I was responding to an Anon in the “History of Christmas in America” thread who wrote: — “Actually, there WAS a star that “moved” the day Christ was born. Read Matthew 2:2 (A star),”. My response became so lengthy I decided to keep adding to it and make it a separate thread.
Overview: The Star of Bethlehem was not an astronomical event, although it certainly was celestial (def; “belonging or relating to heaven”). The “literal star” interpretation cheapens the glory of what occurred. A celestial interpretation imparts truth, honor, and glory to the circumstances surrounding the birth of the King of Kings.
The Scripture: Matthew 2:1-11
“ … behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.” When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.’ ”
Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also.” When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.”
A Literal Star Is Inconsistent With The Astronomy
1)- Stars don’t break the laws of physics. They don’t suddenly appear out of nowhere, leave their orbits to wander the galaxy until it finds our solar system, disappears, reappears, changes directions, then stops, hangs around a little while … and then disappears forever after. That’s what a literal interpretation of the Star of Bethlehem requires you to believe. That ain’t no star!
2)- Stars don’t travel (or, are observed) going in every possible direction.
— when the magi left Persia they traveled from east to west. OK so far. But, when they got to Jerusalem the star was gone! So, they had to ask for directions. The priests said Messiah would come out of Bethlehem. OK. Then the star came back and led them to Bethlehem. Not, ok! Jerusalem to Bethlehem is north-south … that’s not how it works.
— The earth rotates. This makes the objects in the sky quickly change position. Everything (stars, planets, supernovas, comets, whatever) rises in the east, arcs rightward during the night and sets in the west. You would go in a giant semicircle if you followed any kind of celestial object.
3)- Then the Star of Bethlehem rested directly over the stable-cave-house where Jesus was!
— Alpha Centauri is our nearest star. Do tell me …. over which state is Alpha Centauri hovering? I’ll make it even easier … over which continent is it hovering? Well, you just can’t tell. Every amateur astronomer, or logical-thinking non-astronomer, knows you can’t find a house by following a star around.
4)- The lack of ANY non-Bible historical evidence.
— The ancients from China to Egypt had surprisingly great knowledge of astronomy. A brand new star arising out of the East at the time of Christ’s birth should have been witnessed by someone other than the Magi. Yet, there is no such mention of this event in any texts from any civilization anywhere.
— There is no plausible explanation as to why this star was apparently only visible to the Magi.
— It is difficult to imagine how Herod could be surprised by the Magi telling him about a new star. Surely, the priests and/or astronomers at his disposal would have seen any such bright or obvious object themselves. They had two years to see it!
— [Side Note Commentary regarding the two years.]
—— Matthew tells us; “when he [Herod] had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared”. First, why call a “secret” meeting simply to ask when they first saw the star? Second, while the answer the wise men gave Herod isn’t directly recorded, we can easily deduce the answer. After the wise men departed for Egypt the scripture records that Herod “slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under“.
—— At a bare minimum, the commonly accepted image we have of the Magi worshiping an infant Jesus must be incorrect. Jesus was at least two years old. The scriptures state likewise. When Herod sends them to Bethlehem, he tells them to find “the young child” … not an infant. Then the star “stood over where the young child was“. And when they entered the HOUSE (not a stable), they “saw the young child“.
—— Also, did you ever notice this? That Herod slaughtered not only all the children in Bethlehem but also “in all the coasts thereof“! That’s a lot of infanticide! And since there is zero non-Bible verification such an event occurred, most scholars believe that at least that aspect of the Nativity is fabricated.
——At any rate, one must wonder that if the Magi saw a star which they believed signaled one of the greatest events in human history … then why did they wait two years? I have not yet read a plausible explanation.
— [End Side Note Commentary]
5)– Look! Up in the sky! It’s a bird, it’s a …… oops, there’s nothing there.
— Well meaning Christians clinging to a literal interpretation have offered many theories as to what the Star of Bethlehem was; literal star, supernova, comet, solar flare, meteor, a planet or an alignment of planets often referred to as the Great Conjunction, and even astrology. All of them fall short from a science/astronomy perspective. See an article from astronomy.com titled, “The Star of Bethlehem: Can science explain what it really was?” (Astronomy.com here)
THEOLOGICAL DIFFICULTIES
There are only three possible conclusions as to what the star was;
Question #1: Is the star a literal star because it fulfills Old testament prophecy?
— There is one, and only one, OT scripture which might be about the Star of Bethlehem, found in Numbers 24:15-19
“I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; A Scepter shall rise out of Israel, And batter the brow of Moab”
That’s it! There’s nothing else in the OT regarding the combination of the Messiah and a physical heavenly star. The theological difficulty literalists face is that this star comes “out of Jacob“. Stars don’t come out of people! The star in Numbers is clearly a person, not a gaseous object found in the heavens. The author even refers to this star as “I see him“. How much clearer can it be?
Yet, most influential early Christian theologians, such as Origen, connected this prophecy with the Star of Bethlehem, and this externalized mis-interpretation has captured Christian thinking for millennia.
— If the star was prophesied in the OT, then Matthew would have clearly stated it as such. Matthew in chapter two tells us 1) that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem “for thus it is written by the prophets“, 2) that Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet“, 3) that Herod killed the children because it “was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet“, and 4) that Mary and Joseph returned to Nazareth “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets“. If the Star of Bethlehem was mentioned in the OT, Matthew would have said so. But, he did not.
Question #2: Did Matthew include the Star Of Bethlehem to give the birth of Jesus more credibility? Possibly.
— First notice what Matthew has the wise men saying; “For we have seen His star”. They didn’t say “for we have seen a star” but, HIS star. The ancients — from Hebrew patriarchs, to Rome, to Greece, to Persia, and beyond — with great regularity connected the birth of their heroes and kings with fantastic astronomical and/or astrological events. Why? It gave their heroes and kings credibility. It is not unreasonable to wonder if Matthew was doing likewise.
