I catch myself daydreaming, or thinking at night as I try to go to sleep “what will I do when they come for my guns”. I only wish to protect myself from the hordes of people that will rob, steal and murder when their SNAP cards no longer work, and they can’t get their direct deposit cash anymore. Hunger makes people do animalistic things, some even resort to cannibalism.
That said, our nation’s police are becoming more militarized every day. The government is giving them military equipment, and the military itself is training for “urban pacification”. What will you do when they come for your guns? When they roll up in an armored personal carrier? Do you think it will happen?
When They Come For Your Guns, You Will Turn Them Over
By Jim Karger | 08/13/12
“When they come for my gun, they will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands,” is a common refrain I often hear from the Neo-Cons when there is a threat, credible or otherwise, that the US government is going to take their firearms.
And, when I hear this crazy talk, I agree with them openly. “You are right. They will pry your gun from your cold dead hands,” which I often follow with the question, “And where will that leave you except face down in a pool of your own blood [in] the middle of the street, just another dead fool resisting the State?”
This is not a question they are comfortable with, if only because the intent of their saber-rattling was to imply they would fight to keep their weapons, and win.
Nice fantasy. It’s not happening.
If the federal government decides to disarm the public, and when the increasingly-militarized rolls down your street after a not-so-subtle request that you kindly turn over your firearms and ammunition “for the common good,” it will be nothing less than suicide by cop to do anything other than what you are told.
The militarization of US police forces is ongoing and escalating. Many cities and towns now own tanks, armed personnel carriers, even attack helicopters, and almost all are outfitted with military weapons not available to the general public.
And, it is not just your hometown cops who are getting new boy-toys. The military itself is buying up weaponry not just for use in the current or next scheduled war, but to deal with the likes of you, citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience.
Also ignored (as if it didn’t even exist) is the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 which generally bars the military from law enforcement activities within the United States.
According to Public Intelligence:
“…for the last two years, the President’s Budget Submissions for the Department of Defense have included purchases of a significant amount of combat equipment, including armored vehicles, helicopters and even artillery, under an obscure section of the FY2008 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for the purposes of ‘homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities.’ Items purchased under the section include combat vehicles, tanks, helicopters, artillery, mortar systems, missiles, small arms and communications equipment. Justifications for the budget items indicate that many of the purchases are part of routine resupply and maintenance, yet in each case the procurement is cited as being ‘necessary for use by the active and reserve components of the Armed Forces for homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities’ under section 1815 of the FY 2008 NDAA.”
And, they are not just arming cops and weekend warriors for domestic purposes. Active duty Marines are now being trained for law enforcement operations all over the world (of which the US remains a part) specifically to deal with civil uprisings, and the US government knows that civil uprisings are coming to a town near you just as soon as the fantasy of a healing economy is shattered, the US dollar fails, and unemployment goes to 30%+ in real numbers.
And, to you tough-talking Neo-Cons with your AR-15 rifles and a few thousand rounds of ammo, here is the reality: they will take your guns, and no, all your Second Amendment bluster aside, you are not going to do anything about it. You are not going to take on a platoon of Marines with state-of-the-art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters unless you choose to die that day — for nothing. You will either be in the country or out, and if you are in, you will stay in and you will comply.
That is your choice… for the moment.
Regards,
Jim Karger
for The Daily Reckoning
Read more: When They Come For Your Guns, You Will Turn Them Over http://dailyreckoning.com/when-they-come-for-your-guns-you-will-turn-them-over/#ixzz2GYHVqjBn
AWD says:
a little more hardware coming you way soon:
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30th December 2012 at 11:53 am
AWD says:
“the last stage of what I’m going to call “Late, Degenerate Statism.”
The State is always, and has always, been an unworkable delusion. The great empires of history have all gone to ashes in service of precisely that point. Not one has survived the burden of its own aspirations. Each succumbs, in its own good time, to inexorable decay.
Often times, the final stages of Late, Degenerate Statism involve wanton acts of desperation, where broke and broken States try everything to hold onto and exercise brute power over those it affects to serve. We are talking here about capital controls, increased and burdensome regulation, censorship, surveillance, a tendency toward power centralization, consolidation of crony-corporate interests and, ultimately, police militarization or, The Police State.
Protesters, in addition to voters, need to be careful what they wish for…lest they get it, as the great H.L. Menken once said, “good and hard.”
Obama voters and the FSA want more government…
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30th December 2012 at 12:02 pm
AWD says:
I feel safer, don’t you?
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30th December 2012 at 12:12 pm
sangell says:
Fortunately, the armed forces don’t do domestic law enforcement. That said, I’m sure Mayor Bloomberg and Andrew Cuomo can count on the police chiefs of the NYPD or New York State troopers to do what they are told. I’m not so sure about smaller police forces though.
Here in Florida and in much of the country county sheriffs are elected. City and County governments are elected everywhere and police budgets are a matter of local control. I just don’t see the Sheriff of Sarasota or Manatee Counties, e.g. who are both conservative Republicans, going out of their way to enforce any Federal gun laws. The will simply claim they do not have the resources or that is not their responsibility and they have other higher priority law enforcement tasks to do. Of course, if the Federal government sends BATF and FBI into the area to do the work they can’t interfere but they don’t have to assist.
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30th December 2012 at 12:12 pm
underfire says:
At some point, the US is going to be forced to live within it’s means, and probably sooner than we want. The debt spigot has already been turned off and the days of the printing press is inherently numbered.
Going with high odds,resulting fiscal austerity will lead to social upheaval. Social upheaval will lead to some sort of martial law. Will martial law necessitate disarming everyone? Don’t think that that question isn’t being seriously debated in private rooms is DC.
