Stand Up to Tyranny: How to Respond to the Evils of Our Age

Guest Post by John W. Whitehead

“The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool. If the church does not recapture its prophetic zeal, it will become an irrelevant social club without moral or spiritual authority.”—Martin Luther King Jr. (A Knock at Midnight, June 11, 1967)

In every age, we find ourselves wrestling with the question of how Jesus Christ—the itinerant preacher and revolutionary activist who died challenging the police state of his time, namely, the Roman Empire—would respond to the moral questions of our day.

For instance, would Jesus advocate, as so many evangelical Christian leaders have done in recent years, for congregants to “submit to your leaders and those in authority,” which in the American police state translates to complying, conforming, submitting, obeying orders, deferring to authority and generally doing whatever a government official tells you to do?

What would Jesus do?

Study the life and teachings of Jesus, and you may be surprised at how relevant he is to our modern age.

A radical nonconformist who challenged authority at every turn, Jesus spent his adult life speaking truth to power, challenging the status quo of his day, pushing back against the abuses of the Roman Empire, and providing a blueprint for standing up to tyranny that would be followed by those, religious and otherwise, who came after him.

Those living through this present age of government lockdowns, immunity passports, militarized police, SWAT team raids, police shootings of unarmed citizens, roadside strip searches, invasive surveillance and the like might feel as if these events are unprecedented. However, the characteristics of a police state and its reasons for being are no different today than they were in Jesus’ lifetime: control, power and money.

Much like the American Empire today, the Roman Empire of Jesus’ day was characterized by secrecy, surveillance, a widespread police presence, a citizenry treated like suspects with little recourse against the police state, perpetual wars, a military empire, martial law, and political retribution against those who dared to challenge the power of the state.

A police state extends far beyond the actions of law enforcement.  In fact, a police state “is characterized by bureaucracy, secrecy, perpetual wars, a nation of suspects, militarization, surveillance, widespread police presence, and a citizenry with little recourse against police actions.”

Indeed, the police state in which Jesus lived (and died) and its striking similarities to modern-day America are beyond troubling.

Secrecy, surveillance and rule by the elite. As the chasm between the wealthy and poor grew wider in the Roman Empire, the ruling class and the wealthy class became synonymous, while the lower classes, increasingly deprived of their political freedoms, grew disinterested in the government and easily distracted by “bread and circuses.” Much like America today, with its lack of government transparency, overt domestic surveillance, and rule by the rich, the inner workings of the Roman Empire were shrouded in secrecy, while its leaders were constantly on the watch for any potential threats to its power. The resulting state-wide surveillance was primarily carried out by the military, which acted as investigators, enforcers, torturers, policemen, executioners and jailers. Today that role is fulfilled by the NSA, the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the increasingly militarized police forces across the country.

Widespread police presence. The Roman Empire used its military forces to maintain the “peace,” thereby establishing a police state that reached into all aspects of a citizen’s life. In this way, these military officers, used to address a broad range of routine problems and conflicts, enforced the will of the state. Today SWAT teams, comprised of local police and federal agents, are employed to carry out routine search warrants for minor crimes such as marijuana possession and credit card fraud.

Citizenry with little recourse against the police state. As the Roman Empire expanded, personal freedom and independence nearly vanished, as did any real sense of local governance and national consciousness. Similarly, in America today, citizens largely feel powerless, voiceless and unrepresented in the face of a power-hungry federal government. As states and localities are brought under direct control by federal agencies and regulations, a sense of learned helplessness grips the nation.

Perpetual wars and a military empire. Much like America today with its practice of policing the world, war and an over-arching militarist ethos provided the framework for the Roman Empire, which extended from the Italian peninsula to all over Southern, Western, and Eastern Europe, extending into North Africa and Western Asia as well. In addition to significant foreign threats, wars were waged against inchoate, unstructured and socially inferior foes.

Martial law. Eventually, Rome established a permanent military dictatorship that left the citizens at the mercy of an unreachable and oppressive totalitarian regime. In the absence of resources to establish civic police forces, the Romans relied increasingly on the military to intervene in all matters of conflict or upheaval in provinces, from small-scale scuffles to large-scale revolts. Not unlike police forces today, with their martial law training drills on American soil, militarized weapons and “shoot first, ask questions later” mindset, the Roman soldier had “the exercise of lethal force at his fingertips” with the potential of wreaking havoc on normal citizens’ lives.

A nation of suspects. Just as the American Empire looks upon its citizens as suspects to be tracked, surveilled and controlled, the Roman Empire looked upon all potential insubordinates, from the common thief to a full-fledged insurrectionist, as threats to its power. The insurrectionist was seen as directly challenging the Emperor.  A “bandit,” or revolutionist, was seen as capable of overturning the empire, was always considered guilty and deserving of the most savage penalties, including capital punishment. Bandits were usually punished publicly and cruelly as a means of deterring others from challenging the power of the state.  Jesus’ execution was one such public punishment.

Acts of civil disobedience by insurrectionists. Starting with his act of civil disobedience at the Jewish temple, the site of the administrative headquarters of the Sanhedrin, the supreme Jewish council, Jesus branded himself a political revolutionary. When Jesus “with the help of his disciples, blocks the entrance to the courtyard” and forbids “anyone carrying goods for sale or trade from entering the Temple,” he committed a blatantly criminal and seditious act, an act “that undoubtedly precipitated his arrest and execution.” Because the commercial events were sponsored by the religious hierarchy, which in turn was operated by consent of the Roman government, Jesus’ attack on the money chargers and traders can be seen as an attack on Rome itself, an unmistakable declaration of political and social independence from the Roman oppression.

