Subtitled
Common Sense Money Management While on the Road to Bankster Divestment Precious Metal’s Hedging – Wealth Preservation While Working Towards Homestead Self-Sufficiency & Prepper Independence
A couple of comments on TBP Admin’s recent “WHAT KEEPS THEM UP AT NIGHT” prompted me to reflect upon my own experience using my 401K money in ways many people fear. When Fleabaggs mentioned suffering the loss of his wife’s 401(k) in tax penalty for doing so, as well as additional loss from money manager mismanagement, I decided to go ahead and try to explain my own contrarian actions regarding our retirement savings, the reasons behind those decisions and what happened.
Like many Americans, we made most of the 401(k) money we cashed out in our major retirement savings vehicle in stocks from 1988 to 1999. When I told my wife in 1999 I wanted to cash out a month before my 50th birthday, also quitting my comfortable corporate job and giving up 20% of my salary going into a gamble startup as their top consultant, necessitating her return to full time work when she had been working part time as a nanny, well she was WTF stunned!
She asked me if I was having a midlife crisis. While I told her yes, it was really more of an epiphany then than a crisis. I smiled and asked if she’d rather I bought a sports car and acquired a girlfriend or could we just do all of the above? Eventually, after much serious discussion she agreed to everything! She is a wonderful wife and trusts my judgment.
During the eleven years that 401(k) was being built in a roaring bull market I had also become a political, economic junkie. I had just started learning how the changes in our monetary system beginning in 1913, followed by the seizing of gold by FDR in 1934, with the post-war industrial boom fueling a consumption economy coming to a Tricky Dicky end in 1971 when the country abandoned gold completely. I feared that we as a country were heading spiritually, culturally and politically into the crapper. I was right.
[Editorial insert: After the War, a post-war industrial boom and population boom fueled a consumption-based economy and the masses began moving from the rural areas to the urban centers. Every community seemed to have a thriving manufacturing base and many urban centers began to sprawl outward into formerly rural areas. This pushed agriculture toward mechanized, corporate farming and the big corporations took over pharmaceuticals and, well. If you trace it all back to this era Mark refers to, from 1913 through 1971, you can almost see the deterioration of our cultural standards reflected in the shiny surface of that gold policy revision. So, I think that it all really started coming to an end in 1971, though we didn’t realize it then.
I refer to all sorts of strange issues that were just about to come into national focus when Richard M. Nixon was desperate about winning his second term as president in 1971. The Pentagon Papers had been released in a 6-3 SCOTUS decision in favor of the New York Times against Nixon, a standing President. This led to Watergate, the very first open scandal surrounding a sitting president. I think the publication of the Pentagon Papers signaled to the so-called fourth estate of government that the Press wanted a piece of the action.
Did you know the reason the Press was protected by the First Amendment was because the Founders hoped an informed and educated citizenry could be achieved with a free press. A free press that would hold the government accountable by informing the people about what government was doing with their tax monies. But, at some point the press became all about the money too, didn’t it? Especially when the laws were changed to allow foreign ownership of American Media giants, but I digress. Back to point.
It just seemed that until Nixon came along, the New York Times had managed to ignore the blatant lies about Kennedy’s assassination and all the blatant hypocrisy of LBJ building a Great Society and laughing about how he’d just bought the black vote for Democrats forever. So, the old grey lady always seemed a bit trashy to me, since she decided to throw off objectivity like an unwanted shawl. Inserted by the editor, who learned about this at the Journalism School at OU. End of Editorial Comment]
Back to TBP Mark’s fine essay.
Another major factor was I had become a serious Born Again Christian in 1993 at the age of 43. The experience completely changed my lifestyle and my life, how I viewed success and money. I spent a great deal of time in prayer about the tremendous life altering changes we were about to make.
Here is the conventional wisdom which we ignored for the most part followed by what my wife and I did:
By John Wasik Forbes
In a nutshell, the article explains all the “better” ways to access money instead of using your 401K monies.
“Let’s say you have $100,000 sitting in a 401(k) and you’re under 60. If you cash out the account, your “net” will only be $75,000. That is if you’re in the 15% federal tax bracket. You just handed the government $25,000 of your retirement funds. Is it worth it to access the cash? In many ways, it’s more expensive than a payday loan.”
Our Contrarian Snapshot: It turns out that our 401K monies almost matched the Forbes example exactly, leaving us with a net of $75K after paying taxes and penalties. Below I’ve listed, in order, what we did with the $75,000 to turn our retirement decision into a long term plan instead of a bad decision.
- Started Tithing.
- Started living wisely by a written monthly budget tracking every single dollar.
- Paid off a stupid credit card bill at a ridiculous interest rate and two car loans. Stopped pouring money into the depreciating asset car money hole. I still drive beaters.
- Put $10,000 in a cash emergency fund to avoid using credit cards for emergencies.
- Started making extra monthly principle mortgage payments. Once you see how quickly that principle drops compared to just making the scheduled payments, it will become an obsession to send in extra every month, even if just $50 or a $100 bucks.
- We put the remainder (about 50%) into Precious Metals. At the time, 1999, I saw PMs as greatest potential long term macro move of my life. I was right. I believe there is great potential and safety today in PMs and we are still stacking.
As Fleabaggs pointed out about what happened to his wife’s 401(k), we managed to miss the 2001 Dot Com bursting bubble. Many lost 50% of their 401(k)’s. We had already pulled ours and taken the hit, so to speak, but with the changes we made great strides toward becoming financially sound and independent.
We continued to contribute to company 401K plans, taking full advantage of company matched funds. By 2008/9 we had built two new 401(k)’s up but we had 100% of both in Money Market Funds well before the Housing bubble burst. The reason for this was we had grown risk averse to the volatility of the stock market. There were many warnings about the Housing Bubble and we just trusted our instincts. I would like to point out that it is very similar to all the warnings now about the impending Everything Bubble. I listened then and I’m listening now.
Our Snapshot on two 401(k) loans: As the years went on and with the exposure of the internet and countless historical books I became more and more convinced the Republic was as Bork wrote: “Slouching Towards Gomorrah.”