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30th December 2012 at 12:16 pm
timothy von Fuelling Straus says:
NO, I WILL NOT–I WILL REVOLT.
Patrick Henry said it best, “Give me Liberty of Give me Death!”
We have the tools–why is the Fascist Empire of the United States want to control the internet, the airwaves and monitor the modern technologies of knowledge dissemination–they fear it and they fear us…we have far greater power than we know or are willing to admit. There will be a time however, and that time is coming faster than I ever thought, when the forces of decentralization, community, and the power of the collective will of a free people will destroy the centralized, innately corrupt beast, the Leviathan in DC trying to strangle us. Take the Red Pill and experience our rights as free men and women before the jackboots of tyranny are clicking outside your families door. No one will be immune from the coming socioeconomic collapse–it is near and it will be very, very ugly.
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30th December 2012 at 12:38 pm
beast rudolfo says:
Optimistic article chickenshit. The people must remember our founding document: The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution is the second government of the independent states. Some experpts:
1. “When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”
2. “. . .That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,. . .”
3. “. . . evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
4. ” We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us.”
5. “They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.”
The 56 signatories knew if captured alive, they would be hung. If some idiot neo con dies in a pool of blood, with troops on the street, it is an act of war. Maybe then some real hope & change will happen.
b.r.
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30th December 2012 at 12:53 pm
JIMSKI says:
I will not obey. I will have to leave it at that as anything i write from here on could-would be considered a threat against the government.
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30th December 2012 at 12:58 pm
Yojimbo says:
I think you have a few options:
1. Under some state’s laws you can still sell a weapon and not keep records to whom you sold it. So, you say you sold your weapon to someone and kept no records.
2. You report your weapon as having been stolen, or lost in a canoe accident.
3. You keep your weapons off of your property at several locations, so the authorities don’t know where they are stored (reminds me of the British searching for weapons to confiscate at Concord and Lexington…).
4. You refuse to comply and go to jail and attempt to litigate, and become a public dissident.
5. You go off the grid, removing all traces of yourself from the system, and take your weapons.
6. You fire upon the authorities and die and become a martyr for the cause.
7. You fire upon the authorities and hopefully survive, becoming a champion of the cause.
8. You comply with their laws and decide to become a domestic insurgent, and research other methods of disrupting the system, using malicious code, gasoline, propane tanks, fertilizer – sort of like a partisan in France in WWII.
9. You take a hint from Tom Ball and publicly set yourself on fire in front of a government building.
10. You comply and work tirelessly to revoke the unconstitutional law.
11. You leave the country and live abroad.
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30th December 2012 at 1:09 pm
Eddie says:
When they come for my guns I’ll give them the broom handled Mauser with the broken firing and hide the rest as best I can for as long as I can. I have some ideas for how to do that.
Because we already do live, more or less, in a police state already, I think most of the answers involve passive resistance, quiet non-compliance, and flying under the radar of TPTB.
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30th December 2012 at 1:39 pm
AWD says:
I would recommend to TBP’ers NOT to give specific plans to this question. Try to paint a generalized picture, something that won’t come back to haunt you like a jackboot to the throat.
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30th December 2012 at 1:47 pm
AWD says:
Homeland Security Presidential Directive 5
Homeland Security Presidential Directive 5 (HSPD-5), Management of Domestic Incidents, established a new means to federal emergency management. It centers on the practical requirement that all levels of government have a single, unified approach to managing domestic incidents. Pursuant to the Homeland Security Act of 2002, HSPD-5 tasked the secretary of homeland security to develop and administer a National Response Framework (NRF) that would integrate federal government domestic prevention, preparedness, response, and recovery plans into one all-discipline, all-hazards plan. It also tasked the secretary of homeland security to develop and administer a National Incident Management System (NIMS) that would unify federal, state, and local government capabilities to work together to prepare for, respond to, and recover from domestic events regardless of cause, size, or complexity. The intent of the NRF and NIMS is to provide the structure and mechanisms for establishing national-level policy and operational direction regarding federal support to state and local incident managers.
HSPD-5 also reaffirmed the secretary of homeland security’s responsibility as the principal federal official for domestic incident management. HSPD-5 tasked the secretary of homeland security with coordinating the federal government’s resources in response to or recovery from terrorist attacks, major disasters, or other emergencies. This coordination responsibility exists when any one of the following four conditions applies:
A federal department or agency acting under its own authority has requested the assistance of the secretary.
The resources of state and local authorities are overwhelmed and federal assistance has been requested by the appropriate state and local authorities.
More than one federal department or agency has become substantially involved in responding to the incident.
The secretary has been directed to assume responsibility for managing the domestic incident by the president.
HSPD-5 eliminates the previous distinction between crisis management and consequence management, treating the two “as a single, integrated function, rather than as two separate functions.” Under the NRF, the secretary of homeland security remains the lead federal official for the duration of the period involving federal assistance. The attorney general is the lead official for conducting criminal investigations of terrorist acts or terrorist threats.
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30th December 2012 at 1:50 pm
AWD says:
The Legal Framework
This chapter addresses the legal framework for military involvement in domestic disaster response missions, properly known as defense support to civil authorities (DSCA). It will address the federal response structure, the Stafford Act, the Posse Comitatus Act, civil disturbance operations, and specialized chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-yield explosive (CBRNE) consequence management response force (CCMRF) responders. It will also touch on the difference between Title 10 Soldiers and Title 32 Guardsmen. It will not include counterdrug operations, military support to special events, or other miscellaneous missions, including military assistance to safety and traffic, animal and plant eradication, support to private organizations, etc. It also does not address the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. For rules on the use of force, law enforcement support, intelligence oversight, and other legal considerations, see Appendix J of this handbook.
