I came across the following article in the New York Times:
This article is reasonably long, but I highly recommend it, as it gives great insight as to why manufacturing is doomed in the western world, particularly in the US. The destruction cannot be avoided. Action was needed decades ago, but was not taken.
This article highlights the problems manufacturers face in the US, and clearly demonstrates why large-scale manufacturing is not coming back to the US. It is a fairly long article, and focuses mainly on Apple and its manufacturing, but the issues are the same for all manufacturing. China has a number of significant advantages that cannot be overcome, including: 1) huge economies of scale, a skilled, 2) a compliant and cheap workforce, 3) a government that invests in, and supports manufacturing, 4) major advantages in the supply chain (ie. all suppliers of sub-components of a product are located close together), and 5) enormous flexibility and responsiveness to customer requirements. Following are the salient points, and some comments of my own. The US in particular lacks all of these things. Following are salient points from the article, with my comments added.
– Obama (Einstein that he is) asked Steve Jobs why the manufacturing jobs cannot return to the US. Jobs replied that manufacturing jobs are not coming back.
– Made in the USA is simply not viable. (I have been making this point ad nauseum).
– Apple employees 63,000 people directly world-wide, about 2/3 of those in the US. An additional 700,000 are employed on their behalf, almost entirely overseas, designing and building Apple products. (700,000 employees transferred to the US would fix the US unemployment problem, when the trickle-down effect is considered. Of course, if Apple relocated the 700,000 from overseas to the US, they would go broke. Small problem there.)
– One of the primary sub-contracting agencies, Foxconn, employees 230,000 manufacturing workers in one facility. That bears repeating: One of the primary sub-contracting agencies, Foxconn, employees 230,000 manufacturing workers in one facility. They have dozens of facilities. The employees live in dorms at the facility. (Try that in the US!)
– The average wage in the above facility is $17 per day – for 12 hour shifts. (My average wage and benefits bill for a 12 hr. shift would be over $400 – or over 20 times more. I simply cannot compete.)
– The entire supply chain is geographically close together – i.e. parts suppliers are right next door to each other. (My suppliers are spread out across the country and across the world. As a result, transport costs for my sub-components are quite high, and delivery/lead-times times are long.)
– The US is not and has not produced enough mid-skill workers. (That is one of my theme songs.)
– China has the ability to increase and decrease production in a very short period of time – almost instantly. (I need weeks and/or months to do the same thing. For me to hire and train workers, get my supply chain in order, etc. for an increase is an extended process. To decrease production also takes weeks – I have outstanding purchase orders in place that I have to honor, I have work-in-process that needs to be completed, etc. I cannot compete on speed.)
– They give an example of a special made screw being made/delivered in 3 hours. (For me it would take days or weeks to get a special made screw, or anything else for that matter.)
– Governments assist their manufacturing industry. (Mine – not so much. Quite the opposite.)
– They are able to hire 3000 employees overnight if required. Let me repeat that – they can hire 3000 fully trained people overnight! (For me to hire/train 30 would take at least 5 or 6 months. I cannot compete.)
– They hired 8,700 industrial engineers in 15 days. Again, I repeat – they hired 8,700 industrial engineers in 15 days. In the US they predicted it would take 9 months to do the same thing. (No comment needed.)
– “The US has stopped producing people with skills we need” – unnamed Apple exec. (Wow – now there is a detail I had missed. Not. He is absolutely correct.)
– It predicts that middle class-jobs may return, eventually. But not for the current workers – for “future” workers. But it doesn’t predict when or in what fields. But it does say that those people already out in the workforce are screwed. (It doesn’t use the word screwed – that is my translation. But of course they are correct. Unskilled workers are available – but there is no market for them, as they are far too expensive and spoiled to compete in a global marketplace. Unskilled people or people with non-marketable skills are in for a very bad time. Skilled manufacturing people in particular are in for a bad time – as there are too few of them, and there are too many obstacles to overcome – wages (20 times higher), a dislocated supply chain, the inability to be able to react quickly, etc.).