When Obama was elected in 2008, I suspected his “Radical Transformation” would tilt the slouch in such a way as to cause a Cloward-Piven collapse. By the time of his reelection in 2012, I had discovered Strauss and Howe’s Theory of the Fourth Turning and my sense of urgency led to us selling our suburban home, taking out two 401(k) loans and building our farm. We borrowed $100,000 from ourselves over five years at 4% interest we paid ourselves. We also had two critical green light supports, solid cash flow and the budget said we could handle the payments.
We found 14 beautiful rural acres with a pond and an old home needing a remodel, but in a few years we transitioned from the cul-de-sac to a modest working farm, homestead and prepper compound.
Here is the conventional wisdom and what we did:
4 Reasons You Should Never Take a 401(k) Loan
By Christy Bieber for The Motley Fool @CNNMoney
https://money.cnn.com/2017/08/14/retirement/401k-loan/index.html\
If you can’t pay it back you will get hit with a big tax bill
By staying focused and on plan, we have paid back 85% of the two 401K loans we took from ourselves, paying a cool 4% interest to ourselves not the banksters.
- You’ll be stuck in your job or forced to pay back the loan early
The best thing my wife and I did was to have a plan and stick with it. I opened my own company in 2005 and my wife is with her 4th employer since 99. We have worked hard, been successful and never looked back. We maintain a strong cash flow and have been extremely careful about handling the loan payments and the money we have at our disposal.
- You’ll miss out on the earnings your investments would have generated
As previously noted we missed out on the 401(k) massive stock market losses of the Dot Com Bubble in 2001 and Housing Bubble 2008/9. I know people my age (68) who never got over these two hits. We are savers and stackers in spite of the FED’s attempts to herd us into their Wall Street pen. Yes we have missed most (not all) of the recent stock bull run, but I am fine with that as we are in a good place. I am not greedy and like to sleep at night.
- Taxes and Fees will Cost you
Yes, we have paid back most of the loans with after tax dollars and there are some fees but we paid the interest to ourselves, not the banksters. These loans went for a new well, barn, chicken coop, garden fencing, greenhouse, combo root/tornado shelter/bunker etc. and have helped build our farm and our self-sufficiency. I did not think the Everything Bubble was going to last this long. Minor taxes and fees were nothing to us compared to self-sufficiency.
We did go back into stocks with about a third of one 401(k) in 2012 but got out in 2014. I decided to risk some and it did pay and hindsight being 20-20 we could have made more if we had stayed in, but I just wanted out of their rigged game. I have always gotten out of the Stock market too early…but I have never been in it too long.
If you qualify, you could open a Self-directed IRA. Since I opened a one person S-Corp consulting company in 2005, I was also able to open a Self-Directed IRA. That gives a person tremendous unique control for saving and investing. This is the company I used and have been extremely happy with.
Of course everyone’s age, income, budget and situation is unique and different. We decided to make the moves we made and we stuck with them because like Gloriously Deplorable Paul said about Admin’s article: “WHAT KEEPS THEM UP AT NIGHT”
“I get it, I believe it, I fear it.”
I hope this helps someone take a step toward financial freedom or is useful to someone just interested in seeing someone else’s journey and story. Thanks for asking!
I am delighted to see this here, Mark. I hope Fleabaggs joins the discussion and shares a bit about his own bad experience with withdrawing 401K monies. I think this could be an educational thread for discussion.
I will, at some point, share my own experience withdrawing my 401K holdings (and penalty paying) and my husband’s borrowing from his 401K to buy this land. But, for now, I am looking forward to seeing others advice and comments.
Simply Dazzling! I wish I had 100,000 neighbors like you.
Come on down to flyover country!
is the 14 acre farm more a just keep you fed deal or does it also or in future become a business beyond personal needs.No matter what better to have what you owe in hand then just a collection of 1’s&0’s.Yes,could still be stolen but folks have to actually show up for that,not just a keyboard tap,actions like that will have consequences.
I think Mark aims for sustainability mainly, but he and his wife both seem industrious so am betting he will be producing something to barter with neighbors!
James,
Owning and living on a modest farm has been a life long dream. I actually tried this in the 80’s (84 to 87) in my 30’s and failed. The book Five Acres and Independence was my goal then.
Now, I successfully have 14 acres and independence. If as first you don’t succeed try, try again!
Maggie is right I have no business plans but we are set up to be completely self sufficient, not off grid…yet…and barter would be a successful tactic depending on what happens.
I have a small but steady internet business, occasionally consult (only local I’m done with airports and hotels) and write for a magazine.
Consequences for being uninvited here would be severe and life changing for somebody.
This was our inspiration. I bought our Great Pyr/Komodore mix from a dairy farm north of Tulsa. This man was her neighbor… his Very Small Farm made me want one of my own.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/857468.A_Very_Small_Farm
Nobody writes about it better then Hard Scrabble Farmer…there is also this book I love:
We bought just about everything Joel wrote when we got this idea in mind. I actually read them. LOL… Nick is the worker. I’m the reader.
http://www.folksthisaintnormal.com/
Mark that tis awesome.I am looking at over a 100 acres with a off grid house/also 3 car garage with space above and first need is figuring how to power a wood shop as I get a bit longer in the tooth and move from carpentry to perhaps furniture work(need to work on those skills awhile!)or something of that nature.I then want indoor hydro to have veggies year round in New England,along with start a small outdoor plot/work towards chickens and perhaps after gaining the knowledge a few goats for milking and brush clearing/oh,and some bees at some point.I will build slow and try and find someone who also might be interested so any critters always have a extra set of eyes something goes wrong with me.A lot tis pasture style land and would probably just let any interested hay it for themselves as I get to know folks better in region.
Biggest goal is though more juice,would like to stay off grid but do not want a genny excepting emergency needs.
Oh,and a walk on gun course for certain!
Good luck with farm,sounds like you have a very nice life going on.
James,
That is a good plan! 100 acres is the frigg’in Ponderosa, it sounds like a fantastic place.
I’m working on Cold Frames for winter veggies this year, got the book now its gonna be my usual trial and error.
I used railroad ties for my gun-range backstop (and other rural uses) 12.99 each at Home Depot, $50 delivery charge.