— The Magi were not kings, or even astronomers. They were Astrologers! Astrology is a pseudoscience of elaborate systems for predicting terrestrial events from celestial observations. Interpretations rely heavily on symbols. As such, why should we believe that when they say they saw “His star“, that they meant a literal star?? It could have been anything.
—— The first century church fathers and theologians had a great deal of problems with Matthews inclusion of the Wise Men. That’s because astrology was unequivocally and vehemently condemned throughout the Old Testament. In fact, that’s likely why theologians such as Origin preferred a literal star interpretation. Proclaiming that the Star of Bethlehem was an actual physical star kept the hoi polloi from rampant speculation and theological errors … (while, ironically, being blinded by their own theological errors in so proclaiming!).
THE MIRACLE: GOD WITH US IN ALL HIS GLORY
By now you might be screaming,“OK, so what IS the Star of Bethlehem??!!” The answer is so simple that it boggles my mind that it is so easily overlooked or, even when seen, discarded. Of the three possible options listed above, it is the one that requires the least amount of explaining, or rationalizing.
The Scripture: Luke 2: 8-9
“Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night. And behold, an angel of the Lord stood before them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were greatly afraid.”
“Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.“
The Greek word for star is ἀστέρα or astera and simply means “shining object”or”radiance”. Do the Scriptures have anything to say about God and radiance? Let’s find out.
Just before the introduction of the Magi in chapter 2, Matthew tells us in chapter 1 that Jesus will be called Emmanuel, which is to say, God with us. Well, if God is with us at the birth of Christ, where was he before? In tents and buildings and boxes (Ark of the Covenant). But, no longer!
The birth of Jesus introduced a new era of history. For the first time since The Fall, a suitable resting place would be found for God’s glory here on earth – in Christ, for there “dwells all the fullness of God in a human body”. The whole point of Jesus’ birth is the ultimate coming of the presence of God to dwell in the very midst of His people
And what is this presence of God like? Luke tells us; the shepherds were tending their flock, an angel appeared, and “the glory of the Lord shone around them”. We don’t have to rely only on Luke. The bible is loaded from Genesis to Revelation with instances describing or mentioning the “glory of the Lord”.
— It was the glory of God that shined from the burning bush and the glory of God that lit up Moses’ face when he descended from the mountain.
— Isaiah tells us; “Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD rises upon you. … Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn.”
— Revelation tells us that in heaven there is no need for the sun or moon because “the glory of God” provides light.
The Hebrews had a word for this idea of the glory of God which was accompanied with intense light and brightness. They called it the “Shekinah.” Although not used in the Bible, it was coined as a teaching expression. Shekinah was the dwelling place of the glory of God. The glory of God was the presence of God— and when appearing to man there is a glorious light. Shekinah Glory is the visible presence of God. This presence is real. The physical manifestation is real. It wasn’t a star shining that day in Bethlehem … it was Shekinah, the glory of God.
Shekinah! That’s much more exciting and relevant to the Christmas story than a mere puny physical star!
Shekinah! God with us!
Shekinah! God in heaven watching over God in a cradle! Glory be.
THE END
The story of Jesus is very important because it is telling us about the power of the truth and how it presents itself, even how important it is to our health. May the light of Jesus heal us all.
Actually 2 stars moved over New York when the Orange Zionist Jesus was born!
Hilarious fact!
Excellent dissertation, sir. I always enjoy your posts and look forward to reading them.
The Star of Bethlehem has been rightly debated since the story first broke. There are multiple astronomical occurrences around that time, many of which were documented by observers in other countries like China and Greece, which is very important.
Halley’s Comet, in particular, was uncertainly discovered by Greece in 467 BC, but certainly was documented by the Chinese in 240 BC. Halley’s is on a 76-year course, as we all know, and going back through its history we come to its 12 BC flyby, this one recorded by the Chinese and Romans; this could be proving Stucky’s “young man” theory. (Cassius Dio wrote about it hanging over Rome for days, and it was portent of Marcus Agrippa’s death later that same year, they believed.)
This seems a very plausible explanation to me, and would also explain why astrologers would be interested in such a thing. It also, if nothing else, is strong evidence that Jesus was, that He existed, and I find that exciting indeed.
However, Strong’s Concordance does appear to define ἀστέρα / astera as “a star” with a similar usage in the Book of Jude as potentially meaning “comet”.
https://biblehub.com/greek/792.htm
Regarding Herod’s slaughter of young boys in Bethlehem: I erroneously believed that event was recorded by the historian Josephus. Well, it turns out Stucky was right in claiming no record beyond the Bible’s description exists.
Nevertheless, according to the internet, it does appear some historians believe the murders would have been consistent with the documented cruelty expressed by Herod late in his life. They also seem to argue the number of slaughtered boys in the small backwater town of Bethlehem may not have been considered of any major historical consequence; or at least sufficient enough to have been written down for posterity through the ages.
And, it’s true that a common agreement exists between historians who have attempted to verify Biblical happenings – especially those events they cannot 100% prove did NOT happen. In these cases, they (mostly) concur as follows:
You’re on a roll, Stuck, and I must say I do admire your curiosity and persistent willingness to fearlessly question commonly accepted narratives.
I realized something new today and I never mind because the truth is always worth the time spent in discovery.
100% correct. I didn’t include the alternate usage in the article — yes, I referenced Strong’s in my research — because I don’t believe that was the writer’s intent. Why? Because comets weren’t a sign of good news. They were an omen of BAD news …. not something he would want to portray.
