Only a fool would believe the bullshit being spewed by our government and the MSM about Iran’s intentions. They will never launch a nuclear missile at Israel unless Israel does so first. I’m so tired of the propaganda about the Iranians wanting to cause a nuclear holocaust because of their religious beliefs. Their leaders know for a fact that if they ever launched a nuclear missile at Israel, their country would be obliterated within minutes. If this was their intention they could make it happen today by launching missiles at Saudi Arabia and the U.S. Navy in the Gulf. Why haven’t they done so? Because they don’t want to be obliterated. The entire cover story for forcing Iran into war is a crock of shit.
This article makes a great case for why the U.S. and Israel are forcing a showdown with Iran. They don’t need nuclear weapons. Their standard missiles are so accurate, they can actually defend themselves against Israel. The Iranians have proven to be a worthy adversary. They are technologically advanced enough to capture one of our predator drones. Obama and his neo-con friends in Congress think they know what they are doing. Nothing could be farther from the truth. These idiots are pushing the world towards a crisis that could spiral out of control.
Make sure you listen to George Galloway’s excellent rant at a caller into his radio show. When did common sense become such a rare trait in humanity?
The Real Story Versus the Cover Story …by Mark H. Gaffney
Recently, President Obama imposed new sanctions on Iran which according to reports have been very effective, causing a sudden major devaluation of Iran’s currency.
The Iranians correctly understand that they are under attack, and have threatened to respond by closing the strait of Hormuz, through which a large percentage of oil from the Mideast flows to the global economy.
If the crisis deepens and Iran makes good on its threat to close Hormuz, there is little doubt that the US will intervene to reopen the strait.
This will lead to a shooting war for which Iran will be blamed, even though the recent US sanctions were tantamount to overt aggression.
Ed Note: George Galloway vs. the warmonger parrot who is no different to the current crop of warmongering US Republican Presidential contenders:
I believe the US will exploit the situation to attack Iran’s nuclear facilities. But, even more importantly, the US will target Iran’s conventional missiles. Indeed, I believe this is the real reason for US sanctions in the first place, and for the buildup of tensions in recent days.
Despite public perceptions, and all the rhetoric about nukes, the present crisis has nothing to do with Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons program. In my opinion, that is just a cover story.
The real issue is the fact that Iran has upgraded its medium range conventionally-armed missiles with GPS technology, making its missiles much more accurate.
This means Iran can now target Israel’s own nuclear, bio and chemical weapons stockpiles, located inside Israel, as well as the Dimona nuclear reactor.
In short, Iran has achieved a conventional deterrent to Israel. Therefore, statements by Iranian officials that Iran has no nuclear weapons program are in my view probably correct. Presently, Iran does not need nukes to deter Israel. It can do so with its GPS-guided medium range missiles.
The Israelis are no doubt gnashing their teeth over this, because they now find themselves threatened by their own WMD stockpiles, and by their own nuclear reactors, especially Dimona, all of which have become targets.
A few direct hits by Iran could cause a toxic plume, killing thousands of Israelis. A worst case might signal the end of the Jewish state.
It is important to realize that Iran would never launch a pre-emptive strike on Israel because the Iranians know that the US/Israeli response would be devastating. However, if Iran comes under attack first, all bets are off. Iran will defend itself.
A counter attack on Israel cannot be ruled out because Iranian leaders understand clearly (even if the American people do not) that the crisis has been manufactured, on Israel’s behalf.
From the Israeli standpoint, the present Iranian deterrent (though conventional) is simply unacceptable.
Israel’s military strategists have always insisted on total freedom of movement. This is why Israel refused a US offer many years ago to sign a defense pact with the US. Such a treaty would have limited Israel’s freedom of movement, and this was unacceptable.
Israel’s leaders preferred to remain independent. Israel has always insisted on the “freedom” to intimidate its neighbors, whenever and howsoever it chooses. Iran’s conventional missiles now curtail that “freedom.”
Israeli officials probably worry, for example, that Iran’s conventional missiles would limit its freedom to attack Hezbollah in Lebanon, in a future conflict. Hezbollah is closely allied with Tehran.
I believe the present crisis has been manufactured to create the pretext for a US air campaign to take out Iran’s conventional missile sites. The US will also target Iran’s nuclear facilities, but the primary target will be Iran’s conventional missiles.
The US will be doing Israel’s bidding. The Zionist tail will be wagging the servile US dog. Obviously, you can’t generate public support for such a bombing campaign, on Israel’s behalf.
Hence the cover story about nukes and the alleged Iranian threat to wipe Israel off the map, all of which is untrue but very effective propaganda nonetheless.
The problem for the US is that depriving Iran of its conventional deterrent will not be easy to accomplish. Indeed, it will be even more difficult than taking out all of Iran’s nuclear facilities.