Military-style arrests in the dead of night. Jesus’ arrest account testifies to the fact that the Romans perceived Him as a revolutionary. Eerily similar to today’s SWAT team raids, Jesus was arrested in the middle of the night, in secret, by a large, heavily armed fleet of soldiers.  Rather than merely asking for Jesus when they came to arrest him, his pursuers collaborated beforehand with Judas. Acting as a government informant, Judas concocted a kiss as a secret identification marker, hinting that a level of deception and trickery must be used to obtain this seemingly “dangerous revolutionist’s” cooperation.

Torture and capital punishment. In Jesus’ day, religious preachers, self-proclaimed prophets and nonviolent protesters were not summarily arrested and executed. Indeed, the high priests and Roman governors normally allowed a protest, particularly a small-scale one, to run its course. However, government authorities were quick to dispose of leaders and movements that appeared to threaten the Roman Empire. The charges leveled against Jesus—that he was a threat to the stability of the nation, opposed paying Roman taxes and claimed to be the rightful King—were purely political, not religious. To the Romans, any one of these charges was enough to merit death by crucifixion, which was usually reserved for slaves, non-Romans, radicals, revolutionaries and the worst criminals.

Jesus was presented to Pontius Pilate “as a disturber of the political peace,” a leader of a rebellion, a political threat, and most gravely—a claimant to kingship, a “king of the revolutionary type.” After Jesus is formally condemned by Pilate, he is sentenced to death by crucifixion, “the Roman means of executing criminals convicted of high treason.”  The purpose of crucifixion was not so much to kill the criminal, as it was an immensely public statement intended to visually warn all those who would challenge the power of the Roman Empire. Hence, it was reserved solely for the most extreme political crimes: treason, rebellion, sedition, and banditry. After being ruthlessly whipped and mocked, Jesus was nailed to a cross.

As Professor Mark Lewis Taylor observed:

The cross within Roman politics and culture was a marker of shame, of being a criminal. If you were put to the cross, you were marked as shameful, as criminal, but especially as subversive. And there were thousands of people put to the cross. The cross was actually positioned at many crossroads, and, as New Testament scholar Paula Fredricksen has reminded us, it served as kind of a public service announcement that said, “Act like this person did, and this is how you will end up.”

Jesus—the revolutionary, the political dissident, and the nonviolent activist—lived and died in a police state. Any reflection on Jesus’ life and death within a police state must take into account several factors: Jesus spoke out strongly against such things as empires, controlling people, state violence and power politics. Jesus challenged the political and religious belief systems of his day. And worldly powers feared Jesus, not because he challenged them for control of thrones or government but because he undercut their claims of supremacy, and he dared to speak truth to power in a time when doing so could—and often did—cost a person his life.

Unfortunately, the radical Jesus, the political dissident who took aim at injustice and oppression, has been largely forgotten today, replaced by a congenial, smiling Jesus trotted out for religious holidays but otherwise rendered mute when it comes to matters of war, power and politics.

Yet for those who truly study the life and teachings of Jesus, the resounding theme is one of outright resistance to war, materialism and empire.

Ultimately, as I point out in my book Battlefield America: The War on the American People, this is the contradiction that must be resolved if the radical Jesus—the one who stood up to the Roman Empire and was crucified as a warning to others not to challenge the powers-that-be—is to be an example for our modern age.

After all, there is so much suffering and injustice in the world, and so much good that can be done by those who truly aspire to follow Jesus Christ’s example.

We must decide whether we will follow the path of least resistance—willing to turn a blind eye to what Martin Luther King Jr. referred to as the “evils of segregation and the crippling effects of discrimination, to the moral degeneracy of religious bigotry and the corroding effects of narrow sectarianism, to economic conditions that deprive men of work and food, and to the insanities of militarism and the self-defeating effects of physical violence”—or whether we will be transformed nonconformists “dedicated to justice, peace, and brotherhood.”

As King explained in a powerful sermon delivered in 1954, “This command not to conform comes … [from] Jesus Christ, the world’s most dedicated nonconformist, whose ethical nonconformity still challenges the conscience of mankind.”

Furthermore:

We need to recapture the gospel glow of the early Christians, who were nonconformists in the truest sense of the word and refused to shape their witness according to the mundane patterns of the world.  Willingly they sacrificed fame, fortune, and life itself in behalf of a cause they knew to be right.  Quantitatively small, they were qualitatively giants.  Their powerful gospel put an end to such barbaric evils as infanticide and bloody gladiatorial contests.  Finally, they captured the Roman Empire for Jesus Christ… The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists, who are dedicated to justice, peace, and brotherhood.  The trailblazers in human, academic, scientific, and religious freedom have always been nonconformists.  In any cause that concerns the progress of mankind, put your faith in the nonconformist!

…Honesty impels me to admit that transformed nonconformity, which is always costly and never altogether comfortable, may mean walking through the valley of the shadow of suffering, losing a job, or having a six-year-old daughter ask, “Daddy, why do you have to go to jail so much?”  But we are gravely mistaken to think that Christianity protects us from the pain and agony of mortal existence.  Christianity has always insisted that the cross we bear precedes the crown we wear.  To be a Christian, one must take up his cross, with all of its difficulties and agonizing and tragedy-packed content, and carry it until that very cross leaves its marks upon us and redeems us to that more excellent way that comes only through suffering.

In these days of worldwide confusion, there is a dire need for men and women who will courageously do battle for truth.  We must make a choice. Will we continue to march to the drumbeat of conformity and respectability, or will we, listening to the beat of a more distant drum, move to its echoing sounds?  Will we march only to the music of time, or will we, risking criticism and abuse, march to the soul saving music of eternity?