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From an article titled, “Comets in ancient culture”;
“Comets have inspired dread, fear, and awe in many different cultures and societies around the world and throughout time. They have been branded with such titles as “the Harbinger of Doom” and “the Menace of the Universe.” They have been regarded both as omens of disaster and messengers of the gods. Why is it that comets are some of the most feared and venerated objects in the night sky? Why did so many cultures cringe at the sight of a comet?”
https://deepimpact.astro.umd.edu/science/comets-cultures.html
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Yes, I am a contrarian. Go on Amazon and search on “Star of Bethlehem” and you’ll get 5 pages of books …. just about all of them taking the literal star point of view.
As such, I stand mostly alone in the Field of Knowledge …. possibly with my head up my ass, according to some. I don’t care. I feel I have good support for my view. It’s not like I’m going to hell because I believe in the star as Shekinah … or, vice versa.
Delighted you “realized something new today”. Really. That’s why I write this stuff, to present alternate views, to challenge conventional beliefs, and to discuss something other than the damned Rona!
RE: comets viewed as bad omens
That would make sense because the Greek wording in Jude was πλανῆται (wandering) ἀστέρες (stars) of which this link claims is (literally) a roving planet or (figuratively) a false/erratic teacher. This would also seemingly correspond with those claiming select terminology in the Bible is meant to be interpreted allegorically.
And, not to change the subject, but do you know what else the Bible often refers to in the negative? Dogs. Yes. Man’s “best friend”. I won’t bother to search out and post chapter and verse here, but I read that one time in a detailed comment on the net and was surprised by that too.
Psalms 22:16 – For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psalms 22:20 – Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
Proverbs 26:11 – As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
Matthew 7:6 – Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Philippians 3:2 – Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
2 Peter 2:22 – But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Luke 16:20-21 KJB… “And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.”
Good dogs.
Matthew 15:26-28 KJB… “But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
Children: Jews
Dogs: not Jews
Christ’s words.
Luke 16:21 ‘dog’
https://biblehub.com/greek/2965.htm
kuón: a dog
Original Word: κύων, κυνός, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kuón
Phonetic Spelling: (koo’-ohn)
Definition: a dog
Usage: a dog, universally despised in the East.
2965 kýōn – literally, a dog, scavenging canine; (figuratively) a spiritual predator who feeds off others.
[A loose dog was disdained in ancient times – viewed as a “mooch pooch” that ran about as a scavenger.]
Matthew 15:26 ‘dog’
https://biblehub.com/greek/2952.htm
kunarion: a little dog
Original Word: κυνάριον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: kunarion
Phonetic Spelling: (koo-nar’-ee-on)
Definition: a little dog
Usage: a little dog, a house dog.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 2952 kynárion – properly, puppy, a diminutive of 2965 /kýōn (“dog”).
The magi were watching/waiting for the ‘star’. Perhaps for generations. I believe they came from a school of ‘astrologers’ started by Joseph in Egypt. (for those on milk – sold into slavery Joseph, not Mary’s husband)
Good article Stuck, I agree it was not a ‘literal star’.
Most excellent observation. I tend to agree. The link below is a pdf titled; “The Magi: Gentile or Jews”. He concludes — after 20 pages!!, lol — that there is no way of knowing for certain, BUT that the evidence leans towards the Magi being Jewish Mystics …not Persian astrologers.
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As an aside, Matthew — or, whoever wrote Matthew — was NOT an eyewitness to the event. Therefore, he absolutely relied on other sources. What were those sources? We don’t know, and most likely will never know. But, if Matthew’s sources were incorrect, then the entire nativity story as he presents it is suspect also. And I just wasted a lot of time writing this article.
.
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file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/1660-12798-1-SM.pdf
Actually “Magi”was just the name of a tribe. It happened to be a priestly tribe from which there were priests that arose to very significant prominence.
Some trace this tribe back to Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees. A kind of wandering, meandering, nomadic tribe. Not all historians would agree though the Magi go back that far, but most agree that they are a very ancient people.
They appear in the time of the Babylonian captivity in the Medo-Persian Empire, which followed the Empire of Babylon. They were still around holding significant positions of influence and power at the time of the birth of our Lord.
What could the “magi” know anything about the birth of Christ?
There were a series of deportations into Babylonian captivity that God brought upon Israel. First, the northern kingdom, and then in Judah, the southern kingdom.
The southern kingdom was taken into Babylon captivity in three waves. Those taken and kept in captivity lasted for 70 years, and then they were sent back to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple.
During the 70 years that they were there, many of them remained in Babylon.
Many of those that remained intermarried. Some of the nobles had Jewish blood.
It was the dispersion of the Jews that brought the message of the Old Testament to that part of the world.
The star of Bethlehem was a miracle. Loved you take on it Stucky
Wow. Thanks! Coming from you, — a pretty darn good Bible scholar (although we don’t always agree on stuff)– I take that as the highest of compliments.
I am almost inspired to plagiarize the piece… it’s been a while since I thought about stealing a TBPer’s idea. LOL… EC used to accuse the whole pack of you of using his ideas.
I know I did. He would have loved this one, I think.
I did.
(And here comes the “what did I love about it” …)
Plagiarize away, girlfriend!! Make it yours!! Send it to your son and say “Hey, look what I wrote!” It’s all ok by me. But, in exchange, some day you must promise to send me a jar of pickled Bunny Nuts.
I miss EC also.
Bunny Lives Mattee.
I no longer can bunny meat or nuts. I can send a live bunny in a box.
Matter.
I will let you know how well the plagiarized post does in my neck of woods.
Jesus healed a man born blind. How does one know a man was born blind? I mean, if you see a blind person, how do you know that person was blind from birth or went blind? Yet the disciples upon first seeing this blind man immediately made that determination. There had to be some physical defect to explain this. This is consistent with the narrative that people familiar with the man were not sure if it was the same man or not. One could easily draw from this that the man had a physical defect where he had no eyes. Jesus put mud on his eyes (area where the eyes would be), told him to go wash, and he came back seeing. Jesus created eyeballs.
