ATTACK ON IRAN – UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES

I read the article in the Atlantic about Israel attacking Iran by Jeffrey Goldberg. It attempted to be a propaganda piece on Israel and their dire predicament in the Middle East. The same Israel that possesses 100 nuclear warheads. They are truly in mortal danger from Iran. By the way, Mr Goldberg, who served in the Israeli Army, wrote an article in 2002 saying that Sadaam Hussein had links to al Qaeda, so we know he never gets his facts mixed up with lies and propaganda. The article actually makes Netenyahu look like a nutjob seeking his 100 year old daddy’s approval. His “reasoning” for going to war with Iran is based on emotional proclamations about the Holocaust. When you don’t have facts to back up your position, fall back on mushroom clouds and the holocaust. That is the Israeli playbook.

Mr. Wright does a fantastic job pointing out that all of the Israeli arguments for attacking Iran are weak, invalid, and based upon false propaganda. The Israelis don’t care. They are on a mission to destroy Iran. They know that Obama is a weak man. They will attack without his approval and force him into conflict with Iran. Obama, being the weak political hack that he is, may actually think an attack will benefit him politically. When your domestic agenda is in tatters, find a foreign bogeyman to distract the masses. The Jewish controlled media in the US supports war with Iran. They blare the propaganda from the loudspeakers 24 hours a day.

 News stories are slanted to make the masses think Iran is actually a threat to the US. Recent polls show 60% approval for attacking Iran. It is beyond delusional that a country that spends $2.5 billion per year on their military is a threat to a country that spends $895 billion per year on their military. Our military spends $2.5 billion on toilet seats.

The part of the story that no one addresses are the unintended consequences of attacking Iran. Neo-cons aren’t big on thinking through the consequences of their actions. It gets too messy for their neat little world domination game of Risk. Before I get to the unintended consequences, let’s address the known consequences:

  • The US military is already fighting 2 wars and has stretched our soldiers beyond the breaking point. I wonder if the neo-cons are ready to re-institute the draft for more cannon fodder. It is much easier to set up recruiting stations in poor neighborhoods where youth unemployment is 50%. See, there are benefits to a depression.
  • We’ve borrowed $1.067 trillion from the Chinese to fight our two current wars of choice. How many more billions will it cost to destroy Iran. Maybe we should ask Donald Rumsfeld.  Secretary Rumsfeld estimated the costs of the Iraq War to be in the range of $50 to $60 billion, a portion of which they believed would be financed by other countries. Pretty close for a government bureaucrat.
  • The combination of further borrowing with a definite spike in oil prices to over $100 a barrel would be the final nail in the coffin for the US Economy. A deep lasting Depression would ensue and unemployment would soar.

There is no doubt that air strikes by Israel and/or the US would set back the Iranian nuclear program for years. The MSM would declare success and the Neo-cons on Fox News would be doing back flips. Then reality would set in. the Iranian leaders have plenty of options to make life really miserable for the US and Israel. Here are possible unintended consequences:

  • Iran would immediately launch a torrent of  long range missiles into the Green Zone and other US bases in Iraq where 65,000 troops sit. Thousands of American casualties would result.
  • Iranian fighter jets would launch Exocet missiles at every oil tanker within reach in the Strait of Hormuz and possibly block the Strait.
  • Iranians would unleash thousands of mines into the Strait of Hormuz, effectively stopping the shipments of oil to the world.
  • Iranian fighters would fire their Russian built Sunburn missiles that fly just above the surface of the water and sink a couple of our multi-billion dollar aircraft carriers.
  • Insurgents in Iraq would start blowing up everything that moved in Baghdad. Shias and Sunnis would be at war within hours of the attack on Iran.
  • Hezbollah would launch thousands of missiles into Israel and the all out war would resume in Lebanon and Gaza.
  • Venezuela would declare an oil embargo on the US. Gas prices in the US would go from $2.75 to $5.00 overnight.
  • Pro-Iranian factions within Pakistan would topple the American supported President. Nuclear weapons would now be in the hands of Iranian sympathizers. India would immediately mobilize for possible war.
  • Pro-Iranian factions within Saudi Arabia and other unstable Middle East countries would unleash their fury on anyone supporting Israel or the US.
  • Russia and China would condemn the actions of the US and Israel and offer no support within the United Nations.
  • North Korea would use this opportunity to ratchet up tensions with South Korea and possible war.
  • If the oil flow from the Middle East is interrupted for longer than a week, the US economy will come to a grinding halt. Gas lines will form. Riots would ensue when food is unable to be transported to grocery stores.
  • $200 oil would break the back of the fragile US economic system. Gold prices would soar.
  • Muslims in Europe would take to the streets in violent protests.
  • Sleeper cells of Muslim terrorists would be activated in the US and bombs would go off on subways and in shopping malls.

Will all of these things happen? No. Will some of them happen? Yes. Are there other possible consequences I haven’t considered? Yes. An attack on Iran would be an extremely stupid thing to do with the world economic situation so fragile and tensions already high. I believe it will happen in the near future. I also believe it will mark the start of the violent portion of the Fourth Turning. Below is a link to a war game conducted by the Brookings Institute earlier this year. Enjoy.  

