Doug Casey On The End Of The Nation-State

Authored by Doug Casey via InternationalMan.com,

There have been a fair number of references to the subject of “phyles” in Casey Research publications over the years. This essay will discuss the topic in detail. Especially how phyles are likely to replace the nation-state, one of mankind’s worst inventions.

Now might be a good time to discuss the subject. We’ll have an almost unremitting stream of bad news, on multiple fronts, for years to come. So it might be good to keep a hopeful prospect in mind.

Let’s start by looking at where we’ve been. I trust you’ll excuse my skating over all of human political history in a few paragraphs, but my object is to provide a framework for where we’re going, rather than an anthropological monograph.

Mankind has, so far, gone through three main stages of political organization since Day One, say 200,000 years ago, when anatomically modern men started appearing. We can call them Tribes, Kingdoms, and Nation-States.

Karl Marx had a lot of things wrong, especially his moral philosophy. But one of the acute observations he made was that the means of production are perhaps the most important determinant of how a society is structured. Based on that, so far in history, only two really important things have happened: the Agricultural Revolution and the Industrial Revolution. Everything else is just a footnote.

Let’s see how these things relate.

The Agricultural Revolution and the End of Tribes

In prehistoric times, the largest political/economic group was the tribe. In that man is a social creature, it was natural enough to be loyal to the tribe. It made sense. Almost everyone in the tribe was genetically related, and the group was essential for mutual survival in the wilderness. That made them the totality of people that counted in a person’s life—except for “others” from alien tribes, who were in competition for scarce resources and might want to kill you for good measure.

Tribes tend to be natural meritocracies, with the smartest and the strongest assuming leadership. But they’re also natural democracies, small enough that everyone can have a say on important issues. Tribes are small enough that everybody knows everyone else, and knows what their weak and strong points are. Everyone falls into a niche of marginal advantage, doing what they do best, simply because that’s necessary to survive. Bad actors are ostracized or fail to wake up, in a pool of their own blood, some morning. Tribes are socially constraining but, considering the many faults of human nature, a natural and useful form of organization in a society with primitive technology.

As people built their pool of capital and technology over many generations, however, populations grew. At the end of the last Ice Age, around 12,000 years ago, all over the world, there was a population explosion. People started living in towns and relying on agriculture as opposed to hunting and gathering. Large groups of people living together formed hierarchies, with a king of some description on top of the heap.

Those who adapted to the new agricultural technology and the new political structure accumulated the excess resources necessary for waging extended warfare against tribes still living at a subsistence level. The more evolved societies had the numbers and the weapons to completely triumph over the laggards. If you wanted to stay tribal, you’d better live in the middle of nowhere, someplace devoid of the resources others might want. Otherwise it was a sure thing that a nearby kingdom would enslave you and steal your property.

The Industrial Revolution and the End of Kingdoms

From around 12,000 B.C. to roughly the mid-1600s, the world’s cultures were organized under strong men, ranging from petty lords to kings, pharaohs, or emperors.

It’s odd, to me at least, how much the human animal seems to like the idea of monarchy. It’s mythologized, especially in a medieval context, as a system with noble kings, fair princesses, and brave knights riding out of castles on a hill to right injustices. As my friend Rick Maybury likes to point out, quite accurately, the reality differs quite a bit from the myth. The king is rarely more than a successful thug, a Tony Soprano at best, or perhaps a little Stalin. The princess was an unbathed hag in a chastity belt, the knight a hired killer, and the shining castle on the hill the headquarters of a concentration camp, with plenty of dungeons for the politically incorrect.

With kingdoms, loyalties weren’t so much to the “country”—a nebulous and arbitrary concept—but to the ruler. You were the subject of a king, first and foremost. Your linguistic, ethnic, religious, and other affiliations were secondary. It’s strange how, when people think of the kingdom period of history, they think only in terms of what the ruling classes did and had. Even though, if you were born then, the chances were 98% you’d be a simple peasant who owned nothing, knew nothing beyond what his betters told him, and sent most of his surplus production to his rulers. But, again, the gradual accumulation of capital and knowledge made the next step possible: the Industrial Revolution.