What is the point? It is a miracle. A miracle is something that cannot be explained naturally. So why does one read about the star (or anything in the Bible) and demand it be explained naturally. God created the laws of the universe. They bow to Him and not Him to them. Remember Jesus walking on the water? Similarly, God created the stars (and everything else too). If he wants to create a star and and fixed its direction regardless of the Earth’s rotation, can He? He made the sun stand still for a day. He made the sun move backwards. Maybe someone could calculate the G-force associated with the Earth immediately reversing direction…twice? My guess is it would be pretty high. He commands creation what to do…and it obeys. (Man excluded.)
Great observations in this story…very thoughtful and interesting ! And an even greater conclusion – that this could not normally occur. God does what He wills.
Did God describe his footstool as a globe?
Do the Bible ANYWHERE say that the earth is a miracle ball that can contain waterlevel on a ball?
So if ur a Christian YOU DO NOT WORRY ABOUT REVERSALS OF THE CIRCLING GLOBE anf gforces involved in turning the sun around😉☦
His words are eternal and truth for ever, but i guess he just lied about his handy work in the heavens and his footstool?
Or is his words eternal and never change?
I know what i belive.
Do you?
I hear ya. The stars, they are luminous living creatures. Angels… Many verses to back this assertion.
Our sun is a luminous living creature? Huh! And here I thought it was just a big ball of hydrogen and helium.
Does our sun, this luminous living creature, have sentience? Does he/she/xi get up in the morning and say “Damn, it’s hot around here!”?
Asking for my mom.
Is the sun a star? The only thing I know for an absolute certainty any longer is that it is the greater light that rules the day. Other than that, I really have no idea what the sun is. I know what I’ve learned throughout my life. Funny thing about that is; everything I’ve learned throughout my life, outside of the King James Bible, is nothing but horse manure designed to separate me from the knowledge of my Creator, Jesus Christ.
Yes, I’m a “science” denier.
“Holy Crap!!” —- Gen. 73:1 (KJV)
Do you always get so angry about sarcasm…hyperbole to show that an argument is rediculous? Or did you miss that? We are on sthe same side dude. Relax
“It is a miracle. A miracle is something that cannot be explained naturally. So why does one read about the star (or anything in the Bible) and demand it be explained naturally.”
That’s an odd thing to say. You want me to believe it is a literal star (or supernova, comet, whatever) — which are physical things in nature which my senses and intellect can detect — and then wonder why I investigate it further using the very same senses and intellect in order to verify the claim??
I already indicated I might believe in miracles with the section titled “THE MIRACLE: GOD WITH US IN ALL HIS GLORY”.
I don’t want to get into a discussion of miracles except to say, and emphasize, one thing: claiming some act is a miracle effectively ends all discussion. Really. What’s left to say after claiming “It’s a miracle because God can do anything!”? Nothing. Nothing left to discuss, or explore,or even think about.
(From Freelancer)
Thank you for verifying God’s claims for Him .I don’t recall where God said to check His facts but to just believe them. The fact that it is a miracle should be were discussion begins not ends. And the discussion that begins should be worship of Him. Seemed to me the article though very interesting was basically worshipping the author’s intellect and even placing it above God’s word. For me, God said it so I accept it as true. I can’t prove creation is true and I was not there to see Jesus’ miracles but I know they are true because I know Him and He doesn’t lie. Sorry if my comment was upsetting (seems to be some really upset people here.)
You are nuts. I hardly ever re-read my articles after I post them. I never really am satisfied with them. I’m a total lightweight when in comparison to real authors .. professionals who write entire books. So, take your judgemental attitude and stick it where the sun don’t shine.
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It always comes down to this with the majority of Christians when you disagree with them …. some kind of insult or condemnation. Heretic! Ignorant! Blasphemy! Whatever floats your boat. I hope God isn’t as fickle and easily butt-hurt …..
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Nope. You “know” creation/miracles/etc are true because you have ….. faith. That’s always what it boils down to. BTW, not just for believers … but, unbelievers also.
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Seriously?? You haven’t been here very long if you think your mild comments are upsetting me, or anyone. So, no need to apologize. I actually enjoyed reading your comments. Really.
Look, whatever the star was ….. is is PURE MINUTIAE in the grand scheme of things. If you think it bothers me in the least teeny tiny bit if someone disagrees with me, you would be very very wrong. I put my stuff out there, and folks can take it or leave it. I’m not that invested in this kind of stuff to the point where I’ll ever try to force my beliefs down anyone’s throat.
I think it was a supernova. And to try to align all the stories such that they make a single story with no ambiguities is a hiding to nothing.
a supernova over a specific house?
Please entertain me and tell me how that would work!
A star burns for a few billion years, then when the fuel runs out it explodes (if it has enough mass) in just a few minutes, expands and gets brighter for days or even weeks …. and is no longer visible after a few months.
1)– The Magi first see the star rising in the east TWO years prior to coming to Bethlehem. Per the above graph that supernova would no longer have been visible.
—– One gets the impression that the Magi saw “His star” on or about the exact time of Jesus’ birth. OK. BUT, if that supernova was even just a mere one million light years away, then the light from that explosion would take one million years to reach earth. So, what the Magi really saw was something that occurred a million years BEFORE Jesus’ birth. That’s quite a coincidence.
2) The Magi’s star turned off and on during the journey. Nice trick for a supernova.
3) While in Jerusalem they are told by Herod that the child will be born in Bethlehem …. which is just SIX miles away. Then the text says … the star which they had seen in the East went before them …” So, this supervnova, probably millions or billions of light years away, turned back on and moved six miles to settle over the house.
That’s one magical supernova!!
Well, gee, given the New Testament was not written by actual, you know, witnesses, and were written long, long after the events, even making the leap of faith that they were in fact accurate, maybe the fucking details got garbled.
But 1) you think God could not have planned it? And knew it in advance?