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74 Comments
Glock-N-Load
Glock-N-Load
March 31, 2021 6:17 pm

IMO, the churches really messed up throughout this Scamdemic. ALL of them should have refused to shut their doors. Unbelievable numbers of people would have supported them. IMO

Ken31
Ken31
  Glock-N-Load
April 1, 2021 4:02 am

I think it is what made all of us doubters stop doubting. I know it is true for me. I was on the fence of giving it another go. Closed doors made up my mind and that isn’t just justifying after the fact. I was confirmed there as an adult 25 years ago and I just happen to be here again for a while.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Glock-N-Load
April 1, 2021 12:09 pm

It is “Powerful Delusion” or “Strong Delusion.” God is allowing those that will see the chance for clarity while those that will not are shown to be lacking. 2 Thess and Rev are pretty clear in foreseeing this. JMO.

https://odysee.com/@EJOK:c/WIN_20210314_16_57_13_Pro:f

Joe Blow
Joe Blow
  Glock-N-Load
April 1, 2021 2:16 pm

Ours closed their doors and then reopened requiring the Holy rag. I have not been back. I am amazed at my now former life group. They have fallen for the whole systemic racism crap and then lined up obediently for the Holy Jab. We are now outcasts.

I am fine with it.

Time to rudder my own ship.

oldtimer505
oldtimer505
March 31, 2021 6:47 pm

Most of the churches sold their sole decades ago. A day of judgement is coming for the churches as well. Like Glock-N-Load points out, they should have said, NO to closing their doors.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  oldtimer505
March 31, 2021 11:03 pm

So they are walking barefoot?

I crack me up.

Ghost
Ghost
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 1:43 pm

I assumed he meant the fish.

Stucky
Stucky
March 31, 2021 6:54 pm

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Stucky
Stucky
March 31, 2021 6:55 pm

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Stucky
Stucky
March 31, 2021 6:58 pm

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Doctor de Vaca
Doctor de Vaca
  Stucky
March 31, 2021 9:32 pm

Now that’s funny…reminds me of The Peoples Republic of Boulder.

Ghost
Ghost
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 2:03 pm

After our big day of League Bowling (don’t mask/don’t tell) followed by a really crappy dinner at the Cape Girardeau Applebee’s where the only people were wearing masks were the poor waitstaff. The sign on the door says masks are “requested” and so everyone seemed inclined to decline.

It was not optional with us. If we hadn’t been meeting our son, we would have chosen a different location just because the service was terrible and the food was terrible.

This should be a warning to folks used to eating mass-produced restaurant fare who decide to start growing and eating “real” food. I took a few bits of the chicken at Applebee’s and said “that ain’t chicken.” I tasted my son’s sirloin and said “that ain’t sirloin.”

So, once you go “all natural” nutrition, it is almost impossible to go back.

It was a waste of $75 but, in a big way, worth it to see my son doing well and happy to mooch a meal off Mom and Dad one more time.

No masks
don’t tell
they’ll banish us
you know

I miss EC.

Anonymous
Anonymous
March 31, 2021 7:18 pm

I always listen to what people have say until they trot out good ol’ MLK.

Ken31
Ken31
  Anonymous
April 1, 2021 4:07 am

It is just amazing how much common knowledge is just complete bullshit, isn’t it?

Stucky
Stucky
March 31, 2021 10:11 pm

Disappointing .. this dearth of comments. Other than my 3 cartoons and one response, and yet another jackass who stops reading the moment he sees a One Thing he doesn’t like — there are just two responses! Pitiful.

So many here have clamored for “SOLUTIONS!!!” over the past year. And here Whitehead offers rock solid solutions from a Christian perspective and what does he get in response? Cricket. Fucken crickets.

Where are all the Christians?? HOLY fucken crickets. Shame on you, for missing an opportunity to support Whitehead’s real difference makers, and a chance to spread the Gospel. No, too many of you love to beat the drum of your Plan A … Da RATURE (which no one, really, other than a Believer gives a Rat’s Ass about).

Covid has been the House Special now for the past year. I love the secret sauce as well. But, how many times can you say basically the same goddamned remarks day after day after day? When will Covid Fatigue set in?

Stucky
Stucky
  Stucky
March 31, 2021 10:19 pm

This is a first class article explaining the historical / political / cultural similarities between Rome and America. He nails it. Give him an A+++.

He asks “What Would Jesus Do”. He does give a few examples but really doesn’t develop them. in any depth. That’s OK … his purpose was not to write a theology sermon. I give him a “B”.

I might take that up in the future — in a “Jesus vs Rome” article as I mentioned previously. Then again, it’s clear people don’t give a flying fuck about this type of thing. Poor Mr. Whitehead ….

Maybe I’ll write “Jesus vs Covid” — sure to get to 500 comments.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
March 31, 2021 10:51 pm

I think you have this wrong.

First, I agree with anon, whoever he is. Quoting a man of extreme low character such as King makes me doubt anything the author has to say.

Second, anon did not say he stopped reading. I did not either, but many times I do when I encounter something stupid in an article.

Third, the author asks how would Jesus respond to the moral questions of our day. Well, that is ignorant as far as I am concerned. It supposes, to me, that what is moral has changed. And far as I am concerned what is moral has never changed. Murder, stealing, adultery, etc are all bad, and all immoral, and have always been. Any “moral questions” today come from immoral people who want to make their immorality seem moral. They need to be exposed as what they are. The questions were long ago answered.