The Industrial Revolution and the End of the Nation-State

As the means of production changed, with the substitution of machines for muscle, the amount of wealth took a huge leap forward. The average man still might not have had much, but the possibility to do something other than beat the earth with a stick for his whole life opened up, largely as a result of the Renaissance.

Then the game changed totally with the American and French Revolutions. People no longer felt they were owned by some ruler; instead they now gave their loyalty to a new institution, the nation-state. Some innate atavism, probably dating back to before humans branched from the chimpanzees about 3 million years ago, seems to dictate the Naked Ape to give his loyalty to something bigger than himself. Which has delivered us to today’s prevailing norm, the nation-state, a group of people who tend to share language, religion, and ethnicity. The idea of the nation-state is especially effective when it’s organized as a “democracy,” where the average person is given the illusion he has some measure of control over where the leviathan is headed.

On the plus side, by the end of the 18th century, the Industrial Revolution had provided the common man with the personal freedom, as well as the capital and technology, to improve things at a rapidly accelerating pace.

What caused the sea change?

I’ll speculate it was largely due to an intellectual factor, the invention of the printing press; and a physical factor, the widespread use of gunpowder. The printing press destroyed the monopoly the elites had on knowledge; the average man could now see that they were no smarter or “better” than he was. If he was going to fight them (conflict is, after all, what politics is all about), it didn’t have to be just because he was told to, but because he was motivated by an idea. And now, with gunpowder, he was on an equal footing with the ruler’s knights and professional soldiers.

Right now I believe we’re at the cusp of another change, at least as important as the ones that took place around 12,000 years ago and several hundred years ago. Even though things are starting to look truly grim for the individual, with collapsing economic structures and increasingly virulent governments, I suspect help is on the way from historical evolution. Just as the agricultural revolution put an end to tribalism and the industrial revolution killed the kingdom, I think we’re heading for another multipronged revolution that’s going to make the nation-state an anachronism. It won’t happen next month, or next year. But I’ll bet the pattern will start becoming clear within the lifetime of many now reading this.

What pattern am I talking about? Once again, a reference to the evil genius Karl Marx, with his concept of the “withering away of the State.” By the end of this century, I suspect the US and most other nation-states will have, for all practical purposes, ceased to exist.

The Problem with the State—And Your Nation-State

Of course, while I suspect that many of you are sympathetic to that sentiment, you also think the concept is too far out, and that I’m guilty of wishful thinking. People believe the state is necessary and—generally—good. They never even question whether the institution is permanent.

My view is that the institution of the state itself is a bad thing. It’s not a question of getting the right people into the government; the institution itself is hopelessly flawed and necessarily corrupts the people that compose it, as well as the people it rules. This statement invariably shocks people, who believe that government is both a necessary and permanent part of the cosmic firmament.

The problem is that government is based on coercion, and it is, at a minimum, suboptimal to base a social structure on institutionalized coercion. Let me urge you to read the Tannehills’ superb The Market for Liberty, which is available for free, download here.

One of the huge changes brought by the printing press and advanced exponentially by the Internet is that people are able to readily pursue different interests and points of view. As a result, they have less and less in common: living within the same political borders is no longer enough to make them countrymen. That’s a big change from pre-agricultural times when members of the same tribe had quite a bit—almost everything—in common. But this has been increasingly diluted in the times of the kingdom and the nation-state. If you’re honest, you may find you have very little in common with most of your countrymen besides superficialities and trivialities.

Ponder that point for a minute. What do you have in common with your fellow countrymen? A mode of living, (perhaps) a common language, possibly some shared experiences and myths, and a common ruler. But very little of any real meaning or importance. To start with, they’re more likely to be an active danger to you than the citizens of a presumed “enemy” country, say, like Iran. If you earn a good living, certainly if you own a business and have assets, your fellow Americans are the ones who actually present the clear and present danger. The average American (about 50% of them now) pays no income tax. Even if he’s not actually a direct or indirect employee of the government, he’s a net recipient of its largesse, which is to say your wealth, through Social Security and other welfare programs.

