For the purposes of this article I need for everyone (believers and non-believers) to assume The Garden of Eden was real and literal.
Now, think about the Garden of Eden. There’s just one caveat; since the Garden of Eden is a story in the Bible, imagine it from a Biblical perspective. In other words, RiNS, do not think about Valhalla! (If you’re one of the five people in America not familiar with the story of Eden, it’s in Genesis 1-3, but mostly chapter 2).
Here’s a picture to help get your juices flowing.
OK, start thinking for a minute, or two.
So, how did you imagine it? I’ll bet 99% of folks would answer along these lines; ——– Perfection. Paradise. Beauty. Peace. Eternal. Happy. Free. Joy. Bliss. God with us. And so on.
Great. But here is what we ACTUALLY know about Eden.
—1) A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers.
—2) There were lots of trees … and EVERY tree was either nice to look at, or good for food. Two trees were named; Tree of Life. Tree of knowledge of good and evil.
——3) There were plants with seeds
——4) There were beasts in the field.
——5) There was livestock
——6) There were fouls in the air.
——7) There were things that “creeps” on the earth.
——8) One snake is reported. It could walk. And talk.
—9) Adam was Eden’s gardener. He had “to dress it and to keep it”
—10) The two humans walked around naked, God would walk around also and speak with them, and the first time the two people screwed up God tossed them out of the garden. Out East somewhere.
That’s it! That’s ALL the Bible DIRECTLY has to say about Eden. Everything else is a product of your mind. Rationalizations. Deductions. Justifications. Implications. There’s no two ways around it; most everything you imagined Eden to be is truly your imagination. (Unless you imagined items only in the above list). You might be 100% right in your extra-Biblical deductions, rationalizations, etc., or you might be 100% wrong. But, how would any person know what you say is true or false — since access to your mind is yours, and yours alone.
Eden is but one example. How this pertains to us TPBers in the here and now follows immediately.
.============================================== =
I’ve still been thinking about my Jew QOTD, and the epic shitfest that resulted. Almost 400 comments before comments were closed.
I’ve been thinking about Yojimbo. Whether he’s right or wrong is irrelevant at this point. But, one certainly must admit he’s very well read on the subject. He knows his stuff!
Then I started thinking about me. What do I really actually know about this Jewish conspiracy thing? Have I studied it … I mean real study with books, and classes, and notes, and homework, and research, and thinking, thinking, thinking. Hell no! If I had to write a paper on everything I know about Jews controlling the world I could start at 4PM and be done before 5PM. In other words, I really don’t know jack shit, if I’m 100% honest with myself.
Yet, I am able to fling shit with the best of them, acting like “I know” the real truth. I even feel obligated to fling shit about shit I don’t know shit about! Upon reflection, I find this odd, if not funny. But, don’t laugh too hard because I bet you do the same.
In how many things can a person be very proficient, let alone an expert. Ten things? I think that would be one helluva accomplishment, to know ten things very very well. Based on my observation I feel certain most people are expert at two or less things.
I truly believe there are a great many in America who are expert at nothing. Have you ever seen Mark Dice videos? Or, people of Walmart? Or, the roughly one third of Americans who can’t locate Kansas on a friggin map? Or smelled a Bernie supporter (they smell like free shit).
Yet, we folks here on TBP discuss and argue very many things; finance, the economy, food, religion, politics, military, sex with horses, foreign policy, tits, cars, castles, IQ, education, medicine, and my personal favorite, self gratification … just to name a few.
And, I wonder to myself; ‘How is it that we are all experts in so many diverse topics?” I consider this question in light of my premise above: that most people are experts in only a handful of areas.
I can only come to one logical conclusion. This includes even me. Perhaps, especially me. Only Admin is exempt. That is to say;
You people don’t know Jack Shit about most things you argue about. You’re just pulling it out your ass …. err, imagination.
This is useful information for when the next epic, or minor, Shitfest manifests itself. Knowing that the moran arguing with you is full of shit because his/her facts are solely a product of their imagination … well, that should calm down your own dumb ass. Your spirit ought to be filled with pity, compassion, and love knowing that you’re in the same damned boat as them. Love is all that ever remains.
I write as a True Expert on such things.
=========================================
Bonus Section: Garden of Eden
The imagination that Eden was perfect, wonderful, etc. is that upon its completion God said it was “good”. The majority thinking is that since God is good and perfect, that it is impossible for Him to create imperfection. Hence, Eden as a paradise.
1. If this is true, then where did all the bad stuff come from? Like mosquitos, which have killed more people than all of humanity’s wars combined. Flies. All the poisonous creatures. deadly viruses. Surely, they did not exist in the perfection of Eden. So, they arrived after the mankind’s fall. But, how? Was this evil created … by God? How could that be? Then are Creationists forced to admit the only other logical alternative … evolution?
2. Adam and Eve were banished to a place East of Eden. But, if God can only create perfection, then THAT place must also have been perfect. So, they were banished from a place of perfection …. to another place of perfection. Does this make any sense?
3. If Adam and Eve had not sinned they would have frolicked naked forever. That means Eden must have never gotten very cold. No snow, or hail, or ice. Or, excessively hot. In fact, there wasn’t any Weather Pattern at all except “Gooood Morning Eeeeden! Today’s temperature is a balmy 72 degrees and sunshine all day … just like the last fifteen hundred years in a row!” Geologically, this makes no sense whatsoever.
4. There was no death in Eden (what, Adam never stepped on an ant accidentally?). So, what about other natural events which kill people, such as; volcanoes, earthquakes, fires, floods, etc.? They must not have existed. But, since many of these events are necessary for Earth’s being, this again makes no geological sense.
5. How big was Eden? Based on the description of the lands surrounding the four rivers … small. Had the two nekkid people not sinned,.and thus stayed in Eden, it soon enough would have exploded in population. God would have had to expand Eden’s borders. This seems like poor urban planning … from a perfect Being.
6. The evidence supports the idea that God knew all along that this Eden thingy wasn’t gonna work out. Which begs the question; Why go through all this shit at all? After creating Adam and Eve he could have just stuck them in Philadelphia, and called it a day. And please don’t answer with “free will” because that’s illogical. Adam and Eve didn’t know the difference between right and wrong until AFTER they ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Free Will was never an option for them. Good luck!
Blessings ?
.
.
You forgot about rabbits. I am editing this now. I just wanted to be first.
Stucky, you are killing me here. You gotta know that when I started writing a few notes to guide a post-worthy response to your parental situation, I really hit a hard place here in Narnia. We lost the big white dog earlier this spring who kind of “replaced” several people we lost.
J-DAWG’s death coincided with a strange coincidental run-in I had with local police that taught me that being right and being righteous are two different things and the one who is righteous has handcuffs and a gun.
Since then, I tried to do exactly what you admit most of us have NOT. I tried to return to researching some things I suspected I need to understand as we move into this most chaotic of seasons: Winter of discontent. I discovered that true research occurs with one’s attention strictly on the topic at hand. I don’t know about you, but I focus best when alone with a notebook and a pile of books. That just doesn’t happen for me very much these days.
I see the complete change in the way we gather information. And that is about all any of us seem to do! Gather it. No one has any discernment skills… not even those who are supposed to be in charge of feeding us good information. The Media are the worst, in fact. How is it that this thing I am typing into right now (laptop) has changed our way of accessing and assessing information in such a short timespan? In “Empire of Liberty” (Wood, I think), I learned that Jefferson spent a few years studying the books in his library before he ever decided he would run for President. Books. I have a few of those relics. I really wish I had more of them now.
Honestly? I got scared when I saw the link between Masonic and Judaic philosophy. If you really look into the topics you suggest here through the filter of times we are living in, you might decide that Ms. Freud is right and it is time for every knee to bow. Or, like me, you might just start assessing your options and determine it is time to find you a nice little spot where you can raise a few rabbits and live off the fat of the land. I’m thinking South America looks lovely. Nice air and unpoisoned soils.
Sigh… I’ve been sad. I miss them all.
“I tried to return to researching …” —– Maggie
First, very nice thoughts. I read both posts twice.
Doing “research” is a strong indication we’re not experts in the topic being researched.
For example, I’ve written about a wide variety of things: cars, castles, various historical events, etc. I hardly knew diddley-squat about these things. Does Hardscrabble Farmer need to do research when he writes his awesome articles about life on the farm? Or, Llpoh about manufacturing or business? Or, Ditchner, about horse manure?
Of course, even experts need to do research. When Admin writes his incredible economics articles, surely he does not have all those facts/figures/charts at his fingertips. I get that. As I trust you get my point …. If I even have one.
Want to research more on Eden and have a better understanding? Read the books of the Apocrypha– in particular the books of Adam and Enoch. These books and the others of the Apocrypha had as much weight for thousands of years as other OT books but were not included in the modern Bible by order of the Catholic church.
I have read the books of Enoch ( The Ethiopic, Slavonic and Hebrew) and one really gets a greater picture of the time before man and during the ancient civilizations that built mammoth monuments and cities that we only see huge remnants of today.
I get the picture of Eden from the Bible and other ancient sources as a land that encompassed both the physical earth but also had incorporated the spiritual realm on the other side of the “veil.’ Picture 2 circles, with a tiny overlap–within the small area of overlap, God’s perfect nature resides and creates harmony where lion lays down with lamb, there is no physical death for the flesh etc…. this is supported by further study. I only mention this if you are truly interested.