So, in sum, the picture is not pretty. In fact, it is disastrous. Globalism is here to stay – it is not going away. The pain and suffering for the middle class will increase, and accelerate, in my opinion. We have fallen too far behind to recover position, even if the scale issues and cultural issues were not so severe. There may be some opportunities in niche markets, but they will not be plentiful.
It will be ever more difficult to start up and run a business, in any event, as US government policy continues to add to the burden of small businesspeople. Large companies will continue to send work overseas – the US cannot compete against the rest of the world, and the fact is that they have no choice, as they will fall prey to their competitors if they do not – not only to minimize cost, but to improve responsiveness to their customers, as it is suicide to be slow to meet customer’s demands. Anyone who believes that the situation can be reversed is deluding themselves. Manufacturing, and indeed services, will continue to leave the US as the Chinese are simply more cost efficient, educated, flexible, and responsive to their customers. It is game over, man. Game over. The Chinese have won and are now just running out the clock.
LLPOH
Thanks for the post. I agree with your assessment. Even with the niche opportunities, US manufacturers have a limited amount of time to make money before it makes it over to China. There will always be the need for manufacturing in the US but I fear this need is dwindling. As the macro environment gets worse, US manufacturers will get pinched on pricing more and more. I have customers that source most of their needs in China and use our company for emergencies or hot projects that need to be turned around quick. For a US businessman, it makes sense to outsource manufacturing. Importing is much easier and more cost effective than manufacturing in this current environment. US Manufacturers are getting suffocated by regulations, taxes, and uncertainty. Add in a culture that has a piss poor work ethic for the most part and a lack of interest to work in the manufacturing biz.
Jmarz – it is unbelievably sad. I gave this article to my partner who sent it off to his friends. Most folks simply cannot get their minds around what is happening. The shear scale of the Chinese manufacturing engine is unbelievable. 230,000 workers at a single facility, living in dorms! Able to hire thousands of skilled emplyees in a single day, and almost 9,000 engineers hired in 15 days!!! I do not kow if the entire US has 9,000 industrial engineers.
Perhaps sadder is that many folks get up in arms, and believe the situation can be reversed. Almost everyone I have related this story to said the same thing, more or less, that being that the Chinese are perpetrating slavery and we cannot allow it and if we make them stop and behave like we do, all will be well. And just what the fuck are we supposed to do to make them stop behaving as they do? It is never going to happen. It is the reality that exists. We believe that the economic world can be run in a kind, gentle fashion, with rules, regs, OSHA, overtime payments, vacation and sick leave, etc etc etc. The Chinese believe no such thing, at least at this point. By the time they evolve, they will have consumed all of the kinder, gentler entities. Wolves eat sheep – and at the moment we are sheep, and the government has even shackled us to keep us from running away.
Change we can believe in!
Our poor children, look at what we have done to them, grandchildren too.
As a country we have failed them.
LLPOH
Suppose… And I am not saying this SHOULD happen…. Or could, for that matter.
Our government imposed taxes on anything coming into this country from places like china? Not some piddly 50% increase in price, something ridiculous like 1000% price increases.
Or since we are playing pretend…. Suppose…
Folks stopped buying shit that was made in china. What if the average joe gave Apple the finger and stopped buying their shit.
What do you think it would take for manufacturing jobs to come back? If reality didn’t stand in the way?
This is a great website. The knowledge i aquire here is priceless. I am truly thankfulllllll for all of you.
From a not so smart redneck
Y – as I said the “slave” comment always comes up. I do not think they are quite slaves, but they surely are desperate people willing to work/live in very poor conditions. Were early 1900’s workers slaves? No – but they lived in desperate and dire conditions. Companies acted with impugnity, and in a totally ruthless fashion, and laid waste to all before them. The Chinese are simply 100 years behind in their economic development, and are doing as all of the developed nations did when they were industrializing – behaving in a totally ruthless and unregulated manner.
