Hat tip Starfcker
Another night of rallying the base produced plenty of cheers for President Trump when he returned to Iowa yesterday. And one of the loudest outbursts of support came when he made a rather incendiary proposal, seemingly out of the blue. Under a new piece of legislation he would be pushing Congress to adopt, new, legal immigrants to the United States would be ineligible for “welfare” for at least five years. (NBC News)
President Donald Trump said in a speech here Wednesday night he would soon introduce legislation that immigrants to America should not receive welfare for at least five years.
The new measure will stipulate that “those seeking admission into our country must be able to support themselves financially and should not use welfare for a period of at least five years,” Trump said as the crowd of thousands at the campaign-style rally exploded into extended applause.
The president also said that “those coming into our country must embrace our values” and he renewed calls for a wall along the U.S. border with Mexico, saying publicly what he reportedly had said privately to fellow lawmakers — that the wall would include solar panels.
It’s not hard to imagine why the President would toss out this particular bit of red meat to fire up certain segments of his base and it’s a theme which he brought up regularly on the campaign trail. It’s also highly problematic on a couple of fronts.
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First, just to set the framework for this argument, regular readers of this site know where I stand on the various immigration issues facing the nation. I’ve been called an “immigration hawk” on more than one occasion and far worse by liberal detractors. I support building the wall, want tougher vetting of new arrivals and I believe that every single person who is in this country illegally is a criminal and merits deportation if they are identified and apprehended, even if they’re “not doing anything else wrong.” I should hope that after years of writing on the subject that much would be clear.
But I also support wisely managed, legal immigration. I’m willing to look at modernizing the quotas as to how many immigrants are approved and certainly want to see us prioritize importing the best and brightest who will contribute to the country in a positive fashion. So with all of that said, what’s my beef with this proposal? It’s a fair question.
A law such as this is going to be widely viewed (rightly or wrongly) as being flat-out anti-immigrant if not entirely racist. That’s just the reality of 21st century American politics. And that’s damaging to conservative efforts to have tougher immigration policies. We can’t go around saying we approve of people who follow the rules and lawfully enter the country to work on the legal path to productive citizenship and then turn around and say, “but we don’t want you sponging off of us while you do it.” The optics alone are a nightmare, to say nothing of the essential unfairness of it all.
Yes, we’d like to see all of our new, aspiring legal immigrants be “able to support themselves financially” and be willing to “embrace our values” as the President said in his remarks last night. Those are noble goals and shouldn’t be forgotten. But by the same token, not everyone (including our own citizens) always have a smooth ride on their individual journeys. Even if new, legal immigrants come to the country with a job lined up, sometimes people lose their jobs in a fluctuating economy. Sometimes people get sick. There are plenty of pitfalls for all of us to hopefully avoid. But if someone has come here legally with noble intentions and aspirations and they are following the rules, they may need some temporary assistance from time to time just as regular citizens do. (Please keep in mind that I’m talking about long term legal immigrants working toward citizenship here, not those on H2B style guest worker programs. If you are in that category and no longer have a job you should leave.)
Again, people who want tougher, smarter immigration laws and better border security are regularly (and wrongly) accused of being racists. Let’s not give liberal detractors an excuse to attempt to make that point even more strongly. The Center for Immigration Studies previously found that illegal immigrants are accessing public services and welfare programs far too often. That needs to stop. Legal immigrants do access benefits at a somewhat higher rate than natives according to that study, but that’s most likely due in large part to poorer levels of education and job training. We can address that issue by being smarter about who we accept in the immigration process, but once the legal, aspiring citizens are in the country we shouldn’t be treating them like lower caste human beings.
This proposed legislation is a self-inflicted wound waiting to happen. With all the other balls we’ve got up in the air at the moment, is this really the next fight we want to pick?
UPDATE: (Jazz) Seeing a lot of folks pushing back on this and referencing this article from The Hill which discusses the Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (PRWORA). That bill deals specifically with what amount to direct cash (or cash equivalent) programs commonly cited as “welfare” during Clinton’s big welfare reform push. I’m assuming (perhaps incorrectly) that Trump is talking about the broader range of social safety net programs such as the ones listed in the CIS study I linked above. There are a variety of such programs which all fall under the more general, casual description of “welfare” in the common parlance. If Trump was talking about specific, means tested cash dispersal programs then, yes, that would be redundant legislation.