Sometimes ignorance and shitslinging is a lot more fun though and one also has to ask, “why do I need to know this anyhow and does it even matter.”
This maybe the best, unadultered internet site for the Apocrypha and other ancient texts which “didn’t make the cut.’
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/
@Javelin – +1000!
Also don’t forget the Gnostic Valentinian view of the garden and the creationism (which personally resonates with me more than the traditional Christian myth).
This video explains the Sophia story.
Well, down here the Garden of Eden we ain’t, but I’d like to believe that we can give Mayberry, R.F.D. a run for its money!
Well – The original, was written in Hebrew, translated many times. What you read has been torn to shreds by errors in translation, willful misinterpretation, and sheer ignorance over thousands of years. In addition, Hebrew is a language based on two or three letter “roots” each of these roots contains hints and additions for understanding the inner meaning. Add to that, the fact that Hebrew, the original language of the Torah/”old testament” is a numerical language, so every word and phrase has a numerical root, that acts like a sort of ‘secret code” that unlocks many layers of hints, stories, allegories and layers of meanings. An example: The Snake, represents on one level, the desire for the physical world of pleasures, after the incident of the Apple, the outer urge, “Lept” down the throat of Adam and Eve and the previously external desire for the physical pleasures (easily controlled) became an inner DRIVE – the nature of our challenges and mission in this world changed, as a result of our actions. – All that is derived from the above and thousands of years of scholarship and learning, as well as Mesorah – traditions, stories and hints handed down from generation to generation of Jewish parent to child. A Jewish Orthodox scholar is raised from birth with all of this and a lifetime of continuous, disciplined learning.
Without all of this – The old testament, is like a toddler, picking up the advanced Physics class notes of a University professor, and trying to figure out Quantum Physics – Really.
Here is a help if you are honestly curious. Order a Stone Chumash from ArtScroll Mesorah Press. The English translation tries to capture some of the true multidimensional nature of the Hebrew to English translation, In addition, extensive notes fill in a tiny fraction of the important subtexts and background going on. – Approach this with an honest, open and questing mind. You will be amazed. Jews believe all Humans are G-d’s creation. G-d loves all his creation. Chosen people does not mean we are “better”. It means we were given a mission at Sinai, and we have a higher responsibility to all of humanity – to bring all Humanity to love of God ( the God of all humans) and to encourage all humans on planet earth to follow the 7 Noahide laws – look it up.
We have paid a very high price for taking on the mission, thousands of years of hatred and murder, perhaps one day, we will all fulfill our mission – Jews and all Humans – helping the creator “finish the job” of building a loving prosperous world, where the divine beauty of all creation is continually enhanced and built?
Are you up to the task?
Well THAT post from Moshe should help get this to 200.
YEAH, MAGGIE!! Are YOU up to the task??
I guess I’ll get up to speed on Noahide. Is that anything like Naugahyde? I heard nauga travel in packs and are a lot harder to kill than deer. Meat is tough, too.
Jesus and His apostle Paul have a very different take on what the future is for Israel and why. And your post fits their scenario to a T.
Blessings:-}
Seriously, Moshe, I hope you stick around for some genuine discussion. Try to avoid any posts by Yo.
I will try to NOT re-edit again, Stuck.
Well, am I ever glad I left this here below the first. BB is trying to save your heathen soul below, so I figure I will jump right in here for some comic relief.
When you really think about it, the Garden of Eden does indeed seem a bit limited on its paradisiacal qualities, especially since we both know how tender our private bits are around things that scratch or poke or bite or nick (pun intended). Obviously, the genitals needed covering.
Next, the whole snake/apple issue is out of perspective. Here’s poor Eve, hanging around paradise by “that” tree you can’t eat of and this Serpent hands her a consumable item and suggests she eat it, since it will make her like God. Now, can you really blame Eve for eating it? After all, wasn’t the MAN supposed to be there to protect and help her? He was off chatting with his buddy God, leaving her all alone with a freaking nasty Serpent. So, from that perspective you can see it was ALL Adam’s fault.
As to being an expert. We are all a bunch of stupid imbeciles and I’m talking inclusively so as to not be smug. There is almost nothing a person with two hands and a reasonably strong back can’t do. After moving out here to the land four years ago, living in a strange little shack on stilts heated by an odd assortment of electric heaters while Mennonites built my log home and now realizing we just may want to really go all out and visit South America…well, if I end up breathing my last breath FREE from the influence of Other People who think I owe them something, then so be it.
Okay… back to BB’s preaching.
Okay, now I’ve gone and edited BOTH. And this one allows me to speak first.
This is a dig at Stucky for his 6th point of knowledge of Eden: fouls in the air. Well, I think there were fowls in the air, but unless Eve was serving a lot of lentils and beans (and we wimmen know good and damn well she still hadda cook), there should not have been a lot of fouls in the air.
Somehow Stucky skipped over your mention of the fouls vs fowls. I was surprised at the Stucker with this huge error – it is not like a misspelling.
Actually, I get it. Pretty funny stuff, too!
It’s this DAMNED AUTOCORRECT feature and too small keyboard for my fat fingers on this tiny tablet that’s the culprit.
“Obviously, the genitals needed covering.”
——- Maggie
Hilarious! Ain’t THAT the truth. Some genitals NEED to be covered more than others. Looking at you bb, little fella☺
” … leaving her all alone with a freaking nasty Serpent. ”
——- Maggie
Not as “nasty” as most people believe.
First, the Hebrew word for Serpent means literally “shining one”.
Snakes play a prominent positive role in the OT. Even God said to Moses, “Make thee a fiery serpent”. Seraphim — which adorn the Ark Of The Covenant means “burning one” …. snakes, again …. on the Ark! The nasty Serpent who tricked Eve is described in Corinthians as “an angel of light”.
I believe we have solid evidence that it was a shining being, probably even an angel. Eve paid deference to it and realized it possessed superior knowledge. Would “it” be a mere snake, or a being of superior order?
You decide ……
OK, this is now officially a Bible study. Ha!
Good catch Stucky, the word is not “snake” and the original language which we interpret as serpent does indeed translate to “shining one.”
Also, there is no mention of an apple either. Study surmise that the fruit was a type that grew in large clusters as if plum-sized fruit that grew in groups like grapes. (try saying “grew in groups like grapes” a few times real fast)
Re-read the story more carefully. She gave it to Adam “who was with her.” That SOB watched the whole thing and did nothing at all to protect his wife.
Also, as St. Augustine pointed out, good and evil are qualities of things. They do not exist as things in themselves. They are like the color red. Something has to be red, even if it’s just light. Red does not exist by itself. Good and evil are used as nouns, as red is, but in reality, they are always adjectives. A good horse. An evil politico.
You cannot bit into an adjective. The juice will not run down your chin. You can only bite into a noun.
Therefore, St. Augustine concluded, we can know from the text itself that the story is allegorical. Not literal history. Which means that questions about mosquitoes, etc. are irrelevant.
Theology, like other subjects, requires knowledge and research. Logic that is ungrounded in facts will get you nowhere.
Nice summary.
You don’t know much but God tells you there was no Sin ,evil ,death or Spiritual death in the Garden of Eden until Satan showed up and Deceived Eve. There were no curses pronounced upon anyone or nature until sin was present in man as well as creation.As a result now we die ,life is hard (work ) ,and creation itself moans to be released from sin and corruption.Sin ,Evil ,Death , Curses upon creation , Satan and God’s sovereignty is all you need to know Stucky.
Looking back to the jist of the original essay we imagine Satan is the serpent in the garden. That is not in the text. Satan is not even a proper name. It’s more of a title meaning prosecuting attorney. I would suggest reading the books of Dr Michael S Hieser. (Misspelled the last name) who is an expert in ancient Hebrew and other ancient languages. If you’re interested and have the time to learn some very enlightening material.
And God’s plan of redemption was revealed to anyone who can read.You have so much going on those early chapters of Genesis it is easy to miss alot.
I am glad you are confessing your own sin and ignorance about the Bible ,God , Christ , Satan , Demonic realm Creation , History ,Math , Language , Culture and a million other things.Now tell Yumbo you are sorry.
Go to Genesis and cite for all of us where it talks about “Spiritual” death.
Good luck finding that!
You IMAGINED it. So, thanks for making my point! The main point of the article being that more often than not we all comment on things we are not expert in. And you, sir, Imagine stuff, esp the Bible, with vigor.
Bless your little truck driver heart, and ……..
Blessings to everyone else, also. Even, Ditchner (who I know will just loooove this thread!) ?
Actually that point is not imagined. There are dozens of other references throughout the Bible that discuss the ramifications of man’s disobedience, the fall of man and the introduction and effects of sin.
Genesis doesn’t mention spiritual death but it is mentioned as a primary theme throughout as an affect of Adam/Eve’s original sin and fall from grace……..
Thanks Reverend Shitslinger for the Sunday morning biblical porridge. I can skip Mass now, with a clear conscience , and head straight for the bar.
What Bible study?
The Adam and Eve story in the beginning of the article was just an example (I could have used countless others) of how many facts and opinions are truly imagined. (Sorry for repeating that essential point.)