I had a conversation on a site, where I was quickly banned, with some youngsters. The topic was how unfair it is that employers are using their social media accounts against them when deciding whether to hire them or not. They thought pics of their drunkenness, debauchery, drug taking, sexual exploitation and promiscuity, illegal activities, etc. should not be used in the hiring decisions.

I of course pointed out that their actions have consequences, that any sane employer would prefer someone moral and of good character, that what a person does in their private lives is reflective of how they will behave in a work environment. (I also may have mentioned tattoos, blue hair, nose rings, etc. tended to give bad impressions).

They went berserk, said that the sooner people such as myself die off the better, who am I to say what is moral, that taking into account what a person does outside of work or how they look in making hiring decisions was unfair.

The point being, these fucksticks want to normalise immorality and unethical behaviour and do not believe societal common decency exists any more.

But the fact is, what was immoral when Jesus lived is immoral today. The questions have been answered. Immoral people do not like the answers and do not want their immorality and poor character to be used against them in any way.

With respect to Rome, and how it treated its citizens, I will need to do some research. I am no expert, but I had thought that Rome treated its citizens well. But not its subjects. Which are quite different things. I think he may be confusing the two. Roman citizens I believe were known to be able to walk unmolested anywhere on earth, as the penalty for moseying the might well be decimation of the community where such molestation occurred.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Llpoh
March 31, 2021 10:57 pm

Here are some quick facts about rights of Roman citizens:

Being a citizen of Rome carried legal and social advantages. Some of those advantages included:

The right to vote
The right to hold office
The right to make contracts
The right to own property
The right to have a lawful marriage
The right to have children of any such marriage become Roman citizens automatically
The right to have the legal rights of the paterfamilias of the family
The right not to pay some taxes, especially local taxes
The right to sue in court and be sued
The right to defend oneself in court
The right to have a legal trial with a judge; the right to appeal a decision
No Roman citizen could be tortured, whipped, or receive the death penalty (unless found guilty of treason)

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 3:27 am

what you describe was valid in jesus’ time- the reigns of augustus and tiberius.. and continued to more or less be the case for the next century. however by the third century, citizenship has already by various decrees and special cases, extended to more and more people, but at the same time, citizenship carried more and more burdens of taxation and various obligations, more restrictions (especially with diocletian) than privileges, and, once the burden of being a citizen was heavier than any benefits, an imperial edict in the third century ‘granted’ citizenship to everyone living within the empire’s borders!

Ken31
Ken31
  Anonymous
April 1, 2021 4:10 am

Almost like some kind of pattern or cycle.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 5:16 pm

Good list. Also, two types of citizenship, Patricians and Plebeians. When Paul the apostle revealed he was a Roman citizen by birth, the commander who was about to interrogate Paul was rightfully alarmed. No citizen was ever treated the way a non-citizen was.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Llpoh
March 31, 2021 11:02 pm

I believe he is generally mistaken re his comments about Roman citizens. He may be confused, or is misusing the term citizen for subjects. It was a significant difference in Rome, as it often is in the US – just ask those who spent time in Guantanamo.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 7:17 am

You went from having to do research on what it means to being a Roman citizen …. to quickly being able to decide Whitehead is wrong about Roman citizens.

I’m envious at how quickly you become an expert.

Nevertheless, I believe you are wrong. This is not the first time I have read about the Roman Empire during the time of Jesus. His comments are very much in line with the countless books I’ve read on the topic.

StackingStock
StackingStock
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 8:19 am

I read the whole thing Stucky, bookmarked it and I’m going to share it with my brother.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 8:49 am

Stuck – I was not without some background, and needed some refreshing. Roman citizens were elite, were relatively few in number, and had substantial rights. That was my memory, and a bit of digging seemed to suggest that was a correct memory. Jesus and the Jews, etc, were not citizens, and were subject to say decimation. There were best I can tell perhaps 4 million citizens as a maximum, but as many as 130 million subjects – which would be 30 subjects to one citizen. Estimates vary widely for both numbers.

You are being disingenuous to say that I am claiming or putting myself as an expert. I certainly a not that. I posted one set of info supporting my position. And posted my belief.

So far, you have posted nada contrary to what I have said, except to say you have read countless books. Me too, but a long, long time ago. What are Whiteheads bona fides? No idea. But I think he is overusing the term citizen, as that was a special class in Rome. Call them the top 3%. Those sorts tend to be well protected in my experience.

niebo
niebo
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 9:34 am

The apostle Paul was a Jew AND a Roman citizen. See Acts 22/23 for more and for mention of certain rights, such as due process, before being punished/beaten.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 9:56 am

“You are being disingenuous to say that I am claiming or putting myself as an expert.”

I was just being my snarky old self. Nothing personal. I know you are a learned man in these matters. Truly.

All those rights you listed are factual. Yet, I look at them as The Ideal … rights that appear on Paper … but perhaps not so literal in practice.

For example, don’t we have a Constitution which mirrors many of the same rights? But, are we free? Sure, on paper. Not so much in praxis.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  Llpoh
March 31, 2021 11:04 pm

Thank you that is exactly what I meant by my comment. Surely he could find someone of better character than plagiarizing, womanizing, MLK the communist. If you must use a black there are a whole lot better examples than the old standard MLK crap.

Ken31
Ken31
  Anonymous
April 1, 2021 4:11 am

I have a dream that one day I will eat all of the cheese on the moon is about as realistic.