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/reports/2010/02_iran_israel_strike_pollack/02_iran_israel_strike_pollack.pdf

August 17, 2010, 9:00 pm

Why Not to Bomb Iran

By ROBERT WRIGHT
Has the Atlantic magazine become a propaganda tool — “a de facto party to the neoconservative and Israeli campaign to initiate a global war with Iran”? That question was being discussed last week on The Atlantic’s own Web site, among other places, after the magazine unveiled a cover story saying that Israel is likely to bomb Iran within a year.

The article wasn’t an argument for bombing, just a report on Israel’s state of mind. So why all the outrage — why, for example, did Glenn Greenwald of Salon title his slashing assessment of the Atlantic article “How Propaganda Works: Exhibit A”?

In part because the author of the article is Jeffrey Goldberg, who has previously been accused of pushing a pro-war agenda via ostensibly reportorial journalism. His 2002 New Yorker piece claiming to have found evidence linking Saddam Hussein to al Qaeda is remembered on the left as a monument to consequential wrongness. And suspicions of Goldberg’s motivations only grow when he writes about Israel. He served in the Israeli army, and he has more than once been accused of channeling Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu.

There is certainly a bit of channeling in Goldberg’s Atlantic piece. For example: “Netanyahu’s belief is that Iran is not Israel’s problem alone; it is the world’s problem, and the world, led by the United States, is duty-bound to grapple with it.” Still, the piece is no simple propaganda exercise. Indeed, what’s striking is that, for all the space given to the views of hawkish Israeli officials, they don’t wind up looking very good, and neither does their case for bombing Iran. The overall impression is that, as Paul Pillar, a former C.I.A. official, put it after reading Goldberg’s piece, Israel’s inclination to attack Iran is “more a matter of the amygdala and emotion than of the cortex and thought.”

For starters, Netanyahu comes off in Goldberg’s article as so psychologically enslaved by his uberhawk father as to be incapable of making autonomous policy decisions. (One Israeli politician told Goldberg that there can be no two-state solution until the 100-year-old father dies.) So the elder Netanyahu’s manifest enthusiasm for military action against Iran may be one of the most powerful forces behind it. This shouldn’t inspire American confidence in such a policy — and one thing the Atlantic article drives home is that Israel very much wants America to support air strikes or, better yet, actually conduct them.

The debate becomes about who should bomb Iran, not about whether Iran should be bombed.

When the subject turns from Netanyahu’s psychology to Israel’s psychology, the inclination to bomb Iran still looks none too cerebral. One of the prime movers behind it is that Israel’s regional nuclear monopoly has “near-sanctity, in the public’s mind” because it has “allowed the Jewish state to recover from the wounds of the Holocaust.” This is an understandable reaction to the trauma of the Shoah, and it helps explain the political pressure to bomb Iran, but it’s not a sound strategic reason to do so.

Memory of the Holocaust also, of course, informs Israel’s Iran policy in another way. “The Jews had no power to stop Hitler from annihilating us,” an anonymous Israeli official tells Goldberg. “Today, 6 million Jews live in Israel, and someone is threatening them with annihilation. But now we have the power to stop them. Bibi knows that this is the choice.”

Actually, my own sources tell me that, though many Israelis take seriously this prospect of Iran trying to annihilate them, Israel’s policy elites by and large don’t. They realize that Iranian leaders aren’t suicidal and so wouldn’t launch a nuclear strike against a country with at least 100 nukes. On close reading, as others have noted, the Atlantic piece suggests that this sober view indeed prevails in Israel’s higher echelons. Though Netanyahu warns us about a “messianic apocalyptic cult” possessing nuclear weapons, he doesn’t seem to be seriously imagining the “cult” launching a first strike. Goldberg writes: “The challenges posed by a nuclear Iran are more subtle than a direct attack, Netanyahu told me.”

So what are those challenges? For one thing, “Iran’s militant proxies would be able to fire rockets and engage in other terror activities while enjoying a nuclear umbrella.” Whether heading off this prospect would justify bombing Iran is an interesting question, but we don’t need to ask it, because the prospect isn’t real. There’s no way Iran’s having a nuclear weapon would keep Israel from taking out Hezbollah missile sites in Lebanon as missiles from them rained down on Tel Aviv. If the Holocaust has left Israelis with an exaggerated fear of Iran’s intentions, it has also left them with an absolute refusal to be cowed.

One “existential” threat that Israel’s policy elites do seem to take seriously is that a nuclear Iran might render Israel such a scary place to live as to induce a brain drain. “The real threat to Zionism is the dilution of quality,” defense minister Ehud Barak tells Goldberg. Here again, I think the threat is overstated. After a year or two, Iran’s possession of nukes would become background noise for the average Israeli, less salient than periodic flurries of missiles from Lebanon or Gaza — flurries that so far have failed to noticeably drain Israel of intellectual capital.

The “brain drain” issue illustrates what weak “propaganda” much of Goldberg’s piece is: America is supposed to support — or even conduct — a military attack designed to keep talented people from immigrating to America? If I were Israel, I’d hire a new propagandist.

So, if this piece, read closely, makes for such an ineffectual pro-bombing pamphlet, why is Goldberg being pilloried as a propagandist?

For starters, there’s the claim that, though he spends a fair number of bullet points on the blowback from an attack on Iran, he still understates it. No mention, for example, of how an American-backed attack (and America would surely stand by Israel in the end) would feed the war-on-Islam narrative that is already starting to fuel home-grown terrorism in America.

