Frostbite Falls Daily Rant- 4/29/2011

Doom Lite vs. Full Doom: The TBP Table of Core Arguments


Daily Rant Archive

 3/2/11, 3/3/11, 3/5/11, 3/7/11, 3/8/2011, 3/10/11, 3/12/11, 3/15/11, 3/17/11, 3/18/11,3/19/11, 3/20/2011, 3/24/11, 3/25/11, 3/27/11, 3/30/11, 4/9/11, 4/11/11, 4/14/11, 4/25/11, 4/27/2011


Top  Links


Reverse Engineering 

Automatic Earth 

Zero Hedge 

Economic Undertow 

Of Two Minds 


Rant Lite

Today’s rant frames up the major topics pursued on TBP and presents 2 opposing viewpoints on each of these topics.


Quote of the Day

Luk 21:10Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Luk 21:11“And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.





 A Tale of Two Depressions

As the Great Depression progressed onward, the early collapse in RE prices made many Banks insolvent, which then precipitated the Stock Market Crash of 1929. 




Geological and Cosmological Event Watch Thread

Not sure if there is really a significant increase in geologic events right now, but at least reading the MSM over the last year it appears to me that there has been an increase in frequency and in amplitude.



Other Shoes and the Uselessness Premium

“Creating fuel production in a failed- state Libya is beyond the grasp of the EU’s and United States’ unconventional ‘assets’. Blatant military intervention would be opposed by Russia, China and no doubt the other oil- producing autocracies.”





One of the greatest difficulties you have once you go “Full Doom” as a writer on the Econoblogs is that your concerns become less worth considering by people who are concerned with more “Doom Lite” issues, and their concerns aren’t that important to you.  Let me present a couple of examples to demonstrate how this works.

From my side as a Full Doomer, I’m not really concerned with Obama-care or Ron Paul’s Presidential bid.  I know Obama-care cannot work, but more than that I know there is NO solution to the health care problem that people would consider “acceptable”and would work.  I’m not really concerned with whether Ron Paul becomes POTUS or not, because as a Full Doomer I don’t think anything Ron Paul could do would stop or even much slow down the collapse.  If anything, if Ron Paul follows through with some of the things he has bloviated on over the years, I would expect the collapse to accelerate.  That IMHO would be a GOOD thing, so I support Ron Paul over any other dickhead out there running for POTUS, but I sure do not believe Ron Paul will solve our problems.

Not to say I don’t chip in sometimes on these threads, but when I do you will find many of my remarks to be quite sarcastic, and of course I engage in my predilection for digging up Pics to make fun of the threads.  This because I do not take those threads seriously; because I don’t think they are addressing the real problems.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, when a “Doom Lite” writer like Admin drops in on my threads, he mainly makes fun of my Doomsday ideas.  To him, considering a complete Civilization Collapse is not worthwhile, he wants to tweak and fix the current system to make it WORK again.  Kick the CONgress Critters out, do the Perp Walks with the Banksters, stop the Spending, stop exporting the Jobs, eliminate Entitlements and the FSA, let’s get Amerika PRODUCTIVE again!  The Doom Lite writer sees the short term problems and wants to find a FIX for them; the Full Doom writer sees all these things as transient and unfixable problems that are precursors to other problems.

Who are Doom Lite writers here on the net?  Examples would be Jim Quinn, Karl Denninger, Mike Shedlock, Yves Smith et al.  Full Doomers are Dmitri Orlov, Jim Kunstler,  Mike Ruppert, Chris Martenson et al.  Also myself of course, and I tend to out-Doom most of them, except Dmitri my Ruskie Twin. LOL.  Doom Lite writers tend to be most concerned with the mechanics of the Monetary System Collapse; Full Doomers focus down more on the long term issues of Peak Oil and Energy.

Neither group of writers is WRONG insofar as what they are concerned with, but the timelines are different and there are differences in the types of Solutions they try to consider.  However, if you put a Doom Lite writer and a Full Doom writer on the same website at the same time, each of them will consider the other one to be somewhat ridiculous.  That is for the most part why Jim and I argue, we both see the same things insofar as the collapse is concerned, but Jim hopes for solution to the economic and political issues which I already consider impossible to manage, and the solutions I consider are far past the timeline Jim is concerned with here.  He is most worried about the world his Sons are about to inherit; I am most worried about the world a couple of generations down the line will inherit. (call them Gen Apocalypse and Gen Mad Max)

MOST people prefer Doom Lite, because it tends to offer a little more in the way of HOPIUM.  Since this website is Jim’s Bully Pulpit, MOST of the people here are Doom Lite people.  There are a few Full Doomers here though, HZK is a Full Doomer, ER is a Full Doomer.  Not sure who else  though among the regular contributors is Full Doom.  Even Flash and Plubius are not Full Doomers, because both believe the Illuminati will be able to maintain control in perpetuity.  If you accept the idea that the Illuminati will be able to maintain control over society in perpetuity, you DEFINITELY are not a Full Doomer. (You can substitute and call the Illuminati an Oligarchy or Plutocracy or Krony Kapitalists, I just happen to like Illuminati as my term because it drives anti-Conspiracy Theorists NUTS. LOL)

Now that we have a better Definition of the Full Doomer and Doomer Lite philosophies we can take a look at a few of the Recurring Topics we have on TBP and briefly analyze the differing perspective of Full Doom and Doom Lite Pundits.


Doom Lite

Full Doom

 Dollar & Monetary System  We can fix the monetary system and rehabilitate the Dollar if we STOP PRINTING, feed Helicopter Ben to the Lions, Slash Spending, allow TBTF Banks to FAIL, Incarcerate the Criminal Banksters and use Precious Metals to underpin the currency.  The monetary system cannot be rehabilitated by any means, there will be a complete collapse of ALL Fiat money and financial instruments and commerce will for quite some time be mainly Barter.  PMs will only retain value in areas where there is a surplus of basic commodities.
Energy To resolve our Energy problems, we must IMMEDIATELY begin building more Nukes, Drill Baby Drill for more Local Oil and build more Hydro Plants and Wind Farms, and eventually pick up the slack from lost energy from Imported Oil sources. Lost Energy from depleted Oil is Irreplaceable and it is far too late to stop an extensive Power Down throughout society which will halt most of our Transportation methods and bring down the Electrical Grid.  Our only choice is to prepare for a Low Energy footprint in the future.
 Goobermint  We can fix Da Goobermint if we Vote Out all the scumbag CONgress Critters and replace them with Honest Politicians who cannot be Bought who all demonstrate the Wisdom of the Founding Fathers and abide by the Constitution.  Said new Goobermint will be made much smaller with fewer Regulations and less Taxation, allowing Commerce to revive as the Free Market takes over.  Da Goobermint is inherently unfixable and corrupt and cannot be rehabilitated via the Ballot Box.  Only a Revolution can remove the current power structure, and the results of a Revolution will likely bring a new Goobermint as bad or WORSE than the current one.  The failure of the monetary sytem and energy systems will eventually render all large scale Goobermints unable to function, with the power vacuum filled by local Warlords and Dictators in most places.
Jobs We must stop the offshoring of Productive Jobs and rebuild our Manufacturing Base in order to build an export based Mercantilist economy with a Trade Surplus. The Industrial Model is FINISHED, even if we could rebuild Factories here in the FSofA, we wouldn’t have the Oil to run them anyhow, and there won’t be anyone here or abroad who could afford the products we build with them anyhow, because of the upward spiraling cost of energy measured in EROEI.
 Immigration  We must Seal the Borders and deport all Illegal Aliens and get FSofA Citizens to work at all the scut jobs at below Minimum Wage they currently fill to reduce Unemployment and reduce the liabilities of Aliens who are soaking up free Medical Care in the Emergency Rooms of our Hospitals.  We can TRY to seal the borders and deport the Illegal Aliens, but they will just be replaced by more home grown Citizens who are falling off the economic cliff and will be just as big a drain on the Medical System.  Besides that, at least on the Border with Mejico,  it will likely create an ever growing Shooting War with a Tsunami of Wetbacks seeking to escape an even worse situation in Mejico.
 Imperialism & Foreign Wars  We must STOP trying to be the World’s Policeman, bring all our Boys & Girls HOME and reduce the outrageous COST of maintaining the Big Ass Military.  As soon as we STOP running all our Imperialist adventures, we will basically be CUT OFF from the Foreign Oil still making its way across the Sea Lanes to our Refineries.  We also will crash just about the only type of “productive” thing we build here anymore, which are the Weapons of War and we will bring back a whole new crew of people to put on the Unemployment line.
 Free Shit Army & 30 Blocks of Squalor  We must end all transfer payments, all Welfare, Social Security and Medicaire which are all unfunded Liabilities we cannot afford.  Former Welfare recipients will be FORCED to go back to work and become Productive Citizens rather than Useless Eaters.  Old Folks will rely on their Savings and their Extended Families to take care of them in their dotage.  The minute we knock down all these social support mechanisms is the minute we turn into Egypt or Libya or all the rest of the 3rd World countries where the people with Nothing Left to Lose go BERSERK.  We don’t HAVE jobs these people could do, even if they were qualified to do any job, which they are not for the most part.  Most Old Folks have no savings, and the Extended Family died back in the 1950s for the most part.  The Medical Industry as a whole would COLLAPSE without Goobermint input, putting the Doctors, Nurses and Medical Records folks on the UE lines also.


 China will succeed long term because they are net creditors, have most of the Industrial infrastructure and have more Science and Math geniuses studying at Elite Universities.  China is TOAST because of outrageous Population Overshoot, a depleted Water Supply, insufficient arable land and insufficient local supplies of remaining Fossil Fuel energy.




 Boomers should be EXTERMINATED  Pigmen should be EXTERMINATED


For those of you who do not think I can write in Brief, I think this Table destroys that argument. You cannot GET more Concise than this, 1-3 sentences from BOTH sides of every major debate we engage in here.  I challenge ANYONE here to phrase these arguments in shorter terms with less prose.  If you can do it, hats off to you, but I do not think it can be done.  What I have done here is Frame Up in Brief the CORE Arguments made in the various areas of the Collapse we mainly concern ourselves with here on TBP.  You could go to almost any Thread pursued here and drop it into one of these areas, and then further go in to look at all the Posts made in those threads and you would find they fit to one extent or another into either the Doom Lite or Full Doom perspective.  There are of course other areas of discussion and subsidiary topics based on the Newz of the Day, but in general terms these Top Ten areas cover probably 95% of the posting on TBP.  This is a WAG, I did not come up with that number Scientifically. LOL.