Good luck with your Homestead its a sweaty rich lifestyle.!
You have a plan, James. That is the first step and it is a solid one.
Always be suspicious of conventional wisdom. I think the word “wisdom” is misleading and that’s being generous.
That’s a little gem of a comment MC. I’ve been living much of my life contrary to conventional wisdom, and have always persisted in questioning it. It can be very hard on relationships as most folks take conventional wisdom as gospel, and work hard to defend it.
Mark and Maggie..
That was quick, thank you both.
The story about my late wife being caught in the dot com collapse was my reason for asking Mark and Agnes? to post a story of how they managed to muster the courage and also persuade their families to do a Thelma and Louise with them.
My wife and I were only going steady at the time I saw the pretty obvious signs of a severe but engineered drop.
First of all it was not my money. she was a widow and her and her husband had worked all their lives to raise kids and pay rent. What money they had left was put into 401’s because thats what was being promoted by the press and Govt. by way of the tax code. I call it being herded in to be sheared. They were just honest ordinary people.
My own life was very austere since I had that conversion Mark spoke of. I had dedicated my new life to exposing the federal governments complete corruption to show god I was genuinely sorry for the evil I had engaged in on behalf of our lovely leaders. This lead eventually to following the money. I found I was adept at it and made quite a lot of money for others by knowing the many ways the markets are rigged. With this information at hand I begged my future wife to please have her broker move her sideways into other instruments since she believed the lie that PM’s don’t earn interest. (Staying even with inflation is hidden interest). Her nice young broker told her I was nuts.
This was money she hoped to pass on to her kids by the way. She watched in horror as 51% of her 401 was vaporised. After the dust settled her broker, without her actually knowing the score, skimmed another 20% by trading losers into and out of her account. A Quasi legal scam at the time. I manned up and told her if she wanted to marry me she had to let me get as much back as I could because I refused to marry a bottle of Prozac. The thought must have worked.
Let me explain right here that contrary to what some peole on here say, I’m not a nice guy. I’m a relentless, tireless Prick and asshole. I paid him a personnel visit and dropped some greenmail and blackmail on him. The swindled widow story in a small town in west Texas might ruin him. I demanded that he move the remainder sideways into something I could manage through her in a completely different brokerage house. He would swallow any fees or other hits and be grateful. These kinds of people are not brave and he had no problem doing it.
I used this fund much like Mark did except with a lot of leverage. I knew where the next bubbles would be (PM’s and Real estate) and litterally bought swampland on the west Florida coast. Improved lots with everything ready including paved roads were going for 3,000 each. I bought 12, using her small PM’s account as collatteral. We began receiving offers about a year later from local realtors. I sent them a form letter stating they were available for 20,000 each with them assuming all fees and charges. 5 months later we received a certified check and the legal forms to sign which would activate the check. A few more of my own small ponzi schemes later we had recovered most of it and it was in a joint fund for her kids. I don’t recommend this for you but we had nothing to lose by the time I took it over. She passed away in 2009 being grateful she could leave something to her kids.
Crazy Uncle Frankie Fleabaggs.
Thank you, Fleabaggs. There’s a LOT to think about in there. You are one clever dude. Swampland in Florida. LOL.
I knew an old lady in Pensacola who had an Oceanfront cottage near Mobile, Alabama she wanted to sell me for 20K in 1982. Really. It was a bit swampy, but it was near the water. I bet it sold for a fortune not long ago.
By the way, when I share my own story in a bit, I will also tell what happened when an evil estate lawyer got his hands on my Poppa Grooch’s life savings and what happened when Nick and I informed him he was about to get sued.
spoiler: he wet his pants and gave Nick control of the estate.
Maggie..
That was when everything on the east coast and also the Tampa Bay area was sold out. I heard rumors of the state highway running down west Fla. Was going to be turned into a 6lane affair. These lots had been built way back when they were doing the if you build it they will come craze and went bust. They were also sending us credit card offers of 10 to 20 grand with no interest for a year due to her Sterling credit. We took 1 for 15,000 and flipped it for a 20 right before the year was up to pay the tiny payments for the lots. It takes a little nerve to pull off but after watching 30 years of saving and eating macaroni go up in smoke she didn’t mind.
You and your wife done good. I had some really good credit ratings too and Nick and I actually did that same thing to pay off a car and a couple of credit cards at the very beginning. Man, this is bringing back some memories. The very first magazine article I EVER sold was about how I saved my coupon money and sent in rebates for cases of diapers and saved every nickel, dime and dollar out of the laundry to buy stock in a Johnson & Johnson DRIP account to save for my baby’s college fund. When we cashed out that DRIP, it was more than ten thousand dollars. My son was 9. Around the 1999/2000 time frame.
It really does take a team to do this.
My son grew up knowing that we were only staying in Oklahoma until he could get himself through college so we could quit working for a living and move to the hills to live off the fat of the land. He thought we were nuts then and probably still does. He’s here now until he starts his new double dog secret job making lots of money NOT in government contracting. I’m very proud that he avoided that temptation.
So, yes, good for your wife for coming around to the plan.
I’ve got one like that.
Just after the Financial crisis, I got an offer for a $20k 0% for 18 months offer, so I took a $15k cash advance on one card that had a max service charge of $75, then balance transferred to this new card for no fees and bought gold maple leafs and krugs. I sold what I needed to pay the card off 13 months later and still had 5 ounces left.
You’ve got to answer when opportunity knocks!
I wanted to try that with some silver when it was around 20 bucks an ounce and we bought our first silver rounds. Nick is far too conservative and, well, cheap. It is also called “risk aversion” but I think we could have pulled it off.
But, we just bought a bit and stacked it. The last we bought was at around 30, which means we are close to “even” on the silver but honestly, with lots of those lovely little bullion rounds around the place, we don’t really mind the lack of fiat profit where the silver and gold is concerned.
Especially with all the chickens, rabbits and goats Joel Salatin suggested we invest in.
Good news. We do not have to eat the little Stuckenheimer goat because the neighbors want him as a breeder. We do plan to eat Simon at our October Hootenanny. Because he’s a Bessie-raping bastard. She’s pregnant and we are finished with him.