But the main charges against Goldberg aren’t about loading the cost-benefit analysis. They’re about framing the future debate. His piece leaves you thinking that Israel will attack Iran very soon unless America does the honors. So the debate becomes about who should bomb Iran, not about whether Iran should be bombed.

And this is the way Israel’s hawks want the debate framed. That way either they get their wish and America does the bombing, or, worst case, they inure Americans to the prospect of a bombing and thus mute the outrage that might otherwise ensue after a surprise Israeli attack draws America into war. No wonder dozens of Israeli officials were willing to share their assessments with Goldberg, and no wonder “a consensus emerged that there is a better than 50 percent chance that Israel will launch a strike by next July.”

Yossi Alpher, an Israeli peace activist and a 12-year veteran of the Mossad, has opined that Goldberg was “naïve” in not realizing that these officials were using him as part of a public relations campaign. As accusations against Goldberg go, “naïve” is pretty flattering, and I do think it may be more apt than “cynical.” I’ve long felt that most ulterior motives are subconscious, and Goldberg seems to be a case in point. Back in 2002, when he was vociferously arguing for an invasion of Iraq, he just wanted to believe that his Kurdish sources were giving him solid evidence of Saddam Hussein’s links to Al Qaeda — notwithstanding the fact that they, as fellow invasion advocates, had an interest in fabricating evidence. Now Goldberg again seems eager to accept the testimony of people whose testimony is obviously suspect.

In any event, his article shouldn’t distract Americans from the real question: Given that the United States would almost certainly be drawn into war with Iran in the wake of an Israeli strike, and given that America would be blamed for the strike whether or not it had green-lighted it, and given the many ways this would be bad for national security, how can American leaders keep it from happening?

Here, at least, Goldberg has performed a service. His article, read closely, suggests that even from Israel’s point of view, there’s no sound rationale for bombing Iran, especially when you consider the long-term downside: an attack would radically dim what prospects there are for lasting peace in the Middle East; Israel’s downward spiral — in which regional hostility toward it leads to conflicts that only deepen the hostility — would be sustained big time. If appealing to America’s interests isn’t enough to keep Israel from attacking Iran, maybe appealing to Israel’s interests will help.

Postscript: If you want to read a more ringing defense of Goldberg’s journalistic integrity than I am able to mount, here is The Atlantic’s James Fallows on the subject, and here is Time’s Joe Klein.

Attack Iran? Don’t even consider it

August 03, 2010 6:00 AM

THE POINT — An already overextended military and budget means we can’t afford another war.

U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, a conservative champion of free markets and limited government, explained in 2007 how our government’s foreign policy would inevitably get us into war with Iran. Paul, of course, opposes interventionist wars.
As a nation, we can hope the wise physician was wrong. More and more, he looks like a prophet.
Newspapers throughout the country recently carried an Associated Press story about an interview CNN conducted with Michael Hayden, former head of the CIA under president George W. Bush. Hayden said a U.S.-led attack on Iran was low priority during his tenure. Today, said the AP story, Hayden believes war with Iran is “inexorable.”
A spokesperson for Hayden later said the statement was misrepresented; Hayden meant Iran’s completion of a nuclear program, not war with Iran, seems inexorable. Either way, considering U.S. policy regarding the Middle East, an intervention in Iran seems likely. As Paul said in 2007: “I think if our policies don’t change it’s about as inevitable as you can expect because we’re unwilling to talk to them and every week we’re passing more sanctions and rules and intimidations and accusations and provocations…. The American people don’t know how we have been involved since 1953 in interfering with their government and it has hurt us.”
Hayden predicts Iran will build its nuclear program to the point where it’s just below having weapons. That would destabilize the region, he said. Considering the fact U.S. foreign policy is first and foremost obsessed with more stability in the Middle East, not less, it’s hard to imagine President Barack Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, the Department of Defense and our allies will resist the urge to use force. U.S. officials have said as much, assuring the world that military action remains on the table if sanctions continue failing to deter Iran — which they will.
So the writing is on the wall. Iran continues advancing a nuclear program the United States will not tolerate and our foreign policy has become no less interventionist under Obama and Clinton.
Let’s hope our nation’s leaders will let facts stand in their way. Here are the facts:

1. We cannot afford another war because we are far beyond broke, buried under debt;

2. Iran would be a more difficult foe than Afghanistan or Iraq;

3. The wars we’re fighting have crippled our economy and taken the lives of American men and women for little in return;

4. A nation cannot prosper while remaining in a perpetual state of war because death and destruction, while sometimes essential for a nation’s survival, do not produce wealth. The list could go on.
Iran will have nuclear capacity and we must accept that fact. Fortunately, the United States, Israel and other U.S. allies are capable of deterring aggression with threats of retaliation so forceful it’s unthinkable. We cannot afford to impose our agenda on every rogue nation that develops nuclear power. If we do, we will destroy ourselves Soviet style. We will fritter time, energy and wealth on interventionist adventures. Attack Iran preemptively? No way.