2) ever heard of cloud cover?
3) once again, no frigging eye witnesses.
Trying to tie the Bible to physical occurrences and using it as a guide to, effectively, hunt buried treasure is, was, and always has been a fools errand.
I’m sorry, Stucky. Did you say ‘Shekinah’……..or ‘Shock and Awe’?
I’ve been decades in, as well. To refresh my memory, I simply did a search for “what was shock and awe vs. shekinah?”, and the following was the top result (from 3/29/06).
” Saddam Hussein claims that he is Nebuchadnezzer re-incarnated. He rebuilt the palace in Babylon identifying himself on the masonry. In fact, the USA Today’s headline, at the time, stated, “CIA cannot disprove Saddam’s claim to be Nebuchadnezzer”. Nebuchadnezzer in the Bible was invaded by the Moabites. The “Shock and Awe” used the MOAB or Mother Of All Bombs. Is this prophecy being fulfilled or ritual being enacted?”
https://thefreemanperspective.blogspot.com/2006/03/program-to-chaos.html#:~:text=Shock%20and%20Awe%20is%20a%20play%20on%20the,Saddam%20Hussein%20claims%20that%20he%20is%20Nebuchadnezzer%20re-incarnated.
FWIW: I think it was ‘ritual being enacted’ just as the masking ritual of today……
So, this morning I wake up thinking about the whole ‘comets as bad omens’ thing. And ‘Apophis’:
“Apophis (also known as Apep) is the Great Serpent, enemy of the sun god Ra, in ancient Egyptian religion. The sun was Ra’s great barge which sailed through the sky from dawn to dusk and then descended into the underworld. As it navigated through the darkness of night, it was attacked by Apophis who sought to kill Ra and prevent sunrise.”
https://www.ancient.eu/Apophis/
Normally, I would point out the commercial section (13 to 18:45) by time stamp for the viewer to skip, but in this case, at 13:05 the narrator states exactly what you said about the ‘bad omens’.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6ujHaHZNks&feature=emb_logo
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—–=== when gods once again comingle with men
Who is skekinah?
https://youtu.be/NeXHsmlDHN8
The doofus dummy above takes this picture from the Sistine Chapel …
… and says God has his arm around a naked redhead … which is “God’s girlfriend” … whose name is Isis … but the Jews call her Shekinah. hahahahaha
He is one of those ignoramuses who say the KJV is the only legitimate bible …. then he wrote The King James Code which supposedly has all these hidden messages, which, of course, only HE can decipher. Just send $19.95 plus shipping and handling, thank you very much.
He also has a video preaching against the Satanic evils of rock music. So 1950’s!!
That was the most ignorant non-sensical video I’ve seen in a long time.
If that’s where you get your Biblical knowledge from GCP, well … that explains a lot.
“He is one of those ignoramuses who say the KJV is the only legitimate bible…”
Much like me… 😁
I’ve learned a great deal from Mike Hoggard. He too could learn a great deal from me; he fails to rightly divide the word of truth and thus misses so much God has done for us. I’ve written him to no avail. It is what it is…
Bingo!! And don’t think for one moment that you’re fooling anyone when you post as “King James” 🙂
I’ve never once posted using the moniker King James. I’m not trying to fool anyone.
Anonymous has happened two or three times and I’ve always gone back and edited the post adding my name, gcp. You can take that to the bank.
I believe you gcp… I don’t think you post as alternate identities like some people around here.
…
you failed to address this comment from gcp and now that I’m following the banter here, well, I’m hoping you might discuss whom around here other than Mike Hoggard could learn from gcp…
Asking for a friend.
Greetings, GCP….
In that short clip you posted, Hoggard does come off as a bit of a doofus, but the message he touches on is valid, imo anyway.
The hermaphrodite god baphomet, (satan) is where this idea of a ‘feminine’ aspect of god seems to originate………and the painting in the Sistine Chapel is mind boggling as to the hidden meanings or messages it contains.
What Stucky scoffs at, I see as a depiction of the Watchers intermingling their seed with mankind, and bringing ‘knowledge’ to man….
“That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” Gen 6:2
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—-===
Fascinating stuff…..
He’s a very funny guy, I’ve met him on a few occasions. Stucky scoffs at that which he refuses to consider; a defense mechanism. He has knowledge but little understanding; quite unlike you sir ordo. You’re willing to go where most men fear to tread. It’s a hell of a journey (literally) but what one returns with is the enemies playbook (as “illuminated” by the KJB) and with it the ability to stand up to any wind of doctrine the blowhards want to blow.
Grace and peace friend. May the new year be less stressful than this one about to pass. Nevertheless…
Philippians 3:13-14 KJB… “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”
…keep pressing on!
Ted
You’re a lousy psychologist. Your cut-and-paste standard bible thumping adds nothing to any religious discussion. So, go ahead, and paste some more irrelevant verses, ya maroon.
No need. You keep making my points for me.
Meanwhile, you have admitted that you don’t even know if our sun is a star.
You are the “Earnest Angley” of TBP.
I have, with reason. What’s the point of repeating what I’ve already claimed? (That would be a rhetorical question.) I know what “they” tell me the sun is. I know many of “them” worship the sun. I am aware of its occult significance. I also know what the KJB says about it. I personally believe the sun is a far smaller object, much closer to the earth than most imagine. I also believe it revolves around us, not vise versa. An interesting person might ask, “why do you believe such an unusual thing, gcp?” Seems all you can do is try to make fun of me. Well, enjoy!
Seriously, if this is the base level of conversation you’re capable of, I’m out. Thought you and I were making some progress. Looks like I was wrong. Go on and bloviate your day away… 🥱 Some of us still need to earn a living.
We were. Then you went and said about me, “He has knowledge but little understanding;” and some psychobabble about defense mechanisms. You think I’m gonna let that insult slide?