In 2002, the Department of Defense (DOD) created the first combatant command, U.S. Northern Command (USNORTHCOM), with direct responsibility for the defense, protection and security of the continental United States, Alaska, and territorial waters including the Gulf of Mexico and the Straits of Florida. In conjunction with U.S. Pacific Command and U.S. Southern Command, DOD now has combatant commands with combined geographic responsibilities that cover all states and territories of the United States. In June 2005, DOD published the Strategy for Homeland Defense and Civil Support, setting out the department’s vision for transforming homeland defense and support to civil authorities. The deputy secretary of defense directed the creation of three CCMRFs, which are essentially joint task forces, each manned by 4,700 military personnel and highly trained for domestic catastrophic response. In a clear and compelling break with past practice, the first CCMRF was immediately assigned to USNORTHCOM, with an expectation that the remaining two CCMRFs would be similarly assigned in 2010 and 2011.
If these changes are fully implemented, more than 20,000 active duty military personnel will soon have domestic catastrophic response as their mission focus. This military capability – though sensible and even admirable in its operational value – raises important questions of law and public policy.
In Federalist 8, Alexander Hamilton presciently noted the danger in relying excessively upon military forces to ensure domestic security. His cautionary words remain relevant today. The preservation of innocent life – and liberty – requires that domestic military missions be subject to very close scrutiny by civilian DOD leadership, Congress, the media, and the courts. To that end, it is essential that military lawyers provide clear and informed guidance on domestic military missions, assessing the express language of applicable law, and the fundamental propriety of any proposed military mission when judged in the larger context of American history.
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30th December 2012 at 1:51 pm
OF says:
I´m beginning to understand why GWB reacted so lamely to Katrina… Again, strategy, not shortcoming…
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30th December 2012 at 2:02 pm
beast rudolfo says:
AWD
+1 big thumbs up.
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30th December 2012 at 2:03 pm
Riley says:
Fuck this. If it truly comes to this where guns are rounded up in some show quasi show of military force, it will be time to go guerilla. I get so sick of the arguement that nobody can possibly stand up to a modern American military unit. Yes, it would be foolish for the average citizen to.
However all government assets at all times cannot nor will not be protected. Attack where they are weak not where they are strong.
Besides that if the military is in open operations against US citizens, the constitutionl republic will be over and the idea of America will be done. A whole new ballgame will have started.
Both the Afghanis and the Iraqis fought the vaunted US militray to a standstill. Fuck this defeatist bullshit.
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30th December 2012 at 2:26 pm
sangell says:
Using military assets and troops for ‘catastrophe response’ or homeland defense is legitimate but even here I notice PD-5 sees legal problems with such missions. Obviously if there was bio or chemical event military CBW units and equipment would be essential to protect lives. A large police force my have a bomb squad or haz mat team on the fire department but if you’ve got a large cloud of toxic yeech enveloping a city its going to be all hands on deck.
Its worth remembering that Eisenhower did send in Federal troops to enforce the integration of public schools in Little Rock. The Constitutionality of that was perhaps dubious but it was also on the order of Eisenhower a dozen years after VE-day. Its unlikely we will ever again have a president with the authority and prestige within the Armed Forces as Eisenhower. Obama ordering the commander of the 101st airborne to deploy his troops, not to protect 9 black high school students, but to protect Obama’s prestige and authority is likely to be met with 99 reasons why that wouldn’t be possible.
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30th December 2012 at 2:35 pm
AWD says:
The Posse Comitatus Act
The primary statute restricting military support to civilian law enforcement is the Posse Comitatus Act (PCA) 18 U.S. Code, section 1385. The phrase “posse comitatus” is literally translated from Latin as the “power of the county” and is defined in common law to refer to all those over the age of 15 upon whom a sheriff could call for assistance in preventing any type of civil disorder. The PCA states:
Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both.
The PCA was enacted in 1878, primarily as a result of the military presence in the South during Reconstruction following the Civil War. The intent of the PCA was to limit direct military involvement with civilian law enforcement, absent Congressional or constitutional authorization, in the enforcement of the laws of the United States. The PCA is a criminal statute and violators are subject to fine and/or imprisonment. The PCA does not, however, prohibit all military involvement in civilian law enforcement. A considerable amount of military participation with civilian law enforcement is permissible, either as indirect support or under one of the numerous PCA exceptions.
In addition to the PCA, 10 U.S. Code, chapter 18, Military Support for Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies and Department of Defense Directive (DODD) 5525.5, DOD Cooperation with Civilian Law Enforcement Officials, also provide guidance in this area. Both authorities provide additional guidance regarding restrictions the PCA places on the military when supporting civilian law enforcement agencies.
PCA applies to the Army and Air Force, but 10 U.S. Code, section 375 directs the secretary of defense to promulgate regulations that prohibit “direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law.” The secretary of defense subsequently prohibited these activities in DODD 5525.5, and, as a result, the restrictions placed on Army and Air Force activities through the PCA now apply to the Navy and Marine Corps. The PCA does not apply to the Coast Guard unless it is operating under the command and control of the DOD.
The PCA also applies to reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps who are on active duty, active duty for training, or inactive duty training in a Title 10 duty status. Members of the National Guard performing operational support duties, active duty for training, or inactive duty training in a Title 32 duty status are not subject to the PCA. Only members of the National Guard in Title 10 (federal) duty status are subject to the PCA. Members of the National Guard also perform additional duties in a state active duty (SAD) status and are not subject to PCA in that capacity. Civilian employees of the DOD are only subject to the prohibitions of the PCA if they are under the direct command and control of a military officer.