Subscribe
Notify of
guest
108 Comments
theo
theo
August 19, 2010 4:22 pm

Daniel—- all those assumptions are a house of cards—– an EMP goes off over the U.S.—-what kind of science fiction is that? If Iran gets the bomb you know what will happen—– NOTHING-ZERO. Again the NIE report of 2007 concluded that the nuclear weapons program was suspended in 2003. So even the possibility of Iran developing nukes is merely conjecture. The only thing that will happen if Iran gets nuclear weapons is that Israel and the U.S. will stop threatening to bomb and invade. I guess the neocons have raised the white flag anyway. Judith Miller at FOX News has called it off http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/19/judith-miller-iran-nuclear-reactor-bushehr-strike-middle-east-israel-america/ Their latest propaganda campaign has failed but these neocons are like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park—- they will bash themselves up against the fence looking for weaknesses. The neocons will stop at nothing until the war against Iran starts. Every time that they trot out some new campaign they get smacked down by Fareed Zakaria, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Stephen Walt, the NIE, Admiral Mullen and others BUT I am not sure that the Realists will always be able to hold back the neocon menace. I don’t even think that the neocons care about Israel because one of the biggest victims of an attack on Iran would be Israel itself.

The Miller article even killed the neocon meme that Israel would be stupid enough to act on their own. It says, Finally, putting aside the wisdom (or dangerous folly) of such a military strike, conservatives and liberals alike tend to agree, Israeli military action against Iran before Washington concludes that its sanctions policy is not working IS likely to poison already tense U.S.-Israel relations, which as John Bolton acknowledges, “are more strained now than at any time since the 1956.”

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 7:38 pm

For me, it all boils down to this:

Do you believe Iran will act rationally, or are they insane by our standards. I believe they are insane. Some of my basis for this belief has been stated above. Twenty five years ago, in the war against Iraq, they sent tens of thousands of unarmed children, teenagers, women, and old men to their deaths clearing minefields and machine gun fields of fire. These were the basij human waves. The Basij to this day run rampant in Iran. They sacrificed these people against a Muslim enemy.

The current leader of Iran was a basij trainer. They hate Israel far more than they did Iraq. i do not buy into the argument that they are trying to get nukes for defense. Israel is no threat to them, unless they feel threatened threatened themselves.

Iran supports the destruction of Israel. Given their preparedness to sacrifice tens of thousands against Iraq, I believe it is entirely possible that the Iranians would be prepared to risk the sacrifice of many more against a much more hated “enemy”.

If I were Israeli, I believe that I would see the development of nukes by Iran as an unacceptable risk to my country, and I believe that I would be an advocate of a preemptive action, given Iran’s history and its advocacy of the destruction of Israel..

I do not think Iran is an immediate threat to any other nation. I would not advocate a US strike on Iran. I think Jim is correct in thinking that the US will be blamed if there is Israeli action. This would lead to many difficulties.

I think anyone who believes that Iran can be trusted to act rationally needs to take a closer look at their recent history, especially their preparedness to sacrifice and persecute their own people.

I do not think Iran is an immediate threat to the US. However, I do not see how anyone can trust Iran to be rational in its actions. I wonder how we would feel if Iran shared a border with the US.

SSS
SSS
August 19, 2010 7:42 pm

Cynical30

You may have noticed that whenever I start to irritate JQ, he starts to call me “old man.” My combat experience is in Vietnam (1968-69 and 1972) and El Salvador (1982-83). No contact with the 2nd Rangers, but plenty of contact with the 5th and 7th Special Forces Groups. I was a pilot and in Air Force special operations for most of my career.

theo

You said, “The other neocon meme is that Israel will act unilaterally and without the consent of the United States. Oh there is nothing that we can do—- those crazy Israelis.” You must be kidding, theo. Have you forgotten about the Israeli commando raid at Entebbe Airport in Uganda, the Israeli air attacks against PLO camps in Tunisia, and the Israeli bombing of the Osirak nuclear power plant in Iraq?

This isn’t a neocon meme. It’s a fucking fact that the Israelis will ACT, and have acted, when they believe it is their nation’s best interest to do so. And it doesn’t make me a neocon when I point out plain, simple facts.

I recently posted the FACT that the Israeli Air Force has a fleet of 7 aerial tankers that can get Israeli fighters to almost any target in Iran and home safely (Tunisia is farther away that Iran). I can guarantee you that the Israeli fighters who will provide air cover for the Israeli fighter bombers sent to strike Iranian targets will totally chew up and spit out any Iranian fighter launched against the strike force. Israeli fighter pilots are among the best and most highly trained in the world. That’s a FACT, and they’ve proved it over and over in both hot wars and whenever they participate in multi-national mock air warfare exercises. And it is a FACT that Israel has developed an excellent “bunker buster” bomb which will be used to penetrate and destroy the buried nuclear research sites the Iranians have built.

No neocon bullshit, theo. Just the facts.

Administrator
Administrator
August 19, 2010 8:02 pm

LLPOH

Iran does not border Israel. They are 1,100 miles away from Israel. That is the disatnce between Pennsylvania and Nebraska. If those fucking Nebraskans even think about invading PA, we’ll launch our nukes.

[imgcomment image[/img]

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 8:04 pm

Theo – Best I can tell, Daniel and I are convinced that Iran cannot be trusted to act rationally, and has shown it is willing to sacrifice their own people, by the tens and hundreds of thousands. Your response is that it was only village children, etc., but the leaders wouldn’t put their own asses on the line. Reminds me of Chamberlain – “peace in our time”. If they will kill their own, they will kill anyone. You really are naive.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a shill or is un – or – undereducated, and bases their opinion on too little or wrong information? Great stuff that. Just shows what a douchebag you are. You do not know me, and I assure you I am not that shallow.