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How you have any credibility left after that is beyond me.
It wasn’t an insult.
I’m here thinking you are the only one around here capable of starting a real shitflinging episode and it seems like you are doing your bestest to incite one right here over Biblical Words.
Perhaps you would address my comment to Ordie above regarding the days of Noah?
Do you know what I even scoff at? He calls that woman “God’s girlfriend!!” — and bases his theology on a friggen painting by Mikey Angelo, God only knows what the heck he was thinking, instead of the bible. You think that’s interesting? I think it borders on insanity.
When you die, and should you meet the Big Guy, ask Him, “Where’s your girlfriend?”. See how that goes. You might be sent to meet Beelzebub the very next moment. ha!
===========
You have a wild imagination.
You know what concept most confounds me? The Marriage Supper/Bride of Christ.
Why?
Haha…I do have a wild imagination! Probably the result of too many years of 101 Turkey and peyote, lol.
I always tend to butcher what I intend to say when I try to write it down, unlike some of you who do it like putting one foot in front of the other…..
“Do you know what I even scoff at? He calls that woman “God’s girlfriend!!” — and bases his theology on a friggen painting by Mikey Angelo,”
Sure I do…..I thought he came across as a bit of a doofus as well. But the idea that the art work at the Sistine Chapel is the basis of his theology is as far off as saying it is just “a friggen painting”…..
“When you die, and should you meet the Big Guy,…” (Haha, that might be my whole problem; thinkin I’m almost there)
‘EVERY knee shall bow’, so the meeting’s a guarantee for all of us.
I meant no insult to you, but rather to the flippant dismissal of the underlying theologies…
I read a comment from Articles of Con. where he mentioned giving thought to ‘things’ while working. I’ve worked out under the sun most of my life; loved the menial shovel work for hours on end, pondering ‘things’……
“Just to be clear: We’re not pointing out these differences in translation to pick nits with the accuracy of the Bible. Reading “sons of Israel” in Deuteronomy 32:8 doesn’t change the Bible’s overall message of sin and salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. What we get with the correct reading, “sons of God,” is a fuller understanding of the depth and intensity of the supernatural war going on around us.”
“The point here is that much of what’s in the Bible has a deeper meaning than we’ve been taught because the consensus view of Scripture by most Christian theologians since the time of Augustine in the fifth century AD is that the entities called “gods” were imaginary. That happens not to be the case, and many things in Scripture, such as the Feast of Tabernacles, make more sense—or only make sense—when we understand that God meant what He said when He called these beings “gods.””
https://www.skywatchtv.com/2020/12/29/the-messenger-part-18-more-on-the-messenger-apophis-and-the-terrible-gods-coming-with-it/
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—–====
Herr Ordo! WE are ok! I did NOT take anything you said as an insult. We’re just bantering here in good fun.
I think that gay doofus comment about “God’s girlfriend” being a naked redhead is insulting. Yet, GCP, the copy&paste bible expert isn’t? Unreal.
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Nothing wrong, ever, with digging deeper.
But, if by “deeper meaning” one really means “hidden meaning”, well, I struggle with that. Like all those hidden messages in the Da Vinci Code movies. I simply refuse to believe that God communicates in secret messages and codes … that apparently take thousands of years to find ..and then only by specially gifted people.
““The unfolding of Thy words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple” —- Psalm 119:13
— What would God’s motivation be to hide things in the Bible that most of us wouldn’t be able to find?
— does it make sense for God to hide his message of redemption, when there are 66 books which reveal His message?
The Bible is not a word-search puzzle.
[Yet, GCP, the copy&paste bible expert isn’t? Unreal.]
I copy/paste a bunch, myself. I see eye to eye with GCP concerning the central point of salvation: ‘by Grace through faith’. As far as ‘expert’, I believe he is an ardent student of the Word, (which is all any can lay claim to be, imho), who presents a scriptural defense of what he posits. I have a great deal of respect for GCP, fwiw.
[But, if by “deeper meaning” one really means “hidden meaning”, well, I struggle with that.]
Me too. But I have also struggled with a personal ‘awakening’ for thirty years+
[— What would God’s motivation be to hide things in the Bible that most of us wouldn’t be able to find?]
Or, his motive to….. “save alive nothing that breatheth:
But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.” Deut. 20
Made no sense to me, what little children could possibly have done to deserve annihilation from a ‘loving god’ ?
What DOES make sense to me, and what mainstream churches view as heretical, is a genetic intrusion of mankind…
[— does it make sense for God to hide his message of redemption, when there are 66 books which reveal His message?]
No more ‘sense’ than it makes for God to allow the tragic deaths of millions of unborn children, in a nation claiming to lay trust in Him…..
It does start making sense if I consider what some scholars teach about the Watchers, and how rule over the nations was given to them….Deut. 32:8
That will sound batchitt crazy to ya….lol
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <—-====
And this is also a big part of the “as it was in the days of Noah” business in the Revelation, right?
I’m not aware of any reference to “the days of Noah” in Revelation. Jesus said;
“As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all”
We know from Genesis that humanity became so evil that God regretted creating mankind, and so destroyed all but 8 souls.
And that’s what people focus on today … how EVIL mankind was. And then they transpose those days to the current age, and conclude we have the same Evil,– actually, worse — so, another judgement is coming. Because of evil in the land.
But, that’s NOT Jesus’ focus. He says NOTHING about evil. His point is plain;
— people are going about living normal lives; eating, drinking, and getting married …. while being totally oblivious to the impending disaster … the judgment of God via a flood
— Likewise, his only point was that mankind would once again be unaware that the judgment of God was coming … but, this time via His return
So my feeling as if it is imminent probably negates its possibility. Sigh.
Marriage suppers are often tense and pretentious affairs and the bride a nervous wreck.