What horseshit. It’s just Trump leading his minnows in circles with a small handful of crumbs. He’s not going to gum up his near dead legislative agenda with something like this that will cause an uproar and accomplish nothing. Trump supporters are the biggest saps to come down the pike since mood rock buyers.
Just because Trump’s crowd cheers what he says doesn’t mean they expect him to accomplish it all. What a superficial analysis. You could work for NBC. The point of the cheering crowd in Iowa is that seeing them cheer a welfare waiting period might slap some sense into neighboring state sanctimonious fags like Ben Sassehole of Nebraska or Paul RINO of Wisconsin.
back in 50s when my ole boss of 25 years came to america , a person had to have ten thousand dollars USD in come in, we also had quota’s per country, this is as it should be, let the left support this non thinkng,my ole boss made many millions , lets return to real thinking and american ways.
Before, then, it cost $10. That was when the penalty for illegal entry was a month or two. With each immigration reform (amnesty) they have upped the penalty and it’s 10 years now. In time, it will be a ban for life.
Last time I looked, it was $100,000 to enter. $1M would get you citizenship. There for a while, they were offering passports to Chinese home buyers. The old adage applies: money talks, bullshit walks.
Ah yes, the pre Hart-Celler days. The good old days.
A few problems with this article..
“A law such as this is going to be widely viewed (rightly or wrongly) as being flat-out anti-immigrant if not entirely racist. That’s just the reality of 21st century American politics.”
I got news for you, thats going to be the accusation against us if we do anything other than stand at the airport and hand them bags of money as they get off the plane, or sneak across the border. Anything done or said to protest unlimited immigration in any form gets the same accusation. Once you come to the realization that the other side WILL NOT STOP until they get everything they want, there will be no compromise short of unlimited immigration and handouts that the left will accept long term. This means further concessions and platitudes by our side are completely counter productive and only embolden them.
“But if someone has come here legally with noble intentions and aspirations and they are following the rules, they may need some temporary assistance from time to time just as regular citizens do. ”
Every single one of them says that, so how do we prove that is actually their intention. None of them are just going to admit their desire to sponge off the American taxpayer, even though many of them do just that. How, exactly, does the author propose to know this would-be immigrant actually has the means and desire to do anything but mooch?
“Again, people who want tougher, smarter immigration laws and better border security are regularly (and wrongly) accused of being racists. Let’s not give liberal detractors an excuse to attempt to make that point even more strongly.”
And, again, thats going to happen no matter what. We gain nothing by compromise or acquicsing to them. Its just like gun control. They’ll never stop the name calling, they’ll never be satisfied with getting only part of what they want. Its time we become the same way.
“Legal immigrants do access benefits at a somewhat higher rate than natives according to that study, but that’s most likely due in large part to poorer levels of education and job training”
Very true, but why the hell should we be bringing in any people with poor levels of education and job training into the country when we have something like 20% unemployment, millions of homeless, 20T in debt, and somewhere between 120-200T in unfunded liabilities?
“Very true, but why the hell should we be bringing in any people with poor levels of education and job training into the country when we have something like 20% unemployment, millions of homeless, 20T in debt, and somewhere between 120-200T in unfunded liabilities?”
What’s this ‘we’ shit? I’m not bringing in anybody.
And all of a sudden, there’s this ‘we owe’ mantra.
No, you fucker, it’s the government debt.
It was used to pay off cronies and other phonies.
You’re saying that since ‘we’ owe, the government doesn’t owe us.
Either you guys are brainwashed or you’re brainwashing us.
I’ll go you one better: Trumpeteers are the 21st century’s version of pet rocks.
The poor souls really believe that bullshit like this is a serious policy position. As if this trivial crap is going to move the dial even if Trump was serious about it. Pet rocks had much more validity.
Its not going to move the needle one bit in solving our long term insolvency problem, which will loom just as large even if this were to actually happen.
Entitlements, especially healthcare, our massive, out of control military budget with bases spread across the planet. If those aren’t addressed, nothing else matters.
I’m a Deplorable
EDIT: I’m guessing that a Deplorable = Biggest Sap.
