There is nothing as difficult as getting people to agree on the history of Palestine/Israel. Most histories you see are slanted dependent on whether they are written from the Jewish or Arab perspective. Following is a brief history, written largely by memory, that I believe hits the high points. Please do not get too hung up on the exact details, as it is not intended as a scholarly work.
The Jewish people go back around 4000 years or so. They inhabited Judea. They were an agrarian people, by and large, but certainly were also warlike at times. The first “diaspora” began around 586 BC, when Judea was conquered by the Babylonians. Very large numbers of Jews were forced to flee. Large numbers of Jews did remain in Judea, especially in the historic areas such as Jerusalem. The next major hit to the Jews came when Rome sacked Jerusalem in 61 BC, and in 135 AD Jews were driven from Jerusalem by the Romans. This further spread the Jews far and wide.
In approx.. 600 AD, the Muslims conquered the Middle East. They remained in control until around 1100 AD, when the Crusaders took Jerusalem and the surrounding environs, and the Crusades lasted around 200 years, when it all reverted back to Muslim control. This remained the same until Napoleon conquered the area, forcing both Jews and Arabs to flee.
An interesting phenomenon occurred roughly around 600 AD. The Jewish rabbis began to strongly encourage education. Prior to this point, the Jews were largely an agrarian people. By memory, there were approximately 5 million Jews world-wide at this time. Over the next centuries, that number dropped to approximately 1 million. One reason for the drop is of course famine, pestilence, etc. But another reason is that many of the 5 million simply left Judaism as they could not adapt to the new reality of needing to be educated, and the cost of educating themselves and their children. Eventually, the Jewish people transformed themselves into a people that are almost entirely educated, with a culture valuing education. They became very successful at business owing to their almost universal levels of education.
The Zionist movement commenced around 1900. This was a result of becoming emboldened by newly acquired freedoms and rights gained in Europe, amongst other reasons. They began to establish settlements in Palestine. Arabs began to flock to the areas around the settlements, perhaps in even larger numbers than the Jews that came, as the new settlements, run by the Jews, offered jobs and a higher standard of living and better conditions than they had elsewhere. Jews began to buy land – they did not “take it”, but bought it. By 1914, Palestine had around 700,000 inhabitants, of which approx.. 100,000 were Jews.
After WWI, the British and French carved up the Middle East primarily for their own purposes. They made conflicting promises to Jews and Arabs. The Arabs signed a deal granting the Jews a homeland (1919), which the Arabs reneged on, as Britain reneged on a land deal with the Arabs (Britain promised parts of Syria to the Arabs, but gave it instead to the French). Jews continued to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers, and Arabs followed them for the work on offer.
The League of Nations created Palestine about 1919. This is roughly the land currently known as Jordan and Israel. The French got Syria. In around 1920, the Arabs began to attack the Jews, as they 1) became fearful that the Jewish immigration would eventually see the Jews outnumber the Arabs, and 2) JERUSALEM. Always there is the issue of Jerusalem. Very serious attacks were made against the Jews in 1920, 1921, and especially in 1929. The Hebron massacre is especially gruesome and noteworthy. The Haganah became more and more active, and were not especially delicate in their activities toward the Arabs. Jewish migration exploded in the 1930s, owing to increased persecution of Jews in Europe. In 1936, the Arabs attacked the British, where thousands of Arabs and hundreds of Jews were killed.
In an effort to appease the Arabs, the British decided to limit the numbers of Jews allowed to immigrate to Palestine. This did not work, and it turned the Jews against the British. The Jews assassinated Lord Moyne who was tasked with limiting the Jewish immigration. That turned Churchill against the Jews.
WWII ends, and 6 million Jews have been killed. World opinion shifts, and a Jewish homeland is pressed for. Partition of Palestine occurs in 1947, where Jerusalem is to be under UN control, but it is surrounded by Trans-Jordan (Arab). The Jews accept the partition, but the Arabs do not. The Arabs begin making threats toward the Jews. At this point there are 600,000 Jews and 1.2 million Arabs in Palestine. On May 14, 1948, the Jews declare the Jewish state of Israel, and all surrounding Arab nations go to war against Israel, intending to drive the Jews out of Palestine.