Now, as you go down the Table, you may find yourself to be Doom Lite in some areas, and Full Doom in others.  At the same time though, you should see how these areas inter-connect, so if you accept for instance the Energy argument of the Full Doomer, its hard not to also accept the Dollar argument.

The GAME I have here for this Rant is to do another one of my Polls of the membership.  After reading this post, do you put yourself more in the Full Doom Camp, or are you a Doom Lite kind of person?  How do you sit on the Core Issues defined here?  What is your rationale for believing one or the argument to be the better one?  Let us know your thoughts on these Core Issues.  Inquiring Minds want to Know.


97 thoughts on “Frostbite Falls Daily Rant- 4/29/2011”

  1. I’m now in the Full Doom Camp. I will announce it at a news conference later this afternoon and then pull a Bud Dwyer to make sure everyone gets the message.


  2. Excellent summary.
    For what it’s worth, I put myself in both camps. Physicists argued for years whether light was a particle or a wave as each side had experimental results proving their point of view. They finally agreed that light is both a particle and a wave. I am a Doom Light kind of guy for the near term, but the end game is probably Full Doom. Staying in the Doom Light camp helps me enjoy the party while it lasts, while prepping for what lies ahead. Just my way to carpe diem. Whatever gets you through the night, right?

  3. Nice summary. I’m evidently a HOPIUM addict. A full out doomer relying on a two pack/day doom-lite nicotine habit to keep showing up at work. That stuff’s gotta work….doesn’t it?

  4. I am solidly in the Full Doom camp.

    Surprised, RE?

    My disagreement with your posts are you very detailed scenarios and timelines. This will happen, then this, then this, then this, on and on and on. And you’re so damn adamant about it. You’re like a modern day Nostradamus … and his timelines and predictions were full of shit also. You don’t know dick about how and when it will end.

    For example, it could all end in a full blown Nuke Winter. Tens of thousands of Bombs worldwide … and more countries getting their own Bomb. Sooner or later these weapons WILL be used. A nuke war will at least fit the horrid scenario in the Book of Revelation. I just hope I get the chance to kill at least a couple bankers or pols.

  5. I’m a wavicle, err I mean litefull Doom-II-er.

    There are two huge wildcards, and I think one or both will control the outcome, which won’t match either of your scenarios.

    One, which I’ve brought up before, is an energy breakthrough. I am fully cognizant of peak oil and the lack of progress with “green” sources. There are some extremely promising developments on the nuclear side that appear likely to be very high EROEI and could be game changers. Two in particular are liquid thorium salt reactors, and traveling wave reactors. If either technology is made to work in the next 10-15 years, it could be a real game changer. They could possibly even generate enough power to allow synthetic creation of liquid fuels. It would be as big a change as the dawn of oil. Obviously, this is inherently unpredictable.

    The other issue, which I don’t think I’ve mentioned before or seen others mention, is the possibility of something wiping out a large portion of the human race without destroying all the infrastructure in the process. The most likely candidate would be a virus, and the possibility of a manmade virus shouldn’t be laughed at. There are other possible candidates – other diseases, certain types of warfare, genetic poisoning of the food supply, etc. The fuels that are rapidly being exhausted for 7B people could go far longer for <1B people. Yes, this is a grim and evil scenario. Look at the grim and evil people in the public view among the elites, and start thinking about who may really be behind them. You may not like where this thought process takes you. You may like it a lot less if you think about what types of environmental damage might result from such a plague, ala Fukushima Daichii. One starts to wonder if a lot of the mysterious catastrophes of the last 10-20 years were forms of testing. Not to mention the ridiculous H1N1 farce two years ago.

    Anyway, this is where we're heading under either of the scenarios that RE outlines above:

  6. I’m in both camps as well, RE… on the one hand, I am no fool and nothing lasts forever. NOTHING… at least in non-esoteric discussion. We are all walking corpses saying hello and hearing hello.

    As you know as well, RE, being an Illuminati Pig Man yourself, us animated self-concious pieces of walking meat are hard wired with the eternal inner scream that “I want to live!”… those of us with even an inkling of the curse of empathy realize that other pieces of self-concious, animated meat do as well…. and thus develops a sense of responsibility to self, family, friends, countrymen and humanity.

    Sure, we’re hopelessly doomed. But save the Admin’s Bud pic, we are also hopelessly optimistic. That’s why you’re hanging in Alaska and hording your fortunes like a typical Pig Man and not traveling the world in search of mind-bending deadly binges of drugs and hot bitches. That’s why you maintain contact with your worn out computer with inflated sense of purpose and snotty elitist “In-the-knowism” (Aka Illuminism).

    Full doom and doom lite are supplementary symbiotic attitudes.

    Nero’s fiddle plays because Nero knows he’s powerless. And Rome burns because it was always tinder in waiting.

  7. Excellent article and posts.

    I find myself in animated conversations with some friends who firmly believe, like Persnickety above, in technological breakthrough coming to the rescue. Even if it does, I can’t see it happening soon enough or with enough depth to rescue the Happy Motoring lifestyle or the global economy.

    I’d put myself firmly in the full Doom camp, with the only caveats being how it all spins down. Peak Oil is simply a fact of life. Right now we are watching a gigantic reset of the American economy, in favor of the few against the many, with people waiting till midnight at the first of the month in Wal-Mart to buy their groceries, because that’s where the SNAP cards fill. With record numbers of jobless, waiting for jobs that ain’t coming back. And with the prospect of justice for the few seemingly inevitably forestalled.

    And for my money, Colma’s “Rome burns because it was always tinder in waiting” is the Quote of the Day.

  8. As a full doomer you have no hope other than try to save yourself. So what if you are able to survive in your bunker. Wouldn’t it be far better to spend your time trying to find solutions to our problems even though they appear daunting?

  9. Surly – just to avoid any confusion, I don’t “believe” that a technological breakthrough is in any way a sure thing. Obviously fusion and solar have been “promising” for about 40 years now and are still not very practical or likely to save us. I just point out that technological breakthroughs are unpredictable, and anyone who completely discounts that possibility is, in my view, showing a bias. I seriously hope that there is a breakthrough that makes energy cheap again and keeps our lives comfortable. I do not put any particular odds on that happening.

  10. “My disagreement with your posts are you very detailed scenarios and timelines.”-RE

    Well, its sort of like driving in to work on Wall Street from the Hamptons. You can’t know exactly how long it will take your Limo driver because it depends on the Traffic. However, there is an average amount of time it takes assuming average traffic.

    We both agree its Full Doom. I just make a gues on how long it will take to get there assuming average traffic.


  11. Sorry to misread. I often find myself in disagreement with technological optimists who believe in the Magic Bullet. And since one of them is a science writer of no mean ability, I find myself at once wanting to grant him the weight of his superior knowledge of the field, while wanting to disabuse him of magical thinking, or in this case, denial.

    You are correct that we’ve been leaving the light on for 40 years for a solution. Yet it is also true that there are entrenched interests with a clear monetary stake in insuring that doesn’t happen, and that we have failed, largely as a result of these same interests, in mounting a serious, Saturn-program-style effort to develop same.

    I can already hear Jim and others wondering what the hell happened to the untold billions dropped on the Department of Energy over the decades. For those dollars not vacuumed up by the DOD to disguise the true cost of the Defense budget, that’s a good question.

  12. Hey, RE! What am I, milk toast?

    I started out as a Doom-lite at about 1975. By the early 80’s I was a full blown doomer, homesteading in N. Idaho. By the mid-80’s I was back in the doomer-lite mode, in a bull market coming off the bottom and living on Maui..

    Now, to old to give much of crap (but going to a gun show tomorrow looking for a nice 20Ga pump with an 18″ barrel). I can see the sine wave patterns of history just lying out there for all to see if they’d look. Each down cycle followed by pain, rebuilding — shit — multiple “turnings” just varying in time and degree of foolishness.

    Now, we’ve gone too far down the “I’m really smart! We can control this thing!” path and I see no way out that doesn’t involve more than Doom Lite.. What we have left, since we are in the process of loosing our currency, is a huge infrastructure in this country that will take a while to run off, cannibalize, use up and otherwise destroy.

    I’m quite sure the Feds and the State governments are capable of eating their own young in many creative ways and they will allow the infrastructure to crumble around us as we slowly fade into history. When the infrastructure and capital improvements that have been put in place over the decades are run out, then so are we and it won’t go in a straight line either.

    I really don’t see Mad Max for another decade or two unless someone makes a big miscalculation and we go out in a rain of nuclear fire. Nice biblical ring to that.. Eventually, sadly to say, there will be a die off of significant numbers, a general reduction in standards of living and, again, if no mistakes are made (what are the odds of that? 10% maybe) a “new level” of civilization may emerge – probably no smarter that the old one. Otherwise, over then next few hundred years, we will just fade away as another bio-experiment that wasn’t smart enough to adapt to changing environment or too stupid not to kill ourselves off.

    So color me shades of Doomer from Lite to Full Doomer along a time line that, hopefully, will be longer than I’m around to see…

    Good post RE..


  13. RE-
    I have been in the full doom category since the mid 60’s and I don’t think I have ever seen a clearer explanation of it. I hope this gets reprinted at other locations. This train wreck has been coming for a long time and efforts to “correct” it are just prolonging the unavoidable end. This was the basis of Galt’s decision to go on strike. I also believe Alan G understood this and pulled a Francisco d’Anconia to help move it along. A historical view….

    “Their intention is to make loans to such imprudent people or by buying up their property to hope to increase their own wealth and influence” while “The moneymakers continue to inject the toxic sting of their loans wherever they can, and to ask for high rates of interest, with the result that the city becomes full of drones and paupers”.
    Socrates speaking in Plato’s “The Republic” in 380 B.C.

    Stay frosty.

  14. “Well”, said the duchess as she lay dying, “It’s all been very interesting.”
    As a soon to be non-player, I find myself looking through the other end of the telescope. The macro is nothing; the micro, all. How to assist my beloveds in the transition is everything. To acquire such material, financial, and technical resources which can be shared with them is my goal. A topos, a place, an environment for the accomplishment of a specific purpose (in this case: continuation) is the summit of what aspirations I have left. If I leave shelter, land, tools, and a library I will have provided all the legacy I am able. As to the philosophy, boa sorte.

  15. “The other issue, which I don’t think I’ve mentioned before or seen others mention, is the possibility of something wiping out a large portion of the human race without destroying all the infrastructure in the process.”-Persnickety

    Well, first lets strt with the less nefarious option, a random but highly infectious and lethal virus that has say a 90% infection rate and 90% mortality rate, which leaves approximately 19% of the population still standing after 1 year.

