This photo of one of the sailors captured (and, quickly released) by Iran a few weeks ago was just released.
You who have fathers or grandfathers who fought in WWII, can you imagine them crying so soon after being captured, especially considering the easy, almost luxurious, conditions in which this sailor was being held? I can’t.
Question: What do you think of this soldier?
“This guy – rather than being a wimp – might well have been the MOST bad-ass among those two boat crews, and got a faceful of CN for his defiance.”
While this might be the case, if the preceding passage were true-
“… the Iranian Revolutionary Guard goons who’d violated maritime law by boarding elements of a foreign navy in peaceful transit on the high seas (i.e., far beyond the lawful territorial waters of the Iranian “Republic”).”
-he had the duty and the obligation to defend his vessel and fellow crewmen- as they all did- from being boarded and seized. No shots were fired. Ipso facto, he failed to do his duty.
Writes hardscrabble farmer: “-he had the duty and the obligation to defend his vessel and fellow crewmen- as they all did- from being boarded and seized. No shots were fired. Ipso facto, he failed to do his duty.”
We’re dealing with an era in which such boats carry communications equipment with which the crews are in uninterrupted contact with “higher” and have NO AUTONOMY whatsoever.
Not even a Nelsonian spyglass-held-to-the-eyepatch pretense of an excuse is possible. If the order comes down to “peacefully surrender” in the face of foreign firepower (no matter how trivial that firepower MIGHT have seemed in the videos RELEASED BY THE ENEMY to the public for propaganda purposes), the sailors in command of those boats were obliged by oath to obey.
There are differences between soldiers (yeah, I know that they were Navy, not Army) and warriors, chief among them the fact that military personnel comport themselves in obedience to orders, not as their personal concepts of “honor” and “glory” might dispose them to do.
For all that, said sailor might not have been leaking tears owing to having been Mace’d but rather in frustration and rage at his chain-of-command.
Tell me that Obozo et alia haven’t treated the military forces of our republic in ways that would justify a strong man weeping.
I’d be crying too, if I was cruising along in one of those bad ass patrol boats with a .50 cal mounted on the stern, and ended up surrendering to some third worlders in a couple of wellcrafts.
Tucci78, I thought your response was the most cogent- I was just pointing out that if they were under attack in international waters they should have responded first rather than calling back to D.C. to see if they should just hand everything over to what amounts to pirates on the high seas.
Judging by the equipment I saw on the video, they were a) snooping on Iran and judging by their behavior they were b) in Iranian waters and c) not a cohesive military unit willing to resist a boarding.
Of course I wasn’t there, that’s just my gut feeling. Judging by the photos of their little picnic they seemed to be reveling in their “captivity” rather than doing what is required- absent a direct communique from the CIC- and that is to resist.
The modern American military, with a few exceptions, is almost completely a political tool designed to promote social policy at home. Everywhere it goes it creates more problems, loses more ground, destabilizes more regions and fails to even defend itself unless specifically directed by beltway insiders 6,000 miles away. We should simply adjust to the new reality- men in fake pregnancy suits and high heels, 5 foot tall women Rangers who can’t carry their own equipment, etc, etc.
Did you see the video of the fainting AF General yesterday?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jGs4BY2cJw
Notice the reaction of the two women. Together they cannot help a single male from the podium but cede the job to other male counterparts. Would you want them helping out under fire? Is this an example of them doing the same job men do, just as well? The one has more fruit salad on her uniform than Chesty Puller and she can barely maintain control of her clipboard.
Wow, I am shocked by some of the venom in these comments.
I know America has produced a lot of incredibly brave men, much more courageous than I can ever imagine myself being. I have never served, but I respect any person who has.
I agree with one of the first people to comment. My father fought at Anzio. it is literally impossible to imagine him sobbing under these circumstances. Some writers have said they were not there so they do not want to judge. Fair enough. But as far as we know nobody was killed or injured, nobody was mistreated by the Iranians. If that is the case, this man is a gutless coward who should be expelled from the Navy immediately. He is also, of course, a typical modern American man. With Glenn Beck, Jimmy Swaggart John Boehner and millions of others giving the seal of approval on public blubbering, why shouldn’t he have a good cry? Maybe some kind feminist will take pity on him and give him some cookie. Ha!