And it is here that the Palestinian issue as it is known today really begins. Approximately 400,000 Arabs leave Israel, primarily at the urging of the Arab nations. Please read that statement again – the Arabs left at the urging of the Arab nations! This is so that they would be out of the way during the slaughter of the Jews, and they could return after the Jews were eliminated. The Arabs were unsuccessful in their war on Israel. The Arab nations, upon being unsuccessful, unanimously agreed that the 400,000 displaced Arabs would not be granted sanctuary in any of their nations – the displaced became homeless. This was despite being urged to leave by those same Arab nations. The UN compounded the problem by granting these Arabs “right of return”. A great many of these Arabs – the bulk in actuality – were not land owners, and were recent immigrants into the area, taking advantage of the economic situation the Jews were providing. It is especially interesting to note that those Arabs that did not flee by and large still live in and own their homes in Israel, and have largely not been persecuted by the Jews.
The next major incident was the 6 day war of 1967. There is much controversy over the exact events, but these are the basics: Arafat called for the elimination of Israel; PLO promises to expel all Jews from Israel; Jordan and Egypt sign pact and ready for war against Israel; Iraq joins the pact; Israel prepares for war and enters state of readiness; Israel determines ultimately that it cannot maintain its war-readiness indefinitely, and so ultimately makes a pre-emptive strike. It quickly wins the war, and seizes the Sinai, Golan Heights, Gaza. 1.2 million Palestinians fall under Israeli control.
Israel quickly offers to return most of the seized land, with a few exceptions they deem logistically important to protect against any further Arab aggression. The Arab nations refuse the offer. Israel falls under more hawkish leadership (Golda), and the offers are withdrawn. There have been ongoing wars/skirmishes ever since (Yom Kippur war, etc.).
So, that is the history in a nutshell. The Jews began migrating to what they see as their traditional homeland around 1900. It was but a desert wasteland, with few occupants. There is some indication that prior to their immigration, the wasteland had a majority of Jewish inhabitants. Arabs began to follow the Jewish immigrants in extremely large numbers owing to the economic benefits. The Arabs became concerned about the ever increasing Jewish numbers in land they believed to be theirs, and became aggressive. The Jews responded in kind. The British and French, but particularly the British, made a mess of things owing to their deceit and self-serving attitudes.
There are a few key turning points that have driven the entire issue: 1) Jerusalem, 2) the Arab refusal to accept the partition, 3) the failed attack made on the new state of Israel and the resultant displacement of 400,000 Arabs, 4) the refusal of any Arab nation to grant these 400,000 sanctuary, and the UN declaration granting these 400,000 right of return, 5) the ongoing aggression towards the state of Israel, 6) the refusal to accept the return of the Sinai, etc after the 6 Day War (that opportunity has now passed, and the lands are now integrated into Israel and I doubt they can ever be returned).
Prior to the Jewish wave of immigration into Palestine, it was a wasteland, and really had no formal borders nor was it a country or part thereof – it was Ottoman, but was of little consequence, save for the religious significance of Jerusalem. The Jews made it a desirable bit of property. There is ever possibility that the Jews were the largest proportion of inhabitants in the area prior to the immigration push, and thus have a pretty good claim on it with respect to it being a Jewish state. The Arab population only really blossomed as a result of the Jewish push.
Who should control the area? Who are the rightful owners? I do not know, nor really care. It is what it is. But in my opinion, it has almost never been the case that the Jews were the primary aggressors. At the moment, they are still capable of defending the land of Israel. And they are still not being granted right of existence by the Arabs, and are continually under threat.
It would behove all and sundry to avoid the entire area, and to let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately, the issue of oil will always play a part in the political posturing. Eventually, I am afraid something bad that way goes.
The sooner the West and East burns all the MENA oil the better , then we can all go back to killing each other locally and not be forced to absorb the cost travel long distances to commit murder.
Well said llpoh,
I wish I had your knowledge and skills.
By and large the arabs have made there own mess. History shows the arabs are fragmented into tribes that consistently war with each other until a common enemy temporarily unites them.
Just watch the movie Lawrence of Arabia starring Peter Otoole.
Under continual treat, I don’t think so. They are the ones threatening Iran with Nuclear Weapons right now.
Moses stands atop Mt. Sinai.
“Thank you oh Lord for the promised land. But does it have to be in the Middle East?”
The mistake everyone in West makes is trying to choose sides in this. The analogy I use is going to Zoo and watching two monkeys throwing shit at each other then trying to convince the guy standing next to you that one smells better than the other.
