I wonder which is worse…greed or envy.
We’ve all heard the argument about greed being good because it spurs innovation through compensation. Maybe you could offer a different argument since this one eventually leads to winner take all imo. As proof I offer the increasing spread between the rich and everyone else.
NEITHER are a problem UNTIL GOVERNMENT INTERVENES on behalf of someone to further their agenda.
An individual, a company, a charitable organization, or whatever, can, in a FREE MARKET (free of ALL government influence and intervention) ONLY get bigger, richer, etc. by means of pleasing others with their product or service so a to generate an continuing or increasing stream of VOLUNTARILY exchanged monies. By being restricted to only VOLUNTARY exchange, the consumer ALWAYS retains the power to limit the size and profits of the company or the wealth of the individual.
The minute the government steps in, this all falls to hell.
“As proof I offer the increasing spread between the rich and everyone else.” – if you are NOT aware of how the government regulatory apparatus, the government-protected Federal Reserve, and the government theft and distribution mechanism are directly responsibly for the enrichment of the 0.1% at the expense of the 99.9%, then there is NOT enough room in this post to explain that all. Tens of thousands of great books have been written on EVERY ASPECT of that crony-capitalist dynamic, to cover it all thoroughly. A whole lot of them are available for free reading at the Ludwig von Mises Institute website.
Greed and envy are simply aspects of the human condition generated by the limited nature of resources, food, shelter, etc. They will ALWAYS exist, will always be a minor problem at the individual level. They ONLY become a societal/global problem when the power and violence inherent in government become part of the dynamic.
Isn’t envy just a greed variant, or aspect?
Greed is good, Gordon Gekko, movie line. How (a doer does) is what makes greed what it is, instead of ambition, progress, right action, etc.
A nocturnal lizard (gecko) rationalizing sociopathy might rip off fortunes, but it’ll never be fit for stuffing a fortune cookie. Stuffing the oval office, otoh, is presidential pimento par.
From Dictionary.com
Greed:
1. excessive or rapacious desire, especially for wealth or possessions.
Envy:
1. a feeling of discontent or covetousness with regard to another’s advantages, success, possessions, etc.
Envy specifically points to the possessions, success, etc. of another. It doesn’t require that anything illegal or such MUST happen, but as it is about possessions, etc. that belong to someone else, the implication is far greater for such improper actions.
Greed on the other hand does not have any other target than the item itself. It does not negate the possibility that acquiring such things could happen through perfectly legal means of voluntary exchange, etc.
Beware the man o’ one book, esp if that book’s the dictionary.
All word symbols are metaphorical, analogical, similean…& if they ain’t, you just might be a simian-too-literal. Or a redneck. Or something. ☺
Besides, the definitions flip-flop-squirm all over the place, over time. I’m partial to the original definition of “nice,” think of it every time I see or hear the word.
Gordon greed is good Gekko didn’t take a spin thru prison for not coveting, then stealing, the wealth, possessions, success of others. Rationalistas pull shite like this then tarpaper it over with dictionaries & encyclopedias: “zero sum game.” Nice.
HOW he, or Madoff, or Weinstein, or so-shoal’d insecurity pitchers&catchers, or•or•or satisfied all the envious greed sloshing around in them is what broke the law. Color of law’s a different, nice, subject.
Can’t you just say, “I think greed is worse”?
No. Nor did I. But you can, if you want.
Rank order the hows…not the how it turned outs.
“All word symbols are metaphorical, analogical, similean…& if they ain’t, you just might be a simian-too-literal. Or a redneck. Or something. “☺
dear senior senile,
on behalf of all the many rednecks on this site i demand an apology–we don’t all fit into the categories that your $2 words represent,just most of us,and we don’t like being lumped together–
post an apology or lawyer up–
Dear Tampast in a teacup, the Jeff Foxworthy riff team prolly has lawyers enuff to cover all ruffled feathers, even red ones.