And, along the lines of a Godsend? The neighbors have decided to get Nigerian Dwarves too and will breed their male to my nanny next spring so I will have pure Nigerian Dwarf 6% butterfat milk! I’m in the dessert cheese business!
Flea,
That’s an amazing comeback…I’m glad it had a happy monetary ending!
I know West Texas…that is where I failed with my 5 acres and independence lesson in the mid 80’s, Robert Lee outside San Angelo.
Mark..
It was a well planned in and out move with a definite time line. Greed can grad us without a firm plan and commitment to get out at a certain $figure just like you did. You said something that reminded me of J.P Morgan’s advise. Always leave a little room for the next buyer to make a little profit.
That is just good business sense. It is the deep greed of the bankers who can’t imagine why anyone needs anything they don’t get a cut of that caused this mess. Mark really does hit a real mark with his 1913 to 1971 window. And, to boot, it is somewhat notable that it is three of the four turnings, if you want to look at it through a Strauss and Howe lens.
Damn,hearing all this glad I was basically broke most of me life.I will if get the property be straight out cash and see the little town’s growth slowing,fine by me as will keep down property taxes which are low for amount of land am looking at.
As long as basics covered will be fine until the great collapse or whatever happens and hope the land if I work with it will keep me fed,am sure will keep me busy and that keeps ones body and mind alive.
While repairing furniture/perhaps as skills grow making furniture may pay bills(will work on homes till it does)feel perhaps a need to learn a skill that folks will NEED in tough times,perhaps a mini forge and get lots of scrap metal while can,and,well,just keep at it till I learn some skills.
James..
Saw sharpening. There are short books on the basics but a top shelf set of files and bevel and crimping guides is all it takes. You will be a rock star. Get a buzz saw if you don’t have one. As a woodworker you may have one. Rig a way to power it with an ox. New England has an oxen revival community I’m sure you are aware of. As a kid before chainsaws and before we got the buzz saw firewood was a big undertaking. An ox is built for logging and firewood.
James..
P.S. I learned how to weave baskets and crude cloth from common materials found in New England. Also rope twisting. Preparing clay for pottery would be useful. Plenty of novice potters but no clay renderers. Too hard.
Making goat cheese has been my long term goal. I took cheese making classes from that dairy lady north of Tulsa years ago and have all the videos and pamphlets and as soon as I get Bessie through another pregnancy and wean the kids, I’ll be in heaven.
Nick can do wood work and I’ll milk goats. Life is good.
Flea,the hand sharpening is a great idea whether I get this land or another piece,as am very anal retentive sharpening would be a good choice,have driven friends crazy when they watched me sharpen my broad heads for hunting,getting em to weigh in a grain of each other.I looked at buzz saw and though love the oxen/heavy horses and all do not have any knowledge of their up keep/care,probably better off working deal with folks who have em and knowledgeable.As for running stuff,well,crazy ideas coming to mind of Fresnel lens and steam powered engine,what could possibly go wrong?!
James..
If you can rig a small low pressure steam engine with commone iron pipe to a home made heavy flywheel to keep it spinning it won’t take much horse power. Does this 100 acres have a stream with a small drop down? An undershot wheel is not illegal because you aren’t altering the course. Lots of books on simple ones. With your wood skills it would be a cinch to make a 14′ wheel. Tremendous amount of torque for work. Make a heavy flywheel with a junk truck rim with no good tire. Burn some 4″ holes in tire and fill with pea gravel concrete, real sloppy or loose so it flows evenly. At an old farm tractor fair I saw a tiny 1 cylinder deisel engine powering a huge flywheel. You get it moving by hand then engage motor. It ran small thresher and generator for milk machine.
My husband finished all the woodwork in our home and even our Mennonite log home builder told Nick he would hire him to do finish work for his crew if he were ever building in the area again. It really is wonderful to have the time to do your own work the way you want to do it.
Right. Instead of “good enuff for gubment work” like we’ve done most of our lives.
That tis the beauty of doing it yourself,you take as much time as you have patience with to get results you want,and learn to live with unfinished things a bit to get those results at times.You change your mind years down the road can always repurpose materials ect. for changes,and the satisfaction of looking at your own work daily,just don’t look too closely or can drive yourself crazy,trust me,I know1
Thanks, James.
We have been here for almost five years and we’ve just kind of “settled” into community here. It really is true that hard work pays off. We kept to ourselves and worked hard to set up the place. Last spring, the community drove up our driveway and told us they were glad we’d moved here.
I noticed a couple other homesteaders who moved in around the same time (in the general area) did NOT stay this long, having sold or abandoned. One of the lots which sold nearby (a mile or so) got turned into what seemed might be a trailer park, but we were relieved to learn it was just a family who owned the land and wanted to put a few campers for hunting season on the plot. That is a wonderful addition to the community. A family of armed hunters coming by a few times a year.
We really love being out here in the country. Well, until we have to get to a hospital quickly. Oh, well, the Good Lord takes care of that too.
Good stuff. Enjoyed that. I once searched for the low risk, high yield, and highly liquid investment and was told it didn’t exist. It was right there all along. Still is, in fact. But they can’t see it. I like to call it common sense.
Common sense isn’t quite as common as it should be.
You,sir, are a hero.
Thanks Cleveland that was kind.
Mark… if you have a few moments, take a look at my “revision” of Peaknic’s story into third person story. I hope he comes back and answers my questions. I found his story absolutely intriguing.
Me too.!..Oops I mean me also (I’ve had enough of the me too crap)
Mark, I wanted to ask you about your very forthright statement about becoming a “born again” Christian. I admire you for your conviction and obvious confidence in your belief system to be able to say it, stand on it and move on.
Now, I do not want to badger you or inquire further into your personal belief but just wanted to post a link to this video which is related to your comment regarding the deterioration of our cultural morals. I think you might at least be familiar with this speaker and of course the entire world is watching the debacle that is the papacy in all its horrid hypocrisy. It is so sad.
My question for you is this: Are you familiar with the term Charismatic Catholic? I knew a radar tech in the USAF who claimed to be a “born-again” Catholic. Have you heard of that?