TR22
TR22
  Anonymous
April 1, 2021 11:38 am

Thank you for being one of the few people I know who is aware of the man behind the message. Instead of being lauded he should have his Ph.D. stripped from him and be publicly shamed for the hypocrisy that marked his personal life. Whenever I see someone point to this man as a moral compass to be followed I want to use the insulting comeback I’ve found appropriate when being lectured by this sort of person: “I’m sorry, but what you are speaks so loudly that I can’t hear what you’re saying.” (BTW, if anyone thinks I’m saying this only because he was black, I have argued with people that Bill Clinton fits this mold as well.)

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 7:55 am

Honestly, and with all due respect, I wonder if you even read the article. Or, if you did read it, if your read it with an open mind …. and for comprehension.

Where in the hell does he talk about universal morals such as “Murder, stealing, adultery, etc “. Nowhere, that’s where.

In the second paragraph he spells out exactly the morality he is going to talk about in his article. Really, he spells it out as clear as day!

“For instance, would Jesus advocate, as so many evangelical Christian leaders have done in recent years, for congregants to “submit to your leaders and those in authority,”

There ya go! The morality in question in the entire article concerns whether Christians should SUBMIT TO THE STATE. How could you possibly misconstrue what his stated goal are with lying, stealing, etc?

He even becomes more specific ….

” …complying, conforming, submitting, obeying orders, deferring to authority and generally doing whatever a government official tells you to do?

THAT moral question is far far far from being black & white, is it not? THAT question certainly is worth exploring deeper. The correct answer to THAT question ought to spurn Christians into action against this evil government. The correct answer to THAT question could save the Republic.

That’s why I believe he wrote a fantastic piece … and why I personally was disappointed in the lack of commentary …. especially from the Christians here who, at a minimum, could have shouted “AMEN!”.

But, they remained silent.

How pertinent, then, is this quote?

comment image

.
.
[BTW … abortion, cloning, using fetal stem cells and a ton of other stuff in our technological age are moral questions which never even crossed the mind of Jesus. I hope you never fall into the trap of thinking all moral questions are black and white. They are not!]

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 9:11 am

I think they are. And I do not think I misconstrued anything. I focused on one comment. And I found it lacking.

Whether they crossed the mind of Jesus is irrelevant. The issues you raise have pretty clear answers, in my opinion, and the principles were established long ago. Abortion, cloning (of humans, not necessarily of organs, depending on source material), use of aborted fetal cells – all immoral. Naturally aborted fetal cells a different answer.

I think moral issues are mostly clear There are a few ticklish what if scenarios that can come up, say with cloning, but even then the answer is often quite easily seen. Examination of issues of morality and ethics have been around a long, long time. (I only once ever got a citation – a recognition of outstanding performance far in excess of even an A grade – it was in an ethics class, and the issue that got me the citation happened to be this very one – abortion, fetal material, use thereof.)

There are ranges of immoral in my opinion, though. Murder is worse than theft. Theft to survive is not always immoral but it can be if it kills another, etc.

Stucky
Stucky
  Llpoh
April 1, 2021 9:40 am

“The issues you raise have pretty clear answers, in my opinion, “

Exactly. Your opinion.

And, frankly, the answers are also pretty clear in my opinion. so, we agree.

But, is Whitehead writing to you and me? Or,is he writing to the masses who have no opinion,or worse, have the wrong opinion?

Again, the question of submitting to the State is a moral one that is far from settled.

The Apostle Paul adds greatly to the confusion by giving his theology which is, once again, at odds with what Jesus teaches. You know what I’m talking about ….

“Pray for kings and others in power, so we may live quiet and peaceful lives”

And …

“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities.”

Pray for the King?? Many Christians do just that. I think Paul is full of crap. So does Whitehead. And so does Jesus.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 3:03 pm

“I think Paul is full of crap. So does Whitehead. And so does Jesus.”

The above is your answer as to why the church has become powerless. The world agrees with you for the most part. Read, if you will, the first few verses of each of Paul’s 13 epistles. Jesus Christ, God in flesh (not, “itinerant preacher” as Whitehead so grossly understates – He rose from the dead after He was murdered and is alive and kicking right now!) sent Paul with a message the world did not, have not and very likely will not receive. No human ever loved or understood Jesus Christ more than the apostle Paul.

Llpoh
Llpoh
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 5:08 pm

At least we bumped this thread along some. As I have said before I rarely revisit this type stuff as I had my fill years ago.

Sic ‘em!

Eyes Wide Shut
Eyes Wide Shut
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 3:56 am

“Da RATURE (which no one, really, other than a Believer gives a Rat’s Ass about).”

Everyone else will certainly give a rat’s fanny about it if they are smart enough to figure out they missed it.

General rule. Christian’s are required by God to obey the government unless they are ordered by it to sin against God or another. For example to break any of the 10 commandments.

Where it gets all mucked up in the U.S. is our concept of extra biblical individual liberties. God doesn’t muck it up we do.

We are to obey God rather than man when the two contradict and render unto Cesar what is Cesar’s and unto God what is God’s.

Eyes Wide Shut
Eyes Wide Shut
  Eyes Wide Shut
April 1, 2021 1:07 pm

Our flesh often bristles at this.

Stucky
Stucky
  Eyes Wide Shut
April 1, 2021 2:58 pm

You believe in God.

Others do not.

Sometimes the arguments for or against just boil down to this …

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Auntie Kriest
Auntie Kriest
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 9:28 pm

Better odds and clearly presented using Pascal’s method.

m
m
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 4:16 am

Sorry Stucky, but talking about Christianity and trotting out MLK, is like talking about economics and citing some JMK crap [Keynes]… it indicates the author is not seriously willing to think/talk far outside the Overton window.