“Oh, :Lord. I know we are your Chosen People. But, did you have to choose us??”
——- Tevye, Fiddler On The Roof
llpoh
Israel is hardly ever an aggressor nation. Is that the main point you’re making?
Sounds like the Hatfields and McCoys…with nukes.
Thank, Llpoh. My own memory only takes me back to the Six Day War. You filled in a lot of gaps.
I think people who grow up in our Christian culture have a strange love/hate relationship with Judaism…one that defies any real logical understanding. There’s some kind of weird connection Christians feel with Israel because of the shared religious history.
I have heard it said that the orthodox zealots in the West bank settlements, with their expansionist politics and huge families, are Israel’s greatest threat to their own survival as a nation. Do you see Israel as a united people, or do you think they are splitting along secular and orthodox lines?
“The Jewish people go back around 4000 years or so.”
For purposes of discussion and illustration, let’s assume the Jewish people go back EXACTLY 4,000 years.
Where were Jews 4001 years ago? Did the “Jewish people” suddenly spring into existence //POOF!!\\ out of thin air? One day there are no Jews … the next day, there they are!
Probably not. Soooo, where did they come from, originally? More succinctly, who was the FIRST Jew? Most would say ‘Abraham’. But, was he really? First, Abraham was from what is now called Iraq. More importantly, Abraham was NEVER defined as a Jew. A Hebrew? Yes. An Israelite? Yes, after Jacob changed his name to Israel. In fact, the word “Jew” does not appear until about one thousand years after Abraham … when one of the twelve tribes, Judah, became the dominant tribe.
Anyway, Abraham from Iraq (Ur) travels to the land of milk and honey with his family and servants … a rather small group. How was the land usually acquired? By peace or force? What happened to the people already living there? How did the Hebrews increase from a small family to a nation? Simply from Abraham’s loins, or from conversions (forcibly, or otherwise) of the local population?
My sole point here is to show the fact that the Hebrews right from the very outset got started by going to OTHER people’s lands, taking it, settling there, and keeping it. That’s a fact.
Does what happened 4,000+ years ago justify political actions today? Of course not! But, sadly, when it comes to Jews and Moslems, it does. Leaving aside the religious stuff, the actions of one man, Abraham, still has blowback four thousand years later.
Stuck – this hits the highpoints of what is the mainstream history. Draw your own conclusions. But a lot of what people believe just is not so. The Jews bought the land they had prior to 1948, by amnd large. They did not evict Arabs by force in large numbers, but rather the Arabs left in large numbers at the urging of the attacking Arabs The area was very thinly populated until the Jews began immigrating, and the Arab population swelled in order to take advantage of the opportunities being offered by the Jews. The 400,000 Arabs that left were not long-term inhabitants of the area as is often claimed but were recent immigrants. The Jews accepted virtually every offer of partition, and the Arabs have rejected every one. There were no nation boundaries at the time, except for loose Ottoman control – there was nothing of value there until the Jews developed it. The arabs have time and again called for the elimination of Israel, and have attempted the same.
So, answer your own question – who is the aggressor? Israel offered peace on more than one occassion. The Arab nation have not. Hell, they have even refused the return of land gained in war as it was ” insufficient” and banned any nation from accepting in the Palestinian refugees that exist only because of the wars they have waged on Israel.
Israel will do whatever they decide. But the fact is it hasbeen undercontinued attack since 1920.
Eddie – I profess no insight re Israel internal issues. However my understanding is that mainstrean Israelis are becoming deeply resentful of the more Orthodox.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Palestinians believe their version of history. That part of the world is doomed, and I see no way forward in peace.
stucky is building the straw man argument. If we drew a time line back far enough we may as well say all the land belongs to the amoeba’s!
Heck I think stucky ought to give whatever he owns to the indians who were here before us.
These arguments are created just so people can puff up and beat there chests and feel like I sure showed them!
beam me up Scotty ….please beam me up!
I am not knowledgeable enough to have much of an opinion about the bulk of the overview but one point I would require further evidence on is the “wasteland” classification of what is called Palestine.
Irrigation techniques have been known for centuries so I find it difficult to believe that any decently arable land was left empty and uncultivated, which implies settlements and populations.
And I believe that thousands of olive trees – groves hundreds of years old – have been destroyed over the years. If this is true, and I believe that it is, then who planted them and who was maintaining them?