Over the years, I’ve found I have much more in common with people of my own social or economic station or occupation in France, Argentina, or Hong Kong, than with an American union worker in Detroit or a resident of the LA barrios. I suspect many of you would agree with that observation. What’s actually important in relationships is shared values, principles, interests, and philosophy. Geographical proximity, and a common nationality, is meaningless—no more than an accident of birth. I have much more loyalty to a friend in the Congo—although we’re different colors, have different cultures, different native languages, and different life experiences—than I do to the Americans who live down the highway in the trailer park. I see the world the same way my Congolese friend does; he’s an asset to my life. I’m necessarily at odds with many of “my fellow Americans”; they’re an active and growing liability.

Some might read this and find a disturbing lack of loyalty to the state. It sounds seditious. Professional jingoists like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, or almost anyone around the Washington Beltway go white with rage when they hear talk like this. The fact is that loyalty to a state, just because you happen to have been born in its bailiwick, is simply stupid.

As far as I can tell, there are only two federal crimes specified in the US Constitution: counterfeiting and treason. That’s a far cry from today’s world, where almost every real and imagined crime has been federalized, underscoring that the whole document is a meaningless dead letter, little more than a historical artifact. Even so, that also confirms that the Constitution was quite imperfect, even in its original form. Counterfeiting is simple fraud. Why should it be singled out especially as a crime? (Okay, that opens up a whole new can of worms… but not one I’ll go into here.) Treason is usually defined as an attempt to overthrow a government or withdraw loyalty from a sovereign. A rather odd proviso to have when the framers of the Constitution had done just that only a few years before, one would think.

The way I see it, Thomas Paine had it right when he said: “My country is wherever liberty lives.”

But where does liberty live today? Actually, it no longer has a home. It’s become a true refugee since America, which was an excellent idea that grew roots in a country of that name, degenerated into the United States. Which is just another unfortunate nation-state. And it’s on the slippery slope.

 

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57 Comments
MMinLamesa
MMinLamesa
August 6, 2017 6:43 am

Well actually I have more in common with the guy living in the trailer park then anyone in the Congo and further, I’d rather the fellow in the Congo remain there. Now trying to get the EBT cards to read error(so to speak), well that’s going to be tough. We acclimatized a large portion of our population to believe they’re entitled to be supported and when/if that support is withdrawn, they’re not going to be very happy.

Now as far as say Texas becoming it’s own…what? It’s own what, country, kingdom, community of small towns? All well and good but as Doug points out there is always someone pissing in the punch bowl and these days that guy pissing has access to nukes. Besides, what about Austin? Or just large sections of Houston? Are we going to divvy up areas block by block? Ain’t gonna work.

Doug’s scenario is just as unlikely as a successful United Nations although his observations on the Constitution are spot on. We’re so far off our Constitutional rails that as far as I can determine, we ain’t ever getting back on them.

Ouirphuqd
Ouirphuqd
August 6, 2017 7:39 am

So much for the nation state, “huh”! How does the world state make you want to jump for joy? 50% of America pay no income taxes, that’s the whole problem, if you have no skin in the game, you don’t belong in the game, until that changes dystopia will be the norm!

CCRider
CCRider
  Ouirphuqd
August 6, 2017 8:26 am

You’ve stumbled onto the truth. Those of us who ‘pay no taxes’ want to go our own way. We’re sick and tired of your ‘game’ that has a ruling class at the top and you compliant tax slaves at the bottom.

SECESSION!

Ouirphuqd
Ouirphuqd
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 8:32 am

You pay no taxes? You are the problem, secede at your own peril!

CCRider
CCRider
  Ouirphuqd
August 6, 2017 8:43 am

Read any book by Rothbard and get back to me.

Ouirphuqd
Ouirphuqd
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 9:27 am

I have, he is wrong!

CCRider
CCRider
  Ouirphuqd
August 6, 2017 11:11 am

Brilliant analysis. No wonder you celebrate tax slavery.

allan
allan
  Ouirphuqd
August 7, 2017 5:00 pm

Please explain how Rothbard is wrong.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 9:14 am

Wish you would go your own way and stop making your living off of the taxes I pay on my productive work.

And I imagine you’ll quickly starve to death when you do, so do it now and get it over.

We don’t need you and would be better off without you, can you say the same about your need of us?