Then I tied it into our Shitfest.
OK, maybe the Bonus Section could be construed as a Bible Study — but, it would be a poor one. I simply asked some questions and made observations which I believe few people — believers and their counterparts — ever consider. I certainly didn’t during my “believing” decades.
Thanks Reverend Shitslinger for the Sunday morning biblical porridge. I can skip Mass now, with a clear conscience , and head straight for the bar. With Enlightenment, we begin a new day.
I heard you the first time.
Now I’m Anonymous, the Enlightenment was so deep, I no longer exist
I have the same effect on myself.
“….. creation itself moans to be released from sin and corruption.Sin ,Evil ,Death , Curses upon creation , Satan and God’s sovereignty is all you need to know Stucky.
———- bb
Eureka!! I am SAVED! Thank you for answering ALL my questions. Why ….. it’s so simple even a cave man can see it. /sarcasm
You sure you don’t actually have a brain blockage?
Just kidding. Did you see my post where I urged you to change your lifestyle (eat better, exercise more) and, I wished you well? I think it was in a Muck About thread.
Great question, especially considering the past week.
Things have been close to perfect up here, the weather clear and calm, the tourists all gone back to wherever they came from and it has been quiet. There are moments when the Sun is just so, the light diffuse, long rows of clouds rolling across the sky right to left and the colors of the farm- the barn red, the scarlet of the maple leaves, the rust colored heifers standing in the last of the green grass, the blue smoke of apple wood drifting up through the trees around the smokehouse- appear to have some message in them.
Our oldest cow is on her way out, ditto the old boar and it is the first time since we’ve lived here that mortality has become something present and real. Slaughter has never struck me as death, but as a harvest whereas losing a beloved breeding animal to age has something of a familiarity to it.
What do we ever know? The things we experience filtered through our own personal lens, the visual, the visceral and the spiritual aspects all tied up into a single moment of presence, of witness. And so we either learn from these moments, look for the connections and the patterns that make them part of the greater fabric of life, or we choose not to.
Knowing is for each of us to decide for ourselves, I suppose. I try not to repeat mistakes, not to be careless or to do harm either through ignorance or inaction, but also to lend my hands to the bigger process that works ceaselessly around us whether we see it or not, whether it benefits us in the short term or someone else who we will never know a hundred years from now because that is all we can do.
I wonder if you see how well connected this post is to all the other pieces that went before it this week- the number 23, Muck’s friend dying, FM’s hunt with his son, the nurse and the cop- what do all these things have in common? Where does it all go and where did it all come from?
Thanks again.
And then you sent me on the Fibonacci path.
Lovely writing, as always.
And your closing question is one worth pondering at length.
Frankly, I’m not sure it can be answered. But, isn’t that true of most great questions? The joy comes not in necessarily finding the answers, but reveling in the wonders we discover by simply making the journey.
It’s always amusing to see people get dumb-struck by THE BIBLE… as if it’s some sort of authority. Talk about shit-throwing monkeys; seems we haven’t really progressed very much in our near million year history.
The truth is there was a place that we’ve subsequently termed ‘the garden of eden’. And the real story is so much more fascinating than the bullshit thrown together by an enslaved people (during the Babylonian captivity) we subsequently call the jews. But, it’s so much more fun to wallow in myth than face reality, so, the real story will probably remain for a select few while the rest of the world blows itself up.
A man can read the Bible, be able to recite it backwards and forwards and even in its original languages, quote scripture and verse at the drop of a hat, and still never understand what it says.
To understand it is more than to simply know it, and it takes the Holy Spirit in your heart along with a sincere and passionate desire to understand what is being said to be able to do that.
Geeze Stucky you cut me off at the knees in my ongoing effort to trigger Ditchner and the others with the bible myths, er stories. Anyways seeing as I like you I will endeavour to play ball and carry on.
The things I do to be an honest law abiding shit monkey…
It does help that it is the beginning of another week. Seven moar days honouring our pagan Lords. So channeling the guidance of the ever lasting God here it goes.
Yeah there does seem to be a lot of folks talking out of their ass. But isn’t that why God have us all one of those. Shitting on someone else has been a bloodsport and pastime since, well since Eden.
And since this is all aboot Eden whats up with Adam. Methinks he was a pussy. Running around nekked in that garden. What in the hell was wrong with that Guy! He should have kept Eve busy by banging her day and night behind the rocks and stumps when God wasnt looking…. But did he. Nope.. and he didn’t even have to worry about condoms and little basterds. Looooser! He had a just stuck to plan she would not have had time to talk to snakes and bite apples. Instead he ended up kicked out of paradise with a women barefoot and pregnant, living in sin with her and the spawn for around a 1000 years.
A millenium of nagging.
A hell on earth.
So it was his fault that she had a wavering eye.
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Look ma! No nips.. and Adam scratching his head.
Whatta dolt!
Adam wasted that rib when he should have been giving her the shaft.
Great stuff!! And you didn’t mention Odin once. You are a scholar and a gentleman.
You said Adam “should have kept Eve busy by banging her day and night behind the rocks and stumps when God wasnt looking…. ”
Wow. You just planted a brand new thought in my mind. — What if the snake was ADAM’S snake? If Adam’s Weenie did the talkin’, well, that changes everything …..
Adam’s snake was probably NOT circumcised. Just saying.
And as for behind the rocks and bushes, RiNS? Adam probably couldn’t keep up with Eve and that may be why she was off flirting with that Serpent feller.
Yeah never really thought about that when I was writing it but you could be on to something. Maybe the serpent was Adam’s weenie. I mean God created everything including boners. Maybe it got lost in translation from Aramaic to English…..
So I decide to put on my expert’s cap in Ancient Religion. Who knew eh!
Type and google “snake in aramaic”
This is what I get…
Turns out the truth’s truth is stranger than fiction’s fiction.
RiNS
Triggering Ditcher should be the least of worries. Is there anything easier in life? I think not.
He’s probably in church right this very moment praying for our damned (literally) souls. And when the time comes to shout out “hallelujahs” he will instead sing a stinging rebuke, “FukStuck!” and “FukRiNS!”, for a scorpion can only and always be a scorpion.
RiNtiNtiNydicK is hyperventilating.
1. That painting you offer is racist, what proof do you have they were blond except Anglin’s view that white is perfection and white woman the peak of perfection?
2. Since God presented the woman to Adam, that basically seals the deal. Ain’t no living in sin of that kind, just the original sin of disobedience.
3. Assuming that everything God makes has to be perfect in beauty is an idea that probably originated with Rousseau who was inspired and engaged in building up the Native American myth of the noble savage, the egalitarian ideal of Indian life.
4. Lust is mentioned a bit later in the story when the sons of god went after the daughters of man. Before that time, I imagine Adam and Eve looked like Ma and Pa Kettle, not much there to inspire sexual cravings. They managed to have two boys and only after one died did Adam and Eve hook up to have another kid.
6. Any number you throw out assumes there is a number that precedes it. The creation story is necessitated by the present. The garden of Eden requires a creator and that creator requires a purpose.
7. To look backwards as Rousseau does by imagining with his limited imagination a perfect god with perfect intentions and imagining a perfect egalitarian society is to miss the point of history. The point of man is to replace the legions of angels that rebelled in heaven. That is the root of Satan’s enmity towards man.
8. God is looking for a few good men (the term includes women). The majority of men; racists, neo-Nazis, liberals, free shitters, Americans, Jews and some Russians are going to hell, sorry.
Are you one of those few good men, Mr. Chen?
I care very little, however, if I am judged by you or by any human court.
In fact, I do not even judge myself.
My conscience is clear, but that does not vindicate me.
It is the Lord who judges me.…
We have only judged you positively, Mr. Chen. We, as you, leave that to the almighty to inform us whether we have made a mistake in doing so.
We were simply curious of your self appraisal in the equation/foundation you present with confidence to its truthfulness.
There are many who walk this world viewing the truth as being racist and sexist. Since God is the source of truth, they use their interpretation of what should be versus what is as confirmation of their goodness in turning away from God. It is quite the challenge.
1. If you don’t have confidence in what you write, of what value is it?
2. The comment on racism is rooted in the present dialog, it is ongoing and it has triggered many to the exclusion of more important matters.
3. People can be triggered by delusions; tulips, cryptocurrencies, the belief that separating the races will lead to a garden of Eden where everything is hunky-dory.
4. Turning away from god cannot be good, it can only be evil. A person cannot follow the evil one with a pure heart or good thoughts, that would be a Faustian delusion. OTOH, Paul wishes he could make such a deal with god; sacrifice himself to save his brothers, unbelievers that they are.
Your lack of ignernce is showing again.
1) Testing ideas and understandings as they develop via open dialog is of incredibly high value.
Etc.) We feel there is a great deal of mutual agreement on a more appropriate way forward for all of these demographics which are struggling to blend together into the Eden that Western Nations were promised.
Perhaps you would be willing to help encourage all non-white demographics to abdicate all identity with their historical demographic when they enter the United States or other western nations. The white demographics would also have to revoke theirs.
Would you be willing to be another nada like the rest of us, only identifying as your governmental symbol, and never again identify with your historical demographic in the same way we at SDS have been doing for many decades? To never again have a club or organization oriented around that historical identity or working on behalf of that identity’s interests?