    All of our infrastrucure systems would break down anyhow, you would lose too many critical personnel at large Ports to service the Tankers, the refineries would not be operating, you would lose the electric power grid. So the 19% left are still going to face the same situation of quickly learning to adapt to a low energy footprint world.

    With the more Nefarious Option, say our Illuminati Overlords have a Custom Virus ready to unleash, which they have the Antidote for. Now in theory said Illuminati can keep themselves alive plus Critical Personnel they choose. How many people do you suppose they will need to keep alive to run at least one Refinery, Oil Tankers, factory workers to build their Jet Planes, farmers to grow their Food, truck drivers to bring them their food, etc, etc etc? It takes a LOT of people to support one Illuminati Pigman in High Style. How are the Illuminati going to get the antidote to enough of the critical personnel they need to keep a smaller version of this machine running?

    Anyhow, my conclusion here is that whether planned or not, a Neutron Bomb solution which quckly wipes out most of the population but leaves the infrastructure standing STILL ends up with a Power Down scenario, in fact one which will come about quicker because there is a critical number of people necessary to keep the large Global system together. Once enough people drop out of that loop, the system integrity is shot.

    Not a Winning Play for the Illuminati, so unless its a random event, I don’t see this one as a very good choice for the Masters of the Universe.


  16. Colma,

    You got 3 thumbs with one click, but that comment was nicely put. When all is hopeless, your soul dies.

  17. “I have been in the full doom category since the mid 60′s and I don’t think I have ever seen a clearer explanation of it. I hope this gets reprinted at other locations.”-Gitano

    Thanks G. I don’t even know HOW to submit an article to Zero Hedge or any of the “Big Blogs” though, and generally I am too over the top for anything but TBP. so right now this is the only place to read Frostbite Falls Daily Rants.


  18. RE-

    What a great paper bag of shit to throw into the fire.

    Ruins everbody’s day. So what am, I, Bud Lite or Fosters?

    After a little bit of Vitamin V i deduced that I haved moved from the decidedly Doomer Camp to the Lite Camp

    We gotta go down fighting.

    Thank you for yo pussiness

    Whaa Whaa Whaa

    1. Each of us is only on this planet for 80 to 100 years, if we are lucky. If we all believe there is no hope, why go on living. If civilization is doomed then it actually makes sense to borrow to the hilt and live like a king for the time being. If there is no future for my children or grandchildren, then I should teach them to leech off the people who think there is a future.

      If there is no hope, I should borrow against my house and take a trip around the world. I should lease a couple BMWs. Who the fuck cares. I’ll teach my sons to not worry about their fellow man. Screw em.

      That is quite a vision. If we are all doomed, why keep posting articles about doom on the internet? We’re doomed anyway.

      I think there is a future for my sons. I think they will lead the way to that better future. I hope it isn’t nearly as hyper-consumeristic as our current system, but I won’t be throwing in the towel.

  19. “That is quite a vision. If we are all doomed, why keep posting articles about doom on the internet? We’re doomed anyway.”-Admin

    Because the end of Industrial Civilization and the end of this particular way of life isn’t the end of Homo Sapiens. SOMEBODY is going to make it through this Zero Point, at least I hope somebody does. Clearly I don;t think very MANY people will make it through, but SOME will.

    So my job as I see it is to explain to people what I think is coming down the pipe and how to best prep up for it. I consider it a waste of energy to worry about Obamacare or whether Ron Paul is elected POTUS. A better use of energy IMHO is getting your skill set in order to best negotiate the future. Regular Hunting and Fishing trips, learning to build Shelters with Hand Tools and available materials, studying books on edible wild plants, blah blah. Then you teach these things to the kids you work with, because THAT is what they will need to know, not Calculus.

    The end of Industrial Civilization is not the end of the World. Its just the end of a particular way of life.


  20. Hey RE – I read most of it as it was shortish! I am a lite for sure. Populations will drop lots by the end of this century. Energy alternatives will be found – wave, geo, solar,wind, etc. No magic bullet probably but who knows. In the meantime nuclear energy will be a major requirement. Calculus was invented 3 hundred years ago and finally paid huge dividends . Aquantum physics is still a baby in diapers and may well do the same. Throughout history people have said that no further technical leaps forward were possible. They have been wrong every time. I suspect they are wrong again. Buy the dip.

    It won’t be pretty. Doomlite not doomsday.

  21. First, good job dudes. It’s a shame there is not such kinds of completely nuts but lucid blogs here in France as far as I know.
    Always a great pleasure to read your posts even though it’s not easy to read them for a frog eater.
    Me, mmm, kind of full doom with hopes (afterall I’m human), like in the Alphaville’s song “hoping for the best but (really) expecting the worst”
    Indeed this will end badly, sadly, in a bloodbath. This will not be the end of the world, but in a certain point of view the end of a world, the end of the modern world.
    Gotta find some candles and a few archaic tools to grow the land.

  22. i call for the immediate end to this website and all others of this ilk so we can all blow our fucking heads off!

  23. Let me not presume to speak for Jim, but I’m not no sure he’s Doomer Lite. He’s the most active proponent of the 4th Turning of all the blogs I read, and the 4th Turning in progress sounds like it could turn out to be a real fucking drag.

    On the other hand, I’m not so sure Chris Martenson is a Full Doomer. His is the first site I found detailing out coming changes, and I think he’s pretty rational and level-headed. I’m going to ask you to provide some quotes to back up your position on this one.

  24. Nope. It was me. It was short enough to scan/read. History says developments keep happening. Human minds simply cannot believe forward leaps are possible. The earth is flat and the center of the universe. Men can’t fly. Etc etc etc. To think we will stop now flies in the face of all history. Loss of oil will be a bummer. Resources are finite. But who knows the alternatives? Not me. Not you. But we certainly are going to take some serious lumps.

  25. I am in the no doom camp. As soon as we take back our government from the alien nationals and global corporations that captured it; and rid it of the ivy league college bone heads with puffed up egos that have infiltrated it, we will be back on the road to prosperity.

    We somehow are being fed the error notion that the american tax payer is responsible for all the debt this government has created. We are not. The representatives in congress represent the corporations; not the people. The States and the people lost representation long ago. The States lost it with the 17th amendment to the constitution. The people lost it when the UNITED STATES became a corporation. It is the replacement for the East India Company complete with military. The people have no say as to what the US decides with its deciders. The benefit of Corporate status for the government is that it does not need approval from congress to make war and the president no longer needs to be a national. The only thing the people can do is elect the preselected candidates for president.

    Just because we have all our functions of our economy run by computers does not mean we cannot do without them. I give the american people more credit than the full doomers. Perhaps the empty suits will have a hard time but the average american will adopt. God got angry at King David for numbering the people. Our government has gone a step further and enumerated the assets of the people. One thing that will happen with the crash is that assets wil be more difficult to enumerate. I see this as economic freedom for those that love Liberty over security. Our society has too many freeloaders and parasites. An economic collapse is a good way to weed out the dead wood.

  26. RE – the mistake you make is to presume you know what you in fact do not know. You presume to know for certain that the energy situation will not be resolved. It is the cornerstone of your doomsday scenario. If the energy issue is overcome, the rest of your scenario disintegrates. It is the mistake of the ages. I do not know what the answer to the energy crisis is. That does not mean it will not be answered. Quantum physics is discovering things every day. Yesterday I read about a successful wave energy trial – expensive but seemingly functional. I do not see a magic bullet. But as I said before, human history is littered with the carcasses of those who thought they knew what they did not in fact know. For fuck sake, they are able to transport particles instantaneously and seem to have proved that particles can exist in 2 places at once. We all know that shit is impossible. Totally impossible. But nonetheless, there it is.

  27. A few brief responses here tonight.

    First, putting Chris Martenson into the Full Doom group might not be correct, since I haven’t read enough of his stuff directly to be sure. I’m basing this on second hand reviews I have read of CM. Jim here though is pretty much definitely Doom Lite, he has said as much here in the thread.

    I’m glad its the real LLPOH and not a Doppelgänger, and I will address your criticisms tonight LLPOH and post it up tomorrow. Valid criticisms which take some pondering on to make a good response to. Good debate.


  28. RE

    Yet another superb analysis that shines a spotlight into the dark corners of this blog.

    One error that I would like to correct you on….

    You have me down as Full Doom – however since learning that “the false storyline that there are no jobs is a crock of shit”, I have changed my outlook to Doom Lite. 🙂

  29. Like llpoh, I appreciated the brevity & conciseness-thanks. Nice post, especially the Point/Counterpoint comparison of positions (Jane, you ignorant slut). Long term, I guess I am pretty much full doomer, but I can’t help thinking we might mitigate the damage with some really radical (doom-lite) policy, i.e., Ron Paulesque, severe austerity/gov’t contraction. I don’t see that as likely to occur, but I still have hope (or is it denial?).

    As for the energy crisis-surly & llpoh are right, you can’t discount the possibility of a game-changing breakthrough. But if not, I lived off the grid for years up here. Not a trivial exercise, especially in a Fairbanks January, but been there, done that. Am trying to ensure my kids can do the same if/when the need arises. No petroleum means a major shift in lifestyle, but the Athabascans did it for generations; I hope I & mine can too.

  30. llpoh

    I knew it was the real you. A typo from your Blackberry and corrected in the next message.

    Anyhow. I quite liked the dichotomy comparison but also thought, maybe there is a whole spectrum of possibilities. TEOTWAWKI is certainly on the cards but the outcome? It could be D-lite or F-D yet not be … The End. And as I read the comments, here was: “The end of Industrial Civilization is not the end of the World. Its just the end of a particular way of life.” — RE

    So even our Voice of Doom is not a Full Doom supporter.

    Here, I offer a parable:

    One day, untold millenia ago, Og fell out of a tree.

    Now, this had happened many times before. Prior unfortunates just lay there, trembling in fear, until they died of thirst, or an animal finished them off. Og, however, managed to stand up! Soon he was running around the savannah, yelling and grinning to himself.

    Finally, a bit tired, he returned to the tree and started to climb.


    The tree people heard the voice of the one they called “scary.voice.of doom” but never used his name, a single syllable, which was a Word of Power. He had said so.

    S.V.o.D thundered down to Og: “You have broken the Covenant of The Tree and shown the first sign of Progress. You are exiled.” Og reckoned it was no big deal; vesides, walking and running was fun. So he went away and eventually found a body of water. Across it was another island. He waded into the cool water and discovered, wow, floating and thrashing of limbs could move you through this new substance. The sea creatures were frightened at this strange being and kept away.

    Og got to the other island, found a tree, but didn’t live in it. Time passed and he discovered fire. One thing led to another.