The only legitimate Bible is in Koine. If you really want to understand, you need to learn Koine. Good luck with that.
Otherwise, you are relying on 1) the skill of the translator, 2) the translator not having biases, and 3) the translator not out and out lying.
2 + 3 are almost 100% certain to have happened.
Not to mention of course all the books/writings that were left out because of #2, especially.
More was left out than was put in. Imagine that. Wonder which parts were accurate?
“ Why did some books make the cut and not others? Combs cites three criteria used by early church leaders. The first was authorship, whether it was believed to have been written by an apostle, by Paul or by someone close to them. Mark, for example, wasn’t an apostle, but was an interpreter for Peter. The second criterium was antiquity, with older texts taking priority over newer ones. And the third was orthodoxy, or how well the text conformed with current Christian teaching.”
So, what people hang their hat on is in serious dispute. Bias, down right manipulation, mis-translation, errors in choosing the correct text, etc. are 100% in play in any version of the New Testament you care to name.
Read the originals in Koine, and include the ones that were left out. Otherwise you are simply buying into whatever those in charge were peddling. And hoping they were honest and of good judgement.
I know what I’ve bought into.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJB… “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
2 Peter 1:19-21 KJB… “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
Psalm 12:6-7 KJB… “The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”
From Paul to Peter to David, God inspired every word written. Those words are preserved for any and all English speaking people in the King James Bible. No need to speak Greek or Hebrew; language is not a barrier to understanding. The occurrence of “tongues” in Acts chapter two is a reversal of that which occurred in Genesis eleven and, for me, a Bible believer, demonstrates the fact. Language is a God construct and as such, His word is not bound to one or another.
GCP – how do you know you are reading an accurate translation? How do you know that the Gospels left out were not the real ones? Why do you accept that the ones who made the decision as to what to leave in and what to leave out did so unbiasedly?
Why have you not learned Koine so you can read and decide for yourself? You have had many years to do so, and have decided not to do that.
Instead, you quote a translation as justification. A translation you cannot verify.
Too funny.
“GCP – how do you know you are reading an accurate translation?”
It has proven itself to me, beyond my ability to doubt, over and over again, through a great deal of study. My meager intellect cannot find fault in it, no matter the effort. Glad I can provide a laugh now and again. This oughta kill ya… I believe I hold Gods perfectly preserved Word in my hand; right now, I’m thumpin’ it as I type! I believe it is perfect and without error; that perfection exists in this world in the form of that one book and when my imperfect mind approaches it, worldly foundations crumble and disintegrate. I believe it is right and I am wrong. It alone is my final authority and arbiter of Truth. I believe other books that claim to be Holy are perversions designed to lead men astray.
John 1:1-3, 14 (KJB)… In the beginning was the WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
I think it absurd for any to think that the God who “spoke” (you know, as in Words, vocal sounds, physical vibrations) the universe into existence would somehow find it difficult to write a book (perfectly complete in it’s entirety, nothing extra, nothing missing) by His Spirit in man (meaning, man isn’t the author of it, he just held the pen); and put it in any language He wanted to. I believe it impossible for a perfect God not to have given His creation a perfect instruction manual in many languages. I believe people who think they’ve found errors just haven’t dug deeply enough; comparing scripture with scripture.
Ain’t that just a riot… 🙂 But, that’s what I believe. Why do you believe the only legitimate Bible is in Koine? Are you fluent?
Amen. You’ve forgotten more than GCP ever learned.
For example, in his reply to you he writes — “language is not a barrier to understanding. “.
HAVE YOU READ ANYTHING MORE IDIOTIC IN YOUR LIFE?? Seriously, have you?
His posts should come with a warning; “You will be dumber after reading this.”
Stuck – I know people believe. Up to them. But to quote Bible and turn a blind eye to the history of the translations, the biases therein, and then to quote sections of the Bible saying he, what we are saying is true and is divinely inspired – like they would say anything else – really is astonishing.
I generally do not read what he writes. Language is not a barrier to understanding? Yep, that is world class stupid right there.
Stucky … I just finished watching Chuck Missler’s … ‘Christmas Story’ (Part 2) on youtube. Mr. Missler arrived at the same conclusion as yourself. This article of yours was beautifully written and explained. One of your finest contributions.
Very kind of you, motley.
I didn’t read/listen to any Chuck Missler stuff, but he sounds like a GENIUS!! lol
I just spent the past hour or so, looking up and listening to Part 1. It has been quite a while since listening to them both before.
Always, from the time I was a child goin to sunday skool, I have believed the ‘author’ of the different books of the Bible was the Holy Spirit working through men, whether Paul of Moses…..I have always loved the King James Version primarily for the olde english, but believe the inspiration of the ‘author’ provides for an inerrant explanation of His-tory
At 25:09, (beginning at 23) “This is the genealogy of Jesus Christ as found in Matthew 1: 1-11. But not in English….in Greek, ‘the most precise language on earth’.
And, just to complete Missler’s info on this subject, Part II:
Missler died in 2018, and was a lot more feeble than he appears in these videos, so I’m not sure when he actually recorded them. The man has quite a bio….and the Koinonia House he established has volumes of recordings to be found…fwiw.
I set the playback speed at 1.5, and slightly distracted multi taskin, but I believe he put the actual day of Christ’s birth around Sept. 20 in the early part of the first video….
annuit coeptis novus ordo seclorum <——====
It was the largest object in Close encounters of the third kind. The same one that Moses went that Richard Driefess boarded and Moses came out of.
Hence, all the locals knew something was up when Daddy parked his vessel in our atmosphere and Gabriel let out the exchange of rate between gravity and the law of thermal expansion, duh.
Merry Christmas Stucky, maybe you could imply that Rudolph the Reindeer was actually code for Gabriel the archangel, which is actually code for the time continuum before Jesus Christ’s time continuum, and Santas sleigh is actually a scythe from another world with a calliope that is so scary, that my eyes are shut so tight not to look at the sled as it passes because their are sentient beings in the light that look for a way into our consciousness, in order to strip our souls from the root of squared yin and yang.