You seem to be describing a prison program, at least a prisoner of the mind. Adopting a prisoner number in place of a name, relinquishing any vestige of individual identity; familial history, cultural background, religious beliefs, values, principals and gender preferences. Do you get a free uniform and boots with this program?
EC
Geeze talk aboot a wet blanket..
As for the pwnage you hurled my way I am still feeling the burn. Time, walls and distance cannot lesson my pain. As for Anglin you have him all wrong. Rumour has it that he is actually an illegal Mexican immigrant named Over El Bordero, likes mariachi bands and votes democrat.
As for Eve. I have to agree. . I am no expert but nice legs, shame about the face.
So, God is kind of like the US Marines, eh? Semper Fi EC
“…facts and opinions are truly imagined…”
Yesterday, I gave a ‘fact’ to a female Registered Democrat – she became stone-faced, but could not respond to offset my fact.
Fact: Obama financially fucked the poor and middle-class with his Financial Repression policy, ZIRP, and Asset Inflation (this was a big goose for the wealthy and especially the mega-corporations).
Note: I am still amazed that politics will completely shut off any brain thought processes.
Yes, koko but your thought process is frozen in time. Didn’t Uncle Ronnie set us on this path of financial destruction with his voodoo economics?
No sin in Eden ,no sin in man .Adam and Eve were sin less .The moment Eve committed sin both her and Adam were Alienate from God. They try to hide ,they were ashame of themselves , their nakedness ,they were afraid of God.This is Spiritual death. I didn’t Imagine anything . It’s right there for anyone who will take the time to read.
Your canned responses are predictable and b-o-r-i-n-g.
Don’t you know that Boring is the Original Sin?
Can’t you find something original to say? You sound like a preprogrammed robot droning on endlessly in a tight loop. If you can’t be original, can you at least recite the same old stuff in a more interesting manner?
Oh, get a spell checker while you’re at it.
Eve was down at the river washing after the original sin. God looked down & said… “Oh no. I’ll never get that smell out of the fish.”
I stay away for awhile and come back to this. Much is based on faith. Man’s ability to interpret God is of course flawed. Begone Satan!(Stucky)
Speaking of “begone” ….
“Go and do likewise.” — Luke 10:37
Or, go suck Diseased Donkey Dick.
Your choice.
Blessings 😉
Stories and fabels to enforce pointless ritual and mindless superstition . It’s the only thing that separates us from the animals .
You must have noticed that many of the religious organizations faiths or factions support a passive approach from the masses towards those that do wrong by you . Proving you are the better person etc …
Your life sucks but it’s going to be great when you die . The man in the sky promises you that ??? Sure OK ??
Islam slaughters its way on the scene but we must show love and compassion in response to their violent aggressive actions so we can go back to Eden ??? Meanwhile the Islamic zeolites believe they are cutting slashing killing and burning their way to heaven ???
It all sounds like a rather intricate web of imaginary man made foolishness . Has anyone seen the Lego Bible now there is a screwed up twist , it’s not for little children to read at bedtime unless you want them to become dillusional .
Please believe what you feel comfortable with concerning creation and eternity but don’t ram it down people’s throats . Spiritually I feel certain something is up just not sure what . Maybe if we all try to do good works because it brings some one else pleasure it will please you also someplace no one touches inside you but you .
There are many paths in this life to God , May yours not be to difficult ! “GOOD LUCK”
when logical, not magical thinking is applied to the Bible, different beliefs may ensue.
God(s) were advanced beings from off-world, homo sapiens was genetically tampered with, society has been boosted with provided technology, with the reason being a positive spin on the prime directive (see Roddenberry).
the flood of Noah was a rapid glacial melt worldwide, the virgin birth was simple artificial insemination, Daniel, aka David Blaine, in the Lion’s den a magic trick for the king, just as a current magician walks on water in the Thames as well.
the Hebrews in the Sinai were air-dropped survival supplies by silent helicopters, the Red Sea parted as a result of low water levels and high winds that suddenly dissipated when the Egyptians got their chariots stuck in the muck, the walls of Jericho were leveled by advanced sound technology instead of a trumpet, and Ezekiel really did see a wheel “way up in the middle of the air.”
etc.
One day I re-read Genesis, chapter 1, verse26, saying “Let US make man in OUR image, the light suddenly switched on……
Wild man, I never read that verse. Maybe you are mixing verses. Where is the celestial light switch you imply?
WTF is a muslim zeolite?
ze·o·lite
ˈzēəˌlīt/
noun
plural noun: zeolites
any of a large group of minerals consisting of hydrated aluminosilicates of sodium, potassium, calcium, and barium. They can be readily dehydrated and rehydrated, and are used as cation exchangers and molecular sieves.
Miles- Zeolite is a useful mineral. It can actually save you from radiation and was used to absorb radiation at Chernobyl.
Were they muslim or Russian orthodox zeolites?
Sorry spell check and I was a mechanic not a college grad with a perfect command of the English language
It was a good comment BG, just took me a few minutes to figure out what I think you meant. I was a mechanic too & am far from perfect.
The Lego Bible is awesome in the sense that it is impeccable. Anyone who takes issue with it must take issue with the source.
Lego ???
http://www.thebricktestament.com/
Illustrated bibles take a lot away from the real thing.
Illustrations are for people who can’t read technical manuals SMSGT Pangloss
Checklists are for those who cannot interpret instructions.
How are you today EC?
Maggie, it is not allowed to modify Panglossian dictums.
Everybody needs a checklist.
Fine. I refuse to use checklists ever again.
I only know two things about this.
1. The pictures of Adam and Eve show them with belly buttons. How is this possible?
2. When Adam was kicked out of the Garden of Eden, he promised that he would turn over a new leaf.
Dave, the paintings are not part of the bible.
Adam and Eve were covered with bearskins not fig leaves.
El Ciber, then all the depictions were done by stupid people. And how did you determine they were covered with bearskins?
Dave- El came up with the bearskins the same way you came up with the fig leaves. I say they were buck nekkid, so who is right? The snake knew that down the road in time that Adam and Eve being ashamed of their birthday suits would open up the entire fashion industry. Maybe that snake knew that being exiled from the garden would be cause for them to need housing from the elements which was the beginning of the whole real estate boom. We now have 7 billion here to be dazzled by the marketing ploy of the snake.
And the LORD God made clothing from animal skins for Adam and his wife.
EC-OK , so you have scripture to back up your point BUT were those words written by man? AHhhaaaaa!
El Ciber: So, you take the bible literally? Adam got married? Who did the ceremony, the snake? Explain how an ark could be built that was about 800 feet long, contained Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives, two of every animal in existence at that time, suffered 40 days and 40 night of rain and remained afloat for a year. The shit alone from those animals would have sunk the boat in about three weeks.
Dave,
1. I copied and pasted the verse for you, it says ‘wife’. Have you not heard folks say they got married in front of god? Isn’t that the definition of a common law marriage?
2. Stucky has covered all those questions in his Ark article
3. The feed got converted to manure, the law of conservation says you can’t create nor destroy matter. The ark did not weigh more, so it wasn’t sunk only stunk.
Bearskins and chigger bites. And let’s not even discuss the lack of Toilet Paper. You know I gotta have my Toilet Paper.
a bidet is much more civilized.
Well, excuse us rednecks, Mr. Bidet Bubbles
Now that’s funny Maggie…….holy shit…….they didn’t have toilet paper!
They had bunnies.
A bear was pinching a loaf in the woods while a rabbit watched. The bear asked the rabbit, “Does shit stick to your fur?” The rabbit said that it didn’t, so the bear picked up the rabbit & wiped with it.
Point taken, Stucky. However, I feel like the closer we stumble to the Truth of a thing, the harder it is to stand upright and grasp it.
Did not Adam and Eve show that they had free will by choosing to disobey God. They were not forced to eat of the tree.
That isn’t free will anymore than you choosing to buy a particular brand is proof of your ‘free will’. You were induced by advertising, the same advertising lies induced Eve to break the rule.
This is an inadequate comparison, Mr. Chen. A more appropriate comparison would be being presented with two products (or destinations if you wish) and then making a decision. In this circumstance there are competing inducements the individual is using their free will to collapse the waveform upon.
Unless it is your assertion that you yourself are unable to resist the inducement of snake oil salesmen and are not responsible for your decisions and actions.
If that is the case, please state so clearly so we all can adjust future interactions accordingly and re-review your contributions on TBP in such a light.
Your barking up the wrong tree if you think I will be jumping through hoops in hopes of gaining your approval.
Go see YoBo, a man who so dearly loves approval that he will do anything for Anglin in order to have his approval.
Is you declining to take a bite of our question your choice or something we’ve induced you to do?
At that point they do not know right from wrong, children are excused from many errors due to this situation.
It’s possible that the sin escalated when Adam denied responsibility and blamed Eve who in turn denied responsibility and blamed the snake.
The snake lost his appendages, Eve got the curse and Adam had to work for his food, no more free shit.
Adam did not blame Eve. Nor did she blame the serpent. They told the story exactly as it happened. Read it and you will see this. They told God exactly what happened. The truth.