Finally, the PCA does not apply to a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps when they are off duty and acting in a private capacity. A service member is not in a private capacity when assistance is rendered to civilian law enforcement officials under the direction or control of DOD authorities.
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30th December 2012 at 3:08 pm
Eddie says:
U.S. troops (including MacArthur and Patton) were used to disperse peaceful protesters in Washington D.C. during the Great Depression( by Herbert Hoover, who was NOT a popular guy at the time). People were injured and some died, although no accurate body count was ever taken. Some sources say at least one infant was killed.
Troops will do what they are told to do. It doesn’t matter if the President is a socialist a-hole.
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30th December 2012 at 3:09 pm
flash says:
I duly pledge to take it up the ass in exchange
for permission to
Work
Travel
Build
Create
and Exist
And, I swear to never disobey a direct command from a superior officer of any local ,state or national government as long as I live,
so help me God.
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30th December 2012 at 5:26 pm
Novista says:
A fair few LEOs in Florida are members of Oath Keepers; since my default U.S. address was DeLand FL (for voting purposes), I was getting their e-newsletter before they went web.
Here’s one article:
http://www.floridaoathkeepers.org/2012/10/alert-vertical-integration-of-all-law.html
As for comments about ‘legal issues” remember Fast and Furious Eric Holder never saw a law he could not bend.
It does not matter what you say or don’t say here — when the crunch comes, ~they~ will look at the list and assume a worst case scenario for everyone.
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30th December 2012 at 5:55 pm
SSS says:
Some good points so far, such as. 1) Hide weapons (Eddie). Agree. This will occur on an extrordinarily wide basis. 2) Improbable compliance by many state officials, particularly county sheriffs (sangell). I agree 100%. I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County (Arizona’s most populous) or Sheriff Paul Babeau of Pinal County (Arizona’s third most populous) would ever entertain thoughts of cooperating with the feds. Those two have spent a career poking the feds in the eye with a sharp stick!!!! And they will have the backing of Governor Jan Brewer, Attorney General Tom Horne, and the majority of the members of the Arizona state legislature. Arizona, for one, will not play those games.
Now, let’s look at some numbers, geography, and a specific example. To catch Admin’s eye, I have selected my place of birth and his current place of residence, Pennsylvania.
If you throw out Philly, Pittsburgh, and maybe Erie, Pennsylvania is one big-ass rural state run by the Republicans, starting with the Governor and the state legislature. How many people in rural PA? 3 million. How many people own guns in PA? 4 million, and you can take it to the bank that most of these are in rural areas.
So let’s look at rural law enforcement in PA, and what is main source? The PA State Police, which numbers 4,700 troopers to cover about 40,000 square miles. That’s one trooper per 8.5 square miles, 24/7. That’s a friggin’ joke unless you believe that cops don’t ever need to sleep. And you can forget town and village cops in PA as allies of the feds. Not gonna happen. Ever.
So let’s consider other resources which can quell the stirring masses. The PA Army National Guard, which numbers 19,000. That’s a lot, but you have to consider that 16,000 of that figure are weekend warriors who are your neighbors and make their living as doctors, engineers, insurance agents, real estate brokers, factory workers, and the like. I can’t think of a more unreliable source of firepower to turn on their family, friends, and neighbors.
There’s your picture of reality. Philly and Pittsburgh will fall to the feds quickly. Forget the rest of PA. It’ll be a shitstorm. And it comes from a “blue” state in the northeast. Things really turn to dog doo-doo when you get to the south, midwest, and mountain west. The feds get the big shitties, and the people get the countryside. That’s happened in the past. In China’s civil war, Mao had the countryside, and Chiang Kai-Shek held the cities. You know who won.
So stare and despair at all that federal firepower you want. It doesn’t stand a chance against the American people.
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30th December 2012 at 5:57 pm
Llpoh says:
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30th December 2012 at 6:41 pm
AWD says:
President Obama Announces Gun Strategy
Dateline Washington DC, December 30, 2012.
President B. Hussein Obama announced today that he intends to enact new legislation banning various assault weapons and high capacity magazines as early as April 19, 2013.
“I’ve spoken with the leadership of the BATFE, the FBI, the CIA, and the military,” stated the president during a newscast earlier today, “And they assure me that the American people agree that there is no reason for any civilian to own these types of military weapons, no sporting use whatsoever, and we will begin a field operation on April 19 of next year to remove them from the general population.”
The president intends to sign the legislation at a ceremony to be held somewhere in the Lexington/Concord area of Massachusetts.
We contacted official spokespersons at the BATFE (shown above during a training session) and were told that they expect little resistance, if any.
“The American people are behind this legislation,” stated BATFE spokesperson Lon Horiuchi, formerly of the FBI Hostage Rescue Team, “And besides, we out-gun them. I, myself, am a hell of a shot – ever heard of a two-fer?”
We attempted to contact the American people, but they were out having Sunday afternoon target practice and weren’t available for comment.
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30th December 2012 at 7:32 pm
John A says:
I have stated this before and I will state it again: If you think US Reserve and Guard units (roughly half of the US military) joined the armed forces to kill their own citizens, you’re nuts. Would you shoot you’re own friends and citizens? Kick in doors of your law-abiding neighbors? Pass any gun-control law you want, ultimately this will be an exercise in herding fucking cats. The government will just be compounding its problems and destroying further support of the people.
“Besides that if the military is in open operations against US citizens, the constitutionl republic will be over and the idea of America will be done. A whole new ballgame will have started.” Well said, Riley.
“So stare and despair at all that federal firepower you want. It doesn’t stand a chance against the American people.” Well said, SSS.