CCRider
CCRider
  Anonymous
August 6, 2017 11:26 am

Look you idiots, this nation-when it was America-not the u. s. paid fucking ZERO income taxes for the 1st 140 years. Yet we still had the best infrastructure, schools, universities, standard of living etc in the world. For 50 years beyond that the vast majority of Americans still paid fucking ZERO income taxes. You don’t get a productive, vibrant and prosperous society by STEALING money from tax slaves. You get it from the unfettered interaction of FREE people. Go find some other site to voice your bullshit state worship. This is a libertarian-free market site. Get fucking lost.

SmallerGovNow
SmallerGovNow
August 6, 2017 8:42 am

While I agree with Doug on many issues, this one is total BUNK…

“humans branched from the chimpanzees about 3 million years ago”… Utter f’ing nonsense!

A. R. Wasem
A. R. Wasem
  SmallerGovNow
August 6, 2017 12:32 pm

How about “branched from primates at some undetermined point in prehistory”?

kokoda - the most deplorable
kokoda - the most deplorable
August 6, 2017 10:26 am

Referring to Nation States, Doug states: “….the institution itself is hopelessly flawed….”.
So what.
Tell me what past form of governance wasn’t hopelessly flawed.
Tell me what future form of governance that you envision won’t be flawed.
Nation States are OK – there will be a BIG push-back against the sub-humans from Africa.

norman franklin
norman franklin
August 6, 2017 10:49 am

Good comments from MM, CC, and Koko. The U.S. stands as the best example of a nation state. Most of the flaws are the fault of the human condition. We all have it to one degree or another I know my condition is terminal ‘I have a disease of the heart for which the only cure is gold.’

As for the comments about not paying taxes go phuq yourself. Some of us have decide to withdraw consent, Decline to state, resist much and obey little. Just because someone pays no federal tax doesn’t mean they have no skin in the game. Ordering ones affairs to minimize cost of living and the need to play on the hamster wheel is the only option. After the tax rape I received most of my adult life I have decided to vote the only way I know how against taxation without representation.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  norman franklin
August 6, 2017 1:57 pm

Norman – so long as those that pay no taxes get no govt bennies, I am fine with that.

CC – are you in any way on the govt teat? What about you, norman? No SNAP, SS, Medicare or caid? Etc?

If you are clear of the teat, congratulations and well done. If not, not so much.

CCRider
CCRider
  Llpoh
August 6, 2017 2:04 pm

social security and medicare-both of which I expect to eventually go bust or pay back in worthless dollars. And if you think that disqualifying of my promoting freedom and voluntary interaction then you are a simpleton.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 2:10 pm

Well, then, cc – you are a parasite. Of course they will go bust if folks suck the teat but pay no taxes.

You suck the teat, you use the infrastructure, etc., and you call taxes theft, yet pay none. Hmm.

There is a word for that. Let me think, let me think. Oh, now I remember. Hypocrite.

You are happy to suck, suck, suck. But you don’t wanna pay taxes because it is theft!

Boy, who is the simpleton.

I would cut all welfare, and let you parasites starve. Because I am tired of being the host.

Want to withdraw from the system, then withdraw. But not you – you just want to suckle.

CCRider
CCRider
  Llpoh
August 6, 2017 2:51 pm

Like I said a simpleton. Leaving aside all the many hundreds of thousands stolen from me over the years in taxes and the fact that any money I (what? donate?) to the gov’t won’t go to retirement benefits (that I paid into for over 50 years) but instead to support corrupt politicians; a military that gets rewarded for destroying defenseless countries and not having won a war in 70 years; brutal, apartheid, immoral foreign regimes like Israel and Saudi Arabia and the thieving bastards in the fed and on wall street. BTW, the inflation that will cause the retirement systems (market wide) to bust have absolutely nothing to do with assholes happily paying loot to the gov’t. NOTHING.

Now strap the yoke back on and tote that load like the mule that you are.

PS The gov’t doesn’t give a shit what you’d cut. It answers only to itself and it’s masters.

Ouirphuqd
Ouirphuqd
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 4:20 pm

To me, you are the simpleton, all of the answers for what may have been, this is the here and now. Suck it up, you get government bennies, give them up and then you’ll make some sense!

llpoh
llpoh
  CCRider
August 6, 2017 4:39 pm

Actually, cc, you moron, 70% of any money you donate goes to parasites like yourself. How is it you do not know that? It is esy enough to cal up a budget and look up the figures. But no, morons like you make shit up.