Blessings:-}
Adam didn’t blame Eve cause Eve is always right. Reason being is women are always right and if he wanted any tail he had to get with “the” plan.
Sez so in ma bible.
Happy Moonday,
RiNS
Wow. Great post, Stucky.
When you asked the questions – what are we truly expert/good at – I immediately figured one or two things and even then???
I have a degree with a major in History and a Psych minor. I read people who post here regularly who have more knowledge on the topics (admittedly, they are very broad) than I do so for years I have figured it is better to keep my mouth shut and listen than to fling shit in that arena. I learn here more than I contribute, maybe that’s why I tend to write about hunting and stuff because it’s what I do and it’s what I know better than most things.
Plus my memory for details is shit. I am good at seeing patterns and spotting bullshit, trends and predicting outcomes but poor with remembering dates and names. I read a lot and retain very little in terms of those details but remember lessons and where to find the details if I need them. Not sure why my brain operates this way – it just does. Maybe it’s full? I likely need a memory upgrade. I should probably hit Best Buy and see if they have one for me.
You write:
“Then are Creationists forced to admit the only other logical alternative … evolution?”
Question – why are there only two options?
Maybe Eden is metaphorical? Perhaps it was a lab and the reason for no overpopulation is that it was a controlled environment. Moreover, if Adam and Eve had no concept of sin then they likely were not aroused by one another’s nakedness and therefore not reproducing. Just a thought. I’ve read the bible twice but again I’ll admit I do not retain a lot of details. I have no recollection of God as a biochemist raising people and critters in a petri dish then setting them free in a controlled environment. I’d have to read again for clarification but there are things to do this AM…
FM, that memory upgrade is called a smart phone. You will be able to look up information and dates on the spot.
Back then, monks used to spend hours calculating the value of pi to one hundred decimal places, what a waste, give them a calculator. Doc Pangloss
You are correct. There are more options. Instead of “0nly” a better choice would have been “most likely”.
I approve of giraffe hunting!
Ok, :-).
Quite a few of the people I spend time with in meat space don’t hunt, many don’t even own guns truth be told. We get along just fine. Live and let live. A good percentage of the population is reasonably good at doing that. It’s the marginal wack jobs (that, unfortunately, get the most air time) that are not. I write a lot of what I do for their benefit. For some reason, I find joy in their outrage. That’s probably a little twisted but hey, we all have our flaws, right?
Hunting local deer for food is one thing. WTF would you need to get on a plane to go hunt giraffe or wildebeest on another continent? That is one fucked-up way of life, imo.
But it squares with the “breaking down the energy gradients at all costs” theory. Francis Marion and his family (like the Trumps) have no free will, but are bound to seek the maximum expenditure of energy for the most minimal return.
In your opinion.
Actually, I’d argue that it is completely an act of free will simply because “I don’t have to do it”. But then many of the things we do in this life we “don’t have to do”. We do most things for our own reasons probably based on the particular lense we view the world through.
Based on that it sort of makes one wonder who died and made you king that you can decide for me or others what my ‘return’ on the way I live my life is? You don’t shit about ‘return’. All people like you are able to do is decide for others how they should live. Puts you right in the same category as most leftists and the rest of their pet ideologies.
In my experience what bothers people like you the most is that you can’t control what I do. What likely bothers you, even more, is that I don’t give a flying fuck what you think about me or my family.
Go live your life the way you want to. I’m going to do the same.
FM,
I don’t get the down thumbs.
I love your wilderness exploration stories.
Especially I enjoy reading about your doing
many activities with your son. The adventure and time you share with your son is a wonderful gift to him. Last, I’m
sure your wife is very pleased and proud
of both of you.
My Mr. has taken the boys here and there
around the country here, and to Europe.
I am so glad he made those trips and was
generous and good to the boys.
Suzanna
Hi Suzanna,
Thanks for your comment. I wouldn’t change a thing about my life to satisfy the Chubby Bubbles of the world (or anyone else for that matter) for one micro second. On the other hand, I do appreciate it when they comment (thumbs up or down I don’t think about too much – life is not a popularity contest) as it gives me things to think about. Like the concept of ‘return’ for example. I think if Chubby knew what ‘return’ there was on what I do versus what supposed ‘eco tourists’ do he might not like the data. What he hasn’t figured out is that for people like me the most important ‘return’ is not numerical in nature anyway. Maybe I’ll write something about it…. with lots of pictures. Just for Chubby.
Chubby Bunny just doesn’t have enough gratitude for the true meaning of gratitude.
Francis Marion: “In my experience what bothers people like you the most is that you can’t control what I do. What likely bothers you, even more, is that I don’t give a flying fuck what you think about me or my family. Go live your life the way you want to. I’m going to do the same.”
Well said and right on the money sir!
FM said:
“Maybe Eden is metaphorical? Perhaps it was a lab and the reason for no overpopulation is that it was a controlled environment.”
In 1976 a friend let me read a book of his “Tetrasomy Two”, a sci-fi novel whose ultimate premise is that the earth and all of the planets around other stars are nothing more than Petri dishes of a far more advanced race.
I know I have given away the ultimate spoiler, but it’s a great read if you can find it. FM was “right on”with his question.
Since I was probably dragged to more revival meetings as a young child than any of you monkeys can imagine, I will tell you that the Garden of Eden story is NOT a story at all. It is an archetype.
Now, if you will IGNORE Stucky’s subliminal plant that it could not possibly be true, so therefore you have to imagine it is true…
Try this: Once upon a time, the Creator decided to create companions to share the Genderfree Guardian of the Universe’s brilliance. He made a man, Adam and a woman, Eve (out of extra parts, apparently), and then proceeded to start telling them what they could and could not do. Note that being ambiguous by creating a thing and denying that thing is what people in charge do first. The fact that a thing is denied, lest you surely die, is the first clue that your death is imminent.
I have never known ANYONE who would not open Pandora’s Box to take a peek.
How about you?
Open it on acid and what comes out will amaze you once you return to the space-time continuum.
That’s because you queried women. Women identify with cats because they are just as curious. Women are a menace
You believe YOU would find a way to know what was inside without technically opening it. You would try to CHEAT.
That is manthinking and I will have to file a complaint. (TBP is attracting a better bunch of Lady STMs in training for the next major shitfest.)
I wouldn’t Maggie,
Especially if there was an evil in that box, and I
I knew that. Yikes!
Susanna, or Suzanna, or Suzzanna…I wonder if I could resist? I suppose if it were ONLY evil inside the box, I wouldn’t need to see. But, of course, the real choice is whether you or I could resist the temptation to see the wonderful things inside the box or could we dismiss easily an opportunity to gain insight into both good and evil and “be like gods.”
Let’s say I’m Eve and I’ve been enjoying my time here in the Garden so far. Adam is, by far, the best looking guy on this or any block and the animals are all well tended and cared for by cherubim. Adam gathers the groceries and I turn it into some interesting meals: we are a match made in heaven. There are some creature comfort issues, but we’ve only been here a few weeks (but who is keeping time?) and Adam has been talking to the Creator, whom I call Pop I Yam, about some lifestyle upgrades. I’m really, really wanting a flush toilet, in a place with both privacy and running water. Ah, to have that would be like having a throne!
I don’t have a lot of complaints, since there are some really wonderful animals playing amongst the fruit bearing vines and trees. The rabbits are fat and easy to catch. I love to just pick every meal ripe from the garden. I don’t know what we will do if the weather changes, but… that is worry and the first few days here, I didn’t have any worry.
But, there is this tree on which grows forbidden fruit. Forbidden. Just the thought of it makes me want to sniff it to see if I can smell the bad stuff. Perhaps Pop I Yam wouldn’t mind if I just wander over there and see what I can smell. After all, smelling isn’t EATING, is it? So, I started to fret about the Forbidden Fruit and I taught myself to worry.
So while Pop and Adam took off to check the vineyards and talk about another day in Paradise, I decided to just walk the other way and see what I could smell. Now, I’ll admit there really was NOT a lot of low-hanging fruit on that tree and I felt kind of silly climbing up the branches bare-ass naked to SMELL the fruit, but having gone to all that trouble, I wasn’t going to leave without a good look at and smell of that forbidden fruit. I would have just smelled it and left, really, if that Serpent hadn’t scared the crap out of me and tricked me into eating the forbidden fruit. The biggest problem with a evil demonic fallen angel in your garden is you never know when they are going to catch you unawares. Well, it was one of THOSE days in paradise and I reacted like a kid who’d just gotten caught stealing candy in a candy store.
By the time I regained my composure, I’d not only eaten the fruit but a lot of OTHER stuff may or may not have happened what did you hear? I got news for you: If you are gonna make a fruit Forbidden and then wager all of humanity’s immortality on its consumption, make it taste like the sumptuous fruit I ate that not only made me immediately feel a blissful peace but simultaneously made me shiver and tremble in delight, like a schoolgirl. The Forbidden fruit was the best I ever had. Bar none. Before I could even shake the enormous rush that accompanied the insight into understanding good and evil, Adam showed up and I was so flustered, I figured I’d better get him to taste it so that if Pop was gonna punish somebody, at least I wouldn’t be alone. After all, Adam’s my helpmeet, right? He wouldn’t have wanted me to be the only one who can tell good from evil and he wouldn’t want me to suffer alone. Would he? I thought not, but that was while I was still a little juiced from the Forbidden fruit.