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30th December 2012 at 7:53 pm
IraK's friend says:
Wanna keep your guns? Join the Sherif’s posse or join the police reserve. If you cant beat ‘em, join ‘em. In the reserve you can train on those Swat tanks, shoot automatic wepons, and play like a storm trooper. People respect you when your wearing a uniform and have a big gun. they listen to you and do what you tell them.
You don’t get paid but you might be inline for a cop job. And as cop or a reserve you won’t everget pushed around because youll be the one doing th3 pushing.
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30th December 2012 at 8:03 pm
SSS says:
“Pass any gun-control law you want, ultimately this will be an exercise in herding fucking cats”
—-John A
Precisely, John A. Well said, in classic TBP language no less.
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30th December 2012 at 8:34 pm
Yojimbo says:
Does anyone know anything about this .22 caliber subsonic ammunition? Will this be on a list of banned ammunition if it is truely quiet?
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30th December 2012 at 8:41 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
National guard units are often deployed to areas NOT being their home towns. The people they face are not neighbors or friends but strangers—law breaking strangers from their point of view. When the commander says “fire” they shoot or get court marshaled. When commanded to detain people they will. Most Guard members are relative young and I would guess most of them know little about civil liberties or civil disobedience. They only know when the captain commands they hop to it.
What was the demographics of the Kent State guards?
What is the demographics of the armed forces?
I know you want to believe that they will not enforce the “laws” but they would have little choice.
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30th December 2012 at 8:58 pm
John A says:
@Chronic Agitator:
I am a retired ANG Senior NCO. I know these soldiers. How many years did your serve in military? What branch of the sevice? At what rank did you retire?
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30th December 2012 at 9:11 pm
sangell says:
Just a thought. I saw, as perhaps many of you did, a bb gun on TV that used a camp stove sized propane bottle of compressed air to fire a stream of BB’s that literally chewed its target to bits. Not long range and not particularly powerful but also not a ‘firearm’. The producer of the show put a caption on the screen as this ‘bb gun’ was being demonstrated ‘sorry kids not available for sale”
There are some pretty good air rifles out there. My guess is there will soon be better ones. Much better ones A small scuba tank size air supply with 3000 psi as a ‘power source’ worn on the back could propel hundreds of .177 or .22 caliber pellets at rifle velocities in a hail of fire that would make
Dianne Feinstein long for the days of the semi-auto AR-15 with a 30 round clip.
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30th December 2012 at 9:29 pm
ecliptix543 says:
Yojimbo – Which one are you referring to? Aguila’s Colibri or their 60gr “Sniper” subsonics, or something else? I’ve played with as many kinds of so-called quiet .22 as I could find and I’ve not been impressed with the physical results thus far. You’d be better off getting a .22Mag and one of those oil filter threaded adapter thingies for a makeshift suppressor. Triples your effective range and virtually silent…
Oops.. did I just write that out loud? Oh well. Fuck ‘em.
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30th December 2012 at 9:33 pm
ecliptix543 says:
Sangell – That’s how the Wehrmacht trained under the conditions of Versailles before Hitler finally said ‘Fuck it’ and rearmed Germany.
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30th December 2012 at 9:35 pm
Eric T says:
@John A
Your response (or rather non-response) to Chronic Agitator contains at least two logical fallacies. It contains an ad hominem attack (he didn’t serve so his point should be ignored) and an appeal to authority (I am a retired ANG Senior NCO so what I say is correct). Neither of those statements prove anything. If you have experience with NG personnel being free thinkers who consider the constitutionality of orders before deciding whether to obey, please enlighten us. I would love to hear a retired NCO say “the men I commanded would turn their guns on officers who gave an unjust order.” You said nothing other than “I know these soldiers.” What do you know about them?
Hot debate. What do you think?
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30th December 2012 at 9:37 pm
Llpoh says:
Eric T – I for one think the point John A made is correct. By and large, military and national guard forces will be reluctant to slaughter.
History shows that the police will be used for that purpose. They are accustomed to persecuting the public, and see themselves as a force apart from the public. They will be the thugs used to enforce laws and to brutalize.
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30th December 2012 at 9:58 pm
ThePessimisticChemist says:
SSS had an excellent post written out above, an all out “war on guns” would result in revolution at the local and state level.
I do fear the slow death of the 2nd amendment though, right now people are leaning more towards “small” limits on guns.
Such as…..
No “assault” or “military” style weapons, which can be anything from a modified .22 (black plastic instead of wood makes things “assault” to most people) to a fucking chain cannon.
“Disturbed” individuals may not purchase weapons. A lot of people are for this. I am not. The ever broadening list of things that make someone “disturbed” makes it incredibly easy for the government to blacklist perfectly normal people for no reason whatsoever.
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30th December 2012 at 10:45 pm
Anonymous says:
John A says:
@Chronic Agitator:
“I am a retired ANG Senior NCO. I know these soldiers. How many years did your serve in military? What branch of the sevice? At what rank did you retire?”
If you really want to know, Sargent, I was in the REAL army —the one where soldiers obeyed whether they liked it or not. On big fucking helicopters near Viet Nam/ Korea is where and is the shit you probably missed out on. I was a draftee and not about to retire from the army. FTA Thanks for your service.
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30th December 2012 at 10:51 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
Responsible for the “Anonymous” post
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30th December 2012 at 10:54 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
Llpoh says:
“Eric T – I for one think the point John A made is correct. By and large, military and national guard forces will be reluctant to slaughter.”
@ Lloph
Yes they will be reluctant but I think most would obey in the fray.
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30th December 2012 at 10:58 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
If some Guards or Soldiers obey and some do not then what happens? Will they turn on each other?… very unlikely but it will take only a few who obey to cause huge damage.