I think the real question should be why do we need any immigrants at ALL at this point, when we have a REAL unemployment rate around 20% and an underemployment rate FAR greater. http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/06/21/hidden-federal-opt-program-helps-330000-foreign-graduates-get-us-jobs/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social
Immigrants were a boon when the Americas were scarcely populated and had huge stocks of untended land, unused resources ripe for the picking, and an industrializing economy that needed relatively unskilled labor. That ended a century ago.
Immigration in today’s world consists either of robbing your neighbor of their best and brightest, if lured by higher standards of living or greater economic opportunities, freedoms, etc; or of taking in your neighbor’s trash, their detritus and unwanted. Very much a mixed bag, in other words, and one that does very little to improve conditions in the land they leave, while placing a drain on the land they come to.
Many other nations understand this, simply look at the requirements to immigrate to Thailand, Australia, Japan, Korea, or similar nations.
I was stunned to recently discover quotes from no less than Alexander Hamilton, an immigrant son of a whore, who also favored a closed border, tight immigration control, and a 5 year wait on citizenship applications. Sounds like Trump’s ideas.
I’m an immigrant to a South American country that is one of the wealthier ones, though our past gov managed to reduce us to “frontier” market status; we still haven’t made it back to “emergent” market status. The big push to welcome immigrants from other nearby nations (previous gov push) cut them all kinds of slack, but immigrants from wealthy countries have to jump through all kinds of hoops to become permanent residents and as for getting any sort of gov financial help… Ah,hah hah hah! As it should be, imho, but for everyone.
As a “lower caste human being” in a frontier-market country, in spite of investments made here, I sez “fuggem” to those looking for a free ride here, there or anywhere. You pays your money and you takes your chances, and if that doesn’t suit you, best to stay home.
Yeah. I don’t know what this bullshit article is about. When I got my green card in 1991 I was told (in writing) that any government assistance I took would have to be paid back. When my wife got her green card about 2009, same for her.
Maybe we would have been better off being illegal.
Don’t be stupid, the regulations on immigrants are stiff and Billy may not know it but he put his German wife at risk when he put up Nazi shit in his house.
But at least you have papers; your having to pay for healthcare and supporting yourself is what most Americans do. If you had wanted welfare, you should have said so to the immigration officer at your interview so he could deny your green-card, asshole.
EC- You seem unusually agitated tonight. No?
No. I like to fuck with people who sound programmed or are not thinking. I particularly dislike people who say shit like ‘we shouldn’t blah, blah…”
I hear that kind of shit from the moronic blonde, a victim or promoter of group-think.
Using the term ‘we’ is a social conditioning ploy to get you nodding your head in agreement. The bastard writer skipped the pitch and went straight to the close. I dislike that mindfuck tactic..
Not to good at picking up on sarcasm, are you mate.
Illegal immigration & the free movement of capital has brutally beaten (economically) the working class (non-salaried) in the west; their backs are against the wall & I’m unsure if they can take much more. Although I’m not a Trumpeteer, I give him plenty of credit for at least talking about these pesky issues vs. the establishment who shouts down any attempt to push back against our corporate empire. The troubling part of this paradigm is that failing to even discuss these issues, much less than try to solve them, has historically later lead to ruthless dictatorships & tyranny.
Finally, any possible solution will ding somebody and I strongly prefer that those dinged be illegals & those who benefited by the current arrangement; yours truly being amongst the latter.
This is ass backwards. If they can not make it after 5yrs, it is time to go home. If we have to and I am saying that with some sarc, give them 6mos max with it tapering down over that period. Soon they will be off and we can keep our cheap veggies. If you like veggies, you can keep your veggies.
I think the plan is to eventually wean off welfare for immigrants altogether. They either make it on their own or go back home.
I don’t agree with weaning. In an emergency like we’ve had going on for the past 20 years, an immediate cutoff is needed. Also, an immediate end to immigration and an immediate ban on employing illegals is crucial at this stage.
The only federal program I might agree with would be one that allows illegals to surrender and get federally funded transportation to the nearest border.
Lower caste my ass. Make money in the right amounts and you can change your place in the “Caste” at anytime .
We need folks who can contribute not ticks on the system. We already have 40 million plus folks sucking on the goobermnet teat . Do want to add a million or more a year .