So, it really threw me for a loop when Adam blamed me, even though he was right… still, as his wife I expected him to defend me. I don’t hold it against him though, since I understood both the good and evil I was visiting on my beloved when I fed him the fruit. You see, I really did get TRICKED by the Serpent. (OUT OF EVE character.)
What happened at the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is something that you can debate from now to the last possible second. And then, whether it was all part of the Plan. But, for me, and perhaps a few other women who grasp the underlying disdain Paul (of Biblical fame) had for women, as a “daughter of Eve”, I feel great sorrow for Eve. She bears the burden having let the serpent trick her and losing the trust of her mate, but she also suffers the anguished guilt of being mother of the first murderer AND the first slain son. To say Eve had a dysfunctional family kind of puts it mildly.
I’ve always thought of Genesis as the “Book about Sibling Rivalry” and it shouldn’t take you long to realize just how many brothers and sisters betraying each other and selling each other into slavery and bondage there really are in that little tome. So, having thought about everything I know for a couple of days, most of which is imagined, I wonder if Paradise through Eve’s eyes doesn’t seem to be all that wonderful at all. I know, I know… she had another one and then those two married wimmen from SCREECHING HALT… don’t go there.
Comment if you want… just some thoughts on a hot, humid Labor Day.
Most stories are reworked versions of earlier stories. Somebody said the bible is a series of stories on the same theme. It also works out that it ends as it begins, it works its way from A to Z and then from Z to A. The OT and NT are mirror images of each other.
History, recorded and unrecorded, is cyclical. If it was depicted on a graph it would look like a sine wave. The bible explains it thus: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”
I also have some issues with Paul, a nuisance and a plague on the local citizenry for many years, Then he is “saved” and proceeds to lay out the new rules and regulations for his hapless fellow citizens. Almost as bad as an ex-smoker Tobacco Nazi.
Robert (QSLV)
My battery is at 5%.
I’ll be back in a few hours to deal with you curs.
Well , be sure to answer my question above. i’ll just add it here…
Would you have opened Pandora’s Box knowing the evil within could not be recontained?
Evil or not is beside the point for me. Simply saying “Don’t open the box” … WOULD have resulted in me opening the box. It’s how I roll.
BTW, movie on HBO called ‘The Box’. Simple plot: a stranger drops off a box — the young couple will get a million dollars if they open the box — just one hitch, if they open it, someone in the world they don’t know WILL DIE. It was a pretty good movie.
A variation of The Monkey’s Paw
You don’t have an AC charger to keep you going on that device? (cell phone, tablet, whatever you are using).
everything I see is a reflection of me, as the outside world does not exist without in internal reference.
everything I know is also a reference to everything I see, touch or hear, which is meaningless unless it was experienced, and assigned to a piece of previous knowledge.
with that disclaimer said:
The garden of Eden is a allegory for the innocence of child hood, and the apple is an allegory for the loss if that innocence.
the church would love the flock to remain children, and provide tithes so that the bishop can live in a tax free mansion, and not have to work the fields.
If the flock were able to understand that religion is indeed a racket, the bishop or priest would have to get a job, and work like the rest of us.
P.S. the apple is also an allegory for any kind of psychotropic substances that will alter ones consciousness, and remove the veil of ignorance the church and state require to thrive.
If you’ve not read it, you might enjoy this:
the story of Eden is simply an allegorical oral moral code passed down from a more sage predecessor, possibly even creator(s) or meddlers who knew one thing – “these creatures are gonna fuck this place up without us, but we gotta go, so lets leave them some stories with moral meaning, and maybe they’ll figure it out for themselves. I(We) know I’m tired of trying.” and guess what?….
the essence of it is “this is a cool planet you’ve got here, animals and plants to sustain you, beauty, sex, children, sunsets, cool clean water, fresh air, art, music, literature and all you need forever. mostly it will take care of itself, just don’t turn it into a shithole on purpose.”
It’s a lot more valuable than just that.
I like Sitchin.
My pastor told this story one time:
There is a large fine multistory hotel on the beach in Galveston. Rooms have great views of the Gulf, of course. One day a guest, a fellow with a brilliant mind, decided he would try fishing from his balcony. As he snapped his line back to begin his cast, the weights on the line broke the large window behind him.
Horrified at the thought that this pastime might occur to other guests, the management put up signs forbidding fishing from balconies. What do you think happened? Suddenly there was a rash of balcony-fishing and more broken windows. The manager rightly decided to remove those signs, and things then returned to normal.
Deep within us all is a hunger to taste forbidden fruit, and if we pay attention we learn it carries consequences that are not in our best interests (except for possibly gaining some wisdom about how life really works). I don’t have to imagine this; it is evident in everyday life at many levels. In the Eden story, it is fascinating that the humans carry this tendency before they succumb to temptation. This is a big mystery, a problem great minds have wrestled with for millennia. It always leads to “why does God allow evil?”
The humans were unified with God before the Fall. Once it occurred, the great burden of pride and SELF-consciousness was upon them. Thus their nakedness became an issue and they needed to hide themselves. Their guilt made them fearful of God, feeling the need to hide from him. Their unity with each other was also broken as they proceeded to try to blame each other for their decisions. I don’t need to imagine the results of these events. I see them clearly in my own life and in the whole wide world. Serious Christians understand the need to restore the Self to God and spend their lifetimes learning to resist the forbidden fruits that continue to separate. Acknowledging the sacrifice of Christ in this endeavor is essential. It requires humility, even a little bit. It’s as though each must reverse the pride visited upon us in that garden.
So yes, Stucky, much about the Eden story must be imaginative, but the lessons about the nature of mankind and the source of our ruined creation where mosquitoes bite us are quite real.
So here’s the true parable of Eden…
It has nothing to do with gender wronging gender or the fact most of us look better dressed.
When the one partook of the forbidden fruit the other waited for a response from God. When nothing happened immediately upon the first sinner, the other demanded of the sinner, ” Give me my fair share”. It was then that God banished them.
Morale of the story is fifty percent of the population can successfully game the system. But when one hundred percent do, church is out.
I think that’s the first time I’ve seen the 50-50 Fair Share Approach (early Free Shit Army perhaps?) Interesting… Adam was just waiting to see if Eve exploded until he stepped up on his own? “Well, you know if I didn’t have to go do the planning for the next Phase of Paradise with Yahweh, I could sneak off down there to taste the fruit myself, but somebody has to walk the walk.”
Mikhail Bakunin, wrote that into the midst of the Garden of Eden “steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity.”
You shall be as Gods.
Bakunin gets a mention here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6w9tupizJk
Satan sets us free!!
Interesting thought, to say the least.
Much like Judas set Jesus free to accomplish his own ultimate goal … to die.
Stucky, I believe that most everything we know is not imagined, it is influenced. When I visualize Eden it is a mosaic constructed from years of propaganda. Not one single aspect of my Eden came from my imagination.
I completely agree with the propaganda part.
However, it is hard for me to believe that once the propaganda (someone ELSES imaginations) has been introduced in whatever quantity — that your OWN imagination would just sit idle without adding to it. That doesn’t seem to me how minds work.
Stucky , Seems like most want to find someway of agreeing with you.The garden of Eden is an allegory or some other nonsense . It’s amazing how many people call God a liar without realizing it.You are not going to change my mind cause I take the Bible at face value. I’m not going to change your mind cause you want something more but nothing else will satisfy .” Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth “
ANyone who takes anything “at face value” is an idiot.
bb
So, you mock allegory. OK … even though Jesus taught with parables.
You take things at “face value”. Even if that “value” is ridiculous — like when Moses’ outstretched arms kept the sun standing still? Fine, you take things literally. I think of literalists as those way to damn lazy to think things through. A perfectly description of you.
I never once tried to change your mind, nor that of anyone else. I am but a mere Presenter, not a Proselytizer.
YOU are always coming to the knowledge of truth, but without ever learning. That’s a helluva feat.
Stuck – they claim (the royal they, whoever they are) that it takes around 10,000 hours of practice/work/experience to become expert at something, so few of us are expert at many things. However, the crossover points are many, depending on the fields you enter.
For me, I am expert in manufacturing and in running a business. There are many crossover points – finance, HR, accounting, basic economics, etc.
As I have mentioned, I also approach expert in historical, multi-religious studies, perhaps falling a bit shy of 10,000 hours of study, but not by a whole lot. It was time not well spent, save for the discipline and general knowledge gained. So when I go off on certain posters around here, it is based on thousands upon thousands of hours of research, study, experience, interviews, etc., in the field, obtained without an agenda. Compare and contrast that to those who might have some knowledge, but knowledge gained to support a particular point of view they already had.
So, my basic contention is that, based on my personal history, there would be a lot of experts floating around these parts. There would be experts in farming, business, truck driving, etc., and there would be points of cross-over expertise.
So when I call someone an imbecile for comments they make re manufacturing and aligned fields, I draw from a pretty good base of knowledge and experience. I do not argue with HSF and others re farming, as I defer to their expertise. Etc.
I think you underestimate the skills and knowledge around here.
Llpoh
Thanks for bringing the conversation back to my primary thesis. (Which was not the Garden of Eden)
My intent was not to underestimate “the skills and knowledge around here.” My bad. This joint is often an exception to the rule.