Iran’s conventional missiles are probably dispersed widely. If they come under attack, the purpose of the air campaign will be transparently obvious to the Iranian leadership. Faced with the prospect of losing their deterrent, the Mullahs may well decide to fire their conventional missiles.
If they do and manage some direct hits on Israel’s nuclear-bio-and chemical weapons stockpiles, the ensuing disaster will prompt an Israeli response.
Israel may even resort to the Samson Option, and attack Iran with nukes. Words cannot describe the horrific scale of such an outcome. Unfortunately, it is all too possible.
Early in the war, US naval forces in the Gulf will also come under attack. No mistake, Iran has enough anti-ship cruise missiles to pose a grave threat to the US naval presence in the Gulf. Thousands of US sailors are now in harm’s way, and at risk.
We must rally to prevent such a war. Peace activists must now marshal every asset for peace that we possess. The American people need to know the truth. This is a phony crisis. Yet the danger is very real. Now is the time to speak out with all of our strength. Tomorrow could come too late.
Mark H. Gaffney is an environmentalist, peace activist, researcher, and the author of The First Tree of the Day; Gnostic Secrets of the Naassenes and Dimona, the Third Temple? His articles and essays have appeared in numerous journals, magazines, and newspapers. He lives in Chiloquin, Oregon.
Iran Foreign Ministry Claims Nuclear Scientist Was Executed By CIA, As Nigeria Strike Talks Collapse
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 01/14/2012 22:15 -0500
While on one hand we get news from Nigeria that the government and the labor unions have failed to end a labor strike, raising the prospect of a halt of all production in the country which produces 2.4 million barrels of oil per day or roughly the same as Iran exports, we now find out that the US attempt at de-escalating tensions with Iran (following Thursday’s news of an extension in the oil embargo deadline by 6 months – one would almost think Obama realized $5.00 gas may be an issue with the election looming) may have failed massively, and it is now Iran’s attempt to score political brownie points knowing well it has all the advantage. As EA WorldView reports, instead of backing away from last week’s sensitive issue of the assasination of a nuclear scientist, Iran has ripped the scab right off the wound and its foreign ministry has boldly proclaimed that it has “reliable documents and evidence that this terrorist act was planned, guided and supported by the CIA. The documents clearly show that this terrorist act was carried out with the direct involvement of CIA-linked agents.” So the ball is now squarely back in America’s court, and any further attempts at appeasement, such as the embargo extension was perceived as being, will merely serve to make US foreign policy appear even more toothless. Which Hillary will hardly stomach. So we may well be back at square one (only this time with two aircraft carriers in the Arabian Sea instead of just one).
Appeasement Arrives: Joint US-Israel Exercise Postponed For “Budget Reasons”, US Will Not Enforce No Fly Zone Over Syria
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 01/15/2012 11:07 -0500
First we had news that out of the blue, the Western embargo against Iranian oil exports would be delayed by 6 months, and now, in the aftermath of last night’s developments out of Iran which blamed the CIA for the murder of its nuclear scientist we get this (from Bloomberg):
ISRAEL, U.S. POSTPONE MILITARY EXERCISE, ISRAEL RADIO SAYS
JOINT EXERCISE POSTPONED FOR BUDGET REASONS, RADIO SAYS
U.S.-ISRAELI EXERCISE PLANNED TO BE BIGGEST EVER, RADIO SAYS
EXERCISE WAS TO TAKE PLACE IN NEXT FEW MONTHS, RADIO SAYS
And just so it doesn’t look like a total cave in:
ISRAEL SAYS JOINT U.S. MILITARY EXERCISE STILL UNDER DISCUSSION
As a reminder Iran made it very clear an escalation in joint US-Israel war game cooperation would be met with yet another miliary exercise out of Iran.
And in other news, in response to the latest discovery that Russia not only was using Syrian ports to park its military ships, but to supply the locals with ammunition we get this:
AGUE SAYS NOT LOOKING AT NO-FLY ZONE OVER SYRIA
So how long until the word “appeasement” makes its way into the popular jargon yet again.
I more imagine a war with Iran to destroy the worlds economys and usher in new forms of government. Obama could declare martial law and push his kind of thinking on us.
I believe there is more to this “delay” in imposing sanctions than meets-the-eye. Could it be that a threat by Chiner to destroy us economically by selling all of our treasuries at once was in play? Inquiring minds want to know! In any case, I believe that the Israelis are apoplectic..Iran is not playing nice-nice and the yids simply don’t know what to do next. Could be a very interesting week.
I actually said this a few days ago.
We’re saved!!! The US Navy will be using their specially trained dolphins with lasers and other stuff to detect mines and other problems.
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But seriously, this Gaffney guy has had a major hard on for the Israeli nuclear program since his first book in 1989. And Galloway is a complete loon, sorry. Personally, I think both are being manipulated to paint Israel in the worst possible light over this.
Gotta always have someone to blame and blaming the Jews for whatever has been used successfully in the past to do some pretty awful things.
