiRmJCcvZDMAhXKZj4KHdpjAp8Q_AUIBygC#imgrc=ztnyU0bXmIbj2M%3A[/img]

Why would the head of NASA be conferring with a man who has made his living in fictional work? NASA can fly men to the Moon, but they can’t find an American documentary filmmaker to record the event? That skill set had to be sub-contracted out because ti was too complex?

Or this?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/6105902/Moon-rock-given-to-Holland-by-Neil-Armstrong-and-Buzz-Aldrin-is-fake.html

Buzz Aldrin and Neil Armstrong Punk’d the Prime Minister of Holland and gave him a fake Moon rock? Why risk their reputations for such a stupid trick? I thought we were supposed to take their word as unimpeachable and now we discover- by accident- that they are either dishonest or juvenile pranksters.

And there’s far more than that, all of it throwing doubt on the rest because as we know, Government’s lie to their citizens all the time for their own ends and no one ever is punished for it.

Don’t think I don’t want to believe the story, I really do and it pisses me off on a personal level to even think this way, but when you start to put all the pieces together it becomes clear that there is deception involved and no culpability. And now the system is so polluted by this acceptance of criminality and indifference to the both the rule of law and to responsibility that we have a felon AND TRAITOR TO THE NATION AND IT’S PEOPLE as one of the top candidates for President AND NO ONE SEEMS TO CARE.

Look, enjoy your time Down Under, let us know about your entree into the world of agrarian self sufficiency, I’d personally love to hear your story, but stop harping on people being “low caliber’ because they are asking perfectly reasonable questions about an openly criminal government and its manifest lies.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 15, 2016 8:15 am

Yes Yes feel the power of the Dark Side. This is the Cancer I was speaking of.

[imgcomment image[/img]

Occam’s Razor back at ya!

http://www.moonlandinghoax.org/4.html
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast23feb_2/

I could go on but you get the point.

Stop being a hypocrite man. You are yanking chains! You don’t think so because you think that you are right and I am not. That’s why it is so hard to debate you. You are dishonest in your approach.

Oh yeah I’ll is this for Stucky. Just to show that I have a sense of humour. And I am spelling humour right! Says who. Well says the people who invented the English language. How do you like that for authority.

[imgcomment image[/img]

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
April 15, 2016 8:27 am

Rob, I rescind my previous offer to visit the farm. You aren’t the kind of person I would want anywhere near my family.

I don’t mind that we disagree, but your responses to me lately are entirely ad hominem and now they’re getting a bit awkward and sad.

All kidding aside, there is something wrong with you socially.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 15, 2016 8:32 am

Stucky

I would have posted Tits but I have always been more of an ass man.

Yeah too funny! See Araven I can make fun of myself as well.

Ah fuck it’s Friday eight hours to Beer O’clock. Blue Jays playing The Red Sox at eight. Maybe tomorrow I’ll write something to start another shitfest on Sunday. And yeah I plan on yanking a few chains. But I find that a lot more interesting than posting fluff about farms. But that’s just me. HSF no offense man but this nice guy thing you are trying to pull off is getting old.

I’m sure I’ll get loads of thumbs down but I don’t care anymore. Sitting around the campfire singing kumbaya is just flat out fucking boring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA

Stucky
Stucky
April 15, 2016 8:33 am

[imgcomment image[/img]

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 15, 2016 8:35 am

That’s rich you complain about ad hominem attacks then launch into one yourself.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with me. My wife might disagree…but whatever.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 15, 2016 8:39 am

Listening to this. See I can’t be that bad…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cdrBBnAuBA

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
April 15, 2016 8:43 am

“Most photographers already know the answer: It’s difficult to capture something very bright and something else very dim on the same piece of film — typical emulsions don’t have enough “dynamic range.” Astronauts striding across the bright lunar soil in their sunlit spacesuits were literally dazzling. Setting a camera with the proper exposure for a glaring spacesuit would naturally render background stars too faint to see.”

The above from Rob’s linked article. The reason we don’t see stars is because- as every photographer knows- emulsions don’t have enough “dynamic range”. If they did, we’d seem the stars, but they don’t so we don’t.

But then this curious response by Lunar Walkers Aldrin and Armstrong-

The human eye could not see the stars from the Lunar surface according to the astronauts. So why argue about “dynamic range” of film emulsions when the answer is simple, stars cannot be viewed from the Moon?

I only read a couple of paragraphs before finding that one. And the entire tone of it from the beginning- “My mother was so upset that someone at the coffee shop said we didn’t go to the Moon” is so yank-my-chain I am shocked you didn’t point it out.

We went, we didn’t. You can’t see stars because the camera didn’t have enough “dynamic range” or because you just can’t see them. NASA is so competent they can fly men to the Moon and back, but so incompetent they haven’t the sense to keep some archivist from recording over every last original Moon recording. So serious about their experience that they couldn’t manage a grin after the single greatest accomplishment ever made in the history of human life, but so darn playful they give foreign dignitaries chunks of petrified wood claiming they are Moon rocks and are never caught until the sample is accidentally analyzed for insurance purposes.

Rob in Nova Scotia
Rob in Nova Scotia
April 15, 2016 8:47 am

And so it goes. Too funnay!

Stucky
Stucky
April 15, 2016 8:52 am

HF is employing the Farmer Way Of Debate ….. just throw more fertilizer (bullshit) on top the old fertilizer, and hope something grows. Except, I seriously doubt anyone is reading anymore. Fertilizer Overload Disorder (FOD) ….. which is in the new DSM-V manual.

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 15, 2016 8:54 am

HF- Any doubt as to your sincerity has been lifted and I thank you for answering.

It is difficult to grasp living in a world that lies to you each and every day so some here attack in order to hold on to what they perceive as reality. They fail to understand that humans will never be free until they can reject the programming, I have never been able to embrace the lie completely.

Question everything.

Bea Lever
Bea Lever
April 15, 2016 8:58 am

Stucky- What is a DSM-V manual?