I have said all along that the US should stay the hell out of it (ditto Afganistan and Iraq). If I were Israeli, given the Israeli psyche and the millenniums of persecution, and Iran’s history and position toward Israel, I think I would not take the chance of Iran going rogue.

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 8:12 pm

Admin – you think perhaps I didn’t know that? A little literary license, please! I thought of saying something like El Salvador, or lower Mexico. Iran can easily hit Israel with warplanes, etc. You can also spit across Israel. Eleven hundred miles from Mexico puts you, what, in Arkansas.

Pretty funny tho. I shoulda known I would cop it.

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 8:26 pm

SSS – Theo gives me the shits. He resorts to “if you don’t agree with me you must be stupid/ignorant/brainwashed, and has nothing to defend his own position other than blind hope, all evidence to the contrary.

Yes Israel wants to keep the US on side. But they absolutely will do whatever they think they need to do to protect themselves, and the rest of the can get fucked. Which is why we both have said it matters not one whit what we think – Israel will determine the outcome.

Administrator
Administrator
  LLPOH
August 19, 2010 8:47 pm

Israel may decide to do what they think is best for Israel. The result could be a worldwide conflagaration that makes WWII look like a party. I wonder what $10 a gallon gasoline will do to the American way of life?

SSS
SSS
August 19, 2010 8:56 pm

LLPOH

As examples of Israel’s unilateral surprises, I forgot to mention Israel’s attack on the Syrian nuclear facility (when did that happen? last weekend?) and the 6-Day War. I hate Alzheimer’s.

Theo gives you the shits? Well, this whole post gives me the trots. I agree it’s a game-changing topic, but Quinn’s a master at stirring up a shitstorm. Mission accomplished.

Administrator
Administrator
  SSS
August 19, 2010 9:09 pm

SSS

The best posts are the ones where no one gets out alive. You have to admit that we have gotten every point of view on this issue. I’d like Zara to chime in.

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 9:04 pm

$10 a gallon would be an eye opening experience. The flow-through effect would be unbelievable. Double dip recession would be looked back on as the good old days.

I hope this shit doesn’t happen. I really do. If history has taught us anything, it is that nations do not act rationally.

LLPOH
LLPOH
August 19, 2010 9:18 pm

SSS – what also annoys me are the thumbs down I get for perfectly well-reasoned and documented comments I post. Don’t they know I am a very sensitive and gentle human being, and thumbs downs can scar me for life?

Although I am not so ancient as you (how do you see the keyboard at your age?), I think that positions mature over time. As I have matured, my opinions have altered to be based not only on what and how I would like things to be, but also begin more and more to include allowances for realities that exist.

I would love to believe that all will be right with the world. Unfortunately, there are always bastards out there that see the extension of goodwill as weakness, and to grant universal or unilateral trust is a recipe for disaster.

Gotta admire Jim’s skill in generating these slugfests.

SSS
SSS
August 19, 2010 9:21 pm

Admin

The shitstorm comment I made was a compliment, as you know. Zara, where are you?

Administrator
Administrator
  SSS
August 19, 2010 9:55 pm

SSS

I take every comment as a compliment. This was a well fought, sometimes dirty(mostly me) battle of ideas and opinions. I can’t believe I didn’t post 15 pictures of dead Muslim children. If Stuck had been involved, I would have resorted to that tactic. It always gets him.

SSS
SSS
August 19, 2010 11:07 pm

LLOPH

You said, “SSS….. Although I am not so ancient as you (how do you see the keyboard at your age?).” I’ve got an appointment with a head shrink tomorrow. Severe mental scar problem.

Admin

You said, “Israel may decide to do what they think is best for Israel. The result could be a worldwide conflagaration that makes WWII look like a party. I wonder what $10 a gallon gasoline will do to the American way of life?”

You know something, $10 a gallon gasoline may be just the wakeup call this country needs. It would be extrordinarily painful for the vast majority of Americans. But only for a few years. Maybe a 2X4 upside the head is exactly what we need and deserve. We HAVE the resources to get the fucking oil we need right here at home. Yeah, oil shale exploration and exploitation is expensive in today’s market and the Williston Oil Basin is shut down by environmental activists. So what. Watch that shit disappear when gas hits 10 bucks!!! And watch nuclear energy take off like a Saturn rocket. Win. Win.

Thanks to you, I have now just changed my mind. Fuck Israel and what they may or may not do. Bomb the Iranian motherfuckers.

llpoh
llpoh
August 20, 2010 3:03 am

SSS – I like your style. Had thought the same thing – ten dollar gas would wake up a few folks.