The tariff proposal will not work – they have already won. This facility of 230,000 is one of dozens Foxconn owns. They are too well entrenched to be rooted out. The US has already lost. Tariffs can be placed till the cows come home, but the reality is that China has better skilled employees, enormous economies of scale opportunities, a government promoting manufacture, a dedication to customer needs, etc etc. They will offer products into the world market at prices substantially below what the US can, while providing better service – and so the US will be unable to export goods. Goods that it does manufacture will be over-priced for internal consumption, and the US will become increasingly uncompetitive internationally while the American consumer suffers from high prices and poor quality product, and gets hit with retaliatory trade tariffs (ie rare earths, for instance). Perhaps if all of the western nations banned together and banned/taxed Chinese goods something good could come of it. But I very much doubt it, and I guarantee it will not happen.
The US came to believe that a high standard of living was a birthright. This has been proven patently false. Throughout the world, nations with that attitude are going belly-up. Welfare states are failing everywhere.
Perhaps there is a viable solution that can be conceived. It matters not – it is not going to be implemented even if it exists.
Good points but if or when oil goes parabolic not much else will matter. Big challenge will be the abolition of red tape. Ability to get raw materials will be even more important and red tape should fall to the wayside as necessity takes over. I really hope this doesn’t happen, but it is what I see for the future. China won’t be able to hold it together if energy costs keep rising, which makes war in the middle east almost certain. Most problems seem to be education based from what you wrote. Change or die I guess.
Punk – as I mentioned above, there may be some solution possible – government proaction, tariffs placed by the western world, educational advancement, etc. – but I can see no way in hell that anyone will actually implement a working solution. A huge tariff will simply start a trade war, and internally the US will still not be competitive, as tariffs do tend to promote poor efficiencies in the protected country, by their very nature. China would flog us internationally,unless everyone banded together and tariffed them into submission. The general result of that sort of action is war.
Re stp buying their shit -that is a damn good idea. Voluntarily refusing to buy foreign made would probably work – but again, it will not happen. Joe 6pack will buy cheap, and he will buy what is advertised as the cool thing. People are sheeple.
You and the rest of the youngsters are the only hope we have. If they were all like you/Colma/Jmarz, we would be home free.
I’m giving Apple the finger right here right now.
Fuck you Apple. I own exactly zero of your products. I have no need to, nor any intention of changing that.
Now on to the NYT article….interesting nobody said anything about cheap fossil fuels facilitating the worldwide shipment of the cheap shitty throwaway products being manufactured in backwater bumfuck China. Because as energy becomes more expensive (as I believe it certainly will) shipping plastic crap 20,000 miles around the globe will not be as cheap as it is now, and has been. In fact as the cost of fuel and hence the cost of manufacturing & shipping go up up and up, producing more locally will be the only feasible way to do business without gong bankrupt under the burden of escalating raw material and shipping costs.
Now this inevitable reverse globalization can be postponed for a while whilst all the players blow each other to smithereens attempting to control the fossil fuel energy supplies which allow all this cheap crap to be produced and shipped, but it cannot be postponed indefinitely.
.
So after the 21st century energy wars have been fought (they’re coming) and fossil fuel production is reduced regardless, production of necessary goods will HAVE TO move closer to the end users–making local workers a desirable necessity once again. And then all the foolish toys…the icrap and 3D TV’s and the vibrating heated Barcoloungers will be very dear indeed… and not just common consumer flotsam shoved into a cargo container from Shanghai.
But all of this will take time, I think it will get very ugly, and I’m very sure I will not live long enough to see how the whole mess finally shakes out. But it is coming. It has to.
+ 1 to Marissa.
I could give a flying shit about the ipad. I have no need. And yeah, my generation has no idea how much cheap oil gave us what we have. Globalization was nice but I think it is running on fumes, only a matter of the price of oil doubling to cripple the economy.
Which it seems to do about every 5 or 6 years, give or take a few cents.
SSS – I believe you are totally correct. I am not sure if it is millions of jobs (in Australia, for instance, that has a huge mining industry, around 150,000 persons are employed in the mining industry). But it is a hugely subjugated industry – the environmental lobby (amongst others) has brought the industry to a standstill.