Also – the lifestyle of Bedouins by nature is one of roaming around with flocks so the flocks (and herders) must have been eating something – again – indications of food production and an unsettled population roaming within a geographic region.
The idea that the area was a mostly unihabited wasteland seems a stretch to me.
Intj – Mark Twain said this of Palestine in 1867: “Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Palestine is desolate and unlovely — Palestine is no more of this workday world”. The population of Palestine is disputed at 1900, but roughly was around 500,000. The Arabs made up most of those numbers, but Jews were largely the majority in the historic villages (maybe – much of this stuff is in dispute). Wasteland is the way most westerners seem to describe it pre-jJewish development. It was largely desert. The Jews made it green. There was of course tracts of good land, esp. Around Jaffa, Nablus, Jezreel, etc. However, there were great swaths of desert.
The muslim population grew from around 500,000 in 1920 to around 1.2 million by mid 1940s on the back of all the Jewish sponsored development.
Wasteland may have been a tad overstated but it was meant relative to what the Jews accomplished. They converted the landscape.
Stuck – seems things have escalated a bit. But Hamas always rattles sabres after the Israelis launch a strike, then crawl back into the schools to fire some more missiles. What a clusterfuck. There is no solution.
fine stucky…you told me off I just get a little sick and tired of people running down the jews and giving the palestinians a pass.
does anyone ever run around yelling how the Palestinians fired mortars and rockets for 5 days before israel defended itself? OR
do people now run around yelling how that aggressor Israel has attacked hamas?
I would of thought the Reuters opening line would have been more forthright if they had first stated that after 5 days of provacation Israel finally defended itself. The aggressors, Palestinian militants are mentioned last.
(Reuters) – Israel launched a major offensive against Palestinian militants in Gaza on Wednesday, killing the military commander of Hamas in an air strike and threatening an invasion of the enclave that the Islamist group vowed would “open the gates of hell”.
The onslaught shattered hopes that a truce mediated on Tuesday by Egypt could pull the two sides back from the brink of war after five days of escalating Palestinian rocket attacks and Israeli strikes at militant targets.
napari – I just made that point on another thread. Israel has been hit with dozens, perhaps hundreds, of rockets in the last few days by that murderous entity Hamas, and yet the world news was largely silent. They certainly did not refer to those attacks as a major Hamas offensive – but that was just what it was. Hamas lives and hides behind women and children, and then screams when the innocent bystanders are hit in the crossfire. Fuck Hamas.
But not our problem. But it certainly isn’t the way the MSM portays it, either.
napari
Many, if not most, Arab nations expressed sympathy and remorse towards the USA immediately after 9-11.
But, not the Palestinians. They danced in the streets. Sang songs. Celebrated through the night. Made sand-castles of the twin-towers and then knocked them down. Let me be clear … I LOATHE those fuckers.
As such, I don’t care that Israel is taking military action against them. What would we do if Canada started launching thousands of rockets into Buffalo? A sovereign nation has every right to secure its borders as it sees fit. For the last time, my problem with Israel is that they ALWAYS rely on us, or drag our sorry asses into THEIR problems. That just pisses me off.
“It would behove all and sundry to avoid the entire area, and to let the chips fall where they may”
This one sentence should form the backbone for our entire foreign policy.
Stuck – great comment. The fact is, for whatever reason, Israel is now a sovereign nation. Whether they should have been or not is a mute point. They have won land via war, and have held the land through their military strength. Such has always been the case. They will lose it when they can no longer defend it, given others want it. They are under continued rocket attack. I think they are close to having had enough of that. I am surprised at their restraint, to be honest. But not my fucking problem. And the other Arab nations, who are in a position to help resolve things, and should, given their long-term involvement, do nothing but foment continued violence and unrest.
Fuck the lot of them. Too bad about the innocents. That is a catastrophe. But there is little I think anyone can do, other than the Arab nations surrounding Israel sue for peace, and mean it. But that is never going to happen. It will end in fire and despair.
@llpoh “Too bad about the innocents.”
Agreed, but as the last 65 years of history have demonstrated, not even the vaunted US of A can stop all global injustices with a wave of the hand.
We have reeled from one disastrous foreign conflict to another like a drunken sailor, and the do-gooders would have you believe we are still in the right.
The United Empire of Amerika has failed.