Maggie,
The only people more surprised than me that I call myself a Born Again Christian and actually live like one, are everyone who knew me through blood, marriage and friendship. They were all stunned, shocked and in complete disbelief (including my wife) at my overnight conversion on May 26th 1993 at 3:00 am…as was I…as I had lived as far from God as I could get from 21 until 43.
I’m half Irish and half Italian raised Catholic but I had never met anyone who called themselves a Charismatic Catholic or Born Again.
As far as the link, the entire ongoing seemingly never ending sickening pedophilia being committed and covered up will be answered for one day…and it would be better for those preying on children to have a millstone tied around their necks and be tossed into the ocean then what awaits them.
Thanks for the answer. I only met the one guy claiming to be charismatic Catholic, but just wondered if you were familiar.
This monstrosity ongoing at the Vatican will bring down God’s wrath at some point. I will NOT be visiting the Italians anytime soon.
Amen and amen. Such testimonies are the best things in life! Thanks for sharing especially this aspect of your amazing experiences.
A quick few words regarding tithing you may be interested to read.
Thank you for joining the discussion, gcp!
I read the twenty reasons and while I agree to a point, I will also mention that faith without works is, at best, weak.
For some of us, having a generous spirit is just part of being thankful for the blessings we’ve enjoyed. I do not tithe at present time, since we do not attend a church. However, I have in the past and will not say I won’t again. If I start attending a church regularly, I will feel compelled to “pay into the storehouse.”
I just think there are many good reasons to support a church community.
Giving to worthwhile ministries is an excellent use of resources. We just do it under grace and not the law as doing it under the law implies a curse if one fails to tithe.
Christ was made a curse for us, amen!
Galatians 3:13 KJV… “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:”
We are certainly saved unto good works ?
Ephesians 2:10 KJV… “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Have an excellent weekend!
GCP,
Tithing was a controversial point with me.
My Father left the Catholic church when I was 13 after a blistering sermon demand for increased tithing from an angry, raging Priest (he had a hair lip and always seemed pissed off at somebody for something) who berated the blue collar Edison NJ congregation for more money. He enraged my former coal miner – factory worker Father. When my *Irish Father stopped attending so did I…my poor *Italian Momma couldn’t stop both of us giving up on “Religion” because of that bully high living fool. (There is another story on why I call him high living I discovered a decade later).
Hindsight being 20-20 I believe two influential men in my life, my Father and an Uncle I was close to, confused God with a number of Priests and Nuns who really pissed them off. Long stories. I have my own Catholic school 1950’s 2nd grade Nun nightmare story. To this day I am still terrified of Penguins!!!
Tithing: I don’t owe God 10%…I OWE (((HIM))) EVERYTHING.
My reference to tithing in the article was really about my TIME and desires coming from my new HEART then it was about the almost worthless pieces of green debt instruments being digitized and shoved down our throats from the enemy. The essay was not the place to go into those details.
To be succinct: The tithing I referenced in the above essay was from my HEART not from my wallet.
*The Irish & Italian Catholic cultural pulls are similar and different but religion is religion…I have a Relationship.
“Tithing: I don’t owe God 10%…I OWE HIM EVERYTHING.”
You just made my day brother!
And Agnes joins the happy dance! Into the land, brother. We will dance into the land.
On their way to the church to get married, a young Catholic couple were involved in a fatal car accident.
Being good Catholics the young couple find themselves sitting outside the Pearly Gates waiting for St. Peter to process them into Heaven.
While waiting, they begin to wonder: Could they possibly get married in Heaven?
When St. Peter finally showed up, they asked him.
St Peter said “I don’t know. This is the first time anyone has asked. Let me go find out,” and he leaves them sitting at the Gate.
After three months, St Peter finally returns, looking somewhat bedraggled. “Yes,” he informs the couple “I can get you married in Heaven”.
“Great!” said the couple “But we were just wondering, what if things don’t work out? Could we also get a divorce in Heaven?”
“You must be bloody joking” says St. Peter, red-faced with frustration, slamming his clipboard on the ground.
“What’s wrong?” asked the frightened couple.
“OH, COME ON!” St. Peter shouted “It took me three months to find a priest up here…..Do you have any idea how long it’ll take me to find a lawyer?”
(Don’t down vote me Marsh Rabbit…if I see one I’ll know its you!)
That’s funny, I don’t care who you are, that’s funny.
Flea,
As the Love Goddess Judy Tenuta says, “It Could Happen!”
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=judy+tenuta&qpvt=judy+tenuta&view=detail&mid=CF40D04F2B929298B479CF40D04F2B929298B479&&FORM=VRDGAR
Mark..
She could be Janet Evanovich’s daughter. Used to love her books in audio. You could take her out of Jersey but you can’t take the Jersey out of Janet.
True dat.
Flea,
Oh yea man. I spent some time in Camden…but got lucky and then they shaved my head and sent me to Nam.
(Come on that made you snort)
That’s funny..
I was born on a truck farm north of fort Dix. Believe it or not it’s still there surrounded by retirement homes. We raised chickens, eggs and produce for Philly and N.Y. City. Tomatoes were sold to Cambells soup. The special flavor of Jersey Tomatoes was famous.
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/surprised-pin-girl-holds-cheeks-by-793772272?src=LnE_E91Afnvp3aEffXEnWw-1-4&drawer=open
I am not sure if that image copied but it is an image to show how shocked I am to discover Fleabaggs’ agrarian beginnings. No wonder I was so charmed by your wry humor and mistakenly invited you to the hootenanny. Thankfully, your honesty about your lack of trustworthiness saved the day and the invitation was withdrawn pronto.
You continue to surprise me, Flea.
Maggie..
It was mostly organic and natural too. It’s too hard to type on this phone or I’d say more. I’ve helped several city families do the Green Acres switch successfully. One family is still making their own cheese from skimmed Jersey milk. In fact the mother asked me if hens nursed their chicks. Of course I emphatically confirmed that they did indeed.
BTW. Nice picture.
Maggie..
It was mostly organic and natural too.