“Ich bin Juden”.
The people most worried about an Iranian nuke are actually the Saudis and the other Arab countries in the Gulf, as well as the Europeans. This guy even tells you why – because if the Iranians have developed the capacity to target their missles with any accuracy, it is a very short step to putting nuclear or dirty warheads on them.
Oh, and the sanctions not coming into effect is just another example of our fed.gov’s penchant for “extend and pretend”.
2012 promises to be veeeerrrry interesting.
I expected HZK and SSS to scorn the messenger rather than make a case against his actual article. That is a classic method of attack when the facts do not support your point of view. I was not disappointed.
SSS should be arriving shortly with a diatribe against the author that has nothing to do with the article at hand.
[img[/img]
[img[/img]
Throw me a frickin’ bone, here….
@Admin: I’m not disupting his facts, just giving you some idea of what this guy’s bias is. This whole Iran thing is #1 a giant PR/propangda psy-op DISTRACTION to avert our attention from the ongoing financial collapse of the US economy and the Euro. So it helps to know the record and previous statements of the pontificators and bloviators.
I saw we tell the Iranians they fire their missles at ANYBODY, we nuke ’em. There, is that neo-con enough for you???
I really wish you would tell me what my point of view is on the subject of Iranian nukes because I honestly don’t know myself.
Sheesh.
HZK
I checked out the guy’s background before posting the article. It was on the Veterans Today website. He is a greenie too. He is anti-nuclear. SSS will love that.
We all have biases. If his article didn’t make sense or didn’t back up his point of view with facts, I wouldn’t post it.
If the Iranians fire on us, we should retaliate with everything at our disposal.
If they fire on someone else, that is their problem.
Did you note in the Youtube that Iran has not invaded another country for 300 years?
Let’s get in on….
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go_tRctLmbcpng%5B
Ohhh lookey here.
We just blinked.
The ginormous drill with Israel and the US has been called off.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-and-u-s-postpone-massive-defense-drill-in-fear-of-escalation-with-iran-1.407466
Hmmmm.
A war with ANYONE, will serve barry nicely. No need to hold elections. We’ll just install a dictatorship and do away with all that silly Republic stuff. While WW3 is going on, that will be barry’s opportunity to move against the American people. You think he’s been busy taking away America… you haven’t seen anything. barry and the banks will take it ALL… Unless we do something about it.
Chamberlain: “Peace in our time”.
Admin: “iran will never launch a nuclear missile at Israel”.
These are the same pricks that sent tens of thousands of children – and I mean children- to their deaths clearing minefields and attacking machine gun nests unarmed. They do not function rationaLly or logically.
You base your position on hope while there is plenty of evidence to suggest Iran cannot be trusted. I do not think the US should be involved. But Israel. Will make its own decision. And they have reason to be concerned.
llpoh clearly not a student of history. Who cares about facts when a good tried and true storyline will suffice?
Your Chamberlin reference proves how ignorant you are. Who has Iran invaded? Who are they about to invade? Do you realize how truly stupid your comparison is? Chamberlin sold out countries in Europe. Are you actually contending that the US should bomb Iran because they might someday be able to generate nuclear energy?
Iraq invaded Iran with the support of the US of A, using weapons supplied by the US of A.
The Iranians did everything to defeat the invader. This should be the lesson. The fucking Iranians will not be a pushover. They will not roll over. If you think the huge $4 trillion Iraq success story worked out well, wait until Obama goes to war with Iran.
You say Iran can’t be trusted. Can Israel be trusted? Can Russia be trusted? Can China be trusted? Can Saudi Arabia be trusted?
Who the fuck cares if they can’t be trusted? Countries act in their self interest, just like corporations.
Israel has our Congress by the balls. That is what should concern you.
Only a fool would believe the bullshit being spewed by our government and the MSM about Iran’s intentions -Admin
Unfortunately there is one born every minute.
Colma. AWD, HaZK.
You guys/gals make me laugh regularly. Thx.
H@ZK observes “The ginormous drill with Israel and the US has been called off.”
Hmmm, and I just got my oil tank topped off in anticipation of skyrocketing prices. If prices come down instead, I will feel like a dumbass. But at least I’ll be a warm dumbass. Oh well.
can the usa be trusted?
(hint–it is a trick question)
@Admin: Yes, I know that, so what.
No, the Iranians don’t get their own hands dirty anymore. They just “outsource” their war effort to Hamas, Hizballah, the PLO. They use mercenaries against their own people. They kill any legitimate opposition in their country.
This lets the mullahs to play “poor pitiful me” to the world media, a media that is noticably anti-US/anti-West in its bias.
See?
There is a vast shadow war being fought behind the scenes here. A few mysterious deaths here, a few explosions there, and so it goes. Even the Israelis are probably timing whatever preparations they are making to avoid being seen by US NSA satellites.