Punk and Marissa are on to something.
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cite, not site
LLPOH
Let me sum up.
What we need is an economic depression of such epic proportions that huge swaths of people find themselves so utterly desperate to feed themselves and feel even a miniscule amount of security that they are willing to work jobs so demoralizing and dehumanizing that even FOXCON can’t compete with?
Coming right up.
You want this kind of depression ? Am I missing something ? Sounds like all have given up.
Definitely not the way to return America to some kind of prosperity and freedom.
Of course, I am assuming you want to move America back to prosperity. Do You ?
I have owned a company for 31 years and worked my ass off, I am not about to give up. I have something, that employs people. People that I treat like family… I will not shit on them either.
I have been poking around this site since it’s inception, and I don’t recall ANYONE giving up, until now.
Is America that far gone ? i don’t believe so.
An excellent report, llpoh
(and many good comments, too)
Here’s some trade figures for 2010:
https://www.uschina.org/statistics/tradetable.html
total China exports = $1,577.9 Billion
total U.S. imports from China = $364.9 Billion ~ 24.4%
What percentage of ‘China exports’ are products of ‘U.S. companies’ (i.e. Apple, etc.)? No idea, but I would guess ‘a lot’. Which doesn’t leave much value for rubber dog shit (TM Colma) and cheap t-shirts.
Maybe I can find who all our trading partners are.
The average ANNUAL pay of a Chinese manufacturing worker is $1,600.
The jobs ain’t coming back.
Llpoh, great article. But I do think there is an exception emerging. At least in upstate NY.
Governor Pataki recruited nano tech industry to the Albany area – about 5 years ago.
The sector is booming. It’s an academic and industrial partnership – so many positions are available from doctorate to HS grad.
Factories are being built and expanded in Saratoga, creating high paying jobs for skilled HS and college grad applicants.
There’s a real need for skilled workers who may not have college degree – but have good math skills. There is a real push to train students to fill these positions. Local community colleges are adapting their curriculum to address the need.
It may not be enough to turn the tide, but does offer hope that America could rebuild its manufacturing sector.
Some 2011 U.S. trade figures (goods only)
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html#imports
wildogz
I’m not giving up on the US economy, and I applaude your efforts at sustaining it as an employer.
I have made several suggestions and submitted articles on TBP, starting with the energy and mining sectors, that would give a real, meaning private sector, kick-start to our flagging economy. I’m with you, pal.
W – I too. Will struggle on. However, manufacturing on a large scale is most hhighly probably a lost cause. I have been in the manufacturing game a long time. I employ quite a few folks. But the reality is what it is. At this point China is attacking high volumme projects. If they ever turn their sights on me and can overcome the logistical issue, I am done for. My wages of 400 per day vs theirs of 17 do not compute. That is so insignificant as to be classifiable as no wage bill at all. A lot of my products have 1000 dollars of labor in them. The Chinese would have around 50 dollars in labor. Plus I have all of the other admin and red tape issues. My company has a good niche and there are serious logistical difficulties invvolved for an overseas competitor. But they can be overcome if there is enough will.
No I am not giving up – but the reality is that for most the game is almost over. Fifty years ago about 40 percent of Americans worked in manufacturing. It is now about ten percent. We have lost – pure and simple. There is no way I know for it to recover. It took decades to tear down the house, and it will take decades to rebuild. Just wanting it to be so does not make it so. We can believe in wine and roses or we can prepare for dark days. Dark days are coming and denying it will not help.
That is my opinion anyway. You are to be admired and respected for what you do and say. I just do not see it as a question of giving up. I see it as a question of reality. If I am wrong then it will not matter. If I am right then I can prepare for bad times and advise others to do the same.
Thank You. I don’t do manufacturing, but I know a few people that do own companies. I work in the entertainment/concert business, and I guess I view it from a different side. My workers are my extended family, and I have sworn an oath to never let them down, both as a company owner and as an American.
I think the bad times are coming, but I am not so sure it’s a product of business, but rather a product of government and the police state, and evil politicians that value control more than their country.