I would not want to be on the front line of a riot trying to stare down these guys.
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30th December 2012 at 11:19 pm
sangell says:
Circumstances are important in regards to ANG deployments. If they go into a community that has people rioting they will restore order. That is part of their training and mission. I lived in Berkeley, Ca in the late sixties when they had riots. The Alameda County deputy sheriffs did most of the ‘law enforcement’ and for that they became known as the ‘blue meanies’ after the color of their jump suits. ANG deployed along the perimeter to prevent access to the Telegraph Ave. ‘battle zone’. They did that in no uncertain terms and told teeny boppers such as myself to ‘keep moving creep’ as they were not going to let more long hairs wander on up and toss rocks at the cops.
OTOH, assuming no civil disturbances are taking place, the argument is going to be at a higher level. Guard Commanders are going to ask why the need to be deployed at all. If the Governor isn’t calling them out ( and they are normally under the control of the state Governor, all hell could break loose if a president attempts to ‘Federalize’ them over the opposition of a state Governor) It is at this point that I think Guard commanders would have to take sides. You might remember everyone wondered where was the Louisiana National Guard after Hurricane Katrina. Well, Governor Blanco hadn’t called them up and Bush wasn’t going to ‘federalize’ them and put them under his control. Its a touchy subject. Eisenhower did it in Little Rock when he ordered the 101st into that city to escort 9 black high school kids into Central High School. Obviously he did not want the Governor to call up the state Guard units and have a confrontation between regular army and state guard units under the command of the Governor. That’s how civil wars start!
This is serious business and senior ANG commanders aren’t going to take it lightly or be used by politicians.
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30th December 2012 at 11:56 pm
John A says:
Chronic Agitator:
Thank you for your service also. I worked with and around thousands of reservists and guardsmen for 23 years. They would not fire at civilians unless they were fired upon first or approached in a hostile/threatening manner. That is my opinion. I also feel that way about active duty military personnel. I have found most military people to be some of the most patriotic men and women I have ever known. Thanks for commenting here.
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30th December 2012 at 12:18 am
bruce says:
All I can say is just let ‘em go a head and ban guns. If they want to it doesn’t make a shit what the public wants or what the constitution says there gonna do it.
Now lets see…………………..
Booze was once banned. That was a real fuck up and only helped the criminal organizations amass tremendous wealth and power in a very short period of time. Wealth and power they never gave up.
They Banned Assault weapons once. It didn’t seem to have much of any effect but the criminals still had them and used them more in some cities.
They banned Pot. How has that worked out? Doesn’t appear people obey that ban very well, even some states don’t obey that ban
In 1913 they banned opium, cocaine, morphine and all kinds of really good dope. Never made a dent in usage. People say fuck the law I’m gonna get high and addicted to something. Again the only benefit has been to the pocket books of the criminals and the dopers go right on smoking, snorting and shooting their preferred drugs.
Meth is illegal. But you can get it everywhere. If you live in the country probably someone within a 20 mile radius is making it.
You can’t make moonshine but somehow you can still get a jar of white lightning almost anywhere.
They banned guns in some cities and people still get shot by people with guns.
If people can’t go to a local Wal-mart or gun shop to get guns they will go to the next county or next state or to the black market. If they want guns they will get guns.
If you want to take away guns many will hide them. Probably half the guns out there they don’t even have records on. How the hell are they even going to have a clue as to where those might be or who might have them.
What about some guy with say…….six 1851 Navy Colts stuffed in his belt and in holsters. No one has a record of those. He’s got 30 rounds of honorably mangling projectiles even with the hammer down over an empty cylinder on each. If he wanted to rampage and do some real damage he could Josey Wales style. If some nut wants to go on an insane killing spree with fire arms he will ban or no ban, legal guns or no legal guns.
When you consider the idea that there is no way to fight the massive power of the military and the police It may sound rational. But only for a moment. Look at Afghanistan, Vietnam. Even in Iraq
the resistance has never been completely defeated. How is the government going to use military units or swat teams to fight several million armed pissed off people or small groups of people in several million locations going around fucking up the system at random 24/7. That’s only a small percentage of the public. It certainly is a possibility that a small percentage of the people to go rouge and fight and that would be enough.
There would be no battle lines, no formations of an insurgent army for a conventional military to take out. Sure they will nail a bunch of guys who get caught in a firefight or get cornered. But for everyone they kill two or three will be spawned who are not only pissed but with hearts burning for revenge.
If just a small percentage of the people go to arms things will get hairy. And what if the dollar evaporates into worthlessness, or the oil supply is disrupted, or there are massive natural disasters, or food shortages or the welfare and food stamps stop while all this is going on?
How are the government, the military and the police going to deal with all the chaos when the Obama phones go down and FS flow is shut off. They won’t. They will be rolled over and stampeded by near 300 million crazed starving people and FSA zombies and the gun fighters would still be on the loose. There would be no end of trouble in the world.
Even if it does not play out exactly like that the USA and probably the world will eventually go Mad Max Insane with body counts in the billions killed or starved.
We are doomed.
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30th December 2012 at 12:24 am
SSS says:
“National guard units are often deployed to areas NOT being their home towns. The people they face are not neighbors or friends but strangers—law breaking strangers from their point of view.”
—-Chronic Agitator
Come on, Chronic. You can do better than that. That might work if your unit is sent to a big city, but if you are deployed to an area in the countryside other than your home turf, the word will get around ….. fast. These people know each other and have trained together for years.
Here’s the situation. “I’m taking my unit to Bill’s town, Bill’s headed over Bob’s town, and Bob’s coming into my area.” Are you fucking serious? Do you honestly think the National Guard unit commanders would fall for that blatant “divide and conquer” ploy? Or even more importantly, the troops under their command.
