I understand people can be offended by these things. But to turn to violence is the act of undeveloped intellect and shows a lack of humanity.
The Muslims need to advance beyond the dark ages. We no longer burn witches.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 4:55 pm
Je ne suis pas Charlie. This whole event is not an argument of the limits of freedom of speech nor those hindering it, this debate is about the freedom to insult or the freedom to agitate. Why did Charlie Hebdo ever think insulting an entire religion by depicting Muhammad was a good idea? Why did Sony and the State Department think it was a good idea to produce a movie mocking a current Head of State and depicting an assassination of Kim Jong Un? Why did that crazy pastor in Florida think it was a good idea to make a movie entitled “Innocence of Muslims” and burn the Quran for fun?
Why does anybody think these were good ideas? Insulting Muhammad in the eyes of Muslims is like saying Hilter was doing God’s will by killing Jews or calling President Obama a nigger. While there are people who agree with all of these forms of freedom of speech (or opinions) one has to wonder what is the value of them? What was the value of Charlie Hebdo insulting Islam in such a blatantly moronic way? In one issue of Charlie Hebdo, which by the way only has a subscriber based of 45,000 people for its weekly publication, they put Muhammad on the cover saying “100 lashes to anyone who does not die laughing”. Of all the people shouting and uniting for freedom of speech I have not heard one argument over the value of the actual content. Most were gleeful at Bradley Manning going to jail, calling Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States, or Aaron Schwartz being criminally prosecuted for stealing and publishing academic journals. The information they were releasing had value to the public. What has been making the news as freedom of speech has really been tacky content.
Llpoh
January 12, 2015 5:16 pm
Steph – you are missing the point, with all due respect.
You are applying your views. You are so entitled.
But we must not regulate speech or expression. Because if we go down that path, there is no end to it. And in the end, who do you think will decide what is appropriate and what is not? It most certainly will not be you nor I.
If folks find something distasteful, they can choose not to read it. In the case of Hedbo, seems like 45,000 find it worthwhile. Even 1 is enough.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 5:28 pm
“You are applying your views.”
Which is the exact point of commentary and opinion. My opinion is just because there are laws and institutions protecting freedom of speech many people in history have died while exercising their right to freedom of speech. But, this does make for a good news story and we will be seeing 1 million different narratives and opinion pieces in the weeks to come arguing freedom of speech and condemning violent Islam. The news and media will love all the ‘likes’ and ‘shares’ over the debates that really don’t need to get debated. Yes, freedom of speech is important and mentally ill people killing others over their perverse understandings of religion. I am here saying depicting Muhammad is tacky. Making a movie about the assassination of Kim Jong Un is tacky. Organizing Quran burnings and making a movie insulting Islam is tacky.
llpoh
January 12, 2015 5:34 pm
Lots of things are tacky. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Burning the Koran and making fun of Islam – to me that seems to be de rigueur. Those fuckwits deserve it and then some.
Then you sir are tacky too. I happen to like Islam and United States itself should have a debt of gratitude to Muhammad considering he was the first statesman to draft a constitution, to all freedom of speech and a freedom of religion. The current media bias against Islam is completely detached from the actually history of Muhammad’s works or the religion itself.
llpoh
January 12, 2015 5:51 pm
Steph – no offense, but I have forgotten more about Islam than you know.
Muhammad was a murdering rapist war-mongering slaver pedophile. His followers find ample lessons and examples for the atrocities they commit – from beheadings to rape etc. in his actions.
I challenge anyone to point out similar in the actions of Christ.
Islam is not a religion of peace. Quite the contrary. It was founded by a brutal war-lord. And its foundations are unchanged to this day.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 6:01 pm
Llpoh- If that is your understanding of Islam and Muhammad you need to read more books written by actual theologists and stop listening to Rush Limbaugh (who is also tacky).
llpoh
January 12, 2015 6:13 pm
Steph – I have a degree in this shit. I have read thousands of pages on this subject.
Everything I said re Muhammad is factual, and can be 100% corroborated. Some folks defend his actions based on “well, it was acceptable at the time”. Horseshit is what I say to that.
His murdering was legion. He beheaded 900 Jews who surrendered to him unconditionally.
He tortured his captives.
He gave his “followers” permission to rape slaves and captives: “he made it lawful for male masters to have sexual relations with female captives and slaves”
He married a nine year old.
He took his adopted son’s wife from him.
He took untold numbers of slaves during his wars.
Seriously, Steph, get a fucking clue. Read a few thousand pages on this religion, and augment it with tens of thousands of pages on the other major religions -Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, etc., so you can get a proper overall perspective, then come back and we will have an educated discussion.
You are ignorant on this subject and do not know it. I may be wrong on my conclusions, which is what debate is for, but the stuff above is FACT and there is simply no denying it.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 6:16 pm
What are your sources? Can you currently do a google search and give me links? Because I am basing my statements on the actual “Constitution of Medina” written by Muhammad himself.
Stucky
January 12, 2015 6:17 pm
” I happen to like Islam ……..” ————– Clams
Why? Because you wear a burka? Because you know your place as a woman? Because you are so good at tolerating other opinions? Because you thought Peter O’Toole was sexy in Lawrence Of Arabia? Because you read some comic book story that Moohummid tolerated infidels??? BWAAHAHAHAHA!!
Wow. Just when I thought you were getting smarter ….. you fooled me but good.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 6:24 pm
” Why?”
Because of Islamic banking and its forbidden usury.
“Because you read some comic book story that Moohummid tolerated infidels?”
” The Jews of the Banu ‘Awf are one community with the believers. To the Jews their religion and to the Muslims their religion. [This applies] to their clients and to themselves with the exception of anyone who has done wrong or committed treachery, for he harms only himself and his family.”
Freedom of religion according to the Constitution of Medina written by Muhammad.
llpoh
January 12, 2015 6:27 pm
Steph – Muhammad was an ACTUAL historic figure. There is tons of stuff out there. Some of it is in the Koran. Or the Hadith. But there are myriad historical records. A lot of oral tradition exists as well. Do a search – it will come pouring out.