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=227271
HZK
I don’t care what their government does to their own people. That is their fucking problem, not mine. I understand China, Russia and about 50 other countries treat their own people pretty shitty. Should we threaten them with imminent attack and sanctions? I even understand China has hacked into our government computers. Isn’t that an act of war? Why no sanctions against China? Hmm. Maybe because they are bad ass motherfuckers who hold a trillion of our debt.
How exactly is Hamas, Hezbollah, and the PLO impacting the U.S.? Why the fuck should I care about Iran supporting them?
You are right. The U.S. is already fighting an undeclared war against Iran. We started it. We are the aggressor. Has Congress declared war as it is supposed to under the Constitution? You support Ron Paul, but think we should intervene around the world. I don’t get your ideology.
loopy- Chamberlain: “Peace in our time”.
Get your facts straight .Self -determination was the cornerstone of the Wilson’s foreign policy. If you don’t believe that Iranian’s have the right of self defense, then please turn you fingernail clippers into your local police department , pronto…Chamberlain was a hero and is worthy of Mount Rushmore..to bad the easily- led idiots didn’t listen
and further fucking more I mean to post this here.
http://www.fredoneverything.net/Candidates.shtml
Iraq attempted to break off the war. Iran pressed on, using children to attack the machine gun emplacements. Admin says no invasion by the country in 300 years. Surely he knows those goatherders really had no country as such.
Admin shows his ignorance by totally sidestepping the iranians slaughter of its own children even after iraq had withdrawn. Admin chooses what facts to present, and what to leave out. The slaughter of its own children doesn’t fit his storyline, so ignore it he will.
llpoh
Looks like you are throwing in the towel with your ridiculous Chamberlin contention. Come on bigshot. Make your appeasement case so we can have a good debate. I’m waiting for your fact based analysis comparing what Chamberlin did in the 1930s to the U.S. allowing Iran to choose which power sources they choose for their country. Your statement was assanine and everyone on the site can see it.
Why should I care what Iran does in defending their country from a foreign invader? British commanders ordered their men to charge machine guns in World War I. Stupid and criminal. That is war.
The Iraqis invaded. They even used mustard gas. It was a brutal war. You should learn the real lesson. Iran will deal some major hurt on any foreign troops who step foot on their soil. I’ll learn you some stuff:
The war began when Iraq invaded Iran, launching a simultaneous invasion by air and land into Iranian territory on 22 September 1980 following a long history of border disputes. Although Iraq hoped to take advantage of the revolutionary chaos in Iran and attacked without formal warning, they made only limited progress into Iran and were quickly repelled by the Iranians who regained virtually all lost territory by June 1982. For the next six years, Iran was on the offensive. The war came at a great cost in lives and economic damage—half a million Iraqi and Iranian soldiers as well as civilians are believed to have died in the war with many more injured—but it brought neither reparations nor change in borders. The conflict is often compared to World War I in that the tactics used closely mirrored those of that conflict, including large scale trench warfare, manned machine-gun posts, bayonet charges, use of barbed wire across trenches, human wave attacks across no-man’s land, and extensive use of chemical weapons such as mustard gas by the Iraqi government against Iranian troops and civilians as well as Iraqi Kurds.
Come on llpoh. Come out and play so I can kick you in the balls again when you make another dumbfuck argument like “Peace in our time”.
I wonder why Iran doesn’t trust Saudi Arabia and feels surrounded by enemies.
Saudi Arabia was said to provide Iraq with $1 billion US/month starting in mid-1982.
The Iraqis had more suppliers such as the USSR, the NATO nations, France, United Kingdom, Brazil, Yugoslavia, Spain, Italy, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Germany, and the United States.
I don’t remember Congress declaring war on Iran. Do you?
United States support for Iraq during the Iran–Iraq War, as a counterbalance to post-revolutionary Iran, included several billion dollars worth of economic aid, the sale of dual-use technology, non-U.S. origin weaponry, military intelligence, Special Operations training, and direct involvement in warfare against Iran.
howard in nyc says:
can the usa be trusted?
Our government doesn’t lie …G’dammit, you know that! McNamara never lied about the Gulf of Tonkin and George Bush was surprised as everyone else that there weren’t WMDs in Irag…you know that .