Daniel
Daniel
August 20, 2010 9:40 am

For those that think an Iranian EMP is “James Bond” or science fiction or something that we shouldn’t be worried about in the least – the Iranians have already tested it:

“The radical Shiite regime has conducted successful tests to determine if its Shahab-3 ballistic missiles, capable of carrying a nuclear warhead, can be detonated by a remote-control device while still in high-altitude flight, Graham said in his report. Graham said then there was no other plausible explanation for such tests than preparation for the deployment of electromagnetic pulse weapons – even one of which could knock out America’s critical electrical and technological infrastructure, effectively sending the continental U.S. back to the 19th century with a recovery time of months or years. Iran would have that capability – at least theoretically – as soon as it has one nuclear bomb ready to arm such a missile.”

http://radarsite.blogspot.com/2008/07/irans-emp-attack-americas-achilles-heel.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB122748923919852015.html
http://www.spacetoday.org/Satellites/Iran/IranianSat.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6116GO20100203

Jim – it is interesting that you brought up Ahmadinejad’s pal Hugo. With Syria, North Korea, and Iran pooling technical know-how, the skies the limit! Well, I’m not saying they will win any nobel prizes, but with Venezuela’s help and uranium deposits they have a lock, North Korea is the nation that was giving Syria nuke technology just before Israel turned the plutonium plant into a grease spot. Don’t think they are not looking to keep that going.

If Freesmith were here he might have some advise for this group – that we should move past the boogie-words. Those who do not believe in the threat of Iranian nukes lack a world historical imagination and think in simplistic categories, categories like “neocon,” “empire” and “military-industrial complex.” Those are their boogie-words, just like “bourgeois,” “right-wing deviationist” and “kulak” were the boogie-words for others in the past. These boogie-words have special powers to those who wield them; once wielded the debate is supposed to be over. They don’t want to believe the bad news that such a future portends, so they simply refuse to accept it as reality and conjure up reasons why it can’t be so.

And what is “it?” The fantasy ideology behind 9/11 plus a nuke equals the end of the current world order. Quite a prospect, eh?

Administrator
Administrator
  Daniel
August 20, 2010 9:59 am

Again Daniel you are wrong. The Shahab-3 ballistic missile has a MAXIMUM range of 1,200 miles. How the fuck can it do damage to the US that is 7,500 miles away? More fear mongering bullshit.

I sure am glad you don’t use simplistic terms like Islamofascist. The neo-cons are the ones with the bogeyman behind every bush. They used it to ram through the USA Patriot Act, which I’m sure you are a big fan of.

Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001

Has there ever been a more Orwellian term?

“World order.” Has there ever been world order Daniel? Do you ever listen to the words coming out of your mouth?

Daniel
Daniel
August 20, 2010 11:04 am

Jim, I like it much better when we play nice and I liked your missive that you see every comment as a compliment. I feel the love. I know you think I’m a “neo-con” but in the end we are only a few degrees off (although I happen to love simple Americans and strip malls and Walmarts).

So you are saying they are only a threat once they get ICBMs? That is some bizarre logic. Once they can put satellites into orbit, the ICBM just is not that far off. N Korea and Iran will get there soon enough. If we have distilled the argument down to tactical ability, I think we’ve missed the point. It’s the same illogic that allows us to underestimate box cutters, or shoe bombers, or the destruction Saudi madrases bring to the world. They are at war with us and our way of life, we just can’t bring ourselves to admit it.

“World order” – perhaps a Freudian slip up because secretly I want to rule the world, but I can’t even get my kids to bed by 8 or to eat their greens. I meant perhaps the USA and the West’s leadership role in the world community in terms of wealth, influence, and freedom. We could look at our enemies as an example of the flip side of that coin.

Theo, sorry, I don’t hold the opinions of Fareed Zakaria or Zbigniew Brzezinski, not to mention the politically twisted and misused NIE with much weight.

Administrator
Administrator
  Daniel
August 20, 2010 11:32 am

Daniel

We’ve found common ground. I shop at Wal-Mart every Saturday morning at 7:00 am so I don’t have to interact with the ignorant masses later in the day. The ignorant masses like to sleep in on Saturdays.

I think we will continue to disagree as you believe that Muslims are at war with us. I don’t believe it so.

I agree with Chalmers Johnson’s view that if we withdrew from our hundreds of military bases and reined in our empire, the tensions in the world would decrease. You will argue that the terrorists will see this as weakness and take advantage. Since we will never follow Johnson’s advice, we are destined for war, blooshed and unintended consequences. God help us.

Cynical30
Cynical30
August 20, 2010 11:43 am

Aw man, I almost let Smokey sneak one by me.

I’m surprised at you Smokes. For someone who appreciates such nuance in public debate, I am truly taken aback by your response. Surely someone as esteemed as you can recognize the subtle technique of “killing two jerkoffs with one bitchslap”. Alas, apparently you don’t. Shameful. I turly expect more out of you.

Either way, you should give your mom a call when you get a chance. I crawled through her window last night & finally gave you the little brother you always wanted. Just so you know, given the her age and morbid obesity, there’s a good chance he may come out looking like an Asian penguin. I’ll be sure to UPS you a bike helmet & arm floaties if that’s the case.

Administrator
Administrator
  Cynical30
August 20, 2010 11:50 am

Cynical30

You can’t make me laugh that hard while I’m at work.

Smokey has been served.

theo
theo
August 20, 2010 2:02 pm

SSS————

You are right that Israel does act within their interests without the approval of the U.S. BUT in this case Israel most likely will not act(nothing is 100 percent certain in this world) because it would jeopardize their relationship with the United States. That is why the Israeli Likud Party has been attempting to spread the neocon meme that they will strike first. The Likud party used their asset in the United States, Jeffrey Goldberg, to spread the meme that Israel will act alone. This was done in order to make it appear that war is inevitable. The inevitability of war often leads to war. If war is inevitable then windows of opportunity arise—- we should strike now while we have an advantage—— in this case we must strike now before Iran gets the bomb. This perception of windows of opportunity is a standard tactic used by people that want to start a war. Thus it is no mistake that Goldberg’s article would come out and then John Bolton would present the American public with a window of opportunity— we must strike now within the next few days or the fuel rod will be installed at the Busher Plant.