I have no interest in doing the research for you. I have already done it in spades for myself. I try to avoid religious debate as it wearies me, but I do make an exception re pointing out that Islam is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of conquest, it has as its main tenet submission to Allah and wants Islamic world domination, it has its roots in war, and its founder was a war-lord.
There is no other religion like it. It is going to be the cause of major conflict, and it has cost the lives of many millions of people already – Hope says 250 million, and I will not quibble with her over the number.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 6:34 pm
I have no interest in doing the research for you.
No, you have no interest in me attacking your sources or discrediting them. You are not up for the challenge, I get it, it would be hard to support your bias against somebody looking closely at your sources. I have already pointed to my first source, I can also dig up many sources on current and past Islam banking, which fundamentals concerning finance are brilliant economic principles. I could also point you towards the religion forbidding usury, as oppose to Judaism or Christianity’s loophole of using court Jews to allow usury. I could also point you toward information of how Christian nobility through the ages used Jews to finance their war and empires and the persecuted Jews when they held too much of the nobility’s debt. I could even point you towards the mathematical and technological advances that came into existence because of Islam, the most important being algebra (Al-Gebra, get it?)
SSS
January 12, 2015 7:33 pm
Stephanie says she likes Islam because of its condemnation of usury and the Constitution of Medina, a document which cannot be authenticated. That’s it?
Do you like honor killings (available for your viewing pleasure on YouTube)? How about stoning to death adulteresses (available for your viewing pleasure on YouTube)?
How about we take up a collection for a SOLO round trip ticket to Saudi Arabia with the proviso that YOU MUST TAKE YOUR WESTERN VALUES WITH YOU AND ACT AND DRESS ACCORDINGLY? Just one other rule: no companions at any time. None. Totally solo.
Remember, act and dress accordingly. Deal?
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 7:39 pm
SSS- Please, tell me what is the perfect religion?
Golden Oxen
January 12, 2015 8:45 pm
No expert on Religions here, but it is hard to consider a religion that condones suicide bombings, that preaches death to all who don’t believe, not understanding; seems to me to be something other than a Religion.
dduck
January 12, 2015 9:02 pm
Stephanie, are you the same woman who plans on marrying Charles Manson? Just curious, because there is a resemblance somewhere.
Stucky
January 12, 2015 9:10 pm
“Freedom of religion according to the Constitution of Medina written by Muhammad.” —-Clams
Well, well, well. Well!!
Your little comment above tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about your supposed knowledge of Islam, and that is to say …….virtually NOTHING. You didn’t just make a slight error, or a typo, or an inadvertent oversight. You made a HUGE error of even the most BASIC aspect about Mohammid. It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your so-called knowledge of Islam is nothing more than what you googled in the past day, or so.
For you see ……… old Mo COULD NEITHER READ OR WRITE. I’ll even do the research for you … here, from a mooslim website;
“All historians are unanimous that the Prophet was an unlettered man who had never known books or teachers and never learned how to write. The Qur’an itself addressed him as follows: ———– “Before this, you did not read any book, nor did you write anything with your hands”. (29:48).
The Constitution of Medina is oft considered to have been naught but a political exercise by Muhammad to buy time to build strength. You see, a bit later, after he had built strength, Muhammad expelled the Jews that he had promised equality to in the “Constitution”. Funny that. Muhammad was very wily indeed.
Stuck – it is generally accepted that Muhammad was indeed the architect of the Constitution of Medina. What is disputed is the integrity thereof – that it was a ploy (much as the treaties signed with the American Indians to buy peace) to buy enough time to allow Muhammad to marshal his strength and then evict the Jews, which is indeed what happened.
Muhammad was a wily, vicious warlord.
Stucky
January 12, 2015 9:49 pm
Mooslims lie as easily as breathing when dealing with infidels (anyone not like them). In fact, Allah wants them to lie. They even have a word for this doctrine …. Taqiyya … doctrine explained here;
That’s why any peace treaty with a mooslim is worth less than the paper it’s writtin on … literally.
Not only was Moohammid a goat fucker, he was a lying goat fucker.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 10:13 pm
Its Muslims, stating it as “Mooslims” makes me not take you seriously.
Btw, Did you know Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and here is the foundation’s criticisms:
“In its 2011 report, “Fear Incorporated: the Roots of the Islamophobia Network in the United States” the Center for American Progress cited Horowitz as a prominent figure instrumental in demonizing Islam and spreading fear about an Islamic takeover of Western society. Horowitz’s response was that the Center had “joined the Muslim Brotherhood.”
“The Anti-Defamation League writes that Horowitz sponsors a college campus project that promotes anti-Muslim views and arranges events with anti-Muslim activists”
Yeah, no bias from Raymond Ibrahim or his affiliation with David Horowitz…
llpoh
January 12, 2015 10:22 pm
Steph is getting perhaps the worst thumb beat-down in TBP history. I should know – I think I may have the # 2-10 spots myself.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 10:26 pm
“worst thumb beat-down in TBP history.”
You must have amnesia, the worst thumb down loss in TBP history was your own vigilant arguments against servers not claiming all their tips and paying their full amount of taxes. Stucky can even vouch for me considering he is the one who counted the votes and proclaimed your defeat.
Say what you want against Islam but I take the same stance when anybody is critical of an entire religion based on prejudice and bigotry. I would also defend Christianity against the atheists arguments and Judaism against Islamist arguments. I have a problem with people trying to shame an entire religion of millions of people.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 10:56 pm
Further criticisms of David Horowitz:
Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz’s Center for the Study of Popular Culture (formerly called the freedom foundation) as one of 17 “right-wing foundations and think tanks supporting efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable.”