And it’s also a lie that Colma knows Cassadillas from rat turds and SSS sometimes dresses as Salma Hayek just to feel pretty…just sayin’ tho’.
the us arms iraq, and tells sadaam ‘go ahead, invade that country that made us look fucking stupid, and grab that oil, we don’t care.’ and iraq does.
but iran is the bad guy? heh. hilarious.
and those goathearders had a ‘country’ and a civilization for over 2000 years, when llpoh’s forebears were living in caves in europe, so of course that doesn’t count. only countries defined by imperialists in the 20th century who hadn’t even figured out how important oil was gonna be in their future.
to use some fourth turning style analysis to the situation, iran had their crisis period in the early to mid 80s, with the iraq war. they are in an awakening period.
hence the million people in the street, protesting their stolen election two years ago, not progressing to civil war and arab spring. comparable to the 60s in the usa.
fourth turning theory anticipates a crisis war is impossible in an awakening generation. that compromise will be found. we will see. (analysis courtesy of john xenikis, he harps upon this theme almost every day–i am stealing it from him because i think it makes perfect sense. judge for yourself: http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=ww2010.weblog )
otoh, while a nuclear iran is not a threat to israel or to the us, but indeed is a deterrent against israel and the us, israel has some legit beef with the mullahs and achmydinnaiscold.
iran’s support of hezbollah and now hamas is undeniable. iran’s name on rockets launched by those groups onto israeli soil, periodically killing israelis is undeniable (though plenty folks will attempt in vain).
how that is the business of the us is, well i would say debatable, but no one seems interested in rationally discussing this. name calling and bullshit is the substitute for actual consideration (i am not talking about TBP with this critique–but our garbage politicians and media).
I make the best dam quesadillas north of the rio grande, no bullshit.
These turbans and yamikas need to cool down and start pumping Texas Tea like God wants them to…
Straight to china so they can make heaps of rubber dog shit, according to plan.
Why oh why can’t there be peace and rubber dog shit?
First of all, my first post was intended to show that good people can make errors believing in the good-will of bad people. I didn’t put much history in there, but what I did put was accurate.
The Iran-Iraq war lasted for around 8 years. Iraq started it, and was quickly repelled back to its own borders, such as they were. For the next 6 or 7 years Iran racked up around a milion deaths throwing wave after wave of children and old people against fortified Iraqi positions. Iraq had withdrawn at that point and had stopped all offensive action. Admin says “The Iranians did everything to defeat the invader.” Yes, I suppose that is true. But what they did was insane. They sacrificed their children in an attempt to punsih an invader that had withdrawn.
So here a fact: Iran does not acknowledge Israel’s right to exist. It also seems clear that Iran supports acts against, or at least harbors those perpetrating, acts against Israel and the west. If I were Israeili, this would give me reason for concern.
Admin takes historical fact and draws conclusions from it – like Iran will not drop an atomic bomb on Israel. If someone else takes historical facts, and draws a different conclusion, he derides them for being “ignorant”. He then also draws a clonclusion that I specifically debunked. I specifically said the US shouls stay out of it, but yet he says “Are you actually contending that the US should bomb Iran because they might someday be able to generate nuclear energy? ” He is attempting to sway an argument by mistating my position entirely. He is not trying to sway me – as I know what said, which was “I do not think the US should be involved.” . He is trying to sway other readers. That is a low form of debate.
Re his questions – of course governments cannot be trusted. And of course I am concerned that the US is overly influenced by Israel. By I said none of the things which the Admin accused me of. None of them. And his comments about “ignorance” have no factual basis. He made that up.
Iran continued to attack because they refused to end hostilities unless Sadaam Hussein was removed from power. Sounds familiar doesn’t it.
Your initial post compared my statement to Chamberlin’s. Plain and simple. I called bullshit and you tried to weasel out of your statement with crap about Iran being brutal to their own people. Nice try. My post says we should keep our nose out of their business. Your response was that this was appeasement. Too bad that I revealed the idiocy of your comparison. That’s the way it rolls on TBP. Don’t think you can insult me without a response.
I’m tired of the bullshit about Iran not believing Israel should exist. They both exist. They’ve existed for 65 years in the same region. If Iran had a death wish, they could implement it today. They could launch missiles all over the Middle East and have their meeting with Allah. Please explain to me why they have not done so? Anyone? This line of reasoning is nothing but bullshit. Iran wants to be around for a long time. They are paranoid because everyone is out to get them. The facts prove that.
Low form of debate is the best form of debate. Plus, it really pisses you off. I wanted you to get so mad you choked on your $500 single malt.
Flash – hindsight is a wonderful thing. And playing what-ifs half a century later is really helpful. don’t be a retard.
Admin again shows his inability to address issues. Again he ignores the children sent to their deaths against a foe that had withdrawn. “Why should I care what Iran does”!!!! It simply doesn’t suit you to acknowledge that Iran is not rational and logical, that they are governed by religious fanatics, and that they do not recognize Israel’s right to exist. Any nation that would send tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands, of its children to their certain deaths against an enemy that had withdrawn is insane. Totally insane. I have made no statement about Iraq – they were the aggressors and what they did was horrific. But I do draw the conclusion from Irans actions that they cannot be trusted to act rationally. You on the other hand “do not care what they did” and choose to ignore that while coming to the judgement that they are peaceable folk and can be trusted with nuclear power. Yep, trusting a regime that has proven to be insane with nuclear power seems reasonable to me.
But as I said, it is an Israeli problem and not a US problem.