Now for this article, after reading the first lines I did a quick page search for ‘Assange’ – no hits, already tells me this article is not worth reading entirely with my full attention.
I’m not saying JA is [almost] Jesus, but certain similarities do catch one’s eye…

Stucky
Stucky
  m
April 1, 2021 7:21 am

So, you judge whether or not an article is “worth reading” based on if “Assange” is mentioned???

Holy shit … “m” really does stand for Moran.

m
m
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 9:44 am

For an article claiming to talk about the most fundamental virtues, and moral /spiritual authority in the US: yes. (And btw I’ve read two 5000+ word articles on Unz over the last two days, at some point I’ve got to become selective.)
I’d go even further: not talking about Assange in this context is a kind of subjugation to evil.

Or can you come up with a more succinct example [than Assange], of our times?

Stucky
Stucky
  m
April 1, 2021 10:39 am

Ok, fine. I’ll admit Julian is like Jesus if you admit MLK is like Jesus.

The similarities are uncanny.
.

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Ginger
Ginger
April 1, 2021 8:04 am

“In every age, we find ourselves wrestling with the question of how Jesus Christ—the itinerant preacher and revolutionary activist who died challenging the police state of his time, namely, the Roman Empire—would respond to the moral questions of our day.”

JESUS CHRIST was none of these things, HE was GOD in flesh.
HE was rejected by the Jews but still fulfilled the Law, and brought Grace to the world.

“Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.”
Romans 8:7

” For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Romans 6:23

Don’t worry about what other Christians might do, better examine yourself.

Stucky
Stucky
  Ginger
April 1, 2021 8:37 am

“Jesus Christ—the itinerant preacher and revolutionary activist …… JESUS CHRIST was none of these things, HE was GOD in flesh.”

Half right.

You elevate Jesus to Pure Divinity. He was “GOD” and only GOD. You couldn’t be more wrong. Not that I blame you for thinking this way. The nature(s) of Jesus is, and has been throughout the ages, a difficult and controversial subject.

It would be easy to understand if Jesus were fully divine but not human. Or, we could understand if Jesus were merely fully human but not divine. However, the idea that Jesus is fully divine AND fully human is a difficult one …. since we have no “point of reference”, as this condition applies to no other human being who has ever lived.

The question regarding the dual nature of Jesus has existed from the very beginning of Christianity … (see Agnosticism and all its offshoots).

Jesus was Fully Human;

— was he not born to a human mother?

— did he not experience hunger and thirst?

— did he not experience temptation?

— did he not experience pain suffering, and death?

These are not God experiences, these are human experiences. So is being a carpenter a human experience. And a preacher. And a revolutionary.

ordo ab chao
ordo ab chao
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 9:40 am

My response was going to be just upthread to a comment you made, but as I contemplated my answer, this response to Ginger was here on refresh….

“In every age, we find ourselves wrestling with the question of how Jesus Christ—the itinerant preacher and revolutionary activist who died challenging the police state of his time, namely, the Roman Empire—would respond to the moral questions of our day.”

Excellent points, for sure, but my position remains a question of who we believe Jesus Christ was. For me, He is the I AM that I AM in the flesh; the propitiation of the world to Himself, and the Atonement for the sins of fallen mankind.

[BTW … abortion, cloning, using fetal stem cells and a ton of other stuff in our technological age are moral questions which never even crossed the mind of Jesus. I hope you never fall into the trap of thinking all moral questions are black and white. They are not!]

I’ll break that down in half:

“…abortion, cloning, using fetal stem cells and a ton of other stuff in our technological age are moral questions which never even crossed the mind of Jesus.”

The Alpha and the Omega, who knows the end from the beginning….imho, these issues were foremost….and can fall easily under the first law Jesus Christ came to fulfill:

‘Thou shalt have no other Gods before me’

“I hope you never fall into the trap of thinking all moral questions are black and white. They are not!]”

Another great point, but in my way of thinking, the only ‘moral’ question was answered in the garden with a great big FAIL. How often is “self” involved in rendering decisions concerning the quest for peaceful and abundant life…..

annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—–=====

You said on another thread something like "the devil is a pussy"……..the book says he's like a roaring lion lookin for somethin' to eat…..lol

Eyes Wide Shut
Eyes Wide Shut
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 9:57 am

Very well said.
I generally have great issues with those who choose to use Jesus as an example of a revolutionary against secular governments.
Jesus primarily challenged and railed against the Jewish religious leaders of the day not secular government because Israel was founded by and given the mandate to represent Jehovah and it’s leaders were very corrupt and misrepresenting God and the people horribly.

Eyes Wide Shut
Eyes Wide Shut
  Eyes Wide Shut
April 1, 2021 10:18 am

I think today Jesus would be much more upset with the current leadership of His church than with the government.

Stucky
Stucky
  Eyes Wide Shut
April 1, 2021 10:36 am

“Very well said.”

Eyes Wide Shut gives me a compliment. Me, immediately afterwards …

comment image

Eyes Wide Shut
Eyes Wide Shut
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 10:56 am

I love The Mask

Ghost
Ghost
  Eyes Wide Shut
April 1, 2021 2:07 pm

Don’t Mask/Don’t Tell!

Ghost
Ghost
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 2:38 pm
ordo ab chao
ordo ab chao
  Ghost
April 2, 2021 1:52 am

Mornin’ Ghost…

[I clicked a link a few days back, to an admin. article titled ‘Mad World’ from Nov. 2018, and saw where a Ghost had been there back in Dec. of 2020…]

As usual, I clicked to ‘watch on youtube’ to check out your posted video. I didn’t listen to much of it (elevator music?) before thinking about the Jason A video you posted some time back. As I may have mentioned before, I stumbled on to Jason A videos a long time back, but don’t follow him. A friend of mine sends me links to one, now and again. They’re all good quality- I like the type of videos that show random news reports…..weaving a thread to the ‘signs of the times’ so to speak.