    Once that Progress is initiated, it can’t be stopped. There will be improvements to a way of life — and wrong turns — it will evolve. Every problem has a solution, and many solutions become problems. Og’s descendants created many problems and overcame them, sometimes two steps forward with one step back. They learned from their mistakes and are still learning. Someday, they’ll get it right.


    To me, the argument that we will find a Solution because we have always found new solutions is purely Faith based and really gives us no clue as to HOW we will find such a solution. When you go down the List of Possible Solutions that currently exist, you can pretty easily deconstruct them and show why they likely will not work as solutions. Dmitri Orlov is pretty thorough in debunking most proposed solutions, and then if you really want to go deep into the debunking, all you need to do is read back posting on The Oil Drum, Life After the Oil Crash, Peak Oil (my old Home Turf from 07-09 before I got BANNED), etc. There is just VOLUMES of material out there on every possible permutation, I’ve been reading the stuff virtually nonstop since 2007 when I got my Wake Up Call in the aftermath of Bear Stearns and I have barely scratched the surface of what is out there. For every word I write, I probably read 10000 words written by others since I read WAY faster than my absolutely INCREDIBLE keyboarding speed (evidenced here on Daily basis) and I spend more time reading than writing. From my reading, I am quite convinced no current solution in the pipeline at any stage of development can resolve the overall problems of energy production, storage, transmission, portability and absolute cost in terms of EROEI.

    I do not dispute the possibility that at some point in the future some new technology might be developed that is not even on the radar now, but since the likelihood of that seems very small to me, the logical thing to do is to prepare on the assumption such a technology will NOT be found. If it is, great, I’ll be able to keep driving around some kind of vehicle powered by something and lots of cool foods will continue to magically appear on the Supermarket shelves, but I am going to prepare on the assumption that will NOT be the case. Hope for the Best, Prepare for the Worst of course.

    Now, MOST people since they are IDIOTS are completely CLUELESS and don’t even make it into the Doom Lite vs. Full Doom debate at all, so I am not even going to consider them. They aren’t even here reading this website or other ones concerned with the issues, they are watching Amerikan Idol and the Royal Wedding. Breaking down the much smaller subset of people who DO have a clue, again most of them fall into the Doom Lite category, although I think the number of Full Doomers is increasing. When presented with all the evidence (assuming these folks have spent a decent amount of time reading up on all the issues), why is it that the majority remain in the Doom Lite category? Two basic reasons for this IMHO.

    First one is that the idea we are unavoidably going to return to a subsistence living paradigm without even the basic improvements made through the industrial era like Electric Lights and Indoor Plumbing is so HORRIFIC an outcome to most people they simply won’t consider it as even POSSIBLE. People who grew up inside the Industrial Nations in the latter stages of this paradigm have become CONVINCED that we are destined to Trek the Stars and get ever cooler Gadgets to play with like Iphones and Wii consoles. Giving all this STUFF up is so far beyond the IMAGINATION of most people, even if they ARE aware of all the problems we have keeping the paradigm running that they simply REFUSE to consider the possibility this won’t continue onward. We have ALWAYS found Solutions, we always WILL find solutions! It’s pure Faith Based Ideology.

    The second reason for maintaining the Doom Lite ideology is a little more abstract, it comes from strongly held notions about what is wrong with our society that everyone works up through their lives which they have a hard time letting go of. You gradually become convinced over time of certain things you see WRONG in the society, and these are your personal Pet Peeves. The 30 Blocks of Squalor, the People of Walmart, the inefficency and waste of Big Goobermint, high Taxation rates, stupid Union Rules etc etc etc are all aspects of our society which bug the living shit out of you on a Daily basis. As the collapse proceeds, you get even MORE upset over all these things, and they become the FOCUS of your anger. “If we just GET RID of Big Goobermint, if we just STOP dishing out Welfare, if we send the Unions to the Great Beyond we can get our society Back on Track!” The Doom Lite philosopher looks at all the SYMPTOMS here of the society we developed and feels that if we just treat these symptoms, we will cure the DISEASE. My position here is that we cannot Cure the Disease by treating the Symptoms of the Disease. The real Disease here is the evolution of complex systems which take an extraordinary amount of Energy to keep functional. I refer to such systems as the “Conduits” (and its probably a good time to resurrect my Conduits series, so it will likely be Coming soon to a Theatre Near You). To run very large societies you need very complex systems to do it, and those systems evolve over time. Capitalism is such a Complex System, so is Communism. The problem here is that we do not have enough energy available anymore to maintain such complex systems, so little fixes on some of the symptoms won’t do Jack Shit to cure the disease here.

    I will of course NEVER be able to convince people who have been totally sold on the idea that we can perpetually improve the human condition through invention and ingenuity that there is an END to such improvement, and moreover that the End is now in Sight. Its not going to come Tomorrow, and it might not even come for another Decade, at least for people who have not yet ALREADY fallen off the economic cliff of a collapsing monetary system. But come it will, barring the Miraculous discovery and implementation of Energy resource that we have not been able to make work for 60 years. That Holy Grail was Fusion Power, and I do not think it will ever be achieved at positive EROEI here on Spaceship Earth.

    Stuck does not like that I do my Nostradamus Predictions of Timelines for the failure, but he does agree that the systems will fail. I do the predictions and write the scenarios in order to bring home the IMMEDIACY of the problem that faces us here, in the effort to get more people to do the best they can to Prepare for the Worst, while Hoping for the Best. For the Silents and the older Boomers here, if we are all very lucky and do not have a Fast Crash, we may just make it to the Great Beyond before the whole thing goes to Hell in a Handbasket. The chances that the whole Bizness does NOT Crap Out before GenXer’s cross the Great Divide is exceedingly small though IMHO. The GenXers are themselves now mostly too old to prepare for the world that is likely to come here, for the most part they expect what the Silents and Boomers GOT, and are just getting increasingly pissed off with the realization they will not GET it.. They are NOT prepared in any way for how to deal with NOT getting it though. I cannot Save them now, they are a Lost Generation. I want my legacy to be with the most recently born, I do not even know if there is a name for the generation I teach yet. The kids I teach are 8-15 years old, they are the ones who will have to make it through the Zero Point, if it comes in the next Decade as I expect it will. I will call them GenA, for Apocalypse. I want to teach them skills for Survival at the most basic level. If things turn out better than I expect, having those skills won’t hurt them. If things turn out as I think likely they will, these are the ONLY children who will make it through the Zero Point.

    I myself am too old to survive the world to come, with too many health issues that would prevent it. But I still do know many things, and more than that, I know how to TEACH many things. Meta-cognition is my game on an academic level, understanding how people think and how thinking produces understanding. I have a topological theory on cognition that is fairly novel. Got the Ph.D. Dissertation almost done here. Not something I intended to do, but a Doctorate will help me on Da Goobermint level, so I am doing it. What pisses me off here is I have to PAY people to read this bullshit and then issue me a Ph.D so I can PROVE to Da Goobermint I know what I already know I know. LOL.Nominally my Masters in Ed provides me enough Sheepskin to do what I am doing, but being a DOCTOR makes Goobermint Apparatchiks turn into bowls of quivering Jello, which is helpful if you are running on the far side of what is reimbursable by the State. I could have done this a bit easier (and CHEAPER!) going Ed.D.rather than Ph.D, but by doing this in Psych rather than Ed I can license to be a Shrink also. LOL. Imagine ME as a Shrink! ROFLMAOPIMP. Not to worry, I still would have to do an internship I am not gonna do to get that license. All it really gets you is a Goobermint OK to issue Drugs to Kids to control their behaviors anyhow.

    In my mind in abstract, I believe I can make a difference here for some of GenA, and so I will try to do that before I walk into the Great Beyond. I will not sell these children on Hopium or advise them to go to an Elite University as I did. That world IMHO is passing into history now. If they have a mind for it, I will still teach them the Calculus, so hopefully that knowledge does not disappear too quickly from the face of the earth, but in reality I doubt this knowledge will be of great use to them other than the fact it helps you to organize your mind and understand nature better. They will be faced with a much more difficult problem than any differential equation. The problem of how to SURVIVE in a world depleted of the Fossil fuels that made all our lives so much easier for these last couple of centuries. This form of living is going the way of the Dinosaur, IMHO to be quite sure. Its NOT the end of Homo Sapiens, at least it does not HAVE to be the end. It is just the end of Industrial Civilization, and that is what you have to accept as most probable here, and prepare for it.

    For myself, I am a Boomer Dinosaur, overdue for Extermination. I should be DEAD already many times over based on the Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Good Looking Corpse Boomer life I led. Therein Muck About lies the ANSWER to the Captain Obvious Question you asked regarding why your Daughters lived as they did despite your best advice. You see, even if it was not conscious the Boomer generation KNEW from the time the the Counter Culture died at the end of the 60s that there was NO HOPE to reform the culture. And so they went NUTS, and they Partied Like it was 1999. They let it ALL hang out, let Greed go WILD, get as much as you can, take as much as you can, borrow as much as you can. Boomers did TRY to STOP this at Woodstock and in Haight-Ashbury in San Francisco and on the Farm in TN, but they were CRUSHED by Silents on the Streets of Chicago at the Democratic National Convention in 68 and were shot down at Kent State University and on the Killing fields of Vietnam. The Rebels were CRUSHED by the Silents. Like sexually abused children, surviving Boomers became the abusers themselves, in SPADES. To seek the reason for why Boomers behaved as they did, all you have to do is look at what the Silents sold to those Boomers. They sold them AS CHILDREN on the idea that Technology could make their lives ever better, as in “The Graduate”, Benjamin is sold that the Future is PLASTICS. The Silents created a sick generation beneath them, and they are the ones most responsible for this mess. The Silents enabled the Evil and bred up a massive Baby Boom of Evil Seed. Boomers are simply the VICTIMS of the abuse of the Silents. LOL.

    So, here’s to you Mrs. Robinson. Joltin’ Joe has left and gone away. That mirage went Bye Bye in the 60’s and the Boomers never recovered from the abuse of the Silents. Paul Simon got that one right. Nor will the GenXers EVER recover from the abuse by the Boomers. We ALL should have KNOWN from the day Bobby Kennedy got gunned down it was Hopeless. I lost my Hope that day in 1968 when I was 12 years old, and I never Voted for a single Political Candidate ever because of that. I never even REGISTERED to vote in any political party. Only thing left was to Party like its 1999, and party I sure did. Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Good Looking Corpse.

    See You on the Other Side.