I’ve helped several city families make the Green Acres switch. The mother of one family asked me if hens nursed their chicks. Of course I emphatically confirmed that they do indeed nurse but only at night. They still make their own cheese from skimmed Jersey milk. A good Jersey on good grass makes milk so sweet and rich you can skim it and still have 2% for drinking.
Too hard to type on this phone.
Get it. Because there are probably absolutely NO lawyers in paradise. Get it?
Marsh Rabbit has a chance…some rare posts hold a spark…I have up-voted!
Me, too.
I’m not a writer, but I put most of this into my computer during a late night after too much consumption. I try to constantly improve my vocabulary, because I have a theory that it actually improves my intelligence. I think I might write about that sometime.
But I know I kinda suck at prose. When I was in school, my term papers typically had 80% of the sentences needing a citation, because why rewrite a sentence when someone else has captured what I wanted to communicate perfectly? Not that I’m claiming I actually cited them all, BTW.
It took me a long time to figure out that other people don’t think about things constantly in their heads like I do. I don’t know what their existence is like. When I’m told “It’s all in your head” I will paraphrase Fiona Apple and respond “Well, everything is in my head, ultimately”. They won’t get it.
We are all just creating a reality in our head from our functioning sensory inputs. I have come to the realization that I spend far more brain power trying to figure it out, make logical and rational connections, and do some serious self-evaluation, to boot. For instance, I know I’m an idiot and don’t know anything, really.
Anyway, I hit 50 a couple of months ago, and I just embarked on the greatest lifestyle transformation I have ever attempted, with my family in tow.
Like Stucky, I have been stuck in NJ, no, make that Northern NJ (there is a HUGE difference), since I got married to a girl from there in ‘99.
I got there just in time to freak out about Y2K. I got my half-a-cord of firewood and a couple of cases of canned foods, and I was officially a Prepper, albeit just cutting my baby teeth. But my research about Y2k got me to the website that has profoundly changed my life: dieoff.org.
There, I read about the laws of thermodynamics, entropy, Peak Oil, and the relationship between how much easy, excess energy a civilization has, and its fate. I participated in very diverse online debates about how Peak Oil (Peak EVERYTHING, actually) will impact how we will need to live, how it will shrink our worlds when “technology” will fail to provide the life-giving services our natural world has handed to us, but we squandered for short term profits for a mindless psychopathic money making corporation that provided an extra quarter percent dividend for 1 whole quarter to people who have way more money than they could ever spend in their lifetimes, anyway.
The world will eventually understand that technology cannot substitute for energy, it can only convert energy into useful work. If your civilization REQUIRES more energy than can be captured from the Sun (the source of all our energy) in the same time frame, your civilization is fucked.
So, I decided that the best plan to give my children at least a fighting chance is to get my self-sufficient homestead project going.
Mind you, I’m still working my Fortune 100 corporate jobs (4 layoffs in 6 years) and researching my ass off on mostly company time. Thankfully, I found a niche profession that allows me to work in any industry. I was able to squander several severance packages into a hundred acres that was only 3 hours away and cost less than the townhouse I owned in NJ.
I had a 5 year old small house, and the guy I bought it from was a total weirdo.
This poor shlub inherited part of a huge construction company in the Boston area. The guy is such a dweeb, the other partners quickly bought him out and so, “retires” at 37 years old. As his hobby, he decides to cobble together an overgrown property that he then spends 5 years turning into a personal nature park, complete with a road that can access 90% of the property (ditched for water drainage), another 5 miles of trails cut through the roughly 60 acres of forest, a few little ponds scattered around, and 70+ year-old wild apple trees throughout. Total wildlife preserve. He even got a license to buy pheasant and quail as chicks each spring, which he could release and have folks hunt, no license required. And the deer, they LOVE the wild apples, which results in the best venison I have ever eaten.
I could go on, but I think you can tell I have totally fallen in love with this property. Also, I looked at close to 100 farms that were for sale, and my Bergen County raised city girl was NOT going to live on some cowshit stained farm. But I digress.
Well, this guy got bored after all the work was done and decided to move to Hawaii to do the same thing again, this time with sugarcane farms that were being sold off. He left with his clothes and most of his guns. I got the house, the furniture, power tools, a couple of long guns, a JD compact tractor with 10 PTO attachments and a dream. For less than my 2 bedroom townhouse. [Sidebar: I bought this property in 2004, and sold the townhouse in NJ the exact month of the peak of the market according to Zillow in 2006, to start renting in NJ for the next 12 years. Dumped most of the gains into hard PMs and have never looked back.]
I have been struggling to keep up with it, but after 14 years of trying to line up the right circumstances, I have now fully moved my family in and they actually love it. I’m still having trouble believing that I live on it full time while still getting my corporate salary.
I know I am a very lucky person, but I also know that I believe in myself.
If you can dream it, and believe it, you can achieve it.
Now I hope for a quick end to the financial system! Debt anyone?
Good for you!
That is a wonderful story…1000+Peaknic. Good for you!
They say real estate is Location Location Location…I think its Timing Timing Timing.
I was raised in Edison, went to HS in New Brunswick (Class of 67) in the old all boy Vocational school on Easton Ave. A pre Age of Aquarius blackboard jungle.
Peak,sounds like a awesome piece of property,you want more deer browsing add a few acres of clover growth to your lands,they love the stuff.Keep eyes on the apples,a bad year and the next winter can be very sad,saw that in Vt. one winter and though out of season we culled a few that were barely alive,felt the same as shooting a rabid animal,sad yet feel doing them a favor.We first tried giving some hay/grains and they were unfortunately beyond interested,me friend made a stew with what little meat there was and we used the skins,was a tough lesson on nature that will always stay with me and haunt me a bit.
I think it is worth fleshing out into its own post. What do you think, James?
Easton as in Maryland?
No Easton Avenue in New Brunswick NJ.
Ah… for a minute I was having a deja vu all over again.
I was in a familiar place when I woke up and had a vu deja…but it was only a reoccurring dream.
I have revised and posted in a comment.