“In 2008, while speaking at UCSB, Horowitz stated that the keffiyah, the traditional Arab head covering made famous by PLO leader Yasser Arafat, is a symbol of terrorism. In response, UCSB professor Walid Afifi accused Horowitz of “preaching hate” and smearing Arab culture”
In 2011, he was listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of 10 people in the United States’ “Anti-Muslim Inner Circle.”
And a link from Southern Poverty Law Center Website about David Horowitz
Steph – you are full of shit. I am critical of Islam because of what the fuck it says. It says it is ok to kill non-believers, to rape those that are captured, to charge fees of non-believers who live in areas they control. Islam – the Hadiths – give as punishment death to those that leave Islam. Look around – adherents of Islam freely admit this stuff. It is all there, all you have to do is look. “Moderates” try to deny it is there, but make no mistake, there it is. And let us not talk about Sharia.
Islam is an evil religion as far as I am concerned- get it? My position is based on what the fuck the religion says it is about. All this stuff is right there in black and white – in the Koran, or in the Hadiths.
How are you too dense to understand that? You claim I am bigoted, but I can point to facts that absolutely support my position. If you want to believe it is a nice, do-good religion – go for it. But convert, travel to Yemen and propose that you are leaving the religion and see what happens. They will quite possibly cut your head off, enlightened souls that they are. The Hadiths support that punishment, you see. The penalty for apostasy is death.
Fact is, you are still a mental midget. I am through with you. I thought you had matured, but no. You wish to cover your ignorance and stupidity by calling facts prejudice and bigotry.
GilbertS
January 12, 2015 11:46 pm
Going from Stephanie’s first comment-
Stephanie-SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Do you know why I, and the rest of the human race not stupid enough to believe the ignorant backwards-ass rantings and ravings of a moon-worshipping child-molesting highway robber, get to mock or criticize or insult or otherwise show less than 100% obedience to Islam? Because I’ve got eyes in my head to see, the brains to consider, and the God-given Constitution-enumerated right to say whatever the fuck I want.
People shouldn’t have to fear ignorant weirdbeards coming to kill them just for not believing in their stupid religion. Somehow the rest of the planet figured out a long time ago that we could worship our own gods without torturing and killing others. Comments like yours only absolve them of their culpability. You should be holding them responsible, not defining deviance down by saying, “Well, they got what they deserved for pissing off people who are obviously violent.”
If you think Islam is some panacea, you’re a sucker of the first order. Go over there and learn about it first-hand. I was over there and fuck Islam and its stupid believers. It’s the world’s most fucked up institution.
Oh, and the more pious they appear, the more full of shit they are. Each one of those holy warriors and babbling weirdbeards is watching the nastiest porn, engaging in homosexual sex, raping women and/or animals, visiting prostitutes, drinking alcohol, and worse. The further south you go on the peninsula, the more FOS they are.
Islamophobia? What a retarded term and a lame attempt to beat people over the head into accommodating something that is trying to kill them. In this day and age, being an “Islamophobe” isn’t hatred; it’s a survival mechanism. In case you hadn’t noticed, they have a peculiar tendency to suffer SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome) and lash out at random people, blow things up, cut people’s heads off, and otherwise act like barbarians. I forget which imam stated Muslims in the West should consider themselves soldiers trapped behind enemy lines.
It’s a religious war; we need to accept it and start fighting it.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 11:47 pm
” If you want to believe it is a nice, do-good religion”
I will continue to believe just that as I do with other religions. It helps that I have met many nice Muslims in real life. Every Muslim I have met have been nice and passive people. So got ahead and dissent every bad thing you can regarding Islam as a religion, it will always fall short on me.
Stephanie Shepard
January 12, 2015 11:49 pm
“It’s a religious war; we need to accept it and start fighting it. ”
Go ahead then, be the first to volunteer. Buy your plane ticket, book your hotel, and go off the fight the ISIS and whatever the latest Islam boogie man.
Stephanie's Boyfriend
January 13, 2015 12:44 am
Damn if I ain’t banging one stupid cunt.
Llpoh
January 13, 2015 12:53 am
Steph’s Boyfriend – bet it costs you a fortune for paper bags.
SSS
January 13, 2015 12:57 am
“SSS – Please, tell me what is the perfect religion?”
—-Stephanie
Uh, none. I am not a religious person. But if push comes to shove, I’ll take the infinite wisdom of the guy behind Door #1. You may have heard of him. He died on a cross.
Medvyed
January 13, 2015 2:52 am
Odin does not die on a crucifix. He dies on a tree and comes back, bitches. Then he gets eaten by Fenrir.
Get your fucking facts right.
GilbertS
January 13, 2015 6:20 am
I already did. I got to go over there free of charge for two and a half years. There, I got to see how their peaceful religion works. The peaceful ones you meet are bad Muslims. Look at their own faith. You aren’t a good Muslim, unless you’re fighting. According to their own faith, unless you die in jihad, you really have no expectation of going to paradise. Even if you’re helping old ladies and giving charity-only the martyr is assured of paradise.
By the way-what’s the punishment if you leave the faith? What happens if you become an apostate?
In Christianity-nuthin’. Have a coke and a smile.
In Islam-Death.
And which faith preaches to kill the unbelievers wherever you find them and to kill the Jews? I forget.
It is a religious war, even if you don’t believe it. Look at what they preach-2 houses in the world. There’s the Muslim world, or the world of peace, and the non-Muslim world, or the world of war. Daar as Salaam vs Daar as Haarb. There are no rules, no off-limits in Haarb until they bring it into Salaam. Once they bring us all together under their religion, then they can kill us for not being Muslim enough or you not wearing enough of a veil or being the wrong sect, or whatever stupid reasons they seem to find for killing each other. If your refuse to see their religious war, it doesn’t mean they stop fighting it. You just have no frame of reference for why they do what they do. Go to youtube and look at their little Sharia zones in England and France where they can do whatever they want. That’s how it happens. A little agitation, demands for equal rights and respect, then before you know it, off-limits ghetto-stans with religious patrols and beatings for misbehavior, honor killings, and terrorists.