I favor shutting sown immigration for 10 years,kick out the illegals and putting troops on the border. Walls are for countries to afraid to shoot the invaders .
I actually wrote my SenateCritter to propose a ten-year halt to immigration, or until the real unemployment rate dips below 5%. I haven’t heard back from him yet, but then he’s a busy person…./s
Hi,
I suggest readers look in to what it takes to immigrate to other countries. My wife and I looked at Australia. We had to be under 50 and bring a few million with us. Central America – bring money and proof you can support yourself. Check out what would happen if you go to Mexico and want free health care and welfare.
Our government is $20 trillion in debt and another $120 trillion in unfunded liabilities. If you have to establish priorities, stop wasting money on non-citizens. If they cannot contribute to our country, and pay taxes like everyone else, we can no longer afford them.
Best regards,
Dennis Miller
Central America? And you a guy who writes investment advice? My guess is you don’t speak Spanish, but I suggest you take a closer look at the Southern Cone or even Colombia and Perú. Plenty of hurdles to jump, but there are very good possibilities down here if you’re willing to deal with the still-excessive bureaucratic obstacles to provide these people with genuine services in a manner that was once the Anglo-Saxon way. Trust me, they want it, but we scare them, given that we actually do what we say we’re going to do. We don’t need no steenkin´ welfare or even incentives. We just come through on promised work per what we promised. This is the final frontier for anyone with the guts to take on what ain’t an easy task. All due respect to Loopy, but fug Australia for those who can’t afford it and can overcome their prejudice against “Hispanics”. For those who are prepared to skip the “Ye Olde Wine and Cheeze” paradises of Casey & Co., South America is prime turf: word!
Dennis – you are incorrect re Australia. If you are oldish and no money, you will not make it. Under 35, skilled and educated, no money and you will. Who wants old folks sucking up medical services coming into their country?
The debt and the debt and the debt, they like to throw it out like it’s somehow your debt. It is, in that you have to pay taxes but how in the world did you generate another 10 Trillion in debt in just 8 years? Did you get a McMansion and matching Beamers?
Is that the plan, to continue sinking the nation in a debt morass and burden the populace mentally with an unpayable debt? Now you can’t ask Uncle Sam for service because, the debt.
Esau said to his father, “Have you but one blessing, my father? Bless me, even me also, O my father.” And Esau lifted up his voice and wept.
39 Then Isaac his father answered and said to him:
“Behold, away from[b] the fatness of the earth shall your dwelling be,
and away from[c] the dew of heaven on high.
40 By your sword you shall live,
and you shall serve your brother;
but when you grow restless
you shall break his yoke from your neck.”
Scared of being called a name? Those days are over. Name callers are just idiots who don’t have a reasonable arguement so they call names instead. We are done with this as we have been called so many names that it does not work any more. a 10 year moratorium needs to be instituted, until all immigrants are assimilated and illegal ones thrown out. Then a wall that was promised 30 years ago needs to be completed and then we can talk about the rest. Until then, full speed ahead on denying anything for immigrants who refuse to assimilate and obey American Laws. There is no reason we should be funding the extermination of American culture, society and values.
Attboy, gamey. I have no idea why people keep throwing that word ‘racist’ around. Go ahead and have your say, your among other racists.
Shit even the niggers are racists. I’m not, of course. I may call folks, whiggers and niggers and dykes but it’s all talk; I’m not a practicing racist. You know what I mean?
https://youtu.be/o9al5P-TGT0
No Welfare for immigrants and cut it back for Regular Maggots to just Food Stamps for 6 weeks for anyone fit enough to grow a garden. I’m sick of paying porch monkeys to rob us.
To paraphrase Arnold – (To an asshole in the crowd who started his complaint with – I’m sick and tired of…) you’re sick? You’re a young man…
I have to observe that the most virulent of anti-immigrant rants come from people who have sponsored a legal immigrant.
“A law such as this is going to be widely viewed (rightly or wrongly) as being flat-out anti-immigrant if not entirely racist. ”
This is funny as shit. Here’s the typical Trumpeteer “conservative” worrying that actually doing what your base wants done will damage your popularity with the fucking liberals. Hey, dickweed, if this is one of the things that made people vote for Trump, then the only ones who wouldn’t like it are…what? THE FUCKING ENEMY, YOU FUCKING MONGOLOID.