It has taken decades to tear it all down, and a new president will not fix a damned thing. It will take the population taking NO MORE. I fear that there are not enough of us sometimes.
Willdogz – no there are not enough of us. Too many are blinkered, as is clearly evidenced by Obama’s approval rating. How any mainstream politician could get a single American to say they approve of the job they are doing is proof positive that the sheeple are clueless. As you say, no new president from the crop of most likelies will do a damn thing. Maybe Ron Paul but that isn’t looking real good at the moment. Woe is us.
Ron paul would certainly be a step in the right direction. But by himself, surrounded with hundreds of scum bags in congress, will get nowhere. it will take the people to speak… make that SHOUT, that we will not take it anymore.
But, alas, the masses are more concerned with American Idol and Jersey Shore. This election will surely be the turning point in our country. A re-elected Barry, will just make him assert himself even more. A president of the moral lacking in Mitt or Newt, will take us down a slightly different path, but with the same conclusions.
We must fire THEM ALL and start all over. 1776.
When we waged the Korean War we fought the North Koreans. But China was the real Enemy.
When we went to war in Vietnam we fought the North Vietnamese. But China was the real Enemy.
When we made steps during the Nixon Administration to open up international relations with China we set the stage for them to prosper at our expense. We made friends with the Enemy but we were still their Enemy. They should be seen for what they are…….the Enemy.
China a communistic nuclear armed menace to the world and an economic juggernaut that will lead to the impoverishment of western society. They are an enormous drain on the earth and it’s resources just as we are. Do we want to see our families starve so that their families might have a bit more to eat. Do we want to park our cars so they can drive more. Do we want to wear their cheap shabby clothing so they can dress better. Do we want to freeze in the winter so they can all be warmer. There are billions of those Red bastards and they all want to eat better. It’s not that Chinese people are evil or something horrible, the problem is that they exist, they legion and they remain controlled and focused by a hostile elite. There’s not enough to go around on this planet for them and everyone else.
China has got to go, or the rest of us do. They know it and they are doing something about it. It’s about time we do something about them. Something like reducing China to population Zero or eventually that fate will be ours. Its about time we quit jacking around with Middle Eastern piss ants and focus on the real threat. If we must have war why not the big one that’s coming sooner or later against the real enemy. Or we can wait until they have an even greater capacity to destroy us. In the mean time they will weaken us for the kill by impoverishment, demoralization and internal turmoil.
It’s not that people have not known and understood what a great threat China is. Especially our military people. Back in the 60’s my father had a very interesting circle of international friends mostly because he worked on military projects. Several of his pals were Americans, three were Germans, one was a Russian and one a Hungarian, all engineers of various types along with a Japanese friend who was a chemist and a fellow from Scotland who was a surgeon. They all had fought in WWII, some with and some against each other and my father also fought in Korea. They all loved their countries and their people, even the two who could never go back home. While they were all friends they had a lot of disagreements and different ideas. They could get pretty loud when they all got together, battle hardened bastards that they were. But they all agreed on two things. The Soviet Union would eventually destroy itself without war if we were lucky and careful and that we all needed to act together against China to eliminate them before they overrun the world. These were not flag waving indoctrinated group thinking warmongers. They were well informed, even brilliant men. They all knew the horrors of war first hand and hated it yet were willing to wage it if that’s what reality dictated. And that was their thinking in the 1960’s. They were right about the Soviet Union. I think they were right about China too.
Reality still dictates the destruction of China. Just try to get our war loving neocon congress to wrap their heads around that reality. The stupid bastards can’t even channel their hate and war mongering in the correct direction. We are doomed.
llpoh~
again, i love when you share your experience and hard-earned wisdom from your decades in various manufacturing businesses. thanks.
Loopy, We don’t have a nation of skilled wheelwrights anymore due to the fact thay there is no great demand for them.
Then why the fuck would you assume that we’d be training millwrights,machinist and manufacturing engineers when they’d only have to move to bumfuck China in order to make 17 frikking dollars a day?
I’ve had the pleasure of working with some extremely skilled machinists and every blessed one of them learned their skill OJT.