Even so, 10,000 hours is a mighty high hurdle. Of course, in one’s full time job those hours can be had in about five years. But, apart from work …. how many can/have committed ten thousand hours to something?
Stuck said ” how many can/have committed ten thousand hours to something?”
You are exactly right. Few will put in that amount of time on something if it does not pay. And even if it does, they do not truly hone the experience such as to become expert.
A lot of folks that work do not accrue actual “expert” type hours. Delivering mail, for instance, does not make for true expertise.
In manufacturing/management career, I easily have north of 100,000 hours experience, and around 40,000 of those hrs happened by the age of 30. During those years, I worked a lot of hours, and developed skills across the range, including planning, scheduling, quality, HR, distribution, finance and financial planning, accounting, computers, robotics, resource allocation, engineering, etc. Those skills turned into my long-term baseline, and by getting those skills early, I leaped ahead of my competition by the equivalent of perhaps a decade. By the time I was around thirty, I had almost 20,000 hours more direct, skill-related experience than my general competition. It sucked to be them.
But here is the thing – those skills were the foundation, but in and of themselves they were not especially valuable. What they provided me was opportunity and time to THINK. My base skills became so honed that I no longer needed to spend a lot of time doing routine tasks, but rather was able to spend time considering. And that was when the world changed for me.
So, when problems arose, or opportunities presented, I had the time to think, and in combination with the skill-base, was thus able to perform.
It is like the old saying – it is hard to remember you came to drain the swamp when you are busy fighting the alligators snapping at your ass. I became exceedingly adept at killing alligators, to the point it became routine. My swamps quickly became devoid of alligators. And as a result, I had more time available to drain the swamp. My direct competition spent their time fighting alligators, as they were inefficient at killing them.
In the end, I became successful not because of killing alligators, but because the swamps got drained.
Success is, in my experience, attributable to the two percent of what you do that no one else can. That two percent makes all the difference. But getting to where you can do that two percent means you have to be so good at the other 98% that you have time to think, and to learn, and to implement, and to gain experience in that two percent. And most folks simply never get there, because they do not hone their skills early enough.
Hope that makes sense and has some value to some folks.
Stuck also said above: “Of course, in one’s full time job those hours can be had in about five years.”
I must emphasize that those hours can be obtained in TWO years, and I highly suggest that young people starting their career do so. And then continue doing so for another several years. So after say 10 years, that person has accumulated 40,000 or 50,000 hours of experience, in comparison to the vast majority that have accumulated only 20,000 hrs in that time.
Guess what will happen over the next 30 years, if that is done? At the end of the day, the person will have worked probably no more hours, overall, but will have dramatically increased his/her prospects of success.
That said, go out and suggest 100 hour weeks to a young person, and see what response you get. Only the very rare indeed will even contemplate that kind of commitment.
Awesome post.
I wish I met you when I was a young man. Can’t imagine how my life would have changed, as I did NOT know back then the things you speak of today.
Llpoh, that is indeed one of your best posts. You refer to Malcom Gladwell, can’t remember the book (edit-Outliers, 2008). “Everybody has to pay their dues. Pay them while you are young, and you will reap the rewards for the rest of your life.” Meister, anesthesiologist and (jewish) friend of mine. “Success is, in my experience, attributable to the two percent of what you do that no one else can. That two percent makes all the difference. But getting to where you can do that two percent means you have to be so good at the other 98% that you have time to think.” That moment of awareness, and I’ve seen quite a few get to that point over the years, is special. Cross that line, and you have THE skill set that matters. I don’t know at what age that becomes impossible, but certainly every decision you make is a fork in the road getting you closer or further from that point. Great job putting something hard to explain into simple terms.
Star – I do not know at what age these things become possible, but generally when I see young people in their 20s handed the reigns to poppa’s big corporation and are named president, CEO, or whatever, I call bullshit on their ability to actually do the job. I think a person, given the correct pre, education, experience, etc., is pretty ready for senior roles in the early to mid-thirties, but the HR component – handling, managing, and disciplining people, and being comfortable with that – can occur a bit later than that. HR skills require more “feel”, and also require a very substantial backbone. Many people never develop such a backbone, either as a result of disposition or lack of ability. It is a hard thing to manage professionals much older and more experienced than you, or to fire them, or to make decisions affecting the jobs of tens, hundreds and even thousands of people.
“HR skills require more “feel”, and also require a very substantial backbone.” That’s very true. And the wild card is, people change. And in ways you don’t see coming, but you had better see coming. And it’s almost always your job to see it coming before anybody else does. So the moment you have to whack that person, it’s generally not a popular move. But if you don’t, it can poison a large portion of your operation. It’s lonely at the top, as they say.
Stuck – if you had met me when you were young, I would have been young, too. I knew little enough myself, but I had a good work ethic, and always kept goals in front of me to reach out for. That paid off somewhere along the line when the mass of skill and experience grew large, and the competition did not keep up.
At some stage, I just knew how to cut inventories, improve quality, delivery times, cost, balance lines, etc. I became able to do those things rapidly, and thence found I could do them concurrently. It was not like a switch being thrown, but the transformation happened quite quickly. And once that happened, I had time to focus on unified results, which is what it is all about.
Thanks for the kind words.
Despite our differences I always had a feeling that we shared more in common than it may have appeared. This post nails it.
All the things I worked at in my life were not necessarily the kinds of things I was better at than anyone else, but I worked harder at them. Maybe it’s the thing they call OCD or ADD or whatever term that’s currently apropos, but it was a question of focus and diligence above all else. The countless hours put in working, pondering, solving, thinking, dreaming about the work itself- all the inner drives that allow you to commit to something- not because you’re getting a paycheck, or winning awards or receiving accolades, but because you want to know everything that there is to know about the thing that is keeping you in the game.
As time has passed it became clear that what you thought you were doing was actually something very different. I think a lot of comics, for example, consider that their job is to be funny and make people laugh or write good jokes at best, but those are only the surface features of something more profound. What we’re really doing is learning how to master ourselves, to control our own desires and wants and hone the skills that go along with whatever our particular focus happens to be so that we can become something better, whatever it was we were meant to do or be.
You weren’t manufacturing widgets or employing people, you were crafting the best Llpoh that anyone had ever made.
Do you know the story behind this?
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The slab of marble that Michelangelo used to carve this masterpiece was rejected at the quarry for being imperfect. It took four years for him to release the man inside the stone and in that time he not only crafted one of the most important artworks of humanity, he became the Master he was made to be.
Knowledge is often assumed to be for the service and use of others and it may well serve that purpose, but it really for each of us so that we can fulfill whatever role we were put on this Earth to accomplish.
Or not.
HSF – thanks. Many times I tell my kids knowledge is its own reward. I truly believe that. Knowing things, understanding things is fulfilling in and of itself. And if undertaken, the path generally leads to very positive outcomes, whether intended or not. I went down the path with my career, with no grand plan and no one to advise me. The effort paid off. Only later did I connect the dots that the effort lead to knowledge, and skill, and in combination those things lead to ability and success. Who would have thought? In hindsight it is most reasonable, but I did not know such things. Hard work was just what I did.
And re our differences, never once have I been anything but in admiration of what you have accomplished with your family and farm. It is a magnificent thing, and you should be rightly proud and content.
By the way, I know the story re the David. I have seen it many times, and will be in Florence and will see it again later this year. It is a wonder of the world.
There is a story of Socrates that I can’t locate at the moment. In this story, Socrates walks around asking various experts in their fields (plumbers, lawyers, carpenters, etc.) what they know about their areas of expertise and then he asks their opinions about politics and affairs of state. Every one of them had a full blown opinion about these other matters, even though they apparently knew nothing about these matters. Being an “expert” in one small area apparently made them believe they were experts in MOST things.
https://qz.com/1017842/how-to-be-smarter-learn-to-say-i-dont-know/
EXACTLY!!
Something left out a lot of analysis on that story is regarding the problem of listening to someone who is an “expert” in politics and affairs of state.
Those people who are experts in a productive enterprises express their perspective on politics from a position to communicate with quality the way politics are helping/hindering their ability to excel.
However the person who excels in politics but not in productive enterprises often come to dominate this sphere, not because they are of actual value to the productive, but because they come to master manipulation of the natural and healthy friction between the various forms of productive enterprise.
It is not entirely reasonable to knock the productive for having opinions on politics colored by their spheres of influence. The danger does not lurk in them over-estimating their mastery of the political sphere. The danger comes in failing to properly look down upon those who choose to master politics and affairs of state at the expense of productive enterprise.
These masters of politics destroy far more than the carpenter and plumber having competing interests fighting it out in the public sphere.
With Socrates/Aristotle, etc… there is always more being put on the table than just the surface analysis. Especially when you consider that they were trying to put these ideas out there in ways that needed to fly under the radar sometimes while still having the core message there.
Productive masters expressing their understanding of political problems… from their vantage… is healthy and necessary.
I imagined just yesterday that here, right HERE, in the TBP garden of freedom that Yoebbels once again got a bad case of keyboard diarrhea and shit all over the threads.