Once again we are arguing the same action but with different reasons. At least I know I am still able to piss you off.
llpoh
I wondered about your children sent into minefields story. I did some research. It seems I could only find one writer telling this tale. It seems he is a professor at a university in Jerusalem. Hmm. Sounds a little fishy. A Jew writing about Iranian atrocities. Couldn’t be propaganda, could it?
I then found this little tidbit on a neutral website:
Iranian law prohibits the recruitment of those under 16, basing itself on the Koranic traditions about war. However, the state broke those rules by the middle of the Iran-Iraq War. However, as nationalism and anger to the Iraqi invasion spread, some children (along with old men) volunteered for the Basij militia, often from areas destroyed by the Iraqi invasion. All were volunteers, oftentimes more passionate about their cause than their adult counterparts, and were mostly over 13 years of age. In 1984, Iranian President Ali-Akbar Rafsanjani said, “all Iranians from 12 to 72 should volunteer for the Holy War.” Some child soldiers even wore keys around their necks to signify their coming entrance into heaven. Ettelaat, an Iranian daily, reported, “Before entering the minefields, the children wrap themselves in blankets and they roll on the ground, so that their body parts stay together after the explosion of the mines and one can carry them to the graves.”However, most (but not all) of those stories were really myths, propaganda, or embellished stories, and the child soldiers simply fought alongside their adult counterparts, often in Basij RPG or mine clearing teams.
It appears you might be a maroon. I contend that your Iranian “facts” are complete and utter bullshit. Prove me wrong hotshot.
Fight fight fight!!!
Admin – Congress does not have to declare waranymore – the president can do it unilaterally. That has been shown over and over to be the case. Yes, it should be the case, but the law is now interpretted so loosely that the president can do just about anything he wants on that front. I suspect it would take a constitutional amendment to reverse this situation.
Colma – This is one of Admin’s go buttons. I knew the Chamberlain comment would have him turning purple. No matter what followed that line he was always going to go into overdrive. HZK is an amateur in pissing Admin off. Me, I have a black belt in Admin baiting. I must say, he can get me livid, too. I do not know what it is – as I have said often, we almost always believe the same actions are needed. We just disagree a bit on the why. And it pisses us off for some reason. I will give him this – he is a great street fighter.
Howard – I just realized I needed to respond to you! First, my comment about Iran was related to lines of demarcation. Those goatherders have been fighting each other forever. They have had a civilization – of course they have. But they have had tribal disputes forever. Who knows who invaded who.
Second, my ancestors were planting corn and counting coup not living in European caves. Wish I could say they were peaceful folk, but recent studies suggest that perhaps as many as 15-20% of Native Americans died violentl pre- colonialization. I guess the image of peaceful Indian is made-up.
Also, I never said that Iraq was good, but rather said that Iran’s actions were insane. Iraq was the aggressor – but Iran’s response was insane once Iraq pulled back. For 6 years Iran threw its children at entrenched Iraqi positions – which is why the Iranian death toll was so much higher than Iraq’s.
Llpoh:
It’s true…
Watch out, he fights dirty…
I realy don’t know who’s “right”… I am completely anti-proliferation but am wary of bullshit. A magnetic bomb on a nuke scientist is cool by me, but boots on the ground is dangerous.
I don’t want to be drafted til I get shiney bars dammit!!! (That’s to provoke flash… I still can’t decipher if he was attacking my quesadilla integrity)
Admin
To quote Jack Nicholson’s famous line from “The Shining,” …….. “Heeeeere’s Johnny!!!”
Actually, I’ll start with George Galloway, whom Hope correctly labeled a loon. In 2008, Galloway stated “I am on the anti-imperialist left… If you are asking did I support the Soviet Union, yes I did. Yes, I did support the Soviet Union, and I think the disappearance of the Soviet Union is the biggest catastrophe of my life.”
So here’s a self-labeled anti-imperialist leftist defending the most imperialist, murderous nation of the 20th Century. Quite a feat of mental midgetry. Even the left-wing Labour Party had enough of Galloway’s antics and threw him out of the party in 2003. And Mark Gaffney thought it wise to include this lightweight, lifelong Marxist in his article.
Game on.
SSS responds as expected, with meaningless drivel meant to discredit the messenger rather than address what Galloway had to say. At least you are predictable.
Kicking you, llpoh, and HZK around on a Sunday is like taking candy from a baby.
Llpoh: “The Pristine Myth”….. written by lefty environmentalists… hold on, gotta find it, watching football….
llpoh says:
Flash – hindsight is a wonderful thing. And playing what-ifs half a century later is really helpful. don’t be a retard.
Chamberlain was no more a fool for attempting to stop little boyz with lethal toyz from starting WWII than Ron Paul is for doing the same to prevent WWII and the global genocide certainly to ensue .
Hindsight is just as important as foresight because sans one , you’ll surely not have the other.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana
Not gonna happen, Admin (choking on my single malt).