GilbertS
January 13, 2015 6:31 am
By the way-how many churches are there in Saudi Arabia?
When I was in Kuwait, they wouldn’t even let CNN say the word, “Israel.” When the newscaster said it, they bleeped it out. They even bleeped out “potty training.” One of my co-workers moved to Saudi-they cut the Israel right off his globe. They hacked up his I and J encyclopedias, too.
Such lovely people…
BTW-which nice, lovely people are the ones cutting people’s heads off in chop-chop square? Which ones are chopping off heads in Syria? Which loving people only renounced slavery officially in 1969, while allegedly still practicing it up to today (i.e. Sudan and Saudi). Which ones were forcing little kids to stand in the road to stop convoys in Iraq (and letting the kids get run over). Which ones were handcuffing guys to steering wheels of car bombs and ordering them to drive at us or lose their families? Which ones were raping their own kids? Which loving Muslims put a bomb vest on a retarded kid and tried to get him to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Which Sunnis were torturing Shiites? Which Shiites were torturing Sunnis? In Iraq, they use government buildings to do it. And which loving Muslims were the ones who dropped 55 gallon drums full of nerve gas on Halabja? Which loving Muslims blew up the ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan under the Taliban? Which ones were responsible for 911, the first WTC attack, and if you believe the conspiracy theories, which ones were involved in OKC? Which loving Muslims were involved in Bali or Madrid? And what about the Achille Lauro? Which loving Muslim killed an unarmed old man in a wheel chair? And on and on and on it goes. They’re going to keep killing us until we wise up. England and Europe are finally starting to get it, albeit late in the game.
IndenturedServant
January 13, 2015 7:14 am
Geez Clamster!You like Islam “Because of Islamic banking and its forbidden usury.”. Really? You can go online and find Islamic (Muslim) professors who explain Islamic banking. Basically it works like this: Joe Muslim wants to buy a house so he finds a house he likes, goes to the bank and the bank buys the house and sets up a payment plan. The payment plan does not include interest because the bank structures the purchase price plus interest into a single payment that Joe Muslim pays. The only difference between Joe Muslim’s house payment and mine is that mine is broken down to show interest and principal. His is simply a flat payment.
Islam is a Totalitarian Political System and those at the top live lives of extreme riches and extravagance. Just like in the west, those at the top own the banks and they sure as hell collect interest. They just don’t call it that and the pig ignorant and compliant muslims fall for the shit hook line and sinker. They control the hearts, minds and physical bodies of any idiot dumb enough to fall for the con. Every aspect of their lives are dictated from the top down. How the fuck can you respect that?
Ann Barnhardt has an excellent article up now that deserves to be posted here on TBP as a stand alone post.
FWIW, I basically agree with you that making fun of Mohammed or North Korea or any other group is rather idiotic as a professional endeavor but I’ll defend the freedom that allows it long before I’ll condemn their right to do it. As with everything in life, there are usually consequences. It’s no secret that brainwashed Muslims can and will attack those who they perceive to be insulting them. Salman Rushdie was one of the first in recent history to come under attack so this shit has been known about and ongoing since you were born…………and for centuries before that. Those that made a career of it at Hebdo knew it too. Live and learn………..or don’t.
flash
January 13, 2015 7:29 am
SSS@ 12:57 +1000
How do I intellectually explain that Jesus is the Son of God and that the cross I wear around my neck is his symbol? Forget about Isaiah predicting his coming 700 years earlier, and forget about his disciples returning after having fled the sight of his Crucifixion, more emboldened in their knowledge that he was the Son of God. Call them myths, if you like. Forget the miracles he performed. Having a mystic relationship with God is the ultimate grace awarded a Christian, something no other religion can claim. (Devout Muslims drink whisky behind closed doors believing Allah can’t see them.) Jesus descended among men to show them what their true nature was. He wanted to show them what a perfect man was like. God made men free, and Jesus set the stage by refusing to use his power. The Catholic religion to me, with its doctrine of love and unconditional acceptance of sinners, makes emotional sense. In absence of certainty, why not settle for sense, as in the Catholic and Christian dogma of turning the other cheek? Even Charles Darwin believed in God, a fact ignored by publicity seekers like Richard Dawkins, as did Plato, Aristotle and Albert Einstein. “Science without religion is lame,” Einstein said. “And religion without science is blind,” he added.
Yeah, when I was there, a Turkish guy was explaining to me they used to all drive up to Iraq to buy alcohol from the Christians before we invaded. They also went to Dubai to party and nothing was off-limits because they claim, “Allah can’t see you in Dubai.” Some of them even asked our guys to smuggle them pork so they could have that, too. I thought that was pretty funny.
The militants we caught often had the vilest porn. In Mosul, there were whore houses. And if you search youtube, you may find some humorous videos troops captured on night vision of Iraqis raping donkeys. They also practice pedophilia, believing that raping little boys is OK-women are reserved for making babies. We caught their air force guys having romantic little episodes every Friday night on my base. The Gulf Arabs import their whores from the West. They typically have finders who go out, select porn actresses and other likely women, and pay them thousands to spend a week or two in an apartment, ready for action at a moment’s notice. And look up the systematic abuse of Afghan kids through the Tea Boy system. They’ll take on some kid as a gofer, rape him for a period of time, and eventually he’s part of the gang, ready to join in the fun. Oh, and one thing we all sort of figured was the high number of retarded kids in Baghdad was the result of generations of molestation and inbreeding. Apparently, it was considered OK to rape a daughter to ensure she was good marriage material. Lovely people. Absolutely lovely. And what a beautiful religion, too!
GilbertS
January 13, 2015 5:11 pm
Oh, and I couldn’t leave out the religious police in Saudi who forced girls to burn to death in their madrassah because when the building caught fire, they were too immodest to grab their veils before trying to run out of the building. Those little girls died for that lovely, lovely religion of peace and tolerance.
Oh! Oh! And the Iranian assholes who kill women for such things as riding bicycles, wearing blue jeans, or not wearing head coverings.