I have been telling you since I arrived in the community that most everything in the construct is of a cerebral nature. Unfortunately, the complaints of boredom by the inhabitants of Eden and the whole eating from the tree of knowledge thing set the rest of us up for an eternity of BS and posts by BB.
God created the construct with GOOD and EVIL, so the evil was bound to creep in and fuk up the perfection, it was inevitable. Not something I worry about, just accept it as I accept that our country is inhabited by GOOD and EVIL. The bad actors are sure to sneak in and throw a monkey wrench into what was perceived as near perfection of mom, apple pie and freedom. But you no longer believe that this great experiment can continue so just as the pain of birth was laid on Eve, the pain of living in a communist world government will be the burden of our future generations UNLESS our perceptions should change .
Nice post, BL.
Concerning constructs …
There’s this one-frame cartoon — the doctor is pointing to one area of a man’s brain … with a caption …. “God is here.”
I always thought that “said it all”.
Yoebbels really does arrogate all white knowledge to himself as the embodiment of white accomplishment. Casting Yoebbels as the serpent would make T4C into Eve.
Damn Bea. You are no fun at all.
Maggie- I’m the bad guy? Sorry, I did not perceive that you were enjoying the non-stop diarrhea that goes on day after day. I will try to improve my attitude.
damn… I think I stepped in monkey shit.
This parable is obviously a record of the result when you create artificial intelligence, and it becomes self aware. “The Terminator” movie, is actually a reworking of the Genesis story of Eden. We are in Eden right now with AI on the horizon, therefore the story of Eden might also be a prophecy, but, sadly, I don’t know shit.
Granting for argument’s sake the premise that the Garden of Eden story is not entirely imagined, here’s some thoughts about what it means from two, to put it mildly, disparate sources:
What is the nature of the guilt that your teachers call his Original Sin? What are the evils man acquired when he fell from a state they consider perfection? Their myth declares that he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge – he acquired a mind and became a rational being. It was the knowledge of good and evil – he became a moral being. He was sentenced to earn his bread by his labor – he became a productive being. He was sentenced to experience desire – he acquired the capacity of sexual enjoyment. The evils for which they damn him are reason, morality, creativeness, joy – all the cardinal values of his existence. It is not his vices that their myth of man’s fall is designed to explain and condemn, it is not his errors that they hold as his guilt, but the essence of his nature as man. Whatever he was – that robot in the Garden of Eden, who existed without mind, without values, without labor, without love – he was not man.
Man’s fall, according to your teachers, was that he gained the virtues required to live. These virtues, by their standard, are his Sin. His evil, they charge, is that he’s man. His guilt, they charge, is that he lives.
They call it a morality of mercy and a doctrine of love for man.
— Ayn Rand (from Galt’s speech in Atlas Shrugged)
The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the Tree of Knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just kept your fucking mouth shut and hadn’t asked any questions.
The subtle message? “Get smart and I’ll fuck you over, sayeth The Lord.” God is the Smartest – and he doesn’t want any competition. Is this not an absolutely anti-intellectual religion?
— Frank Zappa
I wondered why Stuck hadn’t kicked your ass already. It may be his new loving approach. Another explanation is that your comment is actually somebody else’s. Both persons attempt to recast the Prometheus myth as the cause for man’s fall. That the nature of man’s sin was gaining the knowledge that white man shared with the world would make the white man into a serpent. Apparently, a few blacks believe this version and call the white man a devil for bringing fire, light and facebook into our innocent black and brown villages.
Both persons attempt to recast the Prometheus myth as the cause for man’s fall. That the nature of man’s sin was gaining the knowledge that white man shared with the world would make the white man into a serpent.
I think that I’ve seen a more retarded, incoherent, utterly clueless response to a forum comment – any comment, not just my own – but I really can’t remember when.
“I think that I’ve [never] seen a more retarded, incoherent, utterly clueless response to a forum comment – any comment, not just my own – but I really can’t remember when.”
Has it ever occurred to you that you are stupid? I address the idea that Rand and Zappa advance; that knowledge is man’s original sin. Then I humbly suggest that since Yoebbels claims the white man is responsible for disseminating said knowledge, he must be the biblical serpent. How is that incoherent, retarded or clueless?
However, if you find the claim that the white man gave the world all knowledge, a retarded and clueless concept, I’m with you.
It’s quite possible you have no idea that my comment is a sarcastic reference to Yoebbels’ never-ending bullshit about the white man’s contribution to humanity.
Stick around, YoBo is gathering more material for his Daily Shitter comments to come.
“white man’s contribution to humanity.” Is quite substantial.
Stop bullshiting yourself.
When I painted blacks and browns as living in villages, I gave white man the credit for the advancements in technology and living standards. However, it is important to give credit where credit is due, name names and quit claiming the discoveries of Europeans, the innovations of Americans and the details of the Japanese (they are also white by decree) and the application of these by the Chinese. Otherwise, it sounds as though the tards from Trumpville did it all.
This article labors under the delusion that humans were not intended to experience adversity, sickness, death, etc. In fact, all of these challenges are part of the plan, as anyone familiar with the Bible, or theology in general, would know. Earth is not intended to be a Petting Zoo. The fact that humans often make challenging conditions worse is simply a matter of choice, and the free will to make mistakes is essential to existence.
“This article labors under the delusion that humans were not intended to experience adversity, sickness, death, etc.”
Concerning “adversity”, thorns and thistles and difficult pregnancies didn’t occur until AFTER eating of the forbidden tree. Doesn’t appear we were intended for that.
Concerning death, it didn’t occur until AFTER eating of the forbidden tree. Doesn’t appear we were intended for that.
If the article “labors” take it up with the Original Author.
“Concerning death, it didn’t occur until AFTER eating of the forbidden tree. Doesn’t appear we were intended for that.”
Humans were not “intended” for death?
This is a deeply wacky and desperate fictitious construct.
So, you don’t believe in heaven?
INFIDEL !!!
I am an expert in some things, knowledgeable about others, totally ignorant about still more.
I try to express opinions on things I know / have experienced; but there are a few (socialism, communism, totalitarianism, others) that I have no DIRECT experience with but know to be evil. Do you really need to live under a socialist government to know its evils?
If you saw someone fall into an open manhole would you need to do likewise to know its hazards?
Learning from your own mistakes is necessary; learning from OTHERS’ mistakes is VITAL, if you wish to live longer.
Is it so questionable to learn from history? From observation rather than direct experience?
If we ALL learned from history and others’ mistakes then socialism and communism would never have spread beyond Russia, that first time; Keynesian economics would no longer be advocated; drug use would disappear. Can I contend that NOT learning from others’ mistakes is a primary failing of “modern” education?
Stucky – The only point you made is that you have no idea what you are talking about…..
.
There is a lot more to the Biblical account than you have been told. It has to do with good and evil.
.
It actually makes perfect sense if you know the rest of the story.
.
As a parting thought have you observed any “apes” turning into humans lately. Not even after millions of year and then some. Why not ???
Clint
Speaking of not having any idea what you’re talking about: nobody claims apes turned into humans. Humans and apes share a common ancestor.
” … have you observed any “apes” turning into humans lately.” ——- Clint
YOU seem to be a likely candidate.
“Adam did not blame Eve. Read it and you will see this.”
—— Edwitless
“And he [God] said, … Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?” The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.” ——Gen 3:11-12
===============
“Nor did she blame the snake. Read it and you will see this.”
—— Edwitless
“Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” —— Gen 3:13
The stupid in Edwitless, it burns deep.
The event as it happened.
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
The serpent beguiled her and she ate.
What she told God.
“The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.” Exactly what happened. In other words the whole truth.
The event as it happened.
“And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.”
God gave Adam the woman to be with him.
“and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
The woman God gave Adam to be with gave him the fruit and he ate.
What Adam told God.
“The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
Exactly what happened. In other words the whole truth.
The reason people read into the passage the idea that this was placing blame is that this is what has been told to them that sinful people do. But, there is not a single place anywhere in the scriptures, old or New Testament, that confirms this notion. Therefore it is a prejudiced interpretation arrived at through very poor contextual reading skills.
Let the scripture mean what it actually says and it is much easier to receive from it the message God wants us to know about Him and His relationship with mankind.
Blessings:-}
I just can’t….
The old testament is complete joooish horseshit. Shitcan it! I will state for the record that I am an expert in self-pleasuring.
If most everything you know is a lie.. Is the ((HOLOCAUST)) a lie?
((WHO)) writes the ((HISTORY)) books?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Dennis, you sound just like Sensetti, what you call a useful commonsense way out, he called ‘actionable’ suggestions to escape the coming doom.
I recently questioned whether Admin is real despite ample proof. But you, you declare HF and FM real without the need for proof. Perhaps if you listen to yourself, their commonsense way out is to de-grid and go back to the land; hunting or farming.
The rest of us shall continue bitching, moaning, pointing and pontificating. We’re not real anyway, we’re mostly imaginary.
And now for something completely different.
Former Iranian President Ahmedinejad said something funny on twitter recently so I replied with “marg bar israeli!” which means death to Israel. Since then I have been getting a bunch of likes from Iranians. lol
“For the purposes of this article I need for everyone (believers and non-believers) to assume (IMAGINE) The Garden of Eden was real and literal.”
Seems ironic for an article about everything you think you know being imagined, just saying.