Maybe Christmas hasn’t actually happened, though is about to , and we are in for a real treat, if we only allow for the possibility that Jesus Christ is real, and not watered down embodiment of our thought waves inside out and rolled up like a scroll at the beginning of algebra II class.
What importance in the sacrifice of a small tree, every year, the day of someones birth?
What importance in the sacrificed tree being decorated with lights and shiny stuff?
What importance in the sacrificed tree being placed within our family space?
and our giving underneath? Does the Lord know exactly what and who, we wrestle with every second of every day? Do you have room in your vernacula any outcome that is good and allows for Miracles to occur,(as long as it is Jesus Christ that we thank as if awaiting the circuit to be completed?) relative to (our long endeavor with righteousness?)
If you saw a large spaceship flying in our atmosphere full of lights and colors and sounds not ever heard nor imagined do you think you would crack open on the spot and die? (as long as it was not a bored wood of holly empire attempt at blimp filled with death at some empty field where a bunch of people followed an empty “alert ” on their phones that bypassed protocol, you know, and evacuate to such and such where you will be buried in a pit with lime kind of shenanigans predictably, what is that dark shadow? that we must coexist without mercy?)
Yeah, uh huh, if you were caught outside when the real deal synapsed throughout our calligraphy of consciousness, and your eyes were not shut tight against XISXISXIS, and there was a fragment of a reflective surface on the ground where you were standing, about to receive the light of the vessel nearing your parcel, the “beings” in the light can refract from metallic surfaces and intrigue within look,, and go in peace brother.
Could we reformulate Jesus Christ is a little bit nearer than last Christmas? and heading our way on time and under budget, as if rapture were the next heartbeat after our last ourbeat where jesuschrist comes out of our chest cavity without missing a beat to arrange for our continuity with eternity, as he is the next heartbeat, and so on, until we accolade our integrity from despair.
For the unbelieving this is where the eagle comes out of our chest and flaps it’s newfound wings as our heart explodes from our chest of treasury, (full withdraw) said to the bank teller, and without missing the next beat of our hearts matriculated into a Raptor, with your last breath could you utter for the eagle to consume our eyes so that we may rise up within our creators totality and ride with him (yes him).
Donald J. Trump is our President and everything we see not with him as our President is a direct attack on our country, however softly worded. If the power and or communications goes out, please block all roads and inspect all freight, especially “shipping containers ” for platoons of mens disciplined and without mercies.
Since you took time and effort to write a lengthy post, I shall respond …
“WHAT THE HECK DID I JUST READ??”
A one or two sentence summary will be greatly appreciated.
I think it is in Morque from Orquian.
I do agree that just because something is only mentioned in one gospel or a there is a lack of other outside historical evidence isn’t proof something didn’t occur. Different writer’s different perspectives and purposes all for the same event.
The thing with signs from God is not everyone always sees them. Not everyone is necessarily capable or meant to see them.
Those who need to will.
Interesting thing about the indwelt glory of God.
As His believers/followers we are temples of the Holy Spirit but unfortunately for most or all of us we allow our flesh to greatly limit or block what others see of Him on our outside.
check this out for some proof that dec. 25th is Jesus birthday.
Y-A-W-N. He has no proof at all.
He gives three incredibly weak “proofs” The second proof involves knowing the exact date when the Archangel Gabriel appeared to Elizabeth, takes into account her forty weeks of gestation, comes up with an exact date for John the Baptist’s birthday, adds 6 months to it, and comes up with Dec. 25th!!!
Whatever. He then resorts back to the old standard … Catholic tradition.
“Sacred Tradition also confirms December 25 as the birthday of the Son of God. The source of this ancient tradition is the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. Now ask yourself: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary ever forget the birth of her Son Jesus Christ …”
Whatever.
He starts his presentation with this;
You see what is happening here? He already has a conclusion (Jesus was born on Dec. 25th) and only then looks for “proofs”. In other words, the Catholic Church says this is true … ok, I better find the proofs.
.
You don’t have to listen for half an hour. The text is here ….
Fascinating article with a lot of food for thought..I enjoyed reading it. Thanks!
Hopefully soon the Orange Zionist Jesus, Stucky and the Pat Robertson crew will be raptured up into the clouds above Jerusalem to have a BBQ and beer with Jesus while Kushner and Bibbi and the Ayatollahs perish in the armageddon fires below. Will be so hilarious!!!
Fact!
Hopefully, not.
First, I do not want to anywhere where Pat Robertson is. Ever.
Second, there is no rapture. Factual!!
Millions of dispensationalists say you are stupid and doomed! Fact!
Well now You sure showed him…. such a burn /s
I don’t have a problem with the idea that the magi were astrologers. It doesn’t imply acceptance of astrology any more than Christ dining with prostitutes implies an acceptance of prostitution. Christ dining with corrupt tax collectors doesn’t imply acceptance of democrat tax policy. God wanted to get the attention of these men and did so dramatically. He does what it takes to reach people where they are and invite them to a changed new life in him.
Good stuff sir! Oh, and I agree with you – God’s presence is the answer.
Thank you for this….going to send to my sister who was telling me about the planets converging and it being just like the star of Bethlehem, to which I said, NO nothing like the star of Bethlehem, that was supernatural at the birth of Christ. My son also sent me a couple of videos by Chuck Missler called The Christmas Story parts 1 and then part 2………..very interesting stuff there if you care to go and look it up. It helps to look to the One who is above all the craziness going on in the world today and also that He told us beforehand what was to come………….I guess I just never pictured it to look like this present hell…..but also He can’t be far off to putting the smack down and glad I am not going to be here when that happens………blessings all