And the Saudi rapists who get off scot-free because you need 2 male witnesses to charge a man with the crime of rape. The woman, if she complains, is considered a whore and liable to be stoned or whatever punishment is reserved for a whore there.
Lovely, lovely people. Islam is truly doing wonders for the world.
[img.jpg)
[/img]
I understand people can be offended by these things. But to turn to violence is the act of undeveloped intellect and shows a lack of humanity.
The Muslims need to advance beyond the dark ages. We no longer burn witches.
Je ne suis pas Charlie. This whole event is not an argument of the limits of freedom of speech nor those hindering it, this debate is about the freedom to insult or the freedom to agitate. Why did Charlie Hebdo ever think insulting an entire religion by depicting Muhammad was a good idea? Why did Sony and the State Department think it was a good idea to produce a movie mocking a current Head of State and depicting an assassination of Kim Jong Un? Why did that crazy pastor in Florida think it was a good idea to make a movie entitled “Innocence of Muslims” and burn the Quran for fun?
Why does anybody think these were good ideas? Insulting Muhammad in the eyes of Muslims is like saying Hilter was doing God’s will by killing Jews or calling President Obama a nigger. While there are people who agree with all of these forms of freedom of speech (or opinions) one has to wonder what is the value of them? What was the value of Charlie Hebdo insulting Islam in such a blatantly moronic way? In one issue of Charlie Hebdo, which by the way only has a subscriber based of 45,000 people for its weekly publication, they put Muhammad on the cover saying “100 lashes to anyone who does not die laughing”. Of all the people shouting and uniting for freedom of speech I have not heard one argument over the value of the actual content. Most were gleeful at Bradley Manning going to jail, calling Edward Snowden a traitor to the United States, or Aaron Schwartz being criminally prosecuted for stealing and publishing academic journals. The information they were releasing had value to the public. What has been making the news as freedom of speech has really been tacky content.
Steph – you are missing the point, with all due respect.
You are applying your views. You are so entitled.
But we must not regulate speech or expression. Because if we go down that path, there is no end to it. And in the end, who do you think will decide what is appropriate and what is not? It most certainly will not be you nor I.
If folks find something distasteful, they can choose not to read it. In the case of Hedbo, seems like 45,000 find it worthwhile. Even 1 is enough.
“You are applying your views.”
Which is the exact point of commentary and opinion. My opinion is just because there are laws and institutions protecting freedom of speech many people in history have died while exercising their right to freedom of speech. But, this does make for a good news story and we will be seeing 1 million different narratives and opinion pieces in the weeks to come arguing freedom of speech and condemning violent Islam. The news and media will love all the ‘likes’ and ‘shares’ over the debates that really don’t need to get debated. Yes, freedom of speech is important and mentally ill people killing others over their perverse understandings of religion. I am here saying depicting Muhammad is tacky. Making a movie about the assassination of Kim Jong Un is tacky. Organizing Quran burnings and making a movie insulting Islam is tacky.
Lots of things are tacky. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Burning the Koran and making fun of Islam – to me that seems to be de rigueur. Those fuckwits deserve it and then some.
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSAOlQV5N_-uk4C5KAPW6UC4uW2zIBLzUqovgmS-KFenn3dm-_8[/img]
Then you sir are tacky too. I happen to like Islam and United States itself should have a debt of gratitude to Muhammad considering he was the first statesman to draft a constitution, to all freedom of speech and a freedom of religion. The current media bias against Islam is completely detached from the actually history of Muhammad’s works or the religion itself.
Steph – no offense, but I have forgotten more about Islam than you know.
Muhammad was a murdering rapist war-mongering slaver pedophile. His followers find ample lessons and examples for the atrocities they commit – from beheadings to rape etc. in his actions.
I challenge anyone to point out similar in the actions of Christ.
Islam is not a religion of peace. Quite the contrary. It was founded by a brutal war-lord. And its foundations are unchanged to this day.
Llpoh- If that is your understanding of Islam and Muhammad you need to read more books written by actual theologists and stop listening to Rush Limbaugh (who is also tacky).
Steph – I have a degree in this shit. I have read thousands of pages on this subject.
Everything I said re Muhammad is factual, and can be 100% corroborated. Some folks defend his actions based on “well, it was acceptable at the time”. Horseshit is what I say to that.
His murdering was legion. He beheaded 900 Jews who surrendered to him unconditionally.
He tortured his captives.
He gave his “followers” permission to rape slaves and captives: “he made it lawful for male masters to have sexual relations with female captives and slaves”
He married a nine year old.
He took his adopted son’s wife from him.
He took untold numbers of slaves during his wars.
Seriously, Steph, get a fucking clue. Read a few thousand pages on this religion, and augment it with tens of thousands of pages on the other major religions -Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, etc., so you can get a proper overall perspective, then come back and we will have an educated discussion.
You are ignorant on this subject and do not know it. I may be wrong on my conclusions, which is what debate is for, but the stuff above is FACT and there is simply no denying it.
What are your sources? Can you currently do a google search and give me links? Because I am basing my statements on the actual “Constitution of Medina” written by Muhammad himself.
” I happen to like Islam ……..” ————– Clams
Why? Because you wear a burka? Because you know your place as a woman? Because you are so good at tolerating other opinions? Because you thought Peter O’Toole was sexy in Lawrence Of Arabia? Because you read some comic book story that Moohummid tolerated infidels??? BWAAHAHAHAHA!!
Wow. Just when I thought you were getting smarter ….. you fooled me but good.
” Why?”
Because of Islamic banking and its forbidden usury.
“Because you read some comic book story that Moohummid tolerated infidels?”
” The Jews of the Banu ‘Awf are one community with the believers. To the Jews their religion and to the Muslims their religion. [This applies] to their clients and to themselves with the exception of anyone who has done wrong or committed treachery, for he harms only himself and his family.”
Freedom of religion according to the Constitution of Medina written by Muhammad.