I withdrew my 401K monies in 2010, the year we purchased this land and the log home kit. Nick didn’t want to, but I was convinced the end was upon us and I was determined to not lose all that money I’d worked for and not use. (When I returned to work after my son was in elementary school, we acted as if we only had one income still… putting a shitload into IRAs and 401k and in a stash of cash that eventually paid our log home builders. I literally had almost 50,000 dollars stashed in PVC under an old broken toilet outside the little shack I lived in while the log home was being built.) I’ll get a picture here in a bit.
That is what we call the “treehouse” which adjoins the original 35 acres. When it was offered to us for 15K, it seemed steep, since the little house on stilts was a mess. However, it was an UNFINISHED mess which is much easier to fix up than a dilapidated mess. Our Mennonite builders lived in it while they built the home and we lived in it until the log home was ready to move into. We saved a hundred thousand dollars with that 15 thousand dollar purchase. We plan to extend the back to the hillside and make it a fully functional hunting lodge for rental by city slickers wanting to dispose of a thousand dollars a night to hunt deer on our land. LOL
So, back to the 401 K withdrawal…I wrote the letter to the Vanguard people and got a check within a week or so, much to my husband’s pissed off chagrin. Because, then, he had to deal with the tax issue.
I had saved a bit more than a hundred grand, having some real security background and not a little bit of skill with radar theory, operation and general bullshit that accompanies working in the military industrial complex, so if I remember correctly, we sent the IRS about twenty thousand dollars every 90 days that year to allay the huge tax hit. In the end, however, we ended up “okay” since I got laid off and stopped earning much that year.
Nick agreed it was time to do something and while he wasn’t sure just pulling the money out was the thing to have done… I’d done it. We do what we do. We managed.
Later that year, Nick took a loan from his own 401K and purchased this land for two thousand dollars an acre. It was priced a bit high for the area, but it had everything we wanted: a pond, pasture land, crop land, wooded lots, two creeks and several old home sites and campsites which we believe date to Civil War times, with the Battle of Pilot Knob very close to our little location here in Podunk.
We figured if we “lived tight” we could pay it off in five years and he could quit work and join me here when the loan was paid.
Now, while you make plans, God laughs. Nick’s parents ended up in the hospital in Ohio at the same time and that nanny state insisted they go into assisted living since there was no one to take care of them at home. It got really ugly with Nick’s brother hiring an estate lawyer once he found out how much money his parents had squirrelled away. I have told my son(s) that what we have will be divided between them period before we die… no need to be grabby. But, the same thing happened when I got my father that VA pension monies with my family. Everyone wanted their share. Sad.
What a mess that Ohio visit was. We drove all night long to Ohio to see his father, who was dying, we were told. When that sweet little man I call Poppa opened his eyes and saw us standing at the foot of his bed, a grin as big as Christmas spread over his face and by the end of the day he was planning to come to Oklahoma with us and then to Missouri. Within a couple months, we had an old man in a wheelchair living with us and learned exactly what wheelchair accessible means.
He lived in assisted living/nursing home in Oklahoma for six months, outliving his wife whose senility had progressed beyond the point of her being rescued from the brother and sister-in-law’s greedy clutches. (She had been the healthier one, physically, and had given power of attorney to her oldest son, who treated her no better than his father once he hired the estate lawyer. The nurse called Nick at home in Oklahoma telling that no one had visited his mother in days. It was horrid.)
So,when she died, we FIRED the estate lawyer gleefully and filed a complaint against him with the Ohio Bar. We’d gotten a lawyer reprimanded in Oklahoma for fraud, so we knew how to really cause a lawyer some grief.
(Just write up your complaint and send it to the state bar. Get hold of other of his clients and get their complaints too. Be professional and the bar will investigate it causing your lazy lowlife lawyer at least some uncomfortable moments, even if you don’t get a full reprimand of the asshole like we did. In Oklahoma, the lawyer commited FRAUD. In Ohio, the guy was just a bottom feeding lowlife lawyer. Nothing came of the Ohio complaint except a nasty letter from the brother saying he’d done it all in his parents’ best interest. The lawyer tucked his tail up his ass and exited once he realized Nick was the trustee in fact and the brother had no more money to steal.
At least we fight back.
Now, Poppa left us with a bit of money… probably a hundred grand. Nick’s brother ended up with half of what was left, probably a hundred grand. The estate lawyer had squandered many tens of thousands of dollars on various annuities and silly schemes to “spend them down” to get them into Medicaid or Veterans home facilities. REALLY? They saved a half million dollars you asshole and you want them in some shit hole facility that is free?
So, yes… it gets ugly when people die with money. I plan to leave nothing but this land and the boys can sell it and split it if they want. or whatever. Just don’t fight over my bones.
So, after Poppa died and my son started junior college, I moved here to start the building. I was general contractor and learned about hauling gravel and dirt and who had the best rates on bulldozers. I supervised the building of the log home and when Nick came a few years later for the final run, I was happy to let him take over and finish the home. It was a LOT to cope with but I managed until Nick could get here and take over.
I got sick a couple years ago, but all in all, we managed to get it done.
I do not regret having to pay almost a hundred thousand dollars in taxes and penalties just to be able to use my own money. You are probably losing more than that to inflation right now. At least I’m here.
And, yes, I know you hate me because I’ve done what you kind of want to do but fear. Get over it and make a plan. The banksters and the lawyers do not intend for you to get out of your trap with anything.
Maggie..
Good story. Families and money!
That last sentence is the best.
I hope Peaknic returns to flesh out his story, as well. That was a nailbiter, wasn’t it? Peaknic went for a wild ride to paradise.
Peaknic, you are a perfectly fine writer. In spite of your insistence you had consumed a bit much before writing this, I found your comments fascinating and took the liberty of doing a smidge of editing.
Your vocabulary is excellent; I see not one word out of context which is a sign of great intelligence. I hope you do write about improving your mind through vocabulary building. I would be happy to edit and revise the piece for you as I’ve done for TBP Mark. I really am a much better editor than writer.