Americans aren’t stupid and they aren’t lazy, but no one in possession of an ounce of reason should expect Americans to be able to compete with slave labor.
Globalism is not here to stay. Peak energy, peak credit and peak tolerance is creeping up behind that 800 pound corporatist wielding a 1600 pound monkey wrench.
I see Jimbo has already linked to Denninger’s piece.
When’s the last time you had a reality enema? I think you’re due.
Admin: “The average ANNUAL pay of a Chinese manufacturing worker is $1,600.”
Yes and the Apple factory has been shrouded in a net to keep workers from jumping out of the buildings and committing suicide.
Now there’s a legacy a man can be proud of!
@llpoh:
You are such a greedhead capitalist pig.
Here you are, a big shot company manager, and you are whining about how hard it is for you to run your blood sucking business. Don’t you care about your employees? Don’t you understand how hard it is for the little people to make it through every single day? No, I’m sure you just drive by in your stretch limousine with the blacked out windows sipping champagne and turn up your deluxe sound system so you don’t hear their cries of suffering.
How can you be so cruel to require an actual skill set to work in your factory? And to require your employees to adhere to your Nazi work schedule and rules?? I find your concerns about federal regulations and taxing frankly shocking. How greedy must a person be to put profits before the common good and a contribution to your fellow man???
I am just glad that you will soon be out of business so you can then devote yourself to the care of your fellow man, an endeavor your greedy ways have kept you from before now.
Flash – you ignorant twit. No one trains OTJ anymore. They cannot afford to. Tto train a machinist OTJ costs thousands – perhapps tens of thousands of dollars. What came first – the chicken or the egg. Did manufacturing leave because of no skilled employees, or did skilled employees leave because of no manufacturing.
The fact is it took decades to happen. Government decisions, citizens who felt affluence was a birthright, profit-seeking greedy-ass corps (hat-tip to Hope for reminding me about that one), etc are all to blame. There is plenty of blame to share around.
Reality? I live it every day. What the fuck do you do to make things. Better?v. I employ people and do batttle. On the commercial front hand to hand against the Chinese. But you – you sit there and pretend to know shit – you know jack shit about the reality of manufacturing, all your anecdotes notwithstanding.
Howard – thanks. Everyone – thanks.
Hope – a special thanks to you. I almost went apoplectic. But I in the end lmao.
Admin – it is good to know that the Chinese only make 1/50 of what my employees do. I will plan for that scenario instead of 1/20th. Thanks indeedy.
llpoh
And they come to work when their sick. They even keep working after losing a hand in the ipod making machine.
@llpoh.
I wrote that after I cried for a bit after reading your story. It is so similar to my own experience.
Then I said, fuck it, I’m going to try to turn the argument around and get people to see exactly how ridiculous their anti-business, bleeding-heart liberal goofiness really is.
And where it inevitably leads:
It’s great to know that usually when everybody finally gives up and throws their arms in the air, a situation, guided bt the invisible hand, serves the herd with an unforgiving smack.
A scary situation, yet I am confident that before long, that haughty smile on the face of our bowing Chinese partners will turn a frothy scowl… even more so than Ben’s QE’s did them over the last year.
The global model is far from “capitalism”… and should one even begin to say they are fully confident that central planners the world over have it all under control is, well…
Marissa and punk went over that one.
Fun times, llpoh.
Hope – I wouldn’t wish this stuff on anyone. I am sorry to hear it affects you too. Thanks agin for the laugh.
Colma – not much fun to be had. Keep getting that education, young man.
Admin – potential starvation is a real motivator! I am busy building dorms around my factory and am installing large rice steamers to feed the many jobless citizens I expect to flock to my new facility for the luxury accomodation on offer. How do you think I will go? I am offering just above market rates to entice them further – say 2000 per year.
What a hoot.
Llpoh:
For the new semester I purchased used texts and with the leftover funds, a custom-fitted sterling silver thumb ring…. all with my loans. I took up smoking as it calmed me down after I got a tat on my neck and a nose-ring…. my hair is now a shaggy mess and I cover it with a Fidel Castro cap, with the Chinese star emblazoned over Che.