I got nothing against rednecks per se. Not even the red-blooded ones that needed, apparently, to donate some of it, when I lived across the bay, St. Pete. Or in Savannah. Or Charleston. Ororor other southron terroirs & their varietals that felt the need for speedily squeezed juicing. But RN’s are everywhere, the world over, not just Dixie. It’s an invasive species & I juiced plenty red grapes of all colors north of the Mason-Dixon.
See Thoreau’s review, then drop the charges (unless you need to make a donation, too ☻):
you’re off the hook,nobody’ll take it on contingency–
you’re right,rednecks are everywhere–if archie had been in the south he would have been called one–i’ve met plenty of mexies and blacks who would also qualify–
i forget
I think you are correct in that envy is a derivative of greed. If that be true, I think we can say that greed is the worse.
Envy, greed, ain’t nuthin’ without color o’ law accelerant. That’s what locks in the arson. I can handle any\all envious-greedy individuals. Clump those fuckers together into a nationstate tho, monopoly o’ force, banality o’ evil, sir-yes-sir order followers – that’s a much tougher gig.
I don’t know if I can on board with you on color – o – law angle. I think you have the societal problems with or without color – o – law. Maybe you mean the ability to tax? If no ability to tax (at least my property), my property can not be taken from me. Thus making it easier to be free of greed and envy, no?
Color of law are the magic words.
My neighbors get together, however many, show up at my door & tell me they’ve decided I will do “x”.
First, I laugh.
Then, if I can’t run ‘em off, they’re fertilizer. Color o’ shit. Or they may make fertilizer of me. But they won’t be taxing me. Because there ain’t ever going to be enough of ‘em to get that done.
The ties that bind banal color o’ shit into official•magical color o’ law also make the turds infinite (for all practical purposes). When the surround is one giant toilet, how to get to the flush handle? You can’t. No matter how much fertilizing you do, it’s you who’s going to be flushed.
Self-defense is law. Color of law is legality, just rules dreamed up to benefit whoever dreamed ‘em (at your expense). & color o’ law says it’s illegal to defend oneself. That’s all the Oxbow zombies need – those magic words — to keep ‘em coming until you’re dead. They can mistake after mistake; you can only make one. For them, failure upon failure is requited. For you, one failure & it’s requiem time.
greed is good, too much greed causes problems…. its just that simple
In Bible Murder always comes after ENVY.Both are deadly sins .Not sure which is worse than the other.
Greed seems to me the desire for something. That does not seem so bad.
Envy seems to be animosity levied against someone else who has something. That seems bad.
The pic yesterday where the man says how about I keep what I earn and you keep what you earn seems most appropriate. If a “greedy” person has earned what he or she has, what is the problem? Why should there exist any obligation for them to share? It is theirs. They made it, and they should be able to keep it, if that is their wish. It is when others, especially en masse, decide to take it from the productive, due to envy, sloth, etc., that the problems occur.
Let’s face it – there is zero wrong with income inequality. Make it, keep it. Simple. It keeps being raised because of mass envy “It is not fair he has so much, me so little!” What is inherently unfair about that? The only way it is unfair is if the wealth was made illegally, or via collusive means, etc., that are not available to everyone.
I see nothing especially wrong with greed, and even find it hard to define it. Envy is another matter entirely. That entails wanting to take something from someone else, or animosity towards them for their success. That is most destructive, especially in a system where the majority can vote to strip others of their goods.
Would it be fair to say greed wants to own everything and envy wants to take everything?
Do monopolies earn or control?
Should the government have left Rockefeller and Standard Oil be? What about all the Trusts that were broken up? Can greed lead to tyranny? Can greed lead to royalty and subjects?