Term papers are worthless exercises assigned by teachers who have to assign something to prove they are earning your tax dollars. A college professor once told me he did not care about citations, then he proceeded to give me an F on a paper because it contained NO Bibliography. Asshole. Anyway, I “rewrote” the paper, giving all the citations and managed a “B” but I hate hate hate term paper style of writing too. I will tell you what I did… I started citing CHILDREN’S Books in my term papers. Seriously, many of my college papers have a few books cited which might seem rather odd. They might seem ODD if the damn teachers ever actually looked. Which they don’t. Why would they? So, I’m with you on this Peaknic… all those citations mean nothing if you don’t GET it.
My son says that we people who think about things constantly need to learn how to turn it off. He and I did some meditation stuff to help because with our analytical thinking and constant nosiness about things, we can easily drive ourselves and others nuts. You have come to the same conclusion… that other people don’t think about things constantly in their heads. Like you, I don’t know what people who don’t think about things constantly do with their thoughts. Maybe they just go into “sleep” mode like the phone or computer screen.
Your comment that you know you are an idiot but are okay with that is profound. It sound kind of Aristotlish:
“The more you know, the more you know you don’t know.” Aristotle
Anyway, Peaknic hit 50 a couple of months ago, and embarked on the greatest lifestyle transformation ever attempted, with his family in tow. Like Stucky, I have been stuck in NJ, no, make that Northern NJ (there is a HUGE difference), since I got married to a girl from there in ‘99.
Peaknic’s comments about freaking out over Y2K made me laugh. When we joined the Family of Families group, there were a few Y2K preppers there who had gotten prepped early. You split half-a-cord of firewood and grabbed a couple of cases of canned foods, while we stored some fresh water and buried silver. We were all just cutting our baby teeth together in the survival business.
Peaknic, that site is worth a real review.
http://www.dieoff.org/
A wonderful repository of information including the laws of thermodynamics, entropy, Peak Oil, and the relationship between how much easy, excess energy a civilization has, and its fate. Your discussion of how you participated in very diverse online debates about how Peak Oil (Peak EVERYTHING, actually) will impact how we will need to live, how it will shrink our worlds when “technology” will fail to provide the life-giving services our natural world has handed to us and how we squandered for short term profits for a mindless psychopathic money making corporation that provided an extra quarter percent dividend for 1 whole quarter to people who have way more money than they could ever spend in their lifetimes, anyway.
[Editorial comment: Well, that was a run-on sentence worthy of a ramble that doesn’t need to be cleaned up. Sometimes the best thing an editor can do is leave it alone.]
Peaknic, I agree with you. The world will eventually understand that technology cannot substitute for energy. But that understanding will come later I think, after our soils have been destroyed by Monsanto and the water polluted by corporate thieves in bed with the congresscritters. If your civilization REQUIRES more energy than can be captured from the Sun (the source of all our energy) in the same time frame, your civilization is fucked. (Another perfect sentiment best left alone by an editor.)
Peaknic decided that the best plan to give his children at least a fighting chance is to get a self-sufficient homestead project going. Mind you, Peaknic’s still working his Fortune 100 corporate jobs (4 layoffs in 6 years) and researching his ass off on mostly company time. Thankfully, he found a niche profession that allows him to work in any industry. Peaknic used several severance packages into a hundred acres just 3 hours away from him which cost less than the townhouse he owned in NJ.
Peaknic also owned 5 year old small house, and the guy he bought it from was a total weirdo. Again, this additional story about the man who sold you the land is worth the diversion. It is really interesting.
The poor shlub inherited part of a huge construction company in the Boston area and was such a dweeb, the other partners quickly bought him out. He “retires” at 37 years old and decides to cobble together an overgrown property that he then spends 5 years turning into a personal nature park. It has a complete road that can access 90% of the property (ditched for water drainage), with another 5 miles of trails cut through the roughly 60 acres of forest, a few little ponds scattered around, and 70+ year-old wild apple trees throughout. It is a total wildlife preserve.
The dweeb even got a license to buy pheasant and quail as chicks each spring, which he could release and have folks hunt, no license required. And the deer, they LOVE the wild apples, which results in the best venison I have ever eaten.
I could go on, but I think you can tell I have totally fallen in love with this property. Also, I looked at close to 100 farms that were for sale, and my Bergen County raised city girl was NOT going to live on some cowshit stained farm. But I digress. (You know what? This editor really likes it when you digress. I’d love to hear how the Bergen County raised city girl adjusted to that lovely little plot of ground you managed to squander your severance pay to purchase.)
Peaknic, you said “this guy got bored after all the work was done and decided to move to Hawaii to do the same thing again, this time with sugarcane farms that were being sold off. He left with his clothes and most of his guns.”
Then, you tell us that YOU, Peaknic got the house, the furniture, power tools, a couple of long guns, a JD compact tractor with 10 PTO attachments and a dream. It almost sounds like you inherited it, so as your “editor” I want to help clarify for the reader. This really is a fascinating story and if you answer a couple of questions, I may post this as Peaknic’s experience with homesteading in style… or something similar. You and I did similar things, different ways. I can tell you did NOT haul tubs of water up a ladder into a house on stilts while waiting for the well-driller to trench a line to the treehouse. I did that. I do not know many women who would have done it. So, I really want to know how your Bergen County raised city girl adjusted, if she has.)
Peaknic’s land was purchased for less than his 2 bedroom townhouse in NJ. [Sidebar: Peaknic bought this property in 2004, and he sold the townhouse in NJ at the peak of the market according to Zillow in 2006. He rented a home in NJ for the next 12 years, dumping his gains into PMs and not looking back.]
Peaknic admits it was a struggle to keep it up for 14 years, but that finally, the time and circumstances were right for them to move to the property as a family. A family that ow actually LOVES it. Peaknic is still having trouble believing that he lives in Paradise full time while still getting his corporate salary.
(You are one clever dog, Peaknic. I salute you. The best I might be able to do is declare myself 100% disabled due to military service and suck up some more of WIP’s tax dollars.)
Peaknick knows he’s been lucky, but we all realize it was his ability to act on his own beliefs that allowed him to be successful with his vision. That is why I really hope you will work with me, Peaknic, to turn your story into a full post for discussion.
“If you can dream it, and believe it, you can achieve it.” By Peaknic
Final chance for Peaknic to revise.
One more final appeal to Peaknic. Your story would go well with my collection of stories about how one becomes sovereign in your own home.