What people don’t realize is that there is a COMMITTEE TO START A REGIONAL WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST—- this committee is largely run out of the American Enterprise Institute but it also includes PNAC, The Hudson Institute, Jeffrey Goldberg, Michael Gordon from the NYT etc. Some of the strongest and staunchest advocates for this plan for World War IV(World War III was the Cold War) are James Woolsey, Michael Ledeen, Richard Perle, Norman Podhoretz, Victor David Hanson, Robert Kagan, and Dick Cheney———— they all work together to form these media blitzes. They are propaganda war pushes. This Israel will attack soon push is part of a series of campaigns by these people. DO THE RESEARCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Google PNAC, World War IV, or even Michael Ledeen—————- this is a conspiracy in plain sight——–they are very open about their aims—– they want to topple the House of Saud, bomb Syria, Iran and Lebanon—– ethnically cleanse the Palestinian—— this is their stated agenda—– they don’t hide this from anyone. There really is a neocon agenda. Their plan is start a regional war in the Middle East and they will not stop until it happens.

One of the main parts of this neocon agenda is the Clash of Civilizations meme. This is being spread by Bernard Lewis, David Horowitz and others. It’s the idea that somehow Middle Easterners are a different, exotic, inscrutable breed of human beings. They are insane and impossible to understand———– Daniel has swallowed this hook either because he believes or he cynically wants to manipulate people into believing it.

Here is the Agenda

See http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm
And http://old.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen080602a.asp
And http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3249.htm
And

And

I could go on all day literally cutting and pasting their agenda in their own words. Anyone who writes about U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East without knowing the agenda is completely ignorant. Daniel, SSS, and the rest of these people who mouth out talking points being generated by neoconservative sources are either hopelessly ignorant or they know the agenda and are working to bring it about.

Administrator
Administrator
  theo
August 20, 2010 3:00 pm

Theo

I’m glad you have arrived on the site. Don’t go away. Your insights are extremely valuable.

theo
theo
August 20, 2010 2:06 pm

SSS————

You are right that Israel does act within their interests without the approval of the U.S. BUT in this case Israel most likely will not act(nothing is 100 percent certain in this world) because it would jeopardize their relationship with the United States. That is why the Israeli Likud Party has been attempting to spread the neocon meme that they will strike first. The Likud party used their asset in the United States, Jeffrey Goldberg, to spread the meme that Israel will act alone. This was done in order to make it appear that war is inevitable. The inevitability of war often leads to war. If war is inevitable then windows of opportunity arise—- we should strike now while we have an advantage—— in this case we must strike now before Iran gets the bomb. This perception of windows of opportunity is a standard tactic used by people that want to start a war. Thus it is no mistake that Goldberg’s article would come out and then John Bolton would present the American public with a window of opportunity— we must strike now within the next few days or the fuel rod will be installed at the Busher Plant.

theo
theo
August 20, 2010 2:50 pm

GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The most recent Neocon push for World War IV has failed. Obama has called it off as this New York Times story shows: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/world/middleeast/20policy.html?_r=1

Even the war mongers at Fox News have given up: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/19/worst-case-scenarios-possible-strike-plans-iran-involve-risky-options/

And http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/08/19/judith-miller-iran-nuclear-reactor-bushehr-strike-middle-east-israel-america/

The neocons can crawl back into their holes at the Weekly Standard and AEI and come up with their next push for war.

Administrator
Administrator
  theo
August 20, 2010 3:17 pm

theo

Don’t worry. They’ll crawl back out to get Newt Gingrich elected. He is their new savior.

SSS
SSS
August 20, 2010 4:16 pm

theo

You ignorant slut. What fucking neocon talking points did I mouth out? I “mouthed out” actual historical facts about Israel and the Israeli Defense Forces, dickweed. You, on the other hand, prefer to simply mouth off.

YOU go visit sites related to AEI, John Bolton, Dick Cheney, and the rest of that shit-for-brains neocon crowd. I could care less what they think or what they’re saying. I prefer to study history, research what the facts are, watch what is currently happening, and come to my own conclusions. I’m nobody’s lapdog, shitstick.

Why don’t you go give Admin a blowjob. It’ll keep you from saying something stupid for awhile.

Administrator
Administrator
  SSS
August 20, 2010 5:09 pm

Theo

SSS must not of had his nap today. Old men are cranky when they don’t take their naps.

theo
theo
August 20, 2010 6:04 pm

I love when people lose their cool—it can mean only one thing—— they got their feelings hurt and they have nothing to say.

Administrator—- the neocon picks for politicians have been an abject failure—a dress wearing divorcee, a white trash prom queen from Alaska, and now fat boy retread who divorced his wife on her death bed—-none of this crowd is electable. They thought they were pulling Bush’s strings but he told them to stuff it when they said bomb Syria and Iran. Turns out Bush was closer to his old man than wolfowitz and Cheney. But these people scare the shit out of me—- they are like the Terminator and they will not stop. Privatization of the military has increased their lobby and they practically own the Republican party. The paleoconservatives and the Ron Paul crowd have been marginalized. I think that we should be more afraid of Patreus than Newt but any Republican would be more likely to bomb Iran than most Democrats. The War Lobby on a long enough timeline will most likely get their apocalypse. There is a critical mass of stupid people in the American public and it is expanding along with a crowd of warmongers who constantly come up with new campaigns—–this whole Israel preemptive strike red herring was just one of many including British sailor hostages, IED’s in Iraq from Iran, the Lebanon War orchestrated by Iran,—– there is always some pretext that idiots will swallow every time.