Steph – Muhammad was an ACTUAL historic figure. There is tons of stuff out there. Some of it is in the Koran. Or the Hadith. But there are myriad historical records. A lot of oral tradition exists as well. Do a search – it will come pouring out.
I have no interest in doing the research for you. I have already done it in spades for myself. I try to avoid religious debate as it wearies me, but I do make an exception re pointing out that Islam is not a religion of peace, it is a religion of conquest, it has as its main tenet submission to Allah and wants Islamic world domination, it has its roots in war, and its founder was a war-lord.
There is no other religion like it. It is going to be the cause of major conflict, and it has cost the lives of many millions of people already – Hope says 250 million, and I will not quibble with her over the number.
I have no interest in doing the research for you.
No, you have no interest in me attacking your sources or discrediting them. You are not up for the challenge, I get it, it would be hard to support your bias against somebody looking closely at your sources. I have already pointed to my first source, I can also dig up many sources on current and past Islam banking, which fundamentals concerning finance are brilliant economic principles. I could also point you towards the religion forbidding usury, as oppose to Judaism or Christianity’s loophole of using court Jews to allow usury. I could also point you toward information of how Christian nobility through the ages used Jews to finance their war and empires and the persecuted Jews when they held too much of the nobility’s debt. I could even point you towards the mathematical and technological advances that came into existence because of Islam, the most important being algebra (Al-Gebra, get it?)
Stephanie says she likes Islam because of its condemnation of usury and the Constitution of Medina, a document which cannot be authenticated. That’s it?
Do you like honor killings (available for your viewing pleasure on YouTube)? How about stoning to death adulteresses (available for your viewing pleasure on YouTube)?
How about we take up a collection for a SOLO round trip ticket to Saudi Arabia with the proviso that YOU MUST TAKE YOUR WESTERN VALUES WITH YOU AND ACT AND DRESS ACCORDINGLY? Just one other rule: no companions at any time. None. Totally solo.
Remember, act and dress accordingly. Deal?
SSS- Please, tell me what is the perfect religion?
No expert on Religions here, but it is hard to consider a religion that condones suicide bombings, that preaches death to all who don’t believe, not understanding; seems to me to be something other than a Religion.
Stephanie, are you the same woman who plans on marrying Charles Manson? Just curious, because there is a resemblance somewhere.
“Freedom of religion according to the Constitution of Medina written by Muhammad.” —-Clams
Well, well, well. Well!!
Your little comment above tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about your supposed knowledge of Islam, and that is to say …….virtually NOTHING. You didn’t just make a slight error, or a typo, or an inadvertent oversight. You made a HUGE error of even the most BASIC aspect about Mohammid. It proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that your so-called knowledge of Islam is nothing more than what you googled in the past day, or so.
For you see ……… old Mo COULD NEITHER READ OR WRITE. I’ll even do the research for you … here, from a mooslim website;
“All historians are unanimous that the Prophet was an unlettered man who had never known books or teachers and never learned how to write. The Qur’an itself addressed him as follows: ———– “Before this, you did not read any book, nor did you write anything with your hands”. (29:48).
http://www.al-islam.org/authenticity-quran-shaykh-muslim-bhanji/prophet-muhammad-s-was-unlettered
Pick up another hobby. Game. Set. Match.
The Constitution of Medina is oft considered to have been naught but a political exercise by Muhammad to buy time to build strength. You see, a bit later, after he had built strength, Muhammad expelled the Jews that he had promised equality to in the “Constitution”. Funny that. Muhammad was very wily indeed.
Stuck – it is generally accepted that Muhammad was indeed the architect of the Constitution of Medina. What is disputed is the integrity thereof – that it was a ploy (much as the treaties signed with the American Indians to buy peace) to buy enough time to allow Muhammad to marshal his strength and then evict the Jews, which is indeed what happened.
Muhammad was a wily, vicious warlord.
Mooslims lie as easily as breathing when dealing with infidels (anyone not like them). In fact, Allah wants them to lie. They even have a word for this doctrine …. Taqiyya … doctrine explained here;
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/011-taqiyya.htm
That’s why any peace treaty with a mooslim is worth less than the paper it’s writtin on … literally.
Not only was Moohammid a goat fucker, he was a lying goat fucker.
Its Muslims, stating it as “Mooslims” makes me not take you seriously.
Btw, Did you know Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman fellow at the David Horowitz Freedom Center and here is the foundation’s criticisms:
“In its 2011 report, “Fear Incorporated: the Roots of the Islamophobia Network in the United States” the Center for American Progress cited Horowitz as a prominent figure instrumental in demonizing Islam and spreading fear about an Islamic takeover of Western society. Horowitz’s response was that the Center had “joined the Muslim Brotherhood.”
“The Anti-Defamation League writes that Horowitz sponsors a college campus project that promotes anti-Muslim views and arranges events with anti-Muslim activists”
Yeah, no bias from Raymond Ibrahim or his affiliation with David Horowitz…
Steph is getting perhaps the worst thumb beat-down in TBP history. I should know – I think I may have the # 2-10 spots myself.
“worst thumb beat-down in TBP history.”
You must have amnesia, the worst thumb down loss in TBP history was your own vigilant arguments against servers not claiming all their tips and paying their full amount of taxes. Stucky can even vouch for me considering he is the one who counted the votes and proclaimed your defeat.
Say what you want against Islam but I take the same stance when anybody is critical of an entire religion based on prejudice and bigotry. I would also defend Christianity against the atheists arguments and Judaism against Islamist arguments. I have a problem with people trying to shame an entire religion of millions of people.
Further criticisms of David Horowitz:
Chip Berlet, writing for the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC), identified Horowitz’s Center for the Study of Popular Culture (formerly called the freedom foundation) as one of 17 “right-wing foundations and think tanks supporting efforts to make bigoted and discredited ideas respectable.”