The influence of unseen kosmakrators is a given, IMHO.

[Transliteration: kosmokratór. Phonetic Spelling: (kos-mok-fat’-ore) Definition: a ruler of this world. Usage: ruler of this world, that is, of the world as asserting its independence of God; used of the angelic or demonic powers controlling the sublunary world.]

Anyway, these are the two newest (the first just a few hours ago and shows the ‘satans shoes’ line), about ten min. each:

The second one is just a couple days ago, UFO and CERN info. The photos of the CERN complex never cease to amaze me- the technological advancements of mankind, and what they are endeavoring to do:

annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <——=====

niebo
niebo
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 10:58 am

Hey Stucky . . . the clearest way that I heard it explained is thusly:

Jesus was not God; God was Jesus. Jesus was, in essence, a “theophany”, a physical manifestation of God (in its strictest definition, a theophany is a VISIBLE appearance of God.)

For other examples as they occurred in the scriptures, see also: https://www.crossway.org/articles/10-things-you-should-know-about-theophanies/

Of course, Jesus was incarnate, born of woman, the son of man (Adam), so Jesus was not merely visible but physical in every sense, as you describe, with all of its weaknesses. And by no means do I intend to open a theological can of worms on the matter but, rather, to “flesh out” the idea with another perspective.

If Jesus were God, then God was absent from Heaven for the duration of Jesus’ life. But as Jesus himself said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work,” (John 5:17) so, as entities, they are distinct, even though they are “One”.

I believe that, at the moment when Jesus exclaimed, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” is the moment when God withdrew His presence from the man . . . and is the exact moment when Jesus KNEW what life was for the rest of us: separation from God. Until then, Jesus had never known life without his connection to God the Father, and, once he experienced it, felt it, KNEW it, he gave up his spirit, according to John, after he said: “It is finished.”

What, exactly, “is finished”? The separation between mankind and God. The Holy Spirit was given AFTER Jesus’ death, not before. And it is the bridge between mankind and God, to this day.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  niebo
April 1, 2021 2:32 pm

“I believe that, at the moment when Jesus exclaimed, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” is the moment when God withdrew His presence from the man…”

I believe Christ IS God. The Word made flesh (man). That when He made that exclamation, He was quoting that which He previously wrote in Psalm 22, so that any who were truly studied in scripture (as was expected of them) would KNOW whom it was they were killing. He was just giving them more proof… and heaping more blame upon them.

Colossians 1:14-17 KJB… “In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him (that would be Jesus if we follow the pronouns correctly) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

hardscrabble farmer
hardscrabble farmer
  grace country pastor
April 1, 2021 2:54 pm

Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani.

The saddest words ever spoken.

Correct me if I am mistaken but wasn’t Psalm 22 written by David? Are you saying that Christ and David are the same person?

I admit the description in 22 is awfully prescient (verses 10-18) but it sounds like David speaking, not Christ.

And for what it’s worth I never thought of Christ standing up to tyranny but rather He showed us how to live in a way that leaves us free from it (John 15:19). In the world but not of the world.

ordo ab chao
ordo ab chao
  hardscrabble farmer
April 2, 2021 12:15 am

HSF…

I was hoping to come back thru and read what GCP had replied concerning this specific post.

My two cents: many here seem to take a humanistic view of the Bible, stuck on different writers when the inspiration/guidance throughout the Scripture was/is the Holy Ghost. Spanning a time of over a thousand years, by approx. 40 ‘hands’, with only one author.

I believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God, and the one common denominator from the beginning to the end is Jesus Christ; the revelation of God to man.

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” Luke 24: 44,45

annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—–==== the pagan prophecy for the return of the man of perdition.

The Bible was written by God.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  ordo ab chao
April 2, 2021 12:58 pm

😁

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  hardscrabble farmer
April 2, 2021 12:56 pm

“Are you saying that Christ and David are the same person?”

Hi HSF… No. Although David is a remarkable picture of Christ at times! I’m saying that all the words of the Bible are inspired of God Himself. Sometimes the words of the Father, sometimes the words of the Son, most times the words of the Spirit. God is the author of the whole Book, while man did physically put the words to paper or stone. Human penmanship, Divine authorship

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJB… “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJB… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

Thus, when Chris spoke those words from the cross, He was demonstrating who He was yet again to any who would believe. Even in His last physical breath He was telling them what they needed to hear, but that’s not what they wanted. They wanted a kingly destroyer to shape the world to the will of their flesh (still do) and that’s exactly what they are going to get.

To learn how Christ would have us live, we need to learn from the apostle He sent to us, Paul. The book of John as you quote a manner of living in the world (God didn’t choose me), describes Christ as God, having to do with the nation Israel whom He absolutely chose and how they were to live.

Key word “behold” in the scriptures below.

Matthew = Christ as King (Zech 9:9)
Mark = Christ as Servant (Zech 3:8)
Luke = Christ as Man (Zech 6:12)
John = Christ as God (Isaiah 40:9)

The quote about living in the world but not of it; these fit far better around our shoulders.

Galatians 2:20 KJB… “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

Notice, I don’t live by “my” faith, I live by His. Which is more secure?

Colossians 3:1-3 KJB… “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

I’m already there… 😊

Hope you have a great weekend!