  32. (lord, and fellow folks on the platform, please forgive me for what i am about to do)

    ok RE, i’ve got a follow up question. i am asking for more words from you on a point.

    i was 11yo on that day, june 5, 1968. it fucked up my little head too. (a week before, i had gotten permission to skip a half day of school so i could attend a campaign rally and hear senator kennedy speak. big event for me.)

    not immediately, but eventually the result of that event on my psyche (and all the other devastating events of that year) was not to give up hope, but to recognize how difficult realizing hopes would be in this life.

    i mentioned in another rant that in my estimation, boomers pussed out. they gave up not by virtue of being crushed, but by lack of conviction/fortitute/whatever.

    so, i am challenging you assertion that boomers were crushed. four dead in ohio is not crushing; prague ’68, or if you prefer bahrain and daara, syria 2011 is crushed. what qaadaffy is doing is crushing.

    (how many were killed in the streets of chicago? that wasn’t crushing. they couldn’t even crush the leaders in the courtroom in the aftermath.)

    i will give you that the vietnam experience certainly had a profoundly crushing effect on the generation and on the nation as a whole. but it isn’t as if vietnam was ever conceived as a means of destroying the hope and aspirations of a generation desiring to change the culture. and i will give you the possibility that the assassinations of king and kennedy were crushing blows, but i need convincing. (i actually used to think exactly that; but sometime in the late 70s or so i changed my mind.)

    so i am open to your postulate that the generation was CRUSHED, but i disagree. my conclusion is that the generation was occasionally smacked with the thinnest of sticks, but presented with big fat plastic carrots, promises that if you cut your hair and go back to school, all this can be yours. they were lightly spanked, then given all the ice cream they could eat as long as they quit wearing tie dyes.

    Boomers were not crushed. they were bought off and they pussed out. oh, how is it we used to say it, i think there was an expression for it. oh yeah, i remember.

    “Sold Out”

    Our Boomer generation sold the fuck out. again and again. They selling out right now.

    discuss. (and by discuss, i mean, bring it, bitch.)

    (and no rush–maybe make this an article in a few days or a week or two from now if you are so inclined. i am betting the admin has some thoughts along these lines.)

  33. @Howie

    Gee, your question there is practically as long as some of my rants. LOL.

    Obviously way too much in that question to pound out here at the Internet Cafe, it will have to wait until I am back at the Cabin with a few Sam Adams in me. Just a teaser here for you though, think about how I write and remember my motivations for writing some things aren’t always straight up. In other words, sometimes I write things which are not true or only partially true in order to achieve a certain result with the writing.

    Anyhow, thanks for a very provocative question, I will ponder on it.


  34. RE – if you addressed anything I said then too fucking bad. Too long to read. Why do you insist on being an ass? You say you want to debate but all you do is hide behind a fucking wall of words.

  35. I aint Howie. It was too much to expect to be able to converse in any sane way. You run and hide behind volume whenever you want to dissimilate. I aint one of your fucking students and you are no professor. You profess to want debate. What a load of shit. You just want to stroke that massive ego. Good luck with that. I won’t play tjat game.

  36. oh i didn’t read all that stuff. my eye was drawn to the capital letters, CRUSHED. i only read that one word.

    as for length, sorry to encroach upon your territory. let me rephrase:

    “CRUSHED? are you a fucking moron or what? as usual, you don’t know what your talking about, you boomer sellout pussy!”


    seriously, my identity as an outsider includes feeling outside of my assigned bb demographic. and plenty of ambivalent feelings over the years about my generation (as well as my society and culture). this generational stuff is interesting to me.

  37. dude, i guess i wasn’t reading carefully. cause i had the impression that a civil conversation between you and RE was about to break out. and that inspired me to engage in one myself.

    clearly i misunderstood.

    but there is something that i have a difficult time resisting. bobby kennedy’s campaign and murder was a big event in my childhood that left marks on me. sounds like it did the same to RE. that sucked me in too. i’m sincerely interested in what RE has to say on this. wtf–it don’t cost nothin.

  38. Unfortunately Howie, anytime I respond to llpoh with anything more than paragraph length, he blows a fuse. He made some good observations yesterday, so I responded to them, but now the response is too long for him. Whatever.

    Anyhow, I will write something about Bobby K tonight.


  39. Howard – I tried. RE doesn’t understand debate. It has general rules – like time/length constraint. RE doesn’t want to debate. He wants to pontificate. What a fool was I to think he might actually civilize for a day.

  40. @ LLPOH

    I was unaware that we are running by Robert’s Rules, but even if we were, there is no particular time constraint set on a debate other than what is agreed to by the participants.

    “1. The limit of time should vary to suit circumstances, but the limit of two speeches of ten minutes each will usually answer in ordinary assemblies and, when desirable, by a two-thirds vote it can be increased or diminished as shown in 30. In the U. S. House of Representatives no member can speak more than once to the same question, nor longer than one hour. In the Senate there is no limit to the length of a speech and no senator can speak more than twice on the same day to the same question without leave of the Senate, which question is undebatable.”

    First off, it does not take 10 minutes to read what I wrote even if you are a slow reader. Second, I don’t see any reason for a time or length constraint here, the Senate doesn’t have one so why should we?

    Why is it “uncivilized” to write a detailed response to a question? Really LLPOH, you just make no sense.


  41. RE-I think your “Blame the Silents” reply is one of your most coherent pieces yet. Or at least, you hit a few nerves. don’t agree with all your positions, but you make valid points. I have reluctantly joined the 21st century technology, or late 20th century at any rate, but always behind the curve and with an eye towards resilience. No Ipad or Iphone for me, and now that I see the assholes have been tracking them via gps, I am glad for that choice. I have a “dumbass” cellphone-it is convenient on the roads and trails, but if you want to email me me, wait till I get home. Took my almost 4 year old and 4-7 year old granddaughters ice fishing last night-they got bored, but hopefully they learned something.

    Howard-I agree that “crushed” is a pretty extreme description of how the Silents treated the Boomers. Seems to me boomers as group got “crushed” pretty easily and, yes, “sold out” pretty cheap.

    llpoh-sorry if this encourages RE, but he made some pretty good points and I’d like to see him address Howard’s questions my own self. Besides, I’ a sucker for that “Live Fast…” James Dean quote. I used to live it myself, but dying young, well, that ship has sailed. Nowadays, I’m more like that Hank Jr. tune “All my rowdy friends have settled down”.

  42. Thanks AKA.

    I am working on a reply to Howie’s questions right now, I will be posting it up tomorrow. Needless to say, its not short. However, unless you are retarded you should be able to read it in 10 minutes or so. LOL.


  43. I never denied being retarded. Re high-tech, I am a self proclaimed “E-tard” (copyright pending). Swear to God, when my 3 yr old little asks me to help her w/ games on her mother’s Iphone, I tell her to ask her big sister. Never played a video game-the old ones made me sick to even watch. But I got through a couple engineering degrees, can’t be too dumb, I guess. But I’m just not into electronics. I can still read-bring it on!

  44. @AKA

    I was directing that dig at LLPOH of course, not you 🙂

    In reality, I am quite sure most of the people who read this website have no problem whatsoever with the length of my posts. Its a smart bunch here overall, and you all read far more than I write on daily basis cruising across the blogosphere. LLPOH has no problem reading through these posts, I am quite sure he can read just as fast as I do. He puts my posting length up as a Strawman argument when he does not want to compete with me on this playing field, because he cannot. He is quite correct in saying I will put up a Wall of Words in a debate, I can shoot out words faster than the FSofA military can shoot bullets. If you do not have the Chops to play this game with me, this is your problem, not my problem. I know also that LLPOHs criticism that I write Volume without Quality is not valid either, because if the quality was not there I would not get you or Howie to ask me to further elaborate on what I am theorizing. If I was writing crap, smart guys like you would not ask me to do that. So, basically LLPOH is full of shit and just cannot compete with me here, so he does his best attempt at trolling and making excuses for his inadequacy. Pitiful really. LOL.


  45. RE – compared to me you are a mental midget. As ever, you hide rather than put forth a succinct position, then claim victory based on volume. I responded to your article in a straight forward way, and you responded with a comment longer than the article. Fuck that. How about using some basics of writing – intro/body/summary? Paragraphs that are to the point? Quit channeling Tosltoy/Faulkner/Joyce and go for Hemingway for a while. But it is too hard for you as you turn to length when you have no legit argument. People aren’t so stupid as to not see that.

  46. Stepping over the monkey turds to agree with Howard and await the post on RFK.

    If anyone ever had any doubts about the dark forces really in charge, the three assassinations should have settled their hash. And I’ve got yer “lone gunman” right here.

  47. “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Ephesians 6:12

  48. “Even Flash and Plubius are not Full Doomers, because both believe the Illuminati will be able to maintain control in perpetuity. ‘

    Humanity is doomed at birth due to the fallen nature of man. A weak spirit leads to an ease of corruptibilit which grants the sociopath a path to power in all cases of contested power.

    Regardless the state of affairs there always be some form of central control a la’ Alexanders Greece or Trajan’s Rome.
    By now it should be obvious to even a Dancing With Stars bot that International banksters are consolidating power on an unprecedented scale which will fuel a coming paradigm shift in global politics.Read one government , one currency. The plan is in place.It will be implemented in out lifetime
    That’s said, the only reamining hope is divine intervention s with extreme prejudice in the affairs of man by a supernatural being.
    Humans have proven time and again again that we cannot be trusted with authority over our fellow man as evidenced by the genocidal maniacs masquerading as ” authority ” throughout the annuls of history.
    I guess this places me in the short term doom , long term hope camp.
    Plastic and paper will never fill that void in the souls of those seeking happiness in hedonistic materialism.

    Ecclesiastes 1:9 (New International Version, ©2011)

    9 What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun.

    “If leaders are serious about creating new global responsibilities or governance, let them start by modernising multilateralism to empower the WTO, the IMF, and the World Bank Group to monitor national policies.”World Bank President Robert Zoellick

  49. I wonder what the “civilization should collapse” crowd thinks will happen to the 400 nuclear reactors around the world once we go back to a medieval/Mad Max situation? These are literally Doomsday Machines that will ALL MELT DOWN once the Techno Priesthood that maintains them is gone.

  50. From my side as a Full Doomer, I’m not really concerned with Obama-care or Ron Paul’s Presidential bid. I know Obama-care cannot work -RE

    I guess that depends on what one thinks Obama-care really is. If you listen to pundits its government taking over private medical care. If you take the time to look into things the lobbyists have employed a duplicitous campaign and what Obama-care really is is the subsidizing of big private insurance.

    IE The creation of too big to fail private medical insurance. It wont fail because it, like Wall street, will be bailed out.