Modern American Man
” I have never served, but I respect any person who has.”
That’s not logical. Some people serve for reasons other than devotion to duty and country, some who serve are gutless, cowardly and lazy. Respect goes to those who earn it, not anyone who wears a particular uniform.
We don’t know the particulars, but we do know what the narrative says and we have the photographic and video evidence to help us discern the rest.
Please do not try and tell me that uniformed military do not have the right to defend themselves against military aggression without express approval from political operatives while on duty. That is their primary purpose. Our political class has been demonizing the Iranians since I was in high school. Either they are a threat or they are not. The boats were either in International waters or they were not. Either our sailors were armed and trained or they were not. Either they have a duty or they do not.
You do the math.
Asserts hardscrabble farmer: “Please do not try and tell me that uniformed military do not have the right to defend themselves against military aggression without express approval from political operatives while on duty. That is their primary purpose.”
Whether you like having anyone tell you or not, you’re in error. Serving members of the military – as agents of government in our republic – have as their “primary purpose” the job of breaking things and killing people AS ORDERED by their superiors. Their individual initiative is circumscribed sharply by laws and regulations, said regulations instantiated in policies and the ever-more-politicized “rules of engagement” under which these armed servitors of the state have writhed from time out of memory.
This is not to say that such restrictions are unwarranted. Even the myrmidons of our great and noble republic have been known, from time to time, to stumble into atrocity as well as more petty violations of the laws of land and naval warfare. Our Constitution dictates that the civil government has (and must keep) control of the military, and this is a decidedly GOOD thing even when the civil government is in the hands of unarguable traitors and criminals such as make up the Obozo administration.
The extents to which serving officers and enlisted men of the federal armed forces “defend themselves agqinst military aggression” depend entirely on the nature of the ORDERS under which they’re operating. If they’re ordered to stand down and surrender by that infestation of assfucking rodents squealing and swarming around our Indonesian-in-Chief, that’s what they’re obliged by their oaths of service to do.
Anything other than such would constitute mutiny. Would you prefer that?
The solution is not to berate the poor bastards on the shitty end of the stick, but rather to address those holding the OTHER end thereof.
I keep in mind that among the other parcels of land held by the federal government beyond the Rockies, there’s also Alcatraz Island, with its buildings perfectly suited to service as the permanent prison of the whole Obozo Administration, including those federal judges and Supreme Court justices appointed by Michelle’s Metrosexual Mulatto Mamzer.
And think of the tourist trade as millions of Americans come to San Francisco bay to chum the sharks in the waters surrounding.
“I’m sure Bernie can post you as his official State Lacrimation Czar.” —— I_S
I’ll take it! Yes, once again, I will serve my country if asked. ‘Murikan life will never be the same again.
Hey, I think this was the FIRST time in all these YEARS that we ever got into each others faces. It was interesting, but not as much fun as I thought it would be.
http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/854/
As signatories of the Hague and Geneva Convention the US military is legally bound to observe the protocols established by these treaties. All uniformed military personnel are taught and trained to observe these restrictions and rights as combatants. Once captured they are under equal restrictions and command as non-combatants.
If they were in International waters as claimed they had every right to resist capture. If they were to observe their rights to self defense against a combatant or any other act of piracy (crime on the high seas) they would not be culpable regardless of the order given.
Unlawful orders MUST NOT BE OBEYED regardless of who may issue them, even the CIC.
I stand by my analysis based on what we know thus far.
Hey Stuck, I kicked your ass once while you were masquerading as PhD in Geology. You don’t generally go full retard unless you’re deliberately stirring shit or emotionally invested.
I_S
Hey, if Billy decides to weigh in, and if he also says I’m full of shit, then I will be forced to reconsider my extremely logical position … cuz when two of the smartest guys say I’m wrong, I just MIGHT be wrong.
God, I hate admitting that but I’m filled with the HoleeGhost today.
You are your own dichotomy Stuck!
I’d like to hear from some guys on the front lines what POTUS says now. Next time are they to fight, run or surrender?
For the record, I was mean to sweet Brent while advising him that he was wrong to assume Stucky is not a veteran.