After welfare, where does the money go? Well, that would be the military.

And your comment re inflation is the height of ignorance. If anything, inflation will extend the time pensions can be paid. The value will fall, of course, but inflation is the only way that the govt can pay down, or hold constant, the debt levels. They need to inflate faster than the interest paid.

I knew the old chestnut “but paid in!” would come out. You parasites are all alike. ï paid my dollar, and deserve a million back, dammit!”

You are a hypocrite teat suckler. Wear it with pride. You are not alone.

By the way, you are obviously a loser, too. Otherwise you would have a few assets accumulated that you would be living on and paying tax on. I love it when losers flap their gums about how tax is theft, then go and grab welfare with both hands.

CCRider
CCRider
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 4:46 pm

I have no more time for you house Negros. You think paying tribute to a corrupt system will end well then plow forward head down. As for me I will continue to aid my community however I can while thwarting this evil state with all my ability to do so.

norman franklin
norman franklin
  Llpoh
August 6, 2017 2:17 pm

Lipoh, The wife and I don’t get jack shit from any .Gov B.S. Being in our early fifties we probably won’t see any of our ‘Self employment’ tax we paid for decades. We don’t have any health ‘insurance’ as it is unaffordable if we want to have money to spend on medical expenses.

We won’t be able to continue to live this life if we live into our 80s unless some investments do better than we expect. I personally don’t want to be that old. I just want to stick around long enough to make sure our kids have made it and I want to see the end of this shit show and the look on all the useless eaters faces when the well runs dry.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  norman franklin
August 6, 2017 2:22 pm

norman – so far so good. By the way, all the self- employment tax you paid was spent, and then some. It was not a bank account. They did not set it aside. It was meant as insurance, and set up as such. It was not a retirment plan. And hence why it is doomed.

Th blating of some that “I paid in, I deserve it!” Ignores that fact, and the fact that paying in $100k or whatever does not justify the taking out, at the expense of the young, $700k or whatever.

Veryone neds to take care of themselves.

Cc- you listening? Take care of your damn self, and quit suckling.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  norman franklin
August 6, 2017 2:24 pm

By the way, living into your 80s or 90s is not so bad if your health is ok. I have a relative that is 106 and still smart as a whip and semi-independent.

Kw
Kw
  Llpoh
August 6, 2017 4:24 pm

Lipoh
You yourself are living on the government teat, you just haven’t thought it through. We are as you know, 20 trillion dollars in debt and you are not going to pay that back, instead leaving it to your children and grandchildren. How is that any different may I ask?????

llpoh
llpoh
  Kw
August 6, 2017 4:32 pm

kw – because unlike most, I have paid far more than I will eve get out. I have paid into the 8 figures personally, and if my biz is counted I would be approaching 9 figures of total tax paid.

I get nothing but some infrastructure from the govt. in return.

And re leaving debt to the young – there is no one on this sight that has made the point that it is a disgrace to leave debt to the next generations. No one. It is a abomination. We need to eliminate welfare and all its parasites need to fend for themselves (cc – that means you). That is the ONLY way out of the debt, or complete collapse.

Kw
Kw
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 5:03 pm

That infrastructure you speak of was bought with government dollars which were “borrowed” and will never be repaid. How many employees do you have on food stamps or government assistance, insurance or otherwise? THAT is being on the government teat as you say. I am an old man who has been around and you are blowing in the wind.

By the way, to balance the budget, all you would have to do is reform the medical industry, or at least enforce the laws that are already on the books. The second alternative is to quit spending a trillion dollars a year the the frigging military. Welfare has little to do with all this. This system we have will finally collapse to be replaced with something, hopefully better.

norman franklin
norman franklin
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 5:35 pm

Lipoh, Agreed that it is disgraceful to leave all this debt to the next generation. Since I wasn’t asked and since I had no say in it I repudiate this so called ‘national debt.’ I know they can come with guns and kill me and take whatever they want. BFD. I recently stopped living in fear.

I have taught our kids that they don’t owe any of this. Anyone under 30 is only obligated to pay debts they have personally contracted and agreed too. I have taught them not to feel guilty about mine or their grandparents ss or any other so called obligation that will over burden them. If they feel like doing something on their own fine, if not it is what we would call an unwarrantable jurisdiction.