Excuse me but, is not building 20 foot concrete walls around people and denying them food/medicine/building materials count as aggression? The pals then fire some bottle rockets,and the Israelis drop bombs and say “see they attacked us”.
And yes, the US government is funding Israel 3 billion + per year. Israel stole US uranium and has 200 + nuclear bombs.
And I am supposed to feel sorry for them? Give me a break.
What the Israelis are doing to the pals dwarfs what the US government has done to the american Indians for sure.
I say – stop stealing my money and giving it to evil countries. Just say NO to all foreign aid and intervention.
“Whether they should have been or not is a mute point.”
I believe the correct english word is “moot”. Unless you are saying the point was really really quiet.
For anyone interested, this is a pretty good summary timeline from 1900 to the present. One of the critical bits that I forgot to mention was that during the Yom Kippur war in 1973, when Egypt and Syria attacked Israel on Yom Kippur, they came very close to over-running Israel (Israel being quite small, even with the additonal land acquired in 1967). This had the affect of entrenching the mindset of Israel – they believe, rightfully in my opinion, that they would have been over-run if the extra buffer land was not there. They then decided to keep the land acquired in 1967, given they believe that without it they were at risk of being over-run without any hope of being able to mount a response. The Eqypt/Syrian push was stopped only 10 miles outside Tiberias in the Yom Kippur offensive.
http://www.icsresources.org/content/factsheets/ArabIsraeliTimeline.pdf
taxslave – the Israeilis can fence off their borders if they want. So can the US. You do know that Gaza has access to the fucking sea, don’t you? And you do know that it was Israel and Egypt that blockaded Gaza together in 2010 to keep Hamas from smuggling in arms? And you do know other goods were allowed in? The Israelis did build the wall, but your other comments are largely bullshit. How would you like it if you were under attack from “bottlerockets”? What bullshit. The US killed how many people in Iraq in retaliation for the attacks of 9/11, or to prevent the acquisition of “weapons of mass destruction”? It is what countries do – they defend theirs (justifiably or not), and do not tend to give a rat’s fuck as to how many of yours they kill in order to defend theirs. That is the way it is.
Palestinians did rely a lot on their ability to live and work in Israel. The wall largely prevented that from happening. Tough fucking shit as far as I am concerned. The Israelis got tired of the free run the suicide bombers etc. had crossing the lines. Imagine that. Any country can seal its borders at any time for any reason. It may, of course start a war. Lots of things can.
Taxslave – you need to do some proper research. You do not know what you are talking about.
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llpoh – The balance of arms and power is decidedly in the favor of Israel. My facts are straight.
Israel has killed american citizens over this conflict, and the US government does nothing.
how many jews have been killed by the pals?
How many pals by the jews?
Go fuck yourself.
From Wikipedia:
Civilian casualty figures for the Israeli–Palestinian conflict from B’tselem and Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs between 1987 and 2010[197][198][199][200]
(numbers in parentheses represent casualties under age 18)
Year Deaths
Palestinians Israelis
2011 118 (13) 11 (5)
2010 81 (9) 8 (0)
2009 1034 (314) 9 (1)
2008 887 (128) 35 (4)
2007 385 (52) 13 (0)
2006 665 (140) 23 (1)
2005 190 (49) 51 (6)
2004 832 (181) 108 (8)
2003 588 (119) 185 (21)
2002 1032 (160) 419 (47)
2001 469 (80) 192 (36)
2000 282 (86) 41 (0)
1999 9 (0) 4 (0)
1998 28 (3) 12 (0)
1997 21 (5) 29 (3)
1996 74 (11) 75 (8)
1995 45 (5) 46 (0)
1994 152 (24) 74 (2)
1993 180 (41) 61 (0)
1992 138 (23) 34 (1)
1991 104 (27) 19 (0)
1990 145 (25) 22 (0)
1989 305 (83) 31 (1)
1988 310 (50) 12 (3)
1987 22 (5) 0 (0)
Total 7978 (1620) 1503 (142)
Note: Figures includes 1,593 Palestinian fatalities attributed to intra-Palestinian violence. Figures do not include the 600 Palestinians killed by other Palestinians in the Gaza Strip since 2006.[122]
taxslave – you are a blithering idiot on this. You know nothing. You are an ignorant moron. How many were killed by which side has no fucking thing to do with anything. It has to do with who is strongest militarily – but the fact is it suits the Palestinians to keep provoking Israel despite the disparate loss of life. The US would not stand for Mexico firing rockets across the border – and if Mexico did, who do you think would lose the most people? Damn, there is stupid, and then there is taxslave.