Sheesh. Retards like this are half of your problem, GOPers. They are your rank and file/ punditry problem. The other half of your problem is the gaggle of crooked assholes chosen for office.
How about an old fashioned soup kitchen as the solution.
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Kept folks from starving before.
This is so last-century. The modern equivalent is the EBT card, which works anywhere that accepts them (no need to drive across town to a soup kitchen) and has a MUCH wider menu.
Then again, once the Crunch kills the EBT cards, we’ll be right back to 1930s solutions (if any solutions survive at all).
The problem with those cards is it hides and codifies dependency. My Step-Daughter treats her monthly stipend as her paycheck. Even calls it that. So they don’t drive across town. But what should happen is no money or cash equivalents. It needs to be a little inconvenient. Welfare was always supposed to be a temporary stop gap. Not a multi-generational lifestyle. That is what it has become now.
RiNS- Amen.
There should not be such convenience for the freeloader class and immigrants. Standing in long lines for the basics (for free) makes the participant wonder if it is worth it, maybe even leave or for the homegrown FSA to consider getting a job.
How, exactly, is this ‘going to backfire?’
We don’t want these people here. Using whatever tools are available to either keep them out, or force them to leave, is fine. I don’t care if the communists are unhappy about it.
Is your argument really that we need to give free shit to destructive parasites so the communists won’t be mean to you, and call you a racist? Are you fucking serious?
They are going to call you a racist no matter what you do or say – because they know that calling you a racist will get you to do or say whatever they tell you to do or say. This is why ‘conservatives’ have conserved nothing, consistently failing to act in the best interest of this country, and its people, for longer than I have been alive.
We’re done with that.
I wonder if these crowds will still cheer 7.4 years from now when he says “we’re gonna build that wall!”
meh…when you begin a new job, employees often are not eligible for benefits for 90 days to 6 mos. The US is just one big corporation and immigrants the new employees. I would go further and say that if they cant meet the minimum wage level for all taxes that wouldve been collected over their working years (medicare, ss and so on) before coming to the US then they cant come in.
digi, you know as well as us, Americans can’t work for minimum wage because employers don’t want a minimal skills worker for that price. Most grocery stores will hire cashiers on a part-time basis, often less than 20 hours per week, 10 hours is not unusual. They want to avoid having to pay healthcare and social security for them.
Illegals offer the opportunity to hire somebody who will work for less than minimum, who doesn’t cost them the insurance and SS. They are modern-day slaves. I see on the tube construction workers who say they only go outdoors to work and head home right away.
At the moment, I am wondering how somebody who is illegal can see a doctor. The most abusive of folks reap a lot of bennies. Not all illegals are so shameless. Americans may feel secure in their situation but I learned long ago that you need to be careful what you wish on others. I have read about some men, American citizens, deprived of their driver license for unpaid traffic tickets or child support, having to live like illegals.
There are no guarantees in life. Remember, a green card or even your citizen papers are just a ticket to the freak show.
Virtually all immigration just makes things worse. We need to ban all immigration except for very special immigrants and deport all illegal immigrants – we are still probably fucked.
See
and what follows.
Absolutely not one penny to left wing sanctuary cities that protect criminal MS-13 members that are here for one reason only, and it ain’t to pick fucking lettuce. No taxpayer funds to protect these filthy vermin. Put a bounty on the motherfuckers..dead or alive, no fucking questions asked.
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/06/22/sanctuary-cities-protecting-ms-13-gang-members-deportation-says-ice/
Most Americans have no idea how hard it is to move to another country – legally. You need to prove you have sufficient income to qualify for a residency visa, you need to provide proof of health insurance, you must provide numerous [apostilled] documents of police and and backround checks. This is normal throughout the world.
Indeed it is very difficult for foreigners to gain legal permanent residency in the US through the same kind of process.
What has happened in the US is that asylum seekers, refugees, and border jumpers are now being called ‘immigrants’. In almost any other country such people would be carefully vetted and selected and those who were without approval and documentation would be DEPORTED. For real. That’s how it works in almost every country in the world.