I’m surprised no has addressed the possibility of the president federalizing all National Guard forces, air and ground. He can do that with the stroke of a pen. Boom!!!! The Guard goes from under the command of the state governors to the president, and he has just instantly gained hundreds of thousands of troops to add to his active duty armed forces, should they still be playing along..
I don’t have a pat answer for what comes next except ……….. PAIN.
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30th December 2012 at 1:00 am
Outtahere says:
Good question, but it is posed by a lilly-livered asshole from El Paso, TX now living in San Miguel de
Allende in Mexico, supposedly an attorney of sorts. I’ve read some of his trash before and it’s always the same.
Having said that, it is not rhetoric for most people I know when they say “from my cold dead hands”.
For myself, I’ll die at my front door if they ever come to take my guns away. Why would I even want to live in a country where I can’t legally protect my family and my property through legally owning ANY kind of gun? If I die in a pool of blood inside or outside my house makes no difference to me, but setting an example for others and hopefully building sentiment against whatever forces are present may matter; or not. It’s my choice. I’d rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
And what’s the point of hiding guns anyway????? Does anyone think that there will be a better time to use them than when they’re trying to take them away? That’s delusional. Besides, the longer things continue to deteriorate, the stronger the govt. will get. They will have technology on their side and that’s going to be harder to fight than a few troops in your neighborhood. It’s kind of hard to defend against a drone or UAV flying at 20,000 ft. and putting a Hellfire missile down your chimney. The sooner it all falls apart the better
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30th December 2012 at 1:10 am
ragman says:
NO, I will not obey!
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30th December 2012 at 9:44 am
flash says:
No, the NG units won’t fire on you , they’ll just disarm you and leave you defenseless , unless you stand your ground and then it’s on..
FWIW , throughout history neighbors have imprisoned, tortured and killed neighbors at the behest of those in power.
It’s delusional to think Americana BoobUs is any different.
National Guard Confiscating Guns in New Orleans.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA4JCKwEpfQ
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30th December 2012 at 10:10 am
sangell says:
Let’s look at this pragmatically. Calling out the national guard is expensive. Those troops get paid and they burn lots of gasoline and other supplies mobilizing. If you keep them mobilized it has other costs as the are away from their regular jobs. They have to be doing something too. Going house to house to collect guns? Under what pretense? Guardsman knocks on my door and asks if I have any illegal weapons, I’ll say ‘not here, have a good day’. If Guardsman says ‘can I come in and look’ and I’ll say not without a search warrant, go get one down at the county courthouse but you’ll need probable cause and that judge is going to be looking for a new job if he starts handing them out to you guys.
Then there’s the Governor. Let’s say Jerry Brown wants to use the state national guard to collect illegal firearms. Back to my first point. Where’s he going to get the money? He can’t pay the state’s bill now. Think he can pay for thousands of National Guardsmen to go around door to door in a state of 38 million looking for 30 round clips?
Lets not get carried away with phantom scenarios.
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30th December 2012 at 10:43 am
youcanthavemyglock says:
sangell, great post, THIS is the truth, no money to do this and not feasible to get search warrants for every household in America.
We win either way, if Feinstein’s bill passes it will cause chaos, unrest and will only accelerate 4th Turning which is fine by me
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30th December 2012 at 11:42 am
Stucky says:
“Both the Afghanis and the Iraqis fought the vaunted US militray to a standstill. Fuck this defeatist bullshit.” ——– Riley
An Afgani can sleep in a cave on a dirt floor in the dead of winter, on one change of clothes, survive with ZERO creature comforts …. and thrive on a handful of rice per day. Show me an American with similar attributes.
Hot debate. What do you think?
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30th December 2012 at 12:26 pm
Novista says:
SSS
Two most excellent posts, logical and pragmatic at the same time. Kudos.
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30th December 2012 at 9:49 pm
S. Wesley Mcgranor says:
Unless we are in Catholic dictatorship; the accusation of fascism is not plausible.
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30th December 2012 at 11:42 pm
Chronic Agitator says:
From Admin’s interesting new post—
MOTHER, SHOULD I TRUST THE GOVERNMENT?
Obedience to Authority
“Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.” – Stanley Milgram – Obediance to Authority”
Is this not what the National Guard and occupying military do? When is the above statement true and when is it not?
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30th December 2012 at 8:13 am
Novista says:
CA
Does the oath you swore mean anything? The structure is a hierarchy.
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30th December 2012 at 8:20 am
Chronic Agitator says:
Novista says:
CA
“Does the oath you swore mean anything? The structure is a hierarchy.”
Novista, I don’t understand–please expound.
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30th December 2012 at 8:32 am
flash says:
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30th December 2012 at 8:59 am
Seen says:
Before getting to the question “WILL YOU OBEY?”
““When they come for my gun, they will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands,” is a common refrain I often hear from the Neo-Cons when there is a threat, credible or otherwise, that the US government is going to take their firearms.”
First, Neo-Cons are are a branch of Republicans who by and large are pro-Military and Empire building. Neo-Cons would be in the privileged group to not only possess protection details but also possess access to their own arms as well as Democrat and Republican progressives.
“And, it is not just your hometown cops who are getting new boy-toys. The military itself is buying up weaponry not just for use in the current or next scheduled war, but to deal with the likes of you, citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience.”
Second, It’s not a surprising development. Cloward-Piven advertised itself as a matter of increasing benefits and enrollment, but it’s also a study used to create animosity for political purposes as well as people most likely to resort to,
“I only wish to protect myself from the hordes of people that will rob, steal and murder when their SNAP cards no longer work, and they can’t get their direct deposit cash anymore. Hunger makes people do animalistic things, some even resort to cannibalism.”
