Comment by TPC the was so good it deserved to be a post
I was at the bar last night with my wife, having a few drinks with friends before heading home for the evening. As our friends cleared out, my wife and I were “accosted” by some Bernie-bots.
“ARE YOU FEELING THE BERN?” one gleefully cheered as he went to stick a campaign sticker on my shoulder.
I adroitly dodged it with a mildly bemused expression on my face. I’ve dealt with this sort of idiocy before and just wanted to pay my tab and get the fuck out of dodge. My darling wife, however, wears her heart on her sleeve, and couldn’t keep a good old fashioned “fuck no” from being smeared across her pretty face. There was also a “go fuck yourself” eye roll tucked in there as well, she’s talented that way.
Honestly, I wish you could have been there. My wife’s nonverbal communication can crush a man’s will to live in nanoseconds….not that I have experience in that arena….
Anyway, they immediately began to shout “BOOO” at her, and asking “DON’T YOU WANT TO FIX AMERICA? DON’T YOU WANT A PRESIDENT THAT WILL FIGHT FOR YOUR?”
My wife kind of shunted to the side with the two followers and began walking them (patiently) through our views, repeatedly having to say “Yes, Trump is a bad candidate, but we aren’t talking about him right now.”
I was tasked with tackling the head Bernie-bot, a young man from Arizona who has only ever done volunteer work for a living, and has attended (but not finished) education at University of Phoenix (physically attended). Not only that, but the man was actually a bought and paid for Bernie-supporter, traveling the nation a week ahead of a primary to put up flyers, organize groups, and gather support.
It was his first night in our town, if I believed in God I would say he was smiling down on me.
I opened with “I’m about 50% on Sanders, he’s spot on about corruption and money in politics, and I do like his stance on a lot of social issues, and you can’t deny that he is 100% true to his view, virtually unchanged throughout 40 years of politics…..its just that the last 50% is unconscionable.”
He was nodding sagely along, smiling and encouraging until that last word left my mouth. The shock was stamped plainly across his face.
We then spent the next 40 minutes to an hour with me patiently explaining why his policies were unsustainable on the large scale, and that the Northern European model was not perfect, and in fact has been undergoing its own collapse.
When he used his experience working with inner city kids as proof that he was better than me, I had several years of volunteer work of my own to follow up with.
When he brought white privilege up, my poor pig farming multi-divorce family trumped his suburban two parent household.
At each turn he got more and more angry, more and more frustrated. As the conversation wound down he began to look panicked and scared, actively trying to edge towards the door and escape back to Bernie-land, where things like reality and truth have no place.
As he left I shook his hand, smiling all the while, and told him “stay safe, and stay warm.” As he bustled out the door I noticed my wife was still speaking with the man’s two converts. It was obvious that their stance was on increasingly shaky ground, they looked depressed, and were almost bargaining with my wife with respect to government intervention.
“Well yes, I can understand that not everybody’s problems are the same, but we still need more involvement on a NATIONAL scale…”, to which my wife would spin them around, and set them back down completely disoriented, fielding their concerns left and right with beautiful aplomb.
I was so proud of her.
As I lay in bed that night I realized what we had been seeing was the 5 stages of grief.
Our initial disagreement was met with complete shock, followed closely by anger. As the night rolled on, all three of them experienced depression. The ring-leader bailed on the conversation before I could do more work, but the two followers even made it to Stage 4- Bargaining before calling it a night.
In a single night, a single conversation, we had managed to seriously disturb people who previously were 100% convinced they were utterly right in their convictions.
Of course they went through the 5 stages of grief, we were killing their dream, right before their eyes.
I think what shocked me the most was just how easy it was. These people are not like me, or you. They do not question, argue, or fight. They do not defend their stance, and are not use to a battle.
They are followers, through and through. Little lambs, pretending to be fully fledged sheep.
I probably wasted my time in the long run, but it made me feel better to at least try to change someone else’s mind.
I admire the patience that took.
Kudos to the missus.
Wish I was sitting there listening to it. Another definition: Useful idiots.
To be honest, I would rather some overzealous person root for Bernie than Hitlery. I can see the appeal to Bernie, even if his economic policies sound like Communism most of the time. At least he doesn’t seem to be owned and beholden, or the queen of the folks that don’t really care for the US, and just use it as their personal wealth–playground and Army. The Clinton followers are the folks that really scare me, they must just be rooting for team Democrat regardless of anything. It’s like Rep’s getting excited about Mitt Romney, what a joke. This is the most interesting election I can remember, beyond the brief Ross Perot rebellion “Nafta giant sucking sound” and his Math charts. The smoking mirrors and circus show is getting a bit rattled, Politics seems more like Hollywood acting than anything else. But Sanders/and Trump have both got under the skin of the status quo debt-warmongers.