The so called social contract is fantasy, since fraud vitiates any contract said ‘social contract’ is void. It is not my kids or anyone else’s kids responsibility to continue to float this fraudulent ponzi scheme.

Short of epic collapse, or Jubilee by the owners, the only thing that will put an end to this abomination is the young (minis, Zs) standing together and telling the .gov to piss off.

llpoh
llpoh
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 6:01 pm

KW – you are out of your mind. The deficit is around $1 trillion per year, more or less. Reforming medicine will not balance that shit. It would help, but it will not balance it. Total – and I mean total – US govt medical expenditure is less than that. What, you think medical expenditure can be taken down to zero with reform? Unless by reform you mean eliminated? Which would be fine by me.

You may be old, but you know zilch about my business. I would not know what my employees get re govt bennies. That has nothing to do with me, despite your bullshit implications. I do not get benefits from that. But generally, given I pay highish wages, my employees would not be receiving bennies unless they have a very large family.

Also, your bullshit military spending figure is bullshit, too. What, you just make this shit up as you go along? The actual figure is approx. $600 billion per year. Oops, you only missed it by $400 billion.

And just how much of that $600 billion can be cut? I would say that maybe $200 billion could be cut, and should be cut. The US needs a military, and a very high tech one at that.

For an old guy, you have not much of a clue. Mybe you need to review your meds.

Searcher After Truth
Searcher After Truth
August 6, 2017 1:51 pm

All of your comments are based in emotion. Why not go to the source and get the facts?
Doug’s ideas aren’t completely new. He is echoing the ideas of Rees-Mogg and Davidson in their book “The Sovereign Individual”.
On another note; If you don’t like the way that the US government is trampling on the Constitution, why don’t you find out why and how they are doing it? And while you are at it find out about “domicile” and what that means. Or you could remain ignorant, and go on making inane comments on blogs.
See: noconstitutionforyou.blogspot.com
and also read the link in that article:
sedm.org/Forms/05-MemLaw/Domicile.pdf

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
August 6, 2017 2:49 pm

If you ever watched Mexican westerns as a kid, you knew when el sheriff got the drop on the bad guys, he’d say ‘quietos’ – be still.

My Honduran buddy jokingly referred to the US as Los United Estates Quietos – The United (E)stay (E)still.

While the US still maintains military hegemony over the western hemisphere, it has allowed foreign investment in Latin America.

US investment in Latin America is quite huge and commercial influence is such that Home Depot and Walmart are common sights as are the many fast food joints there. If US culture is basically a collection of advertising jingles, brand names, and pop music that are rapidly becoming part of the Latin American experience, what is there to differentiate US and Mexican culture except racial features?

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
  EL Coyote
August 6, 2017 2:50 pm

On a side note, the projected map of Europe if all separatist movements succeed is interesting because on this side of the question, we see folks attempting to unite Europe in their mind with a supra-national white race-state.

The same folks whose grandparents cut and ran from European oppression (in the forms of war, famine, disease, religious persecution) now want to go back there to save the white leviathan, Moby Dick, from extinction.

Cheesesteak
Cheesesteak
August 6, 2017 4:57 pm

Good comments by all. The way I see it is you have two choices.

Be really rich
Be poor, or hide your assets (which is harder to do everyday)

If you happen to be in the middle (like me) you are in a really bad place. You will work all your life, get sick and your assets will be striped by the Gubermint.

We live in a 2 tier society now. The rich will have to pay for the poor if the rich would like to stay alive. It is already happening now. How much money does Walmart and the like get from SNAP and EBT? Billions.

If the rich prefer to privatize profits and socialize losses (the current system), that system is coming to a end. High time as well. The current monetary system is part and parcel to blame for this.
We are coming to the end of the road for this “thing of ours”. Have guns and preps, cause something wicked this way comes.

OH

and no gays settling down either…

BL
BL
August 6, 2017 5:16 pm

Llpoh- Are you saying that we should not collect SS after paying in our entire adult lives? Also, do we really have the option against MediCare? Within a short time, everyone will be on either Medicaid or Medicare.