Uncompetitive wannabes, envious, got that anti-rockefeller color of law onto the books. Just wasn’t fair ol rock was better at the biz than they were. But who’d a thunk: ol’ rock took the punches, went the distance, & his progeny kicked Apollo Greed’s ass anyway – by becoming even better, greedier, law colorists themselves.
imho envy is worse than greed because as long as the greedy person does not use coercion to get what he wants he hurts nobody but himself–
the envious will rally others around him and eventually try to take things from the person he is envious of–
back to greed–greed is not usually good and is not the same as having a desire for something–
Envy really is the heart of leftist ideology. Deep down they KNOW that not everyone is equal. Their envy of what others have, accomplish or even who they are is what drives them to tear down & slander the successful and to equalize the misery.
To envy that someone was born with natural gifts–be it athletic, music talent, financial acumen, inventiveness, good looks or intelligence– is to live a life full of hate and darkness of spirit.
Ok, makes sense. Now what’s greed at the heart of?
Greed is almost a self-poison. It is the inability to ever be content, to have enough— a never ending desire for just a little more ( often with illegal or unethical means to achieve the “more”.
If there are those who have quoted, “Gratitude ( or satisfaction) is the key to happiness”, then those afflicted with greed can never be truly happy.
Nice. An attitude of gratitude.
darkness
whitey comes in all colors:
One of my favorite movies…I have the movie poster framed and in my barn.
I could really use a barn. ☺
Yep, great movie. How is it that the American Indian gets no favor during this war waged for minorities or those who have been victimized?
“The injuns may not be as pussified as the others.” That may just be the reason.
And progressives say we’re all the same. Bwahahabababa
Why is greed listed as one of the 7 deadly sins?
I’m focusing on greed because I already know envy is bad and I also know that greed has more support.
To help collect the tithe? & what’s that? God(father) told me to tell you…now pay my way. Or else. Like mafioso extortionists. Pay, or burn. Maybe a horsehead in yer bed hint.
Freedom (from markets) of religion\s tithes are tax-free, too, via color o’ law. Good cop, bad cop, tax-free, tax-eater…both cannibals.
I like your thoughts. Don’t change.
Easy question. Because in order to have a functioning society, you also need compassion. Politics is just a negotiation between life’s winners and losers. How well will the losers live?
Politics is the means by which winners and losers ARE CHOSEN by those who control the politicians. The less government you have, the more likely the wealth will remain spread across more people rather than be concentrated in the hands of the friends of the government.
Wouldn’t you say that, ultimately, banks are the controllers?
Couldn’t we say that the way wall street is acting is similar to banking or the federal reserve in that it’s a money printing mechanism?
Was Jefferson right?
“If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”
The ONLY reason any of them hold the monopoly position on ANYTHING is BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT. Legal tender LAWS dictate the use of the Federal Reserve Note as our currency (despite quite clear pronouncements regarding gold and silver in our Constitution). ALL of Wall Street is governed by the Securities and Exchange Commission, and there is NO REAL competition allowed to these folks. Try selling stock in a business WITHOUT following the government’s rules/laws and see what happens. And ONLY the Treasury actually PRINTS money. What the Fed does is allow the fraudulent practice of fractional reserve banking to create money out of thin air as does their simple creation of “dollars” out of thin air. Again, EVERY ONE of these mechanism is nothing short of fraud and theft that is protected from prosecution (or competition) by the force and violence inherent in the federal government and its power. And to be fair, though banks have certainly been allowed to issue currency over the centuries, it is generally the mechanism of bank runs (or the threat of bank runs) that has kept them far more in check than our current situation in which GOVERNMENT “insurance” organizations like the FDIC (which has barely enough money in its “fund” to cover the collapse of even one mid-sized bank) along with other government actions simply cover for the crimes of the bankers on the backs of savers and taxpayers at large. Recently the feds passed legislation that will also allow “bail-ins” here in the US (meaning the banks will simply be able to STEAL your money if THEY fuck up and lose all of their’s). This is the grossest abuse of government power. But of course Jefferson was correct, the bankers cannot be trusted with the issuance of money as every “created” bill ultimately devalues all the other bills in circulation. Just another reason why “sound” money like gold and silver is specifically called out in the Constitution. In a truly free market, gold and silver (or similar “sound” monetary means) would be selected in the marketplace. But free market mechanisms, as I said before, are the very things that control/temper the greed/envy of others from running rampant. Government on the other hand, exploits those weaknesses in order to purchase votes/campaign donations, etc.