  51. These are literally Doomsday Machines that will ALL MELT DOWN once the Techno Priesthood that maintains them is gone. -Speed

    IIRC in Genesis we find taking from the tree of tov wa-ra (hebrew for [knowledge of] everything) would cause Adam [mankind] to die.

    Thats a very loose interpretation of scripture but the fact is certain knowledge can be deadly even with good intent.

  52. @speed

    The spent fuel Nuke problem is one I hadn’t ever thought of before Fuk-U-shima.

    What I imagine will be done is before the grid goes down completely hopefully all the fuel will be taken to a very dry desert location and left to melt down. This way it should be a long time before the stuff makes it into the water cycle. Of course, any gaseous radionucleides would still percolate out into the atmosphere but hopefully that is not so much as to overly irradiate the food supply.

    Another option would be to take the fuel by container ship over the Marianas Trench and drop it. The fuel would be cooled by the ocean, and would of course create a dead zone in its location, but not much really lives down that deep anyhow due to lack of light and lack of oxygen. There are som weird forms of life that live near deep volcanoes though.

    Problem with this one is the fuel will gradually dissolve and be dispersed through the ocean, but again hopefully once dispersed this way the additional radiation in the environment doesn’t mess up the food chain too badly.

    Only other option would be as long as we have enough energy resource to build real big Booster Rockets, we start firing the stuff off into space on a collision course with the Sun, which is where all the radioactive materials can find a happy home with others of their kind. However, I don’t know how many tons of the stuff we have in spent pools worldwide, and how many rocket boosters it would take to push all the stuff out of Earth Orbit. Then the other problem of a rocket malfunction at some point.

    Anyhow, the best option to me seems to be the desert. Saudi Arabia after the last of the Oil has been sucked dry seems like a good location.


    1. Can someone explain to me why we spent billions on a facility for used nuclear waste in Nevada and then pulled the plug?

  53. @llpoh

    I am going to try to keep this civil.

    In reality by debate standards of say your typical Legal Brief, the stuff I write just isn’t that long. It doesn’t take that long to read it either. I write in as much depth as I think is necessary to makkke my arguments. I don’t think you or anybody else here has any difficulty reading 1500-5000 words on any topic at all.

    Whenever you don’t want to address the arguments I make, you always retreat to criticizing them for their length and style. Thing is most of the readership here, be it Howie or AKA or Surly et all doesn’t have much problem with either the length or the style. So if you want to respond to the arguments and make your case, you have to deal with how I make my case. Rather than do that though, you just start pitching Napalm all over the thread.

    Anyhow, the RFK post is written and will get uploaded when I make it over to the internet cafe.


  54. @admin

    I am going to take a WAG on that one.

    You know how there has been speculation that some of the explosions at Fuk-U-shima #3 were not Hydrogen combustion but “Prompt Criticality” events? This is where enough of the fuel gets together to get a fast moving chain reaction going and instead of just melting you get a small nuclear explosion.

    The problem with the Nevada Nuke Waste Dump is maybe it won’t work. Do you really want to put al that spent fuel in one location, turn off the cooling pumps and wait to see what happens? Perhaps at some point iin the building process of said dump, some Physicist brought up this little problem and they had second thoughts about actually moving all the fuel over there.

    Going back to the beginnings of Nuclear Energy, I don’t think the physicists ever came up with a very good solution to the spent fuel problem, which is why all these reactors have all the spent fuel sitting in pools of water on their property. After 50 years of Nuke Power, they have worked up a pretty hefty amount of this stuff, and have no good way to get rid of it.


    1. But RE. It’s only Nevada. It’s a decadent state and 90% of the homeowners are underwater anyway. So we lose Axel. A small price to pay.

    1. English Rose is the LLPOO Doppelganger.

      Didn’t you just love the inbred royal wedding? I was all a twitter over her dress. I bet you are still on a royal high.

  55. llpoh said earlier “RE – the mistake you make is to presume you know what you in fact do not know. You presume to know for certain that the energy situation will not be resolved. It is the cornerstone of your doomsday scenario. If the energy issue is overcome, the rest of your scenario disintegrates. It is the mistake of the ages….” amongst other things.

    RE answerewd with the “Blame the silents” post… a lengthy piece with multiple tangents that would have been better suited for the “Few Dollars” post wherein such would be lambasted and picked apart as just another boomer excuse.

    llpoh: The lengthy post which RE supposes was an answer to your simple question did not contain any answer to your question at all… you are correct in the fact that it was a mountain of verbal irrelevance to the question at hand. Typical Illuminati sidestepping of direct questioning.

    At least you tried, and I commend you for the olive-branch.

    RE: You shit on any opportunity for civil discourse when you get all butt-hurt at the slightest of criticism. This post was actually open-minded at first, but you can’t get over the fact that your answers, being lengthy, are dilluted at best.

    Dammit I have papers to write but your unchecked passive-aggressive commentary leaves me no choice but to give my dos centavos. You’re distracting me from important work, Pig Man, and I will not forget this.

  56. Jim: I assume your question about Yucca Mountain is purely rhetorical. It’s by far the most suitable waste storage location in the lower 48. The remaining doubts about it are far into the metaphysical category, not anything meaningful among intelligent rational people. But it’s the NIMBY factor writ large, with asshole Reid able to block it through his political position. Nothing more to it than that.

    1. Persnickety

      I was serious. I thought it seemed like the best, safest alternative for the country. I was really irritatated that we had spent billions and then pulling the plug.

  57. One more point I would like to make on the length issue of my posts.

    I know most of you went to college, although it seems like the preponderance of people here got their degrees in IT, Engineering, Accounting and Medicine, so perhaps you never had to write a college paper.

    Typically you have to write a 10 page paper a week in Contemporary Civilizations, and another one for Humanitie, at least that was what I had to do. So that is 20 pages every week.

    Not in words, but how long in pages do my posts run? 4-5 pages usually. My daily rants come out roughly every other day for about 3 per week. So I am writing about 15 pages a week, up it to 25 with the responses I make inside the comments. I’m not writing much more than I did in College.

    The length issue of my posting is a total Strawman argument. The style aspect has more validity, since this isn’t generally the style you use for a college paper, but I feel it cconveys my message best so that is how I write it.


  58. @Admin

    I have no problem with sacrificing Nevada, but the Fuk-U-Shima problems have really got me curious about how they plan to package up the spent fuel so that without any cooling mechanism it would not melt its way through its container? If they could package it up that way, why are they storing it all under water in those pools, which take a lot of power to run?

    I would like to see tests run of small amounts of this spent fuel placed in containers on their current sites with no cooling pools. Until it is demonstrated that said containers actually can maintain their integrity, I sure wouldn’t put them all together under one mountain. Eventually you could get one very LARGE Prompt Critcality.

    Now, on the conspiracy theory level, in order to build Nuke Plants there had to be some way proposed to get rid of the spent fuel. So they start building this deal in Nevada, but they know it really cannot work. So they enlist the Senator and call it a NIMBY issue.

    This fits the evidence we have here best. I don’t think most people really care about what we drop into the desert. However, nowhere is spent fuel stored in dry storage containers, even at the facilities which produce the spent fuel. So why would it work in Nevada?


  59. It’s not just the spent fuel/waste. The reactor itself, even when shut down, has to be constantly monitored and pampered. Decommissioning a nuclear reactor can take 10 to 20 years. You don’t just hit the “off” switch and walk away from one, so if Peak Oil hit and a total economic collapse spread around the world, how long would nuclear plant workers be able to keep showing up at their jobs? What if the electrical grid went down, the water for the cooling system was shut off, and they couldn’t truck in fuel for the backup generators anymore? If there’s rioting and looting going on, etc, those nuke plants will soon be abandoned.

    And let’s not even get into the hydroelectric dams, chemical factories, toxic waste dumps, dams holding back mine tailings, nuclear weapons sites, hazardous medical waste, scientific labs full of viruses, satellites decaying in their orbits. We humans have built one huge mess of a “civilization” that we cannot let go of, unless we want to exterminate ourselves.

  60. Thanks Colma. I actually read just enough of his “response” to know he was doing his standard bob and weave.

    The fact is every single person throughout history who has taken his stance re such and such is impossible has been wrong. Every one. As I mentioned, there are indications we are getting close to a workable wave energy generator. Would that solve all the issues? Not likely. But it is a start. People are going to lose their knowledge base overnite. If the entire defense industry of the world were instead focused on the energy issue, do you think maybe we would come up with a range of solutions to the energy issue, I think so.

  61. @Speed

    Indeed, if the economic crash comes rapidly here and we don’t get the Nuke Plants decommissioned before it happens, then we most certainly have many more Fuk-U-shimas possible, and that is a major worry now. Also as you indicate, many toxic waste dumps that are contained by levees which will give way over time, spewing the poisons out all over the place.

    Nature will eventually clean up the mess, though the longer half-life radionuceides will persist for quite some time. People probably will get more cancers and die much younger, with large Death Zones surrounding the old Nuke Plants. It would be a wise idea to move as far away from them as you can, and Upstream of them as well.

    Based on what happened at Fuk-U-shima and knowing that as soon as the grid goes down these plants are toast, we really should be decommissioning all Nuclear Reactors right NOW and putting all the spent fuel and contaminated piping etc in one pace as far from where anybodyy lives as possible. Antarctica is another good spot to dump it, perhaps it will stay cold enough not to melt through its containers.

    Unfortunately, Pro-Nukers aren’t going to allow the necessary immediate decommissioning of ALL Nuke Plants, so down the line here a piece we are going to be in a world of shit, no doubt.


  62. First, thanks to Admin for pushing this FFDR back up on the queue of Recent Posts so we can keep the debate going. There has already been a lot of first class contribution to the thread, so rather than start a new FFDR to cover the Bobby Kennedy Assassination and the 60’s Social Upheaval right now, I felt it would be better to keep the discussion going in this thread for a while longer. Not to say I won’t write another FFDR in the future to cover this period in further detail, I almost certainly will. Lots of great Multimedia to incorporate which I can’t do inside the comments, at least not the Vids.

    Also, WARNING here now that I have finished this installment. RFK was the Jumping off point here for this rant, but there isn’t all that much about RFK himself in here, and nothing about the Conspiracy Theories surrounding his assassination for people looking for that stuff. The post turned out to be more about the repercussions of the Assassinations through the society in their aftermath. So now, for those of you still up for another 2400 words, here it comes.


    Howie made the case in his post that essentially the Boomers as a group weren’t tough enough in their attempt at rebellion in the 60s. They “Sold Out” too quickly and easily. He makes the analogy to what is currently going on in Syria and Bahrain, where the Revolutionaries are dying in the Streets by the Truckload at the moment. By contrast, their 60’s counterparts here in the FSofA only had 4 Dead in Ohio along with a few assorted Lynchings of Black folks and some of their White sympathizers down in Old Dixie. So were the FSofA Boomers of the period just not as TOUGH as the current crop of Towel Heads revolting in the M.E.? They Sold Out so quickly and easily! PUSSIES!