Are you going to write off all the money you paid into SS?

llpoh
llpoh
  BL
August 6, 2017 6:06 pm

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. What is this “paying into it all our lives” bullshit. What part of it has been spent do you not understand? What part of it is an insurance scheme not a damn retirement plan do you not understand? What part of the fact that young people will have to pay for your ass do you not understand?

There is no fucking money. It has been spent. People cannot be putting in say $200k max, and drawing out $700k or $1 million or whatever. That is a fucking Ponzi scheme.

The money is gone. It was not a bank or savings or retirement account.

The money has already been written off. It does not exist. And it is fucking wrong to expect the young to pay for those that have not prepared to support themselves.

Time for the elderly, or their families, to support themselves or do the right thing and head off to the iceflows rather than burdening the young. And I kid you not.

llpoh
llpoh
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 6:58 pm

Glad to see the teat suckers object to having their SS cut off. These assholes are all for changing things, unless it affects them directly. Then, hell, let the young pay for it!

You fucks need to ask ïf not me, then who?” Change has to start someplace. The pain is coming. Whether you like it or not. And passing the cost of keeping you in adult diapers down to the young is immoral.

Arnold Ziffel
Arnold Ziffel
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 9:42 pm

“That is a fucking Ponzi scheme.” No it is not a Ponzi scheme since it is not voluntary and your contribution is based on coercive laws.

llpoh
llpoh
  Arnold Ziffel
August 6, 2017 11:09 pm

Arnold – people think it is an investment – “I paid in, I get money out”.

Ponzi scheme: form of fraud in which belief in the success of a non-existent enterprise is fostered by the payment of quick returns to the first investors from money invested by later investors.

Hence it is a Ponzi scheme.

But I take your very good point.

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
  BL
August 6, 2017 6:07 pm

I think LLPOH is not going to sweat the small potatoes of SS.

We’ll be lucky if SS continues as a program much longer. It may become an Affordable Pension Plan managed by your friendly Federal Government.

They have done so well with healthcare, it makes sense to expand the government’s control and management of all private and public pension plans including SS.

We all win! High Five!

BL
BL
  EL Coyote
August 6, 2017 6:54 pm

If the government can conjur up 1.6 TRILLION for Israel every year (which is not the total in truth) then they better conjur the money for senior’s SS payments. If that is not done, then every parasite, foreign and domestic, better be cut off.

llpoh
llpoh
  BL
August 6, 2017 7:15 pm

BL – all foreign aid should be wiped out. But compared to the $2.5 trillion or whatever spent on welfare, it is a drop in the bucket. All welfare should be eliminated. Foreign and domestic.

Kw
Kw
August 6, 2017 6:31 pm

lipoh
You are full of it……….. Over 10 trillion dollars have been spent on the frigging wars in the middle east just since Obummer was put in office.
On medicine, I am not talking about medicare, rather the whole damned medical profession that everyone is paying out their ass for insurance premiums and deductables. You have never paid in 8 figures on taxes, you are too frigging dumb for that.

llpoh
llpoh
  Kw
August 6, 2017 6:52 pm

kw – how could $10 trillion be spent in 8 years when the total yearly military budget is $600 billion? How is that possible? It is not, that is how. You are saying that the yearly spend is $1.25 trillion – which is complete and utter bullshit. You need to pull your fucking head out of your ass.

Above you said “By the way, to balance the budget, all you would have to do is reform the medical industry”. That is bullshit. Total, unadulterated bullshit. And now you are changing your tune, by saying that you did not mean medicare? Just how will changing medical costs balance the fucking budget?

You are the one posting total bullshit. I am calling you on facts that are undisputed. Your bullshit is bullshit. You can look up my facts anywhere. But yours are not facts – they are bullshit from some old fart with dementia too stupid to look u real facts, as that would destroy your make-believe stories.

By the way, the TOTAL cost of the Iraq war is around 2 trillion. That figure can be found almost anywhere with a quick search. And that goes back to 2003, you dumbass.

Your $10 trillion figure is fucking bullshit. It is impossible. It is insane. Pull your fucking head out of our ass and learn something.

Re my 8 figures in tax, here is the deal. I am smart, hard-working, well educated, and successful.

As opposed to you, you fucking moron.

Kw
Kw
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 7:01 pm

https://news.brown.edu/articles/2016/09/costsofwar2

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/health-expenditures.htm

lipoh…..