I didn’t say appeasement, nor did I mean it or think it. As l explained – good people can believe that evil people will not do the unthinkable. I did not mean to insult you – your opinion was based on reasonable facts and supported. Deride, maybe. 🙂 I knew you would respond. which we both know is what you wanted when you posted this article – you were hoping for a big TBP bloodbath. Who am I to disappoint you!
I personally do not think the bastards can be trusted as I consider them insane. If Israel thinks the same – and they have much better intelligence than you or I – the shit will eventually hit the fan.
Re Iran having a death wish – I do not think that, but even if they do, I doubt they would want to do it unless they take Israel with them.
Admin – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basij
“During the Iran-Iraq War hundreds of thousands volunteered for the Basij, including children as young as 12 and unemployed old men, some in their eighties. These volunteers were swept up in Shi’i love of martyrdom and the atmosphere of patriotism of the war mobilization. They were encouraged through visits to the schools and an intensive media campaign. The Basij may best be known for their employment human wave attacks which cleared minefields or draw the enemy’s fire.[13] It is estimated that tens of thousands were killed in the process. Some reports have the Basiji marching into battle marking their expected entry to heaven by wearing plastic “keys to paradise” around their necks.”
I have posted other links at other times.
Damn, I win again!
Colma.-I don’t want to be drafted til I get shiney bars dammit!!!
I ‘ve caught a few shiners in bars…does that qualify me for the draft?
You’ll never get rich , you sona-bitch , you’re in the army now!
Baqer Moin: the key source in the above is:
“Baqer Moin is a BBC journalist and author. He has been described as “a specialist on Iran and Islam and is head of the BBC’s Persian Service” (in 1999)[1] and as “BBC’s Central Asia specialist” (2001)[2]
According to the American newspaper the New York Times, Moin grew up in Iran, where he learned “Persian and Arabic poetry, mysticism and philosophy from his father, who was trained as a cleric but earned a living as a farmer.” Moin studied in the religious seminaries of Mashad in Eastern Iran before becoming a journalist. As of August 27, 2000 he was head of the BBC’s Persian service, a broadcast service so influential in Iran that “even Ayatollah Khomeini listened to it”.[3] He is the author of the book Khomeini: Life of the Ayatolla.[1] which the NY Times called “the first serious and accessible examination of the ayatollah’s life.”[3] Amazon.com describes him as having written extensively on Islam, Iran and Afghanistan.”[4]
Damn, I guess I am not such a maroon after all, and that Admin has shown his lack of knowledge on this matter. I am occassionally wrong, but I think I have these facts pretty right.
Is Baqer Moin a Jew?
Was he in Iran during the 1980-1988 war? Growing up in Iran means shit.
Guess what? I’m described as a “specialist on kicking the asses of people who provide no facts to back up their bullshit.”
Please provide his proof that Iran sent hundreds of thousands of children into mine fields.
Sound of crickets. Your “facts” are unsubstantiated.
LLPOH
Not exactly the way you portrayed the Iranian atrocity. So solly. You lose again:
During the Iranian revolution, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini issued a decree founding the Basij as “a large people’s militia”, in November 1979. He is reported to have stated that “a country with 20 million youths must have 20 million riflemen or a military with 20 million soldiers; such a country will never be destroyed.” [1] This “people’s militia” was established on April 30, 1980.[6] The Basij was open to those below the age of 18 and above the age of 45, and all women in that age category.[citation needed] According to author Baqer Moin, the group “which was formed as a civil defence force, but in practice became a grass-roots intelligence organisation, was largely made up of young boys aged between ten and sixteen and, during the war, unemployed old men, some in their eighties.”[13]
During the Iran-Iraq War hundreds of thousands volunteered for the Basij, including children as young as 12 and unemployed old men, some in their eighties. These volunteers were swept up in Shi’i love of martyrdom and the atmosphere of patriotism of the war mobilization. They were encouraged through visits to the schools and an intensive media campaign. The Basij may best be known for their employment human wave attacks which cleared minefields or draw the enemy’s fire.[13] It is estimated that tens of thousands were killed in the process. Some reports have the Basiji marching into battle marking their expected entry to heaven by wearing plastic “keys to paradise” around their necks.
The typical human wave tactic was for Basijis (often very lightly armed and unsupported by artillery or air power) to march forward in straight rows. While casualties were high, the tactic often worked. “They come toward our positions in huge hordes with their fists swinging,” an Iraqi officer complained in the summer of 1982. “You can shoot down the first wave and then the second. But at some point the corpses are piling up in front of you, and all you want to do is scream and throw away your weapon. Those are human beings, after all.”[14]
According to Dilip Hiro, by the spring of 1983 the Basij had trained 2.4 million Iranians in the use of arms and sent 450,000 to the front.[15] Tehran Bureau estimates the basij peak number at the front at 100,000 by December 1986.[6] By the end of the war between 700,000-800,000 Basij volunteers were sent to the front.[16] In 1985 the IRNA put the number of basij at 3 million.[17]
I will come back and kick some more ass in a few hours. I’m taking the family to see War Horse.