As a result of increasing enrollment and political campaign promises to buy votes, it also means with each kick the can; the end result when Cloward-Piven is activated people either beg or view martial law as help.
““…for the last two years, the President’s Budget Submissions for the Department of Defense have included purchases of a significant amount of combat equipment, including armored vehicles, helicopters and even artillery, under an obscure section of the FY2008 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for the purposes of ‘homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities.’ Items purchased under the section include combat vehicles, tanks, helicopters, artillery, mortar systems, missiles, small arms and communications equipment. Justifications for the budget items indicate that many of the purchases are part of routine resupply and maintenance, yet in each case the procurement is cited as being ‘necessary for use by the active and reserve components of the Armed Forces for homeland defense missions, domestic emergency responses, and providing military support to civil authorities’ under section 1815 of the FY 2008 NDAA.””
“And, to you tough-talking Neo-Cons with your AR-15 rifles and a few thousand rounds of ammo, here is the reality: they will take your guns, and no, all your Second Amendment bluster aside, you are not going to do anything about it. You are not going to take on a platoon of Marines with state-of-the-art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters unless you choose to die that day — for nothing. You will either be in the country or out, and if you are in, you will stay in and you will comply.”
Third, this seems to ignore this previous statement:
“citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience”
Lets make sure that we’re on the same page. According to Agenda 21 and Sustainable Development each person is considered human capital and resources to be allocated by the central state. Your life or death, care or ‘dropped care’, and even your own reproduction is determined as your genetic, productive use to government, and etc. You are in effect owned by the government as private property is abolished, and this centers upon your body is yours and thus your works belong to you, which little of the population understands is eroded through wealth redistribution and etc.
Not only are you owned by the government, government officials and merged private interests as well as private government-private partnerships agents and etc are effectively petty dictators. TSA being able to effectively molest passengers in the name of security and protection is not the worse-case scenario, but it does condition the populace for worst. In short, the worst is that such public employees are typically granted little Caesar powers to otherwise rob, mug, rape, kill, and etc anyone that they wish to. This isn’t even the worst of it as through the Malthusian-Eugenicist merger of Neo-Malthusians your psychological profile not only enables them to use overpopulation, your view for even possessing a firearm, and etc against you; your decision to go along to get along and submit and obey simply according to what I can gather on the blue list or people who are required of a re-education, which is simply a neutral meaning to be put through trauma based torture to effectively re-educate people. To put it plainly, the more I researched the list topic; I’ve found four colors: People who are on the black list is simply dead, so your willingness to live a little bit longer simply means you live long enough to disappear out of the public’s sight and executed at leisure, people who are on the blue list are dissidents who are determined black at the given time, which simply in short if you:
A. Turn over all arms, ammunition, food/water storage, and etc.
B. Keep your posture as the likely foreign agents not only strip you of all preparedness and self-sufficiency including defense steals all precious loot, rapes your loved ones, and etc.
C. Offer no resistance and historically includes repudiations
You may be able to get by without being re-educated or executed.
People who are yellow appear to be supporters, or people who already shown to go along to get along and thus submit and obey or even love their servitude.
Again, there’s always the factor of proving your worth to government, and your blue listing guarantees when there’s trouble guess who will be approached to conduct repudiations? The blue listed survivors, and no one should be surprised when history repeats itself turning such interrogations into enhanced interrogations.
“That is your choice… for the moment.”
No, it’s not ‘for the moment’. When the gun confiscation comes, it cements the drop of any voice of power within the populace. This is why most national socialist regimes possess heavy elements of Malthusian-Eugenicist markings or Neo-Malthusians within their power structures.
If you go blue, you doom your genetic descendents to a lifetime of suspicion, or the government simply stamps out your lineage within generations by defining your genetics to be faulty and unworthy of reproduction or numerous other overpopulation or genetic illness excuses. It’s concludes until the Virtual Cashless Authoritarian system dies, which in various gaming terms: Checkmate, I’ve taken your last Checker, your last supply center or breached a vital geographical choke point of the stalemate line and enables me to collapse your entire line to the last center, or I eliminated all opponents (Chess, Checkers, Diplomacy, and Civilization).
Onto the question:
“WILL YOU OBEY?”
Simply, this is the question everyone needs to ask themselves. Historically and in recent memory, superior resolve tends to trump opponents of superior technology. China did it in the Korean War, Afghanistan and Iraq did it with insurgencies, which
Stucky says:
““Both the Afghanis and the Iraqis fought the vaunted US militray to a standstill. Fuck this defeatist bullshit.” ——– Riley
An Afgani can sleep in a cave on a dirt floor in the dead of winter, on one change of clothes, survive with ZERO creature comforts …. and thrive on a handful of rice per day. Show me an American with similar attributes.
Hot debate. What do you think?”
ignores this requires either those caves being prepared in advance, or the nearest people have been aiding the insurgents in direct or indirect measures. So, it is possible to stand up to a powerful and technologically advanced central state like the US; however, this article largely ignores several additional factors:
First, If I obey, how long will I live?
Second, if I obey, can I watch or learn of friends and loved ones being robbed, raped, and even murdered for non-compliance or lack of obedience or being properly cordial to governmental people?
Third, Am I willing to resist and risk dieing and likely die for these fill in the blank/s
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30th December 2012 at 2:38 am
Novista says:
CA
It goes like this:
“I, XXXXXXXXXX, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will
support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;
and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States
and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
Nothing trumps the Constitution, the highest law, authority, of the country.
Otherwise, “I was just following orders” is an excuse.
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30th December 2012 at 6:00 am