Gryff, your a cool dude. I wish my dick was that long. I’d be King Dong and women would crawl to me! Of course, I’d be busy taming the sexy mulatta.
We may never know why a person cries; anger, embarrassment fear, frustration, pain…
One thing we can say, Americans will not let their boys cry and not react. Fuck that, those Iranians will pay. Motherfuckers.
Okay, here’s my take on this guy. My position might actually contradict itself, so be prepared for that… it is what it is. I am nothing if not a walking mass of contradictions.
– First take?
What a fuckin’ pussy.
I can’t remember my father EVER crying. Dude was a combat photographer during the Korean War, so he saw more than his share of shit.
I ain’t saying I’ve never had a meltdown, but for fuck’s sake you do that shit when nobody else is around. It’s fucking unseemly, unmanly and frankly, nobody wants to see that shit.
I had an FNG once. Dude was literally brand fuckin’ new. The day after we get him, his father dies of a massive heart attack. He came to me in private and had a meltdown right there – I am not without compassion. We’re hard-wired to love our parents. Thing is, when he was done and we got him cleaned up, he acted like he should have around everyone else – save your tears for in private.
When I got the word that my own daddy died not long ago, I was driving on I-75 north with the family. Not one tear, though it would have probably been forgiven. You’re a man – act like one. Have to be a rock for the others, have to be able to think clearly – people are relying on you for fuck’s sake. Some weeks later when I was alone, I had my time of mourning. And that was that.
– Second Take.
After reflection, I cannot know what another guys personal breaking point is. My own capacity to endure pain and hardship is great. Others, maybe not so much. I don’t know that dude, but he’s representing the Republic in uniform. And, while I stand with my brother paratrooper Hardscrabble on the issue of “Once you get past our technology, which is formidable, our guys won’t last 10 minutes”, I still maintain that if you’re gonna have a meltdown, then you do that shit when you are in private.
Sack up, son. I don’t much care if you bawl your eyes out – that’s on you, not me. But nobody wants to see that shit, especially me.
You know how you’re not supposed to chew someone’s ass or discipline someone else in public? Same thing. Total morale crusher. Plus, it gives our enemies great psychological ammo to use against us as well as being used as a recruiting tool:
“Look at these pussy Americans! THESE are the guys everyone is in fear of?!? LMAO!!!”
Heraclitus was right – some dudes shouldn’t even be there.
This “sailor” appears to be one of Those Guys. Go home, boy.
Speaking of “sailors”, you guys heard of John Paul Jones, right?
He entered the Navy at the ripe old age of 13.
If memory serves, during one battle he was sent below-decks to get more primers for the cannons. While on the way, a gun captain was struck full in the face by a cannon-ball and beheaded. Both the headless body of the gun captain and 13 year old John Paul Jones went tumbling down the stairs.
13 year old Jones comes back up alone and covered in blood.
The Captain, seeing the blood, asked Jones if any of it was his and if he was okay.
When Jones answered that he was okay, the Captain asked “Then where are the primers?”….
Used to be, we produced men like that. I’m sure some are still produced, here and there, but they are outliers. Guys who are loyal, loving fathers and family members, productive members of society – but would happily eviscerate you if you threatened them or their families – then go back to being loyal, loving family members and productive, law abiding citizens…
If you’re going to go through the trouble to train a guy, give him those beautiful engines of destruction and send him on Real World missions, then you have to make sure they are of the proper temperament.
This guy ain’t one of them.
Crying soldiers and fainting generals. Obamanation be a bunch a bad muthafuckas.
Very sensible analysis, Billy. Thanks.
As far as I’m concerned, even if they were told to stand down, as the dune coons paddled up in their rowboats: I think that soldier crying in the photo should have been given a white flag to use as a hanky the wipe his tears and his crewmates white flags to use as napkins after their snacks. Fucking embarrassing. But at least John Kerry thanked the Iranians afterwards. So that was good. We can all now sleep well knowing we have peace on earth.
Hey Stucky,
Good news. I do live within a day’s drive of that overpriced little brick bungalow of yours in north Jersey. You can get my full Christian name from Admin, google me to find out where I live, drive down here and watch my dog rip your nuts off when you try to gouge my eyes out. You be funny!