Should get plenty of upvotes.
I say wall street is a money printing enterprise like the fed is because the fed/ppt aids and abets it.
Wip,
Of course everything Jefferson said and Jackson did and righteously boasted of on his death bed and what you have said (Wip) about the banksters (and myself for 15 years) and what Mr. Liberty just said is 100% correct…
But, the 1913 Creature from Jekyll Island and Woodrow Wilson’s incredible Benedict Arnold betrayal that he so lamented on his death bed…along with Congress’ 105 years of bribed co-conspiracy is lost on (lets say 9o%) of idiot Americas, because 1% are in on the robbery and the 9% who grasp it’s evil are drowned out by the deafening roar of the sheeple baaaing and the thundering stampede of the lemmings running over the digital cliff.
I have sat across from bright, intelligent, formally educated (of course degrees as far as wisdom means nothing) people and careful explained how the FED works and came into being, the history of the other two American Central Bank scams, what is going on now internationally…and who the BIS, IMF, Plunge Protection Team are…it means nothing to them as their eyes glaze over.
To paraphrase my favorite character on Cool Hand Luke: “What we have here is a failure to educate.”
But that failure was intentional. That is for another thread.
So here we are facing the biggest “Everything Bubble” implosion in the history of the world…and I don’t think there is anything anyone can do to stop it.
We are here because of the Banksters 105 years of insatiable “greed”…and their “lust” for power and control.
“Envy” is just a tool they use with the useful idiots that help them stay in greater good bullshit power.
I’m not quite sure what you mean by a certain military, but your first 3 are dead on.
(de)Fault’s in selves, individual selves, not stars, or star-chambers.
“Education” is posited by people who otherwise recognize equality is fallacious. Some are educable. Most are just trainable.
Those damn bells, thru 12th (de)grade(ation) – Dante’s levels + 3, just to be safe (is it safe?” – Marathon Man) – pure Pavlov.
Think it through, WIP. The principal goal of an organized society is to spread the means to acquire what people need so as not to have destitutes throughout the population. I’ve always thought the best way to do it is through effort. But ultimately, without that there are no rich or poor. Forget all the nonsense people are spouting here. It have to start somewhere. There has to be a mechanism for that to happen. You couldn’t even rise to the level of banana republics if there were no place for banana republics to get money from in the first place. Somebody has to have the ability to buy goods and services for there to be an economy in the first place.
I get it. It’s just so fraudulent and will end up being a means to an end for the controllers, no?
No. What I’m saying is, in any card game you have to have a dealer, or there’s no game. Your enemy is not government or big business, necessarily. It’s too much power concentrated into anything
So, it seems to me the 4, let’s call them, the “Too Powerful” are monopolistic corporations, government overreachers, the federal reserve and a certain military.
To that end, yes you are correct. MUCH of that “created” money flows directly to Wall Street and Wall Street banks. The Dow didn’t get to 25,000+ on its own.
Yeah, well, gov’s not an alien that came from space & squatted atop the humanimals. The only way there will be less gov is if there is less people.
Be fruitful & multiply…most of that fruit is itty bitty (I gots to have & control the titty) governors, martinets, freaked out control freaks. Pogo’s enemy is in the mirror.
Government has grown FAR FASTER than the population. Sorry, there is NO equating the two. This is a mental disorder that needs to be fixed – the belief that we require government at all, or certainly anywhere near this much. Thankfully their hourly failures are sending a very clear message to everyone that relying on government for ANYTHING is not only unsafe, but generally far more costly than relying on a free market of choices (any or all of which we can choose NOT to patronize).