Yes the Berniebots are the dumbest of the dumb, politically speaking. They are the most misguided because they lack life experience. This usually is due to youth but not always. I know someone who is well into middle age, but spent the first 30 years in academia, then went right to a corporate job. This person never lived anywhere but the suburbs, never worked a minimum wage job, never dealt with the dregs of society on a daily basis, doesn’t have immigrants taking over their paycheck (yet), thinks they will call the police if someone tries to hurt them, etc. They are a Berniebot. What a surprise!
But really I have no luck arguing and converting people. Because really my views have been formed over a long period of time not only through life experience but through a careful accounting of history, economics, politics, real psychology, and human behavior. You take all this time invested in such and try to convert it into words to communicate with a guy who smokes pot, plays video games, and watches viral videos for a living. I’ve never figured out how to do it. I don’t have the patience for it anymore, either. When I meet the Berniebots at the bar I just smile and nod.
Thanks TPC
Great read!
This morning much the same happened here in my office following a Postmortem on last night. Everyone was railing against Trump. A person who describes himself as a Conservative and would never consider voting NDP, a left wing political party in Canada, spoke up. Here he was trying to make case for the Bern. I couldn’t help but see the contradiction. Anyways I tried pointing this out but was shouted down.
Like you, I can agree with some of what the left says but I do not believe in identity politics. It is Marxist and collectivist in nature and designed to divide not engage. How can anyone be an individual with free thought and agency when first and foremost they have to be defined as a vector inside this pyramid of oppression. Those fully indoctrinated take deflection and projection to heights not possible a generation ago. That is the foundation of my underlying contempt for the regressive left. When you do engage finally in the ideas they cannot not help but fall into time tested ad hominen attacks. Attacking ones character rather than their idea for what ever is the hot button topic of day. Like watching a dog chasing it’s tail the regressive leftist hopes that after a while you just get tired and walk away. Many like me are growing increasingly tired that these people have all the answers. That we should just get in our lines and come forward when called. It’s time to step out of the queue and like Winston Smith in 1984 throw off the chains of political correctness and start talking not just about ideas but real solutions. But it’s is easier to follow a prophet than to stand on what you believe.
I don’t think you wasted your time. Maybe those last night won’t be swayed. But they will talk to others and some will also read what you wrote here. If by chance you open one persons eyes somewhere then I it will be worth it.
But that is my .02 cents.
Rob In Nova Scotia
I can see the appeal of Bernie to many folks. They are the types that blame everyone else for their failed lives…I bet my Dad likes Bernie.
Bernie like Trump appeals to the part of the human psyche that is tired of the status quo too , both represent a break with business as usual . The difference is Bernie wants to take and re-distribute money in a public way ie. “You rich folks get ready because I’m coming for you ” .
Trump will do it through tax breaks for the 1/10 of 1% and a continuation of the Federal Reserve .
In Weimar, people would bounce back and forth between the Communists and the Nazis. Extremists are extremists one way or another.
The extremists in the Democrat Party are likely to surge to Trump once Bernie is gone. They despise Hillary (obviously) so watch the surge, just like the 20,000 people in Massachusetts.
Do I regard Trump as an extremist? No. Is he some kind of KKK/Nazi idiot? Of course not. But he is seen AS extreme by the Bernies and so they will coalesce around him. Just watch.
Whoa, my first post. Thanks guys, that means a lot to me.
@Rob – He tried to steer the conversation into ad hominem territory a few times, however it was pretty basic stuff, and it was real easy to divert him back onto the real issues.
He was like a mini-Rubio, spouting off the same bullshit he had been programmed to say, overandoverandover.
Poor bastard. To reach his age (he’s a year or so older than me) and have had zero original thoughts must be a terrible thing.
I too, admire your patience and kindness.
Mitt Romney has been tweeting about Trump. Implying tax fraud
and hypocrisy on immigration. How loathsome.
So Trump is a “bad person” or as Ann B. says, anyone running
for office is a psychopath. I do not agree. Nothing is an absolute.
No one is perfect.
Kennedy was assassinated because a number of interest groups
felt threatened. Imagine the potential for plots against Trump.
What else are we seeing…Rubio bath boy, Cruz serial liar, Bernie
the beanie, and HRC, apparently a felon…and certainly a “very bad
person.” Have we heard that Trump has murdered his enemies?
No, we hear arrogant, rude, vulgar. I beg to differ. Gay porn actor, banker
owned shill, welfare panderer socialist and a likely felon…these are viable
candidates?
Our country is on the rocks. The wars and proxy wars are growing more
dangerous. Banks are failing and faking it. There are threats that our
savings accounts will be raided, and our retirement accounts have not
been funded. Our sky is filled with thick milky aerosols. We have lost
billions and trillions to fraud. Racial strife is being seeded by Soros $.
First amendment rights are being destroyed. Second amendment rights
are under attack. I am sure others could add to the list. We have been
used as fools. Then we have the vast spying networks.
Strong cynics will refuse to vote, or put Trump down as a potential dictator.
I think Trump is speaking truths that are really upsetting the status quo,
and thereby threatening the powers. Let’s celebrate the man’s courage.