And just what part to you think Iran/Syria/etc are playing in the continued aggression toward Israel? And why doesn’t any Arab nation offer to take in any of the Palestinians? Because it suits their purpose – they want an end to Israel, and they do not care how it happens or who suffers. The fucking Arabs caused the whole thing back in 1948, but have not done one thing to resolve the issue. They have rejected EVERY offer – every fucking offer. Why is that? Oh yeah – the want the state of Israel eliminated. And nothing else is acceptable. They cannot defeat Israel in a war, and can only accomplish the feat via a war of attrition. They will sacrifice the Palestinians in this war of attrition.
Who is being the aggressor? Should the US retaliate if Israel attacks US citizens? No argument from me there. The red herring generally thrown out is the Liberty incident – and facts are not certain there, despite the anti-Israel faction wanting to make it seem clear cut.
Damn, taxslave, just how do you manage to find your face with a fork? I am surprised you do not starve.
Eat shit.
Taxslave – as I said, who gives a shit re the figures. The Palestinians are the aggressors, continuously, and they are fucking losing. But that is their plan. They keep poking the bear, and the fucking bear bites their ass. Guess what – if they quit firing fucking rockets at Israel, their loss of life would be – get this – ZERO.
But I guess that is too difficult for a moron like you to understand. You would rather that Israel just bend over and let them keep jamming bottlerockets up their ass with no response, not even a fart. Seriously, how stupid and ignorant are you?
Violence begets violence.
Palestinians provoke, Israelis provoke.
The only innocent ones are the 162o palestinian children and 142 Israelis children dead.
I just want my government to stop supporting death and violence.
Oh, and eat shit .
Taxslave’s grasp of the English language is a wonder of the world. Too bad he has a brain the size of a pea.
llpoh – you are an asshole that wants to kill people. I do not.
This is what I believe: from Dr Paul:
“What a wonderful world it would be if everyone accepted the simple moral premise of rejecting all acts of aggression. The retort to such a suggestion is always: it’s too simplistic, too idealistic, impractical, naïve, utopian, dangerous, and unrealistic to strive for such an ideal.”
You think Israel is innocent and just defending her self.
You are wrong. They are just as guilty as the Palestinians, the US government, The Arabs, the Russians, the Chinese, etc etc etc.
Grow the fuck up and stop blindly defending the Jews.
They are just as bad as everyone else.
BTW – your English could improve too – “mute” instead of moot – BAWHAAHAAHAA
Oh, and your dick is the size of a cunt hair
Wow – I do apologize llpoh – previous comment was taxSlave – do not know how that happened.
I agree that any country can seal its borders at any time for any reason but the problem in regards Palestine is Isreal is not building their wall on the borders pre1967. It would be like Canada taking over Detroit to protect Windsor Ontario. I’m guessing alot of Americans would be pissed off if that was done. Some might say you can have it. I do like the picture showing the rocket ranges for Hamas. Five years from now when Iran was nukes on ICBM’s too we’ll be reminiscing about the good old days. Personally I hope they have a good go at each other. I’m tired of all the talk and no action. Let the shit throwing monkey show commence. I can’t wait.
Rob in Nova scotia says: “… It would be like Canada taking over Detroit to protect Windsor Ontario. I’m guessing alot of Americans would be pissed off if that was done…”
And not one of the “pissed off” would be a resident of Michigan outside the Detroit borders. Oh sure, some the homies in Benton Harbor, Flint, GR, or Saginaw would scream about it, but we could just offer to load their stuff up and move them into one of the hundreds of empty houses.
Most of us outside DeToilet would pitch in to pay to get Canada to take Detroit.
It would cost us so much less in the long run. So very much less.
Llpoh: I appreciate the brief history of the Yamikas and the Turbans in the Holy Sand.
Unfortunately, your reasoning, which is far from Zionist and certainly not, as Tax Slave said, “blindly defending the Jews” will offend the tingle in many a person’s astral mullet.
I don’t see any issue with the article or your comments. Armchair generals abound. Nothing is as simple as may seem, though I believe this conflict would be avoided if they all simply broke bread over a rasher of bacon.