Stucky – PLEASE – take me with you to Gryffn’s house. Admin has my Christian name too. I love dogs.
Now – back to the subject at hand:
http://www.allenbwest.com/2016/01/folks-heres-what-i-find-very-odd-about-what-happened-with-iran-and-our-navy-yesterday/
https://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2016/01/13/bracken-on-iran/
This whole deal was not right. Still isn’t….
Unforgivable cites an opinion piece by Lt. Col. Allen West (dated 13 January) from which I extract:
“The officer in charge should have reported contact, verified that they were not friendly, and taken action to defend his position, his boats. That means warning shots should have been fired, if not heeded, and then the full power of these assault boats levied against the enemy watercraft — with situation reports being sent to higher command. We need to know why exactly those actions were not taken — and if the young officer in charge was told to not take any action. And if so, by whom.”
Given that the officer commanding these two riverine assault boats almost certainly had communications with “higher” AND was every bit as much aware of the Code of Conduct for members of the United States Armed Forces recapitulated by Col. West (see link above), IT IS ALMOST CERTAIN THAT HE WAS *ORDERED* TO SURRENDER by officers higher on the chain of command.
What else could relieve him of the responsibility to discharge his duty as defined in said Code of Conduct?
Tears of despair and rage, exploited by the enemy in order to sell “wimp” among the fucktards.
Tucci – the sailors were sold out by there superiors in a treasonous manner. As a soldier, this would be very hard to swallow. I’d probably cry too. For my nation. For the blood spilled by past patriots. And, for my own shame and never wanting to look at myself in the mirror again. The whole deal was a sad affair. No doubt…
I agree with everyone! He should have, or should not have, done some/nothing, but only if he was or was not ordered to do so to or with the Iranians, keeping in mind, as always, that the safety and security of the environment is our primary mission A#1 all day long.
I could be worked up about this indignity, too. It is insulting and humiliating for him and us. But it’s also not that important if you think about it as symptomatic of this nation’s slow, painful fall. I’m sure a couple thousand years ago when the town crier told Romans how some jerkoff Goths humiliated a couple Roman centurions whose military contractor crew of Gauls and Numidians ran off and abandoned them and left them to be beaten and raped, they got pissed, too. “How dare those dirt-worshippers take on the awesome might of Rome!” It’s just one more painful sign of the change in our status. In retrospect, folks will probably add the Iranian Incident to a long litany of failures marking the descent of the US into mediocrity and turmoil.
Considering the DOD just announced the climate is the most important issue for the military and that leaders at every level will include climate change in all aspects of military planning, it’s no surprise that our “war”ships are being hijacked by Iranians piloting tubtoys in the Gulf. They could take us hostage just threatening to tip a bottle of 40-weight into the water. “Hands up, Yankees, or we’ll shoot the entire ocean!”
Can I play as a veteran with 140 combat missions in Vietnam and a combat tour in El Salvador?
War is ugly, violent and a giant mind fuck. I’ve been shot at dozens of times in Vietnam and brought home many a battle-damaged aircraft. After a while, you start to wonder if today’s the day you get the “Golden BB” (ground fire that kills you). Then you get back in the plane for another mission. In less than a month in El Salvador, a leaflet in my driveway signed by the FMLN stated in Spanish, “No Yankee advisor will leave El Salvador alive.” Shit, now they not only know who I am, but where I live. Only 11 months to go. And I didn’t move.
I take no position on Stucky’s question. There is no correct answer, both pro and con on this sailor’s behavior. Most of the comments posted so far are pretty well thought out. Maybe I missed it, but I haven’t yet seen this observation. The sailor will have to live with it for the rest of his life.
Maybe I missed it in someone’s comment, but has anyone suggested that these guys were set up and then ordered to stand down so our gubermint can do a “legit” prisoner swap with Iran, in the name of improved foreign relations?
Maybe give us a pretext for buying them off? Could be.
Or, maybe treasonous Barry & Kerry worked it into the Iranian nuclear deal so the abba-dabbas could seal U.S. technology. We will never know. But nothing would surprise me regarding the globalist initiative in taking down the US at this point…