    My response to that is that the Towel Heads are no tougher, and they will Sell Out just as easily, and even Cheaper than the Boomers Sold Out here if the MONEY is coughed up. The evidence of that is in Saudi Arabia, where the House of Saud has kept their population from going BERSERK by forking over MONEY to the Hoi Polloi, some $30B to keep their bellies full here out of their Oil Wealth. If the Syrians had the Money the Saudis do, they could buy off their population also, just they do not have the MONEY to do that.

    Back in the 60s, our Ruling Oligarchy was even RICHER relatively speaking than the House of Saud, and they probably still are. To buy off the Boomers they forked over a HUGE amount of Cash to the impoverished here, in the form of the Great Society Programs. Of course they did not fork over their OWN money, but rather the Tax money of the Middle Class for the most part, but they still did fork over a shitload of money to the folks who ALWAYS are at the forefront of the class warfare Battle Lines, the really Poor folks. Middle Class folks don’t for the most part go out into the Streets and RIOT. Only folks with NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE go out to Riot and get their heads busted and eyes and lungs filled with Tear Gas. The White Kids who went out on the College Campuses weren’t the TRULY POOR for the most part, but they did sympathize with the truly poor and they were not convinced that they were going to do much better than that at the time. Once they WERE convinced of that, this bunch Folded pretty quick and Hippies turned into Yuppies. They Sold Out, clearly. They also will now PAY for Selling Out, dearly. What goes around, comes around, and Eternal Justice cannot be denied.
    Mainly at that time, most of the REALLY poor folks were Black, but there were also lots of young White folks who were pretty poor also without a lot of Opportunity. Those were the folks hitching their way to the Haight in the Summer of Love in 1969. To buy them off, access to a College Education was expanded through Goobermint backed Student Loans, women were convinced through the Women’s Liberation movement to go to Work, and a series of Financial Bubbles were created to provide work opportunities for all these folks. In fact though, real Wealth was not created, we were still LOSING money because to maintain all of this we had become a net a Oil Importer. Gold reserves were draining out as a result, so we soon were forced to go off the Gold Standard under the Rule of the Republican POTUS Tricky Dicky Nixon to continue the Illusion of Wealth creation through ever expanding Debt. This covers the period from 1970 to today.
    Anyhow, it wasn’t all that hard to Buy Off the Young Boomers of the era , but its not really that hard to buy off ANYBODY, if you have the MONEY to do it with. The Saudis do have the money, at least for right now they do long as they still have Oil to export and somebody to buy it with money that works to buy anything.

    Now, when I said in my previous post that the Boomers were CRUSHED by the Assassination of Bobby Kennedy, it’s certainly not the same type of CRUSHING going on right now inside Syria. There wasn’t Blood in the Streets EVERYWHERE, just in a few Select Locations. One of those Locations was Vietnam, where in fact poor Boomers were dying by the Truckload at the time. What all the rest of the Younger Boomers not quite old enough to be Cannon Fodder got to SEE on the Nightly Newz were all the Riots in Watts and Chicago and all the mayhem going on in Vietnam. Many of said Child Boomers, even Black 11 YO boys in CA and White 11 YO Boys in NYC (I realized when you put the date of June 5th up that I also was 11 at the time, not 12. We are EXACTLY the same Age Howie! I am August baby, what about you?) pinned their HOPES on Bobby Kennedy. He represented something to us, he was a SYMBOL of a change we were hoping for. Of course, all the Kennedy boys had their Flaws, as did MLK, but to 11 YO boys those flaws weren’t known or apparent at the time. When these two symbols got gunned down in 1968, something just as important as life itself got crushed. HOPE got crushed.
    In the ensuing period, with the Great Society programs taking effect, the Black folks in the inner cities quieted down and stopped rioting. Young white folks took out the new Guaranteed Student Loans to go to College, Black kids with lower grades and SAT scores got into good Universities and Law and Med Skules ahead of more qualified White kids through Affirmative Action. I KNOW this was true, I LIVED through that time, and I had a few White friends a little closer to the center of the SAT Bell Curve who did not make the cut because they were competing with lower qualified Black kids who jumped the line through Affirmative Action.

    Anyhow, all of them, the Affirmative Action beneficiaries, the Blacks and Hispanics and Native Americans and Women, they all went out to Work in the new Jobs being created by the Financial Bubbles. Just to keep the same standard of living the Silents enjoyed, it now took both parents to accomplish, but at least there was Opportunity out there and the Media pushed the consumer culture and glorified the Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous. The MYTH that everyone could and would become RICH participating in this culture was sold to them every night, and everyone wanted a piece of that pie. A few people did get it, as a few always do when there is a large pool of money circulating and some of them figure out ways to get a lot of it moving in their direction. But of course, every Dollar that centralizes into the hands of one Rich person has to come at the expense of a Dollar that came out of the pocket of a Poor person who did not figure out how to get the money moving his way. So most people in even a Fixed Pool of Wealth start getting poorer, while a few people start getting Richer. Thing is here, this wasn’t a Fixed Pool of REAL Wealth, the real wealth of Available Energy was actually shrinking while the Pool of Dollars was growing due to Debt, with 2 results. Result 1, persistent Inflation through the time period devaluing the Dollars. Result 2, debt burden taking what wealth there was and sieving it toward those who issued the debt. The more debt money you could issue and get some Sucker to take on, the more you could attach via interest on the money you issue. So of course at the very top end of the Ponzi, the Rich got ever Richer through the time period, while the poor got ever poorer. All done on the backs of GUESS WHO? Yes, you guessed it, the Boomers.

    For the last 40 years, the vast majority of Boomers who were Middle Class and not Rich have been REPEATEDLY RAPED, with both parents working just to trying to tread water in the shrinking pie of real wealth. The consequences to the families were increasing Divorce rates and Latchkey kids, with the State expanding the Warehousing of children in Schools into increasing Day Care at the youngest ages, and longer time in Community Colleges at the far end, while everyone is STILL being Sold on the idea we can all be RICH. Of course, for everyone to BE Rich, TONS of new Debt money had to be issued, and SOMEBODY had to be the SUCKER to take on that debt. The SUCKER was CLUELESS J6P, who took on the Debt in two ways, in Consumer level Credit of CCs and HELOCs, and in Goobermint Debt he would have to pay through Taxation. No Coinkidink here that as we moved into the 90s we got the Ad Campaign, “For everything you WANT but CANNOT afford, there is VISA!” The Sheeple HAD to be pushed into taking on more Debt, and since MOST people are IDIOTS, this was just not that hard to do. Yes, MOST Boomers are incredibly stupid people, but that is just because most PEOPLE are stupid people, of ANY generation. GenXers are no smarter than Boomers, WTF do you think have been signing most of the LIAR Mortgages since 2000? Not Boomers, they took out their mortgages back in the 80s and 90s. WTF do you think ran up their CCs to buy the Beemers and the Plasma TVs? GenXers. Millenials are so fucking Smart they turned themselves into Human Pincushions and spent their whole childhood playing Nintendo. Real Bright Bulbs there.
    Anyhow, this Bizness of trying to Pin the Blame on a particular Generation of Idiots is itself Idiotic. I don’t REALLY think Silents are to Blame, I just wrote that post that way to make a point. If you want to Place Blame correctly, you have to look at Cui Bono. Who BENEFITTED most from all this, and who had sufficient control to keep the wealth moving in their direction even as the absolute wealth of the society kept decreasing? You guessed this one ALSO, the Illuminati. As long as this huge pool of energy wealth was available to push around, virtually ANYTHING was possible, Bubbles of Financial Wealth could be blown anywhere. People with big enough piles of money can move whole markets in whatsoever direction they like, this is how it went in the 1920s, I put up a vid of that in a recent FFDR, if any of you watched it. However, when the malinvestment finally does crap out, SOMEODY gets left holding the Bag, and generally speaking to date its NOT the Illuminati, its J6P and his Goobermint that Socializes the Loss, while the Pigmen keep their Profits. Sadly though for the Illuminati, the Pool of REAL wealth has now SHRUNK to the point that they have to start Cannibalizing each OTHER to stay at the top of the Ponzi. Because for the most part, J6P has nothing left of value to TAX anymore, and the Property he “owns” has gone worthless. Nay, it is a LIABILITY to own Property now for J6P, it just burdens you with more Taxation and you have to buy energy to feed that McMansion and keep all its systems maintained and running.

    So J6P here is going BROKE first, but in reality the whole fucking PLANET is going Broke, or in reality is ALREADY Broke. That INCLUDES the Illuminati, who now only maintain the ILLUSION of their wealth through accounting tricks of Mark to Make Believe. This mirage will evaporate here in due time, and when it does everything we have ever known to be true will Come to Glory. Truly I believe that the Book of Revelation understates the case of what will be coming down the pipe here when this Civilization Collapses. In Biblical times, only 25% of the population went to Glory in a Civilization Collapse. Right now, nothing short of 90% reduction looks likely to work, and 99.9% isn’t outta da question here either. We will have to do a rewrite of the Book of Revelation.

  63. RE: you really need to do some more research on a lot of subjects. Regarding nuclear waste, dry cask storage, which doesn’t require any active cooling, is THE STANDARD for waste more than 5 years out of the reactor. Do some reading:

    In some cases it can be used for waste only 1 year out of the reactor. This is not any new or untested technology, it’s used at numerous nuke plants around the US and elsewhere. The whole Fukushima thing has created so many fucking stupid “armchair experts” it makes me sick. (Saying this as someone with a close relative in the environmental cleanup side of the nuke industry.)

    As far as length, I’ve written numerous exam answers more than 5 pages long, and papers towards 100 pages. Bad lazy professors often grade by the pound, but good ones grade with thoughts of concision and brevity. You might keep that in mind.

  64. “I thought Reid’s presence was among the best reasons to sacrifice NV.”

    It sure is now. Of course Yucca Mtn was first studied in 1978 and Hairy Ass Reid didn’t become a Senator til 1987, but the decision of Nevada voters to elect and re-elect him is just one more good reason to send all our high level waste there.

    Not that it should matter. Between Yucca Mtn and Las Vegas is the far more contaminated Nevada Test Site, not to mention Nellis with incredible amounts of toxic contamination from all the conventional ordnance that’s dropped there. But why bring intelligent considerations into a NIMBY debate anyway.