Flash – no offense, but your experience is modest at best. I did that shit when I was 22 – except the production line was 700 not 75. Seriously – you know just enough to think you know enough to comment. So sorry but you simply have anecdotal experience not a breadth and depth of real experience.
Backyarders, self-employed scenarios are laughable. Those guys simply cannot provide jobs in large numbers in a tech driven world. Jump up and down and scream that it has to happen (job creation) and that we must do it all you want. Some things just are not possible – especially if you take into account political reality. And I see no way possible that the US will recover manufacturing jobs.
As Admin says – the jobs aren’t coming back. Reality sucks.
Alright everyone, finish the sentence!
“I very rarely go to Wal-Mart, but when I do …”
The Wal-Mart shoppers do as I do!
(Free doomer mug for the best entry?)
The Mfging comapny i worked for had 1200 employees, I was just part of a small start up division..
I grant you the fact that I possess neither the education nor experience you’ve acquired, but I make shit happen and never quit which is why I was chosen to ride shotgun .I even told the company owner that I had no experience in that type of mfging environment and he replied “you will’.
My main point is simple , jobs either come back or we as a cohesive nation cease to exist.
I hold absolutely no weight in any deciosn to return the USA to manufacturing, powerhouse, but there are many more factors involved in simply adding up who can make shit the cheapest.
One thing i’ve learned along the way is smaller is sustainable and therefore. There is no way to sustain superpower status when your competition is making your weapons system and your countrymen have means of sustenance.
40 years ago China was considered in the stone age when it came to industrial know-how…we the US have not slipped to stone age status yet…there’s still hope.
“I very rarely go to Wal-Mart, but when I do …” … I get caught in line behind some fat-ass cross-dresser.
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This is a photo from last time.
Pirate Jo says:
Alright everyone, finish the sentence!
“I very rarely go to Wal-Mart, but when I do …”
Subliminal ?..ya think?
MEMO to self:…must get new tinfoil hat,.
Flash – now you are making sense. As I said, no offense re your experience. I suspect you were dedicated and hard-working. Small may indeed be sustainable – if government policy allows it. Government doesn’t like small, and tries to kill small at every moment. Truly. Government is suspicious of small. They think they cheat on their taxes. They think they pollute. Small cannot handle OHSA. Small is uncontrollable. Small must not be permitted to multiply. That is their stance – believe it.
Plus small cannot re-generate the approximately 50 million manufacturing jobs we would need to return to previous percentages of around 40% of employed population. Let me say that again – we would need almost 50 million manufacturing jobs to return to previous weighting. We would need about 35 million just to return to the weighting of the mid-80’s. Holy batshit! As I said, we have lost this battle. We need to try to survive the occupation until we can come up with a solution.
In the end I,small is the only option .
But I imagine it will happen with to a lot less people.
http://www.shtfplan.com/emergency-preparedness/the-shock-of-a-new-paradigm-how-will-people-cope_01202012
A local gunsmith , in a small shop just developed and marketed a military grade 7.62 x 51(he’s Federally licensed) that rocks..never went to any formal school. Those who will,can,
http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/the-right-to-bear-arms-over-10800000-guns-sold-in-the-usa-in-2011_01212012
In hard times people tend to make more of what’s absolutely essential.
A question I have is can China’s economy survive sans the American market?..or even a cataclysmic downturn?
Loopy,
Another fly in the ointment is how the US will react to China’s total disregard on the Iranian Oil/Gold/Silver embargo.
Basically the Chi-comms told the US to go eff themselves,they’ll trade for oil in whatever they please, when they please.
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China’s reply to idle threats…
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Flash – there will be a cluck cluck cluck but not much else. Smokey said the Chinese will eventually call in all of their markers and bring the US, and the world, to heel. I think he is quite probably right on that. China could give two shits about whether Iran has nukes. Even if Iran took out a Chinese city, there are plenty more where that came from. Plus then they would get to go in and take all of Iran’s oil.