Smokey
Smokey
August 20, 2010 6:59 pm

Cynical 30—I hope you enjoyed your fling with my mom last night. By the way, she’s 81 and has AIDS.

Administrator
Administrator
  Smokey
August 20, 2010 8:16 pm

Nice comeback Smokey. Very creative.

Administrator
Administrator
  Smokey
August 20, 2010 8:17 pm

Smokey

I’ve been sitting on my patio drinking a glass of wine while tryig to finish Mobs, Messiahs, & Markets. I’ll post the funnies ASAP.

Smokey
Smokey
August 20, 2010 7:03 pm

Administrator—-Where’s the Friday failures and Friday funnies? I need my fix.

llpoh
llpoh
August 20, 2010 8:42 pm

SSS – can’t believe Theo thinks he has you flustered and thinks he has scored on you. One of the funniest things I have read. Wish he would give up on the ” if you don’t agree with me you must be a shill or an ignoramus” mantra, tho. Happy to read his comments otherwise but that is just kindergarden bullshit and evidence of a weak argument.

llpoh
llpoh
August 20, 2010 8:56 pm

Theo – I believe Israel would love nothing better than peace. To draw any correlation between peace talks with the Palestinians and the situation re Iran pursuing nukes is not realistic. Also, Israeli peace with the Palestinians does not serve the interests of many Arab nations so I don’t hold much hope for success. It would be great if it happened tho.

SSS
SSS
August 20, 2010 9:05 pm

LLPOH, theo, Smokey, and Admin

I’m in the final stages of taking Smokey’s Composition 101 course. He told me that if I could get Admin to call me “old man” just once, it would be an automatic pass. Since that has happened twice during the course, I will graduate with honors, maybe summa cum laude.

Admin

That was a very mean comment about naps. You are a cruel, unfeeling human being. I’ll bet you drown your cats when they get sick.

Administrator
Administrator
  SSS
August 20, 2010 9:10 pm

SSS

My kitten Smokey is curled up in a ball next to me as I type this.

theo
theo
August 21, 2010 1:51 pm

Daniel—-

Sorry but sources matter. We can’t ignore that Jeffrey Goldberg was pushing the Al Queda/Saddam connection before the Iraq invasion and now he is pushing the “We can’t stop those crazy Israelis from bombing message.” Just like I can’t ignore that Goldberg was a prison guard in the Israeli Defense Force.

I also will not ignore that Bernard Lewis, Victor David Hanson and David Horowitz are the main propagators of the message that “Those suicidal Iranians are going to drop the bomb on Israel as soon as they get it.”

These ideas have a prima facie plausibility to them but behind them are are think tanks and journals like AEI, the Hudson Institute and the Weekly Standard. The noeconservatives pump out a message that has many different sides but one basic message. There are the flat out liars like James Woolsey who says, “Iran is working with Al Queda.” and then there are the reasonable, scholarly neoconservatives like Goldberg who mix fact, argument, history and a slew of assumptions together. BUT the message is always the same: We must take military action against the enemies of Israel now! When we treat every campaign for war as legitimate we ignore the fact that the current push for war is part of a long string of campaigns for war.

Ever since Richard Perle and David Wurmser came up with A Clean Break they have stopped at nothing to sell their plan for a regional war in the Middle East. They formed an alliance with Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld who also wanted war for their own reasons and out of this alliance came PNAC in 1997. In 1998 they published Tyrannies Allie which further elaborates on the plan. In 2000 they published Rebuilding America’s Defenses which was merely a reworking of the Defense Policy Guidance Plan of 1992. In the W. Bush transition period Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld appointed most of the PNAC members to the new administration. When 9/11 happened this group sprung into action. Now these same people want to bomb Iran and they are working through the same think tanks, publishing houses and media sources to do it. SSS says so eloquently, “I am not going to read this shit dickweed”. But I am sure that he is frequently exposed to their ideas almost everyday in the pages of the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, in history written by the students of neoconservative academics, neocons writings in magazines, they are commentators on cable news shows. They are not always as explicit as they were in 1996 when they wrote Clean Break but there is always a subtext to their work———– we must bomb these scary Muslim nations. The rational changes—-British sailor hostages, Anthrax attack, 9/11, nuclear program, suicidal nation but the message is always the same—- bomb Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran and whoever else messes with Israel.

Of course, Israel wants peace. I am not sure the neoconservatives even care about Israel. Total war in the Middle East is completely against Israeli interests. When Israel acts in their own interests instead of in the interests of war the neoconservatives line up to criticize Israel. When Sharon pulled out of Gaza Krauthammer and Woolsey attacked him. When Olmert pulled out of Lebanon the neoconservatives attacked Israel again. Maybe one day a new Rabin will rise up in Israel and break the deadly connection that Israel has with these sociopath neoconservatives—-if they don’t then many of their citizens will be killed in the neoconservative crusade.