Peter principle promotes dopes to their topped out level of incompetence. Then it trickles down. Gov is people. People is gov. & then there’s the pricks wielding the govs. Those are people, too. That’s the Peterbilt heard driving round the world.
You don’t require it. I don’t require it. A relative few others don’t require it. Those exceptions don’t generalize. Or scale. Never have, never will. The ‘mental disorder’ is a feature, not a bug.
Politics, nationstate level, is color of law designation of “winners & losers” – parasites & hosts.
“Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.” – Ambrose Bierce
One might be greedy for water if one was waterless for a day or two in the desert. Would one be envious of a fellow traveler who had water and would not share it, or had it and was many miles away?
The meaning of greed carries with it a sense of desperation where the goal is far more important than the means of achieving it. The inherent problem for a greedy person is the diminished ability to focus on the work for being overwhelmingly focused on the goal. He then loses enjoyment of the work and is willing to take shortcuts to achieve the goal which means he will sacrifice society, friendships, family, and anything else in his endeavors.
Obviously, greedy people lose their lives, though they may achieve wealth and fame, neither of which brings them to being able appreciate society, friendships, society, and much of anything else.
The envious person is a poison to himself as well as to society. Miserable leftists are a fine example. Envy is a personal failure. Instead of believing oneself to be capable of achieving what is desired, one is ready to tear someone else down or to find ways of achieving equality through force.
Terrific question, Wip. I don’t understand why this post didn’t get to 100.
Since it’s a moral question you ask, I will answer from a Biblical perspective. Surprised that no one has yet done likewise. I’ll keep it as short as possible.
——
First, greed. The Bible has PLENTY to say about greed, in both Testaments … usually bad, very bad. Jesus especially told several parables condemning greed in the strongest possible terms. Generally speaking, greed leads the greedy to an eternity of hellfire. So, one would think greed is the worse sin … no contest. Then again, maybe not …
If we were to conclude that The Decalogue (10 commandments) is God’s list of “the really really bad shit you shouldn’t do” …. then you’ll see envy makes the cut;
“You shall not covet … anything that belongs to your neighbor”
Coveting (envy) according to God is simply the desire to have what someone else has …. which in some ways can resemble greed … yet, God does not deem greed worthy enough to include in The Ten Commandments. Of course, this begs the question, why?
Well, I hate to go all Gordon Gekko here, I really do … but greed is not always destructive. Yes, it can be a good thing. I’m defining greed as “desiring to have more of something”.
Let’s say you believe rough times are coming, and you want to prepare for it. You look in your basement pantry and see you have food for one week. That won’t do … you want more of it! That’s “good” greed.
While Jesus does give a parable about the rich man who stores up wealth and is satisfied with his prepping efforts …. Jesus’ condemnation is NOT that the rich man prepped, but because the rich man did not prep enough … for he neglected the most important preparation; that of his soul. The absolute fact of the matter is that both Testaments are very consistent that when God warns his people about an impending danger, he expects them to show faith by acting on his warning and preparing for it!
Again, greed is just the desire to have more. It depends on HOW that desire is ACTED upon, which determines if greed is beneficial or detrimental.
——–
Now, briefly on to envy.
There is no such thing as “good” envy … anywhere, ever in the Bible.
When envy is acted upon, it ALWAYS leads to very bad consequences, even murder.
“They covet fields and seize them, and houses, and take them. They defraud a man of his home, a fellowman of his inheritance” —— Micah 2:2
But, that’s not the worst of it. Here is what makes envy far more dangerous than greed; —- envy does not have to be acted upon to be harmful.
Isn’t that terrifying? Envy, by its intrinsic nature produces resentment, hostility, enmity, and according to the verse from Micah above, the loss of life, liberty and prosperity…. even when it lies dormant and not yet acted upon.
Let me add that this is the main reason I so deeply LOATHE to my deepest being commercialism, commercials, and the advertising profession and the god they worship, Bernays and his minions.