“In 2008, while speaking at UCSB, Horowitz stated that the keffiyah, the traditional Arab head covering made famous by PLO leader Yasser Arafat, is a symbol of terrorism. In response, UCSB professor Walid Afifi accused Horowitz of “preaching hate” and smearing Arab culture”
In 2011, he was listed by the Southern Poverty Law Center as one of 10 people in the United States’ “Anti-Muslim Inner Circle.”
And a link from Southern Poverty Law Center Website about David Horowitz
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2014/summer/The-Godfather
Steph – you are full of shit. I am critical of Islam because of what the fuck it says. It says it is ok to kill non-believers, to rape those that are captured, to charge fees of non-believers who live in areas they control. Islam – the Hadiths – give as punishment death to those that leave Islam. Look around – adherents of Islam freely admit this stuff. It is all there, all you have to do is look. “Moderates” try to deny it is there, but make no mistake, there it is. And let us not talk about Sharia.
Islam is an evil religion as far as I am concerned- get it? My position is based on what the fuck the religion says it is about. All this stuff is right there in black and white – in the Koran, or in the Hadiths.
How are you too dense to understand that? You claim I am bigoted, but I can point to facts that absolutely support my position. If you want to believe it is a nice, do-good religion – go for it. But convert, travel to Yemen and propose that you are leaving the religion and see what happens. They will quite possibly cut your head off, enlightened souls that they are. The Hadiths support that punishment, you see. The penalty for apostasy is death.
Fact is, you are still a mental midget. I am through with you. I thought you had matured, but no. You wish to cover your ignorance and stupidity by calling facts prejudice and bigotry.
Going from Stephanie’s first comment-
Stephanie-SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Do you know why I, and the rest of the human race not stupid enough to believe the ignorant backwards-ass rantings and ravings of a moon-worshipping child-molesting highway robber, get to mock or criticize or insult or otherwise show less than 100% obedience to Islam? Because I’ve got eyes in my head to see, the brains to consider, and the God-given Constitution-enumerated right to say whatever the fuck I want.
People shouldn’t have to fear ignorant weirdbeards coming to kill them just for not believing in their stupid religion. Somehow the rest of the planet figured out a long time ago that we could worship our own gods without torturing and killing others. Comments like yours only absolve them of their culpability. You should be holding them responsible, not defining deviance down by saying, “Well, they got what they deserved for pissing off people who are obviously violent.”
If you think Islam is some panacea, you’re a sucker of the first order. Go over there and learn about it first-hand. I was over there and fuck Islam and its stupid believers. It’s the world’s most fucked up institution.
Oh, and the more pious they appear, the more full of shit they are. Each one of those holy warriors and babbling weirdbeards is watching the nastiest porn, engaging in homosexual sex, raping women and/or animals, visiting prostitutes, drinking alcohol, and worse. The further south you go on the peninsula, the more FOS they are.
Islamophobia? What a retarded term and a lame attempt to beat people over the head into accommodating something that is trying to kill them. In this day and age, being an “Islamophobe” isn’t hatred; it’s a survival mechanism. In case you hadn’t noticed, they have a peculiar tendency to suffer SJS (Sudden Jihad Syndrome) and lash out at random people, blow things up, cut people’s heads off, and otherwise act like barbarians. I forget which imam stated Muslims in the West should consider themselves soldiers trapped behind enemy lines.
It’s a religious war; we need to accept it and start fighting it.
” If you want to believe it is a nice, do-good religion”
I will continue to believe just that as I do with other religions. It helps that I have met many nice Muslims in real life. Every Muslim I have met have been nice and passive people. So got ahead and dissent every bad thing you can regarding Islam as a religion, it will always fall short on me.
“It’s a religious war; we need to accept it and start fighting it. ”
Go ahead then, be the first to volunteer. Buy your plane ticket, book your hotel, and go off the fight the ISIS and whatever the latest Islam boogie man.
Damn if I ain’t banging one stupid cunt.
Steph’s Boyfriend – bet it costs you a fortune for paper bags.
“SSS – Please, tell me what is the perfect religion?”
—-Stephanie
Uh, none. I am not a religious person. But if push comes to shove, I’ll take the infinite wisdom of the guy behind Door #1. You may have heard of him. He died on a cross.
Odin does not die on a crucifix. He dies on a tree and comes back, bitches. Then he gets eaten by Fenrir.
Get your fucking facts right.
I already did. I got to go over there free of charge for two and a half years. There, I got to see how their peaceful religion works. The peaceful ones you meet are bad Muslims. Look at their own faith. You aren’t a good Muslim, unless you’re fighting. According to their own faith, unless you die in jihad, you really have no expectation of going to paradise. Even if you’re helping old ladies and giving charity-only the martyr is assured of paradise.
By the way-what’s the punishment if you leave the faith? What happens if you become an apostate?
In Christianity-nuthin’. Have a coke and a smile.
In Islam-Death.
And which faith preaches to kill the unbelievers wherever you find them and to kill the Jews? I forget.
It is a religious war, even if you don’t believe it. Look at what they preach-2 houses in the world. There’s the Muslim world, or the world of peace, and the non-Muslim world, or the world of war. Daar as Salaam vs Daar as Haarb. There are no rules, no off-limits in Haarb until they bring it into Salaam. Once they bring us all together under their religion, then they can kill us for not being Muslim enough or you not wearing enough of a veil or being the wrong sect, or whatever stupid reasons they seem to find for killing each other. If your refuse to see their religious war, it doesn’t mean they stop fighting it. You just have no frame of reference for why they do what they do. Go to youtube and look at their little Sharia zones in England and France where they can do whatever they want. That’s how it happens. A little agitation, demands for equal rights and respect, then before you know it, off-limits ghetto-stans with religious patrols and beatings for misbehavior, honor killings, and terrorists.
By the way-how many churches are there in Saudi Arabia?
When I was in Kuwait, they wouldn’t even let CNN say the word, “Israel.” When the newscaster said it, they bleeped it out. They even bleeped out “potty training.” One of my co-workers moved to Saudi-they cut the Israel right off his globe. They hacked up his I and J encyclopedias, too.