I’m guessing the big dexcline started at about the same time that Ecology became a High School subject back around 1970.
“I very rarely go to Wal-Mart but when I do…” … I am drunk as a skunk hoping to get lucky.
I’ve gotten a real bang out of this thread…… Everyone snorting and blowing and arguing over a DEAD HORSE…
Today, India and China agreed that they would honor the embargo of Iran and not buy oil from Iran any more.. Now they will, instead of using dollars to settle the debt, barter and exchange gold for Iranian oil. No one can bitch about them breaking the embargo because we all know gold is not money, right? So China and India can barter gold for oil all they want and never break the “rules” – stupid, idiotic and meaningless as those “rules” may be..
To date 6-8 other countries have now made agreements to trade in their own currencies rather than settle out in dollars. More will follow. Most of Asia has already done it and they are the first, not the last.
Not only are the manufacturing jobs not coming back, pretty soon no one will take our currency for anything or any reason. How about Chilean grapes in the Winter? Forget about it. How about green veggies in Summer? Never happen. Like California wine? Sorry, no diesel to haul it East.
You people are pissing and moaning about jobs and manufacturing when this country cannot pay it’s debts (internal and external) except by printing funny money to do it. Very soon now, Europe will be back exchanging lira and douchmarks, drachma, pesos and whatever. Dollars will not be welcome. Asia will be busily buying from each other and very few ships will be calling at American ports because all we can do is fill them with shit paper in return.
We are totally and truly fucked.
Our standard of living is about to run off in the wrong direction and the stupid fucking government we’re stuck with KNOWS IT – and is preparing for civil unrest and revolt. Further more, NO ONE has the balls to tell the common citizen of this country the TRUTH.
If the truth came out, was believed and faced square on that we must suffer a decades’ worth of depression, default on the unpayable debt, reset our government to one that is dedicated to those who elect it and those who will work together to start anew could indeed do it. Suffer? Sure! Die off? No doubt – but far less than it’s really going to be. Hard times? Absolutely to the bone. Tough going? Never tougher.
Will it happen? Not a prayer.
So stop arguing over “manufacturing jobs” and start figuring out how to survive to come out the other side of what is barreling down upon us and do it with sufficient resources to start over. That’s all we can do. Vote every incumbent out of office and pray if it makes you feel better. Then get ready for the shit to hit the fan because NO ONE, NO WHERE, NO HOW is going to bring jobs back, restart our “growth/debt” cycle over one last time.. This is it. The end of the credit/debt cycle and that’s that.
Miracles do not happen and that is what it would take.
the end..
MA
Muck – I am with you. The point of all this is to educate folks. If they think things will reverse they are deluded. Survival is the name of this game. My adice to my kids: education, thrift, hard work. No sure things anymore.
Muck About says: So stop arguing over “manufacturing jobs” and start figuring out how to survive to come out the other side of what is barreling down upon us and do it with sufficient resources to start over. That’s all we can do
Think happy thoughts ,muck .If you think happy thought ,surely your dream will all come true.
We can all be happy shiny people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCQ0vDAbF7s
If that doesn’t work for you, try looking backwards toward the future..
Industrial Policy: New Wine in Old Bottles
Posted by Brad Spangler on Jan 1, 2009 in Studies • Comments (9)
In this study, Kevin Carson asserts that the existing capitalist economic system is a result of State industrial policy suppressing libertarian alternatives. That status quo, however, is unsustainable according to Carson. Getting government out of the way would unleash market forces to birth a “neotechnic” economy of previously unmatched prosperity. Download: Industrial Policy: New Wine in Old Bottles
BTW, muck, mfging does not have to be TBTF mega-conglomerate subsidized by the state. Advances in technology have made it possible for small enterprise to flourish.
Only the value (or devalue of) currency stands in the way. We’ll that and Big Brother of Ten Thousand Regs.
The question remains ,will people be allowed to recognize true value and trade in reality or will another system of corporatist fraud and fiat supplant the former ?
I have no doubt it will be tried , but with what success?