Advertising basically revolves around generating in you greed, envy, and fear.
You see that gorgeous $60,000 Lexus, or whatever, over and over and over until you start thinking to yourself — “Jeez, I sure would like that.” —- and once that door cracks open, the advertising industry has succeeded …. and God forbid if your neighbor or friend winds up with that Lexus!!! Envy will creep in, and ruin your life. Believe me.
The LAST thing these advertising fuckers EVER want you to become is more Christian in your outlook on life. Like this;
“Now there is great gain in godliness with CONTENTMENT, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world. But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be CONTENT.”
Of course, being content with what you have would probably crash this economy. Just imagine millions of people not spending billions on SHIT they don’t need. So, maybe I can excuse these fuckers for spreading their poison? NAH!!!!!
good post stucky–
would it be accurate to say that greed is obsessive desire for possessions?
Yes – the same way black holes greedily desire possessions.
In people, the hole is a wound that can never be sewn up or healed…phantom limb pain that can never be ameliorated for very long. Emotional eating.
Remember Barnes? “Take the pain.” Eat it. & “The only thing that can kill Barnes is Barnes.” That’s how Barnes loses the pain – by becoming a phantom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfXDehzrJeY
Don’t know if it’s true, but I have always associated greed with more than what you need. People who go to a buffet and take so much that they don’t have room to eat it all- that sort of thing.
The simple desire for things to satisfy our needs isn’t greed, the desire to have more than that is.
“I have always associated greed with more than what you need.”
That’s a great definition from Webster’s Dictionary. Really. But, Christians have a better source than Webster’s.
I did not want to get this deep into it. So, briefly …
The Greek word is pleonexia. The well known NT Greek scholar William Barclay describes pleonexia as an “accursed love of having” ….. no qualification on having “more” than needed. He labels it an aggressive vice that operates in three spheres of life:
————
1)– “In the material sphere it involves “grasping at money and goods, regardless of honor and honesty.”
2)– “In the ethical sphere it is “the ambition which tramples on others to gain something which is not properly meant for it.”
3)– “In the moral sphere, it is “the unbridled lust which takes its pleasure where it has no right to take.”
That works too.
‘A pleonexia on your house’ would be a great curse.
Hardscabble and Stucky et al,
Thank you for your contributions. Really great stuff. Here are some more of my thoughts….
“Again, greed is just the desire to have more. It depends on HOW that desire is ACTED upon, which
determines if greed is beneficial or detrimental.”
Would that include me owning all the apple trees and you have none or access to them?
I don’t see how preparing for bad times is greedy unless you are taking more than you need.
Wow, I can’t believe I said that. In the above stated case (preparing for bad times) I believe
it can be seen as greedy if those around you are suffering/dying because you took it all.
I’m coming to the conclusion that “all things in moderation” is a path best taken.
There is a huge grey area between good greed and bad greed imo.
“There is no such thing as “good” envy … anywhere, ever in the Bible.”
Is envy a derivative of greed?
Another poster asked if it is greedy for a thirsty man to covete another man’s bottle
of water. Is it?
Is a monopoly greedy or envious? If I want it all, isn’t that being envious of those who
have some?
If I am either one, I would most likely be guilty of envy. I am envious of those who have found peace.
Monopoly is…fear: we can’t compete – & we are envious; we don’t want to compete – we are greedy; so make competition illegal (color o’ law – without which there ain’t no monopoly…of…force…which is redundant).
Monopoly epitomizes conservatism – synonym fear, & loathing (of change) – & frozen status quo, & not in “my” backyard, & the belief that control will take care of the fear & that there will be no unintended blowback consequences. (Political liberals are just as conservative as “conservatives.” Control freaks against fearful driving – & every one of ‘em is drunk.)
Despite all the blowback.
Nucleus of every religion is fear. Secular, supernatural, same coin.