Such lovely people…
BTW-which nice, lovely people are the ones cutting people’s heads off in chop-chop square? Which ones are chopping off heads in Syria? Which loving people only renounced slavery officially in 1969, while allegedly still practicing it up to today (i.e. Sudan and Saudi). Which ones were forcing little kids to stand in the road to stop convoys in Iraq (and letting the kids get run over). Which ones were handcuffing guys to steering wheels of car bombs and ordering them to drive at us or lose their families? Which ones were raping their own kids? Which loving Muslims put a bomb vest on a retarded kid and tried to get him to blow up an Israeli checkpoint? Which Sunnis were torturing Shiites? Which Shiites were torturing Sunnis? In Iraq, they use government buildings to do it. And which loving Muslims were the ones who dropped 55 gallon drums full of nerve gas on Halabja? Which loving Muslims blew up the ancient Buddhist statues in Afghanistan under the Taliban? Which ones were responsible for 911, the first WTC attack, and if you believe the conspiracy theories, which ones were involved in OKC? Which loving Muslims were involved in Bali or Madrid? And what about the Achille Lauro? Which loving Muslim killed an unarmed old man in a wheel chair? And on and on and on it goes. They’re going to keep killing us until we wise up. England and Europe are finally starting to get it, albeit late in the game.
Geez Clamster!You like Islam “Because of Islamic banking and its forbidden usury.”. Really? You can go online and find Islamic (Muslim) professors who explain Islamic banking. Basically it works like this: Joe Muslim wants to buy a house so he finds a house he likes, goes to the bank and the bank buys the house and sets up a payment plan. The payment plan does not include interest because the bank structures the purchase price plus interest into a single payment that Joe Muslim pays. The only difference between Joe Muslim’s house payment and mine is that mine is broken down to show interest and principal. His is simply a flat payment.
Islam is a Totalitarian Political System and those at the top live lives of extreme riches and extravagance. Just like in the west, those at the top own the banks and they sure as hell collect interest. They just don’t call it that and the pig ignorant and compliant muslims fall for the shit hook line and sinker. They control the hearts, minds and physical bodies of any idiot dumb enough to fall for the con. Every aspect of their lives are dictated from the top down. How the fuck can you respect that?
Ann Barnhardt has an excellent article up now that deserves to be posted here on TBP as a stand alone post.
FWIW, I basically agree with you that making fun of Mohammed or North Korea or any other group is rather idiotic as a professional endeavor but I’ll defend the freedom that allows it long before I’ll condemn their right to do it. As with everything in life, there are usually consequences. It’s no secret that brainwashed Muslims can and will attack those who they perceive to be insulting them. Salman Rushdie was one of the first in recent history to come under attack so this shit has been known about and ongoing since you were born…………and for centuries before that. Those that made a career of it at Hebdo knew it too. Live and learn………..or don’t.
SSS@ 12:57 +1000
How do I intellectually explain that Jesus is the Son of God and that the cross I wear around my neck is his symbol? Forget about Isaiah predicting his coming 700 years earlier, and forget about his disciples returning after having fled the sight of his Crucifixion, more emboldened in their knowledge that he was the Son of God. Call them myths, if you like. Forget the miracles he performed. Having a mystic relationship with God is the ultimate grace awarded a Christian, something no other religion can claim. (Devout Muslims drink whisky behind closed doors believing Allah can’t see them.) Jesus descended among men to show them what their true nature was. He wanted to show them what a perfect man was like. God made men free, and Jesus set the stage by refusing to use his power. The Catholic religion to me, with its doctrine of love and unconditional acceptance of sinners, makes emotional sense. In absence of certainty, why not settle for sense, as in the Catholic and Christian dogma of turning the other cheek? Even Charles Darwin believed in God, a fact ignored by publicity seekers like Richard Dawkins, as did Plato, Aristotle and Albert Einstein. “Science without religion is lame,” Einstein said. “And religion without science is blind,” he added.
Yeah, when I was there, a Turkish guy was explaining to me they used to all drive up to Iraq to buy alcohol from the Christians before we invaded. They also went to Dubai to party and nothing was off-limits because they claim, “Allah can’t see you in Dubai.” Some of them even asked our guys to smuggle them pork so they could have that, too. I thought that was pretty funny.
The militants we caught often had the vilest porn. In Mosul, there were whore houses. And if you search youtube, you may find some humorous videos troops captured on night vision of Iraqis raping donkeys. They also practice pedophilia, believing that raping little boys is OK-women are reserved for making babies. We caught their air force guys having romantic little episodes every Friday night on my base. The Gulf Arabs import their whores from the West. They typically have finders who go out, select porn actresses and other likely women, and pay them thousands to spend a week or two in an apartment, ready for action at a moment’s notice. And look up the systematic abuse of Afghan kids through the Tea Boy system. They’ll take on some kid as a gofer, rape him for a period of time, and eventually he’s part of the gang, ready to join in the fun. Oh, and one thing we all sort of figured was the high number of retarded kids in Baghdad was the result of generations of molestation and inbreeding. Apparently, it was considered OK to rape a daughter to ensure she was good marriage material. Lovely people. Absolutely lovely. And what a beautiful religion, too!
Oh, and I couldn’t leave out the religious police in Saudi who forced girls to burn to death in their madrassah because when the building caught fire, they were too immodest to grab their veils before trying to run out of the building. Those little girls died for that lovely, lovely religion of peace and tolerance.
Oh! Oh! And the Iranian assholes who kill women for such things as riding bicycles, wearing blue jeans, or not wearing head coverings.
And the Saudi rapists who get off scot-free because you need 2 male witnesses to charge a man with the crime of rape. The woman, if she complains, is considered a whore and liable to be stoned or whatever punishment is reserved for a whore there.
Lovely, lovely people. Islam is truly doing wonders for the world.