Just a couple of quickies to show how misinformed you are.

This conversation is over. Rather argue with a brick wall.

llpoh
llpoh
  Kw
August 6, 2017 7:11 pm

kw – you dickhead – your link from Brown U says $3. trillion. Still $6.7 trillion less than you said, and their figures go back to 2001. Not 2009 like you said above. You imbecile. Why don’t you just say “hey, llpoh, I was wrong”, instead of posting a damn link proving you were wrong, and then acting like it proved you were right. Moron. The Brown figures also include DHS costs.

The second link says medical expenses are $3 trillion a year. Tell me something I do not know.

But how about this – tell me how reducing that figure is going to balance the budget, given that only $990 billion are govt expenditures? Go ahead, Einstein, tell me how that works. After all, that was your fucking claim.

Man, you are truly stupid.

BL
BL
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 7:06 pm

Llpoh-The Donald says we spent 6 TRILLION on ME wars during the campaign.

llpoh
llpoh
  BL
August 6, 2017 7:13 pm

BL – now I am convinced. Again, total military expenditure is $600 billion a year. Only a fraction of that goes into Iraq.

No sources anywhere, except the Donald, would say such a thing.

llpoh
llpoh
August 6, 2017 6:55 pm

KW – by the way, you fucking dipshit, here is a chart showing war costs since 2002:

[imgcomment image?w=560[/img]

$10 trillion my fat ass. Jesus Christ, morons like kw should not be allowed to post.

Anonymous
Anonymous
August 6, 2017 7:51 pm

Apparently you can’t read anything but headlines. Your foul mouth needs a dirty sock

llpoh
llpoh
  Anonymous
August 6, 2017 7:54 pm

Oh yeah, anon? Please feel free to correct any of my facts, you dumb cunt. And how about name yourself so as we can identify you whenever you shout your mouth off.

And I imagine you know about dirty socks.

BL
BL
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 7:57 pm

The fuknuts are out today Llpoh.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  llpoh
August 6, 2017 11:40 pm

Lipoh..
A direct quote from the above referenced link which you apparently are not capable of reading

“Total U.S. spending on national security related to the post-9/11 war on terror has reached $3.6 trillion, and interest on funds borrowed to pay those bills could climb to $7.9 trillion by 2053.”

I do believe that comes to the number >10 when added together for total cost.

A google search will confirm this is you have that much ambition.

NOW GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU DUMB SHIT

And goodby to this fucked up site.

EL Coyote
EL Coyote
  Anonymous
August 7, 2017 12:03 am

Damn, Now I’ll never know who Anonymous is. At times Anonymous has been irritating and other times engaging, posting Poppy vids. I’ll never know what TBP lost and that will vex me for some time.

llpoh
llpoh
  EL Coyote
August 7, 2017 12:19 am

Another one will drop by soon enough for you to torment, EC.

The world is full of people too stupid to pour piss out of a boot. Anon aka KW is but one of many millions.

BL
BL
  EL Coyote
August 7, 2017 12:20 am

Dang EC, anon didn’t give us much of a chance. Llpoh was on his best behavior today IMO.

Anon would not make it through a heated shit fest.

llpoh
llpoh
  Anonymous
August 7, 2017 12:17 am

So, anonymous, you moron, you count money not spent as money spent? You retarded motherfucker. How stupid is that? Man, you have reached new heights of stupid.

And you assume all the money is borrowed? Again, how fucking stupid is THAT! Given only around 1/4 of govt money spent is borrowed.

Good riddance. Last thing we need are morons around here.

A. R. Wasem
A. R. Wasem
August 7, 2017 12:38 pm

Re the Soc. Sec. “debate” – Everyone seems to be ignoring the effects of growth and compounding on the funds that were paid into Soc. Sec. by each individual, PLUS THE MATCHING EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTIONS (or the double contributions by the self-employed), if they would have been privately invested by the individuals in question. Taking this into consideration it is highly unlikely that most retired individuals are receiving, over their lifetimes, anything “extra” or in the nature of a “bonus” from the fedgov. Those who do are probably more than balanced by those who actually receive “less”.
W/regard to military spending both overall and in the deranged “War on Terror” let’s just agree that it’s out of control and has already placed the govt. in an untenable financial situation.