  65. @Persnickety

    That’s a Relief. At least we only now have to worry about the last year’s worth of spent fuel when the Power Grid goes down, instead of 60 years worth of it. LOL. This assuming of course we get all 59 years worth of the stuff packaged up into Dry Casks before the grid goes down. Do you have any statistics of the total tonage of spent fuel worldwide and what percentage of that is currently packaged up as dry casks versus being submerged in cooling pools?


  66. Persnickety said: “Bad lazy professors often grade by the pound, but good ones grade with thoughts of concision and brevity. You might keep that in mind.” And the vast majority of those bad, long papers go unread. He might keep that in mind too.

  67. december, 1956 dude. just a few months my senior; and you get just that much elder respect from me.

    your earlier description of a personal loss of hope, i don’t mean to discount that. any individual’s personal path may parallel or may be quite different than that of his generation. and you weren’t the only person who lost hope on that day. i have heard and read many other folks who experienced the same as you. i didn’t. i don’t know why; i doubt my personal reaction reflected some generational trend, and your reaction was probably more typical. so i just wanted to be clear that i was not attacking your experience, that reaction, or trying to indicate that my reaction was any more valid or appropriate than anyone elses.

    oh, the aerial riot photo looks like the ol’ hood, 1965. i can’t see my house in that view, but it sure looks like south central los angeles. i think having lived through those tense nights helped influence my reaction to the more distant horrors of ’68. maybe someday i’ll pay some shrink to tease that out.

    anyway, i tend to separate the civil rights action out from the boomer revolution, and you have thrown both together here. two different ways to look at the period. but here is mine, briefly (i hope).

    the civil rights era ended with the big ‘buyout’. affirmative action, massive expansion of welfare payouts, school integration and additional money to improve inner city schools, food stamps, headstart, CETA and other jobs programs (remember CETA jobs–those were awesome good pay makework gigs), all that cash was layered on top of the voting rights acts and the long delayed legal equality and a societal commitment to enforcing legal equality.

    but the civil rights movement was not a boomer movement. and while it was an example for the boomer revolution to follow, it began before the boomers came of age, and it was initiated by older folks who emerged from an apartheid outsider culture. even the youngsters of the movement, james meredith, medgar evers, rosa parks, were not boomers. the high school kids in little rock were barely boomers.

    by the time stokley and SNCC came along, the movement was quite mature.

    in my construction, the civil rights movement began earlier. and it ended with victory. the buyout was icing on the cake (that sowed the seeds of future failures, exemplified by the 30 blocks). it was not a ‘here, take this money, but no vote for you’ compromise or sellout before reaching the big goals. the fight was for equality, and it was achieved.

    anyway, lumping civil rights into the boomer revolution is not unreasonable; i just think it muddies the question. i think separating out boomer anti-war, freedom of individual expression, challenging of authoritative structures other than american apartheid, and the 60s-70s culmination of feminist equality.

    there is tons of overlap. different ways to look at the time are perfectly fine. we never even defined what the ‘boomer revolution’ exactly was (beyond stopping the vietnam war). and that is a much softer definition than that of the civil rights movement.

    i ain’t gonna try to match your word count. i’ll stop here for now.

  68. Admin – many thanks for the article. Above you said “To boil the entire 2008 financial collapse down to one word, it would be: DEBT.” I do not disagree. That society as a whole stopped valuing education, work ethic, honesty and integrity, etc., set the stage for rush to debt. We came to want something for nothing, and as a society believed we had achieved the equivalent of the perpetual motion machine – we thought we were getting outputs without the need to put anything in. It is now time to pay the piper for the stupidity of it all.

  69. @Howie

    Yah, that picture was from the Watts riots.

    Granted as true that the Civil Rights movement in its beginning was led by Silents, but by the time Bobby was gunned down in 68, most of the actual RIOTERS in the streets were poor Black Boomers. The Watts riots occurred in August of 1965, and given the demographic of most rioters is from about age 16-25, those folks were early Baby Boomers.

    My view of the counter culture revolution isn’t centered on the feminist movement or the Vietnam War, but rather on the attempt made to “drop out” of the culture based on Money nd scape the “Rat Race”. I think people were becoming aware how their lives were becoming corrupted and they were trying to escape, but there were forces too powerful controlling the society to make that escape possible. Even the Farm in TN basically became a commercial Tourist Attraction selling Green ideas. Real Communes with people living off the land not using any money got pushed out of existence.

    Anyhow, there isn’t any money this time to bribe impoverished people with, so the results of this next series of riots will not be the same as the last time round here in the 60s.


  70. well, those young boomer rioters got fucking CRUSHED. i think 33 dead, and they didn’t kill one another–shot by cops and national guardsmen. not relevant to our discussion, it just occurred to me.

    it is funny how these things affect people. that riot taught me to keep my head down and when a fight/riot breaks out, don’t stop to look; go the fuck the other way quickly.

    my sister, otoh, was impressed that everyone (big brother, mom and dad, all the adults she encountered that week, including LAPD officers) were scared shitless. the only people who did not look scared were the ones in fatigues carrying assault rifles.

    she learned she wanted to be one of the ones with big guns. she became a prison guard (and loved working in the tower, looking through a scope).

  71. There definitely were plenty who got CRUSHED there, and in Newark, Detroit, etc etc etc. Magically all quieted down though with a little Welfare money. Of course many more have died since in the Gang Wars that come with the Drug Culture among a group of people who have lost hope, but that is another sociological story for another day.

    Anyhow, your reaction to the time appears to be of one who embraced the status quo and go with the “if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em” idea. My reaction was to repudiate it while still being stuck living inside the culture. Knowing deep in my soul that someday it would all Come to Glory. Now that day has finally arrived, and I am glad I did not pass into the Great Beyond before I saw it from this side. Its gonna be a hell of a show.


  72. I agree with RE.

    I don’t think we know one percent of what our illustrious leaders are up to on a global scale, how much damage has been done at the molecular/genetic level or even how to repair that damage if we could identify it. If you think we can avoid collapse just watch the Oppenheimer video again ( and multiply that by all the people involved in genetic engineering/molecular biology/biological weapons development/etc.

    Then look around and realize that this current world is what has been done on the UPSIDE of our development with the best controls in place and no major geopolitical conflict. Imagine it on the downside with people who have no idea what they are doing looting/destroying facilities which contain God knows what inside.

    I seriously hope ‘they’ have a plan but it is looking more and more like a clusterfuck from where I sit.

  73. RE sed: Anyhow, your reaction to the time appears to be of one who embraced the status quo and go with the “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” idea.

    basically. my parents, uncles and aunts, and their peers, had negotiated a system of limited opportunity (not zero opportunity) in the 1930s, 40s and 50s (in the northeast us and in cali). i respected how difficult it was for them, compared to the much greater opportunity and fewer obstacles in my path. my path looked easy by contrast. why fight it? even the anti-war fight was over by the time i hit high school.

    (no way was i going to nam. dad was not happy about this. fortunately it was a hypothetical, as the draft was done by the time i was 15 or 16.)

    tried fighting within the system for positive change. then just to maintain the good parts of the status quo. didn’t work out too well for me. or for the system.

  74. “I seriously hope ‘they’ have a plan but it is looking more and more like a clusterfuck from where I sit.”-SZ

    I’ll go with the Clusterfuck Hypothesis. I think they had a Plan for the upside which worked very well, but other than some well stocked Bunkers for the downside I do not think there is any plan at all. At least not a Plan that will work

    That Apocalypse Artwork of Washington seems about guaranteed now. Too many fragile systems in place all dependent on cheap portable energy to function. They may take a decade or even two to crash commpletely, but crash they will. Unless we very quickly get the political will to start decommissioning the Nukes and putting all that POISON somewhere it will do the least damage when the grid goes down, we are going to have Fuk-U-Shimas everywhere. If Dry Cask Storage in Yuucca Mountain is the best we can do, we have to do it NOW. Shut down the Nukes, take a year to cool the last of the spent fuel enough too put it in casks and BURY it far far away. If we don”t, every spot within 50 miles of a current Nuke is most certainly going to be a Death Zone.

    Oppenheimer was VERY VERY RIGHT. “I am Become DEATH, the Destroyer of Worlds.”


  75. Gotta love the low popularity of my RFK post. 0 Thumbs Up, 4 Thumbs Down. Not that I puch much stock in the Thumbs System here, but in this case I would like to venture an opinion on why nobody likes that post.

    The reason I think si because it is so FULL DOOM, ending with Apocalypse Artwork and a conclusion that we will see an ENORMOUS Die Off coming down the pipe. NOBODY, not even other Full Doomers likes being presented with a conclusion that we are so well and truly FUCKED. Even if you think its TRUE, you aren’t going to give such a psot a Thumbs Up. To give such a ppost a Thumbs Up is like ROOTING for lots of Dead People. So Inever expect many Thhumbs Up when I write something like that.

    I think that BECAUSE I write posts like that and coome up with the conclusion that I SEE DEAD PEOPLE, some of you think that I ROOT for lots of Dead People. I don’t, I would like to Save As Many As I Can. I just don;t think I CAN save very many people, nor can anyone really at this point. I present the very BLEAK future just as I see it coming down the pipe.

    If we can find the Holy Grail to replace the Thermodynamic Energy of Oil in the power of Wave Energy, that would be marvelous. It just does not seem very likely to me, and I am not going to pin myy hopes on such a thing happenning in time to stop a cascade failure of our systems that must inevitably result in a massive reduction of the population.

    Whenever I see one of those Grphs that projects Future Population on the planet at say 9B by 2050 and Oil Demand continuing to increase exponentially, I shake my head in disbelief. You cannot project out these curves that far, and its CLEAR that aCrash will come somewhere along the line. Its ridiculous to project out 9B on the planet when at a population of 6.3B all the systems are starting to break down. You HAVE to look at the Graph of the Deer on St Matthews Island here as the model. WWe are going to hit a point here of an enormous and rapid crash of the population. Our intelligence mmay slow this down some, but not all that much.

    The only real question we have now is WHEN the crash will come, not IF it will come. We do not appear smart enough as a society to be able to MANAGE a Die Off. When the systems well and truly break down, nobody will be running the show. Mad Max is unavoidable at this point in most places. However, if it goes like St Matthews Island, it would only take a couple of years to wipe out most people on the planet, so if you went someplace like the Yukon Territory for that 2 years with enough to survive, you might make it through the Zero Point.

    The mainn question is when you emerge from your hole, will the earth be too poisoned in too many places to make a go of it anywhere? If we don;t decommission those Nukes soon, that could likely be the case.

    END NUKE POWER NOW! It is our only hope as a species.



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