Stucky
Stucky
  grace country pastor
April 2, 2021 1:10 pm

“Divine authorship “

God did NOT dictate the Bible to the human being who “physically put the words to paper or stone. God dictating is a Mooslim concept.

I have no clue if the author was actually “inspired”, or not. Human authorship, I say.

You say you do know. But, you have no proof …. other than faith. NTTAWWT. Divine authorship, you say.

And so it goes, never the twain shall meet.

====

No reply necessary. My work here is done.

This post languished for two days with just two comments. That is, until I took upon myself the cloak of The Prophet, chastising the people for their sin of omission. Surprisingly, it worked. I will don the Cloak again when necessary.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  Stucky
April 2, 2021 1:33 pm

The Bible makes some extraordinary claims about itself that I believe. For years I attacked it intellectually from every angle I could consider and you know what happened? It stood. I believe God wrote a book and that perfection exists in this world in the books form. Call me crazy, most do… 😜

Yes, I place my faith and trust in it. I hope someday you will come to the same conclusions as I have.

Hebrews 11:6 KJB… “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

That’s step one. Have a nice weekend! Beautiful here in Texas today!

ordo ab chao
ordo ab chao
  grace country pastor
April 3, 2021 5:24 am

Greetings, GCP….

I’m glad I came back to see if you responded. Concerning the matter of authorship, I hold a not so humble opinion.

The tapestry of time, symbolism, sacrificial practices, battles….etc, etc., all come together to describe man’s state in this world, and God’s plan for it. If those researchers/authors of the series I post on here from time to time are correct, it is simply mind blowing as to the intricacies.

Once again, I witnessed first hand the masonic control of local government, just 3 short years after I first picked up my old KJV and started reading. The ‘revelation’ of masonic influence on a national level is visible in architecture and design…..sshhhh, it’s a secret.

“Every man’s true teacher is his own higher Self, and when the life is brought under the control of reason, this higher Self is released from bondage to appetites and impulses, and becomes priest, sage and illuminator” Manly P. Hall

Self and reason…kinda what started this whole mess:

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.” Eze. 28:14

“Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.” Eze. 28:17

annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <——=====

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJTzh_nW4mg

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  ordo ab chao
April 4, 2021 2:11 pm

The world is in the grip of the occult.

Ghost
Ghost
  ordo ab chao
April 4, 2021 3:15 pm

Interesting link.

Ghost
Ghost
  niebo
April 1, 2021 2:32 pm

Some time back I got a message but have not seen followup…

Just curious, but not cat-killing kind.

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 2:14 pm

“However, the idea that Jesus is fully divine AND fully human is a difficult one …. since we have no “point of reference”, as this condition applies to no other human being who has ever lived.”

That’s the point.

Ginger
Ginger
  Stucky
April 1, 2021 5:54 pm

Not half right, all right.
Philipians 2: 6-8

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Amplified Bible puts it this way:
“Who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.”

Happy Easter

grace country pastor
grace country pastor
  Ginger
April 1, 2021 3:04 pm

Right on Ginger.

card802
card802
April 1, 2021 9:04 am

At my sisters funeral the church had every other pew closed off for social distancing, and everyone was required to wear masks, so I obviously did in the Narthex.
I sat up in a front pew with my wife, my middle sister, her husband, and my brother. We all removed our masks except for my brother who had a cold.

We had been together the last week of Jackie’s life, along with her husband and children. Hugging, ect ect.

When the priest started his part, he mentioned how wonderful it was to see all of his “Masked Catholics” and praised his flock for masking up, making a big deal of opening his arms and slowly glancing over the people.
Then looked directly at our pew, lowered his arms and fell silent. I could feel eyes burning into the back of my head while I looked directly at the priest and thought, how fucking dare you attempt to shame us, now, and in that way.

My sister Kathy and her husband attend this church so they meekly put their masks on.

I stared right into fathers eyes and in my mind I fucking dared him to say a goddamn word, when he looked down I glanced at my wife and was so proud to see her remain maskless and her eyes also burned in defiance.

How sad that this is what I mostly remember of Jackie’s funeral, the mask shaming and the mask nazi at the front door very rudely admonishing people to mask up. My other sister Joni is very religious and did talk to her to tone it down as most people there were either in grief or not church goes.

I consider myself a spiritual man but fuck the church and their interconnection with the state.

Anonymous
Anonymous
  card802
April 1, 2021 12:53 pm

It isn’t just the catholic priests. I’ve had protestant ones do the directed shame to my family at multiple funerals, one even trashtalked someone dead.
“how fucking dare you attempt to shame us, now, and in that way.”
You’re not alone.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the state directly. They just agree on what they want people to be. They want meek sheep. I think it is the nature of their religion.

Tilt
Tilt
April 1, 2021 2:02 pm

I’m reading The Book of Acts for the nteenth time, and I always imagine the incredible faith & belief the Apostles must have had, walking with Jesus, then carrying his Word. Then I see how far we’ve drifted away from that. If this is where we wanted to end up, we’ve done everything right.

Diogenese
Diogenese
April 1, 2021 3:39 pm

Of Christians had done what the government wanted it would have died out when it was made illegal in Rome 2000 years ago .

Auntie Kriest
Auntie Kriest
  Diogenese
April 1, 2021 9:35 pm

Elegantly stated, Diogenese.

Literally (figuratively?) Hitler
Literally (figuratively?) Hitler
  Diogenese
April 2, 2021 12:35 am

If the christians had done what the sanhedrin wanted they would have brought down rome and corrupted the goyim

oh wait wtf