I don’t understand why America can’t implement exactly the same policies that are widely used just about everywhere else. Why is this a fking problem?
fucking
Point 1. Disallowing any free money to “immigrants” will do more to curtail their influx than any wall. Not a “Trumpeteer” by any stretch of the imagination but I do not care about “the optics”. We are absolutely done as a country without a reversal of policies handing out money to people that never paid into the system. (And that would apply to most of the FSA that we can’t deport.)
Point 2. @deplorably stanley makes a good point about the difficulty of obtaining citizenship outside of the US. I have just completed the process and it took about a year, the duration was largely a function of digging through a lot of databases to nail down necessary documentation. My reasons were to allow me to work in the EU on projects without a lot of hassle at entry as well as to be able to be in the zone for longer periods of time should I wish to combine business with a bit of wandering for pleasure.
Point 3. Directed at those readers who have either a parent or grandparent who was born in Ireland. I COULD put together a quick summary for those interested as to how best achieve Irish citizenship. (If you do not have about $1,000 to put into achieving citizenship, and getting a passport, this is not for you.) It would take some work on my part to provide this so I would charge a reasonable fee BUT would split proceeds with TBP (I am thinking 70/30) so I am not looking to get rich, just reimbursed for my time. Ten inquiries could be 50 bucks per; twenty or more inquiries and I would be happy at $25/pop. Those are ranges, but I think they’re close to final.
For the moment though, here’s a pro tip. THE best genealogical search system that I have found is FREE – – ‘familysearch.org’. Yep, there’s tricks to using it to best effect but it proved far more powerful than any “subscription” site that I found. From what I have seen of TBP-ers, y’all are smart enough to optimize on your own….really.
I might be able to help with problematic searches on an individual basis but that would be more dollars out of your pocket. Maybe I should put together a summary of best practices for using it as a separate product at the same price as the primer on getting Irish citizenship? I dunno, anyone interested could tell me. I’m just making an offer to TBP-ers, not looking to start a business as I already have enough to do.
Admin has my e-mail and, at a 30% split maybe some motivation, to connect those interested with me.
Admin – you also have the option of asking me to write up a post on the two processes for the TBP and I would get to it when I can…totally your call.
Da P
No welfare for five years, fine by me. Totally reasonable.
Make all immigrants pass this: fluent English. College (STEM) educated or trade qualified. Health checked perfect health (all the family). Under 30. No family migration (ie. no bringing in ma, pa, brothers, etc. that cannot get in any other way). Must keep health insurance at all times.
Guess that is racist, too. English speaking and educated? Raciss!
Racism is fine at this point. They do it all the time, so why not you?
I see America as a big, ritzy super-exclusive nightclub, but we need bouncers to keep all the Andy Dicks out. America needs big, wall-like brutal gun-toting bouncers to keep all the uninvited penniless chump gate-crashing douchers out, lest the awesome qualities of Club America be sunk under the not-so-awesome qualities of club pollo loco on the other side of the street.
Build the Wall and stop giving freebies to illegals. Cut em’ off for citizens, too. Watching hoodrats and rednecks starve to death might be just the education for our couch-surfing millennials…
SUPER CALAFRAGALISTIC EPIC MONUMENTAL BULLLLLLSHITTTTT!!!!!
My spouse is from Eastern Europe. I imported them myself, and I can assure, you THIS IS ALREADY THE LAW! When you sponsor a potential citizen for a Green Card, the govt already tells you they can not go on any form of public assistance, or else they’re deported. You are the sponsor, not the goobermint. And that’s just fine by me, because why in God’s name should we bring in fuckers who can’t pay their own bills? We don’t need to import poor people. We need to import fuckers who can and will do what it takes to succeed.
Considering we’re supposedly 50+ years into a war on poverty, why should we smuggle the enemy behind our lines, infiltrating more poverty?
I hope it gets people’s attention and I hope the left tries to make Trump into Scrooge. And I hope the American People all go, “Hey, yeah! Why should we bring more poor people here to pay for when we’re all taxed enough as it is?”
Fuck immigrants. (I do)
Hell, let’s just cancel all immigration for 5 years. Then, reexamine the system and consider another 5 years, too.
This isn’t immigration. This is a fucking invasion. Look at the new Rome, same as the old Rome.