And keep the man in our prayers, to the powers of good.
I give Trump and Sanders plaudits for at least starting a debate about things that for whatever reason were off limits in the narrative.
I bet many of the young folks just think he will get rid of their student debt. More election buying by offering free stuff.
I never liked my history classes,But i get the feeling i was one of the few who actually learned something. Few seem willing to learn from history and about not repeating mistakes. Communism and socialism and such. Our government has many who never learned from the Roman Empire or the Nazi’s.
Also i guess many didn’t have parents who explained that life isn’t free and there is almost always a catch.
The fact that Trump has so many career politicians who hate him.Makes me approve of him more.Though some of his thinking i don’t agree with.
Most Northern European countries have “free” education and health care. In Germany, though not everyone and anyone gets to go. You test into whatever vocation you want to make it into. Don’t score well too bad so sad.
Also, Germany doesn’t have majors like women’s studies, African American studies……
I have a relative who is a Dr. In Germany. He is only allowed to work 8 hours per day for his gov’t paycheck. He sees “cash” patients before and after hours.
90% of American teens probably couldn’t pass the University entrance exam in Germany. So yeah, free education for 10% of the American youth!!!! Real life is brutal.
IMO, the only person running with the proven character to be our President is Bernie Sanders. Tell me where I’m wrong.
Coast – “proven character”
OK, I’ll tell you: Ben Carson
@Constman54 is right, Germany tests you and you study what they feel you will be successful at. We had a foreign exchange student who had his heart set on studying his passion, but he didn’t have the grades for it in his university testing. He was accepted into a different program and will have a good career as he is a bright young man, but the people clamoring for “Free College” here in the US don’t realize that when other people write the check, they make the rules.
Unfortunately, like me, they will have to be burned (no pun intended) many times before they learn the truth.
This isn’t Germany. Thank God.
Bless you both for taking the time to instruct and educate instead of merely walking away. You may have profoundly changed the lives of those young people, having, for once, given them something of actual substance to chew on instead of the pablum they get fed at “school” and in media sound bytes.
It pains me no end that so few people understand that those in power never offer anything freely out of the goodness of their hearts (whether or not they even have hearts is debatable in and of itself). There are always strings, usually more like chains, attached. Want welfare and free food? Prepare to be vote slaves given just enough to keep you alive until the next time they need you, your future held ransom by their need to keep you in dependence. Want somebody else to manage your retirement for you? Get ready to locked into the two party system because you have to keep them in power in order to keep the benefits intact (and even then, you’ll still end up screwed.) Want to lower your taxes (which they have made ungodly high) by putting money in an IRA? Be prepared for us to tax the living hell out of you when a disaster happens and you need to withdraw it in an emergency. Heads they win, tails you lose.
In pretty much every case, you are better off telling them no thank you and taking the high road on your own two feet. If more people got that, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in.
But FREEEEE sounds so much better.
TPC – entering into any conversation with such nut jobs is the height of stupidity and a total waste of time.
No kudos from me for that. I taught you better. Your missus gets a pass. Putting up with you is penalty enough.
More patience than me…
There’s little to no difference between Boiny-Bots and straight up Communists.
And there’s a reason why the Germans shot Communists in the streets…
@Anon – Bernie bots, the real supporters, not the recent converts, are active socialists. Completely unashamed. His policies will directly increase taxes on people making above 100k (3% increase at each bracket) up until ~200k, at which point it skyrockets. Then when you start to break the million dollar mark you get a fat 90% income tax.
His scheme is designed to “normalize” all pay so that families make 50-100k, no more, no less. FREEDOM FOR EVERYONE!
Utter stupidity.
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@LLPOH – TPC – entering into any conversation with such nut jobs is the height of stupidity and a total waste of time.
No kudos from me for that. I taught you better. Your missus gets a pass. Putting up with you is penalty enough.
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My wife kind of drug me into it, I’m more of a “I’m drinking so go away sort of person.” She made significant headway with the two locals, they sort of run in similar circles to us so we may have laid some serious groundwork there.
As for the imported Bot from AZ, he was just fun to fuck with. Poor bastard really isn’t that bright, and really had trouble wrapping his mind around the concept that someone in our age bracket would disagree with him.
I bet he’ll give himself a participation ribbon today to assuage his ego, and then march out confidently to do battle with the evil producers of Western Missouri. Those shameless crooks that work every day to better themselves instead of donating half of their time to the government.
I am wasting my time on you. Does Cuba, Venezuela, Mugabe, Greece, Argentina, Communist Poland, collapse of the USSR, Spanish Revolution, Puerto Rico etc mean anything to you?
@Rob
— “I give Trump and Sanders plaudits for at least starting a debate about things that for whatever reason were off limits in the narrative.”
Perhaps it’s the narrative that has changed.
50% for Bernie. 50% for Trump. 100% plebeian gridlock.
Old script, new chapter.