LLPOH.
Put some bandages on your wounds as you have received an epic beating in a short time.
Enough talking…
Let’s NOOK them filthy mooselim burka wearing bitchez!!!
Black after labor day? How dare they!!! It aint’ Christian, I tell youz.
Hey Admin – any more questions about those kids dying in the minefields? I guess I had that right. Imagine that.
And when you have Flash for support, you know you are getting the shit end of the stick in the battle!
llpoh
Thanks for the laugh: “it would take a constitutional amendment to reverse this situation.”
And then, most politicians who’ve violated their oath of office would … honor the amendment? Right.
Please provide your facts that Iran didn’t invade Iraq. For fuck sake, we all rely on historians and news personnel. Were you there? Hell no. You are relying on published info for your facts. Christ – you posted the same kind of facts I have. How are you going to prove it?
You now have 2 sources. How many do you want? How the fuck do I know if he is a Jew or not? As sources go he seems pretty reputable. Prove your facts. Sound of crickets. For fuck sake.
Please provide a link to Moin’s article. When did he write it? Let me guess. In the last couple years. PROPAGANDA to dehumanize your opponent. Classic.
Why don’t you call me anti-Semetic for asking if he is Jewish.
You’ve been had.
Stop foaming at the mouth.
Seems like the post above exactly reflects my point. You are losing the plot. You make my point for me then say I have it wrong. WTF? ”
“They come toward our positions in huge hordes with their fists swinging,” an Iraqi officer complained in the summer of 1982. “You can shoot down the first wave and then the second.”
What are you saying – that because the children wanted to do it, that makes it sane? Seriously?
llpoh
Did you stop reading? The enemy ended up running away. It worked. It is no different than what civilized people did in WWI.
Your storyline was bullshit. You know it. Everyone knows it.
Damn – I have the Admin scurrying off into the darkness! He says it is a movie – I say it is to hide and suck his thumb!
Enjoy the movie!
llpoh
Declare victory in the face of an overwhelming ass kicking. Your storyline of sending children into minefields to blow themselves up has been proven beyond all doubt to be an exaggeration of epic proportions. Do some real research before spouting a false storyline. I think you’d make a fine Fox News “Analyst”.
Flash:
You’re a ground-pounding shitbag and I’d twist your ancient limb behind your back til you say: “Uncle Colma, that’s the finest quesadilla I’ve ever had the fortune to taste, please tell me what’s in the special sauce” before I drink you under the table.
(Llpoh, don’t fret the Flash…. I got the flash)
It was a book published in 1999/2000 (best I can tell), and reviewed in the NYT. Best guess is he was born/raised Muslim, but it doesn’t actually say so, but rather says his father was a cleric. Given his educational background I would guess his background is Muslim, but I do not know for a fact.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Baqer-Moin/103457219708682?sk=info
http://www.theglobalexperts.org/experts/expert-location/west-europe-expert-location/baqer-moin
If he isn’t Jewish I suppose that makes him a better source?
Admin says: “Your storyline of sending children into minefields to blow themselves up has been proven beyond all doubt to be an exaggeration of epic proportions.” All evidence to the contrary! Even your posts confirm the accuracy of my position.
Damn, Admin even contradicts his own sources in a desperate bid to hang on to a lost position.
I do not think you are anti-semitic. I understand you would point out the source was Jewish if that was the case – you always have to consider the source. Not that it makes the source wrong, just more likely to be slanted. However, it seems the source is most likely to be Muslim or from a Muslim background.
How will you spin that? Disenchanted Muslim? Sunni vs Shiite issue? Maybe lost relatives in the Basij slaughter? The author must be discredited! He must!
Heh heh heh…
I have a feeling that the poor theater employees will get an earful this night.
Awesome.
Mission accomplished.
so, i’ve been watching football, so i missed the fun.
let me get this straight. because iran in their war with iraq used children and massed attacks with under-armed soldiers they are morally deserving of us starting a war with them thirty years later. or this is evidence that they are sub-human, perhaps.
and the historic fact that iraq invaded iran is now being questioned.
hmmm.
glad i chose watching football.
Howard – again – I said no such thing. What I said is that Iran has proven that they are insane, irrational, and not to be trusted – and I used the Basij as my prime example and basis for my position. And for the US to stay out of it. But Israel may decide to act otherwise.
And the fact that Iraq invaded Iran is not in question – it was a hypothetical issue based on Admin saying “prove it” re my statements? Just how in hell do you prove anything if you cannot rely on historians? That is what that was about. We all accept that Iraq invaded Iran – we accept historians version of events. But if we do not accept that, how do we prove anything? Admin was saying prove it, even though I cited reputable or fairly reputable sources.
Damn, can’t you guys read? Seriously. Quit making shit up.