This is a clusterfuck and will not end well.
taxslave – I knew it wasn’t me! Hey, I do not want to kill anyone. Peace is my middle name. There is no answer in the middle east – the Palestinians will not quit throwing rockets, and the Israelis will defend themselves as a result. I am not aware that the Palestinains have ever said what they will except in return for peace – they have rejected every offer. I expect they will not be happy unles the offer includes the disbandment of Israel. And/or control of Jerusalem. Neither of which Israel will listen to or agree with.
Rob – re the boundaries – Israel offered the return of almost all the land taken shortly after the 1967 war, save for a few small areas deemed too strategically important to return, in return for a promise of peace. The Arabs refused. I believe that offer stood unti the Yom Kippur offensive by Egypt and Syria. Egypt and Syria came close to overrunning Israel then, and Israel changed its stance and said fuck you, we are keeping the land.
There is no doubt that Egypt, Syria, etc intended to attack, or were visibly threatening to attack, Israel in 1967. They massed their armies on the Israeli border, and said they would attack. Whether they would have gone through with it or not is open to speculation. Israel decided it could not live with the threat, and attacked pre-emptively, and seized the border. To me, they – the Israelis – have a good case for keeping that land gien they were under threat, and the threat has never been fully rescinded, and their offer of return of the land for peace has been rejected. So there are new borders. Such is life – the opportunity for peace has existed since 1917, and the Arabs have rejected it each and every time.
The opportunity for peace still exists, but I doubt that Israel will now offer the return of the Sinai, etc., again. That time has passed I am afraid. It is now probably just peace, maybe pull down the wall, maybe unfetteerd access but not rule over Jerusalm, but that would be about it. I very much doubt that Israel will evr again offer to shring back to 1967 borders – which were not acceptable, either.
So I expect war it will be, either low-level war, such as now, or an all out offensive by Israel. It sucks, but the sides simply will never find an agreement.
Colma – you are right on every count. I doubt anyone will be swayed by anything. This is my attempt to address the common historical fallacies, namely that Israel ran the Palestinians out, that they grabbed the and and did not pay for it, that the Palestinians were ancient residents of the area, etc. etc.
I truly believe the Israelis would have peace if they are able. But the Arab nations do not want it, have never wanted it, and will settle for the elimination of Israel and nothing less. The Paestinians believe their own version of history, and as a result they will fight on indefinitely. If the middle east people are capable of any two things, it is that they have long memories, and can REALLY hold a grudge. And they are extremely patient (so I guess that makes 3 things).
Teresa – wonder what the US would have to do to piss Canada off enough for them to attack Detroit. Man, that would be great.
There is no opportunity for peace as long as the Israelis get to pick and choose what land they give back. That said I don’t think they can give any of it back. Even if they did they would have to control the airspace over whole of Palestine. The West Bank and Gaza if Independent would just be a large festering boil needing a lance every once in a while. Which is pretty much how things are right now. Demographics will soon overtake the Jewish Majority. Once that happens the two state solution will cease being an option and Israel will have to choose between being a democracy or becoming an aparthied state. Add Iran with Nuclear weapons and it’s going to be hard to recruit jewish citizens to offset the arab tide about to wash over this shithole.
that’s weird I posted that not lloph
1905, Ottoman Resignation data showed the following about the population of Palestine: Muslims, 93.1% were born in their current locality of residence, 5.2% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 1.6% were born outside Palestine. Of Christians, 93.4% were born in their current locality, 3.0% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 3.6% were born outside Palestine. Of Jews, 59.0% were born in their current locality, 1.9% were born elsewhere in Palestine, and 39.0% were born outside Palestine.
1922, First British census of Palestine shows population of 757,182, with 78% Muslim, 11% Jewish and 9.6% Christian. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 1,454 Hindus, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans
1931, Second and final British Census of Palestine shows total population of 1,035,82– The population was divided by religion as follows: 759,717 Muslims, 174,610 Jews, 91,398 Christians, 9,148 Druzes, 350 Bahais, 182 Samaritans, and 421 “no religion”. The Jewish population increased by 108.4% over those 9 years. It also gave the fraction of persons living in Palestine in 1931 who were born outside Palestine: Muslims, 2%; Christians, 20%; Jews, 58%
JEWISH IMMIGRANTS TO ISRAEL
1948-1995
U.S.S.R. and.C.I.S. 813,708
Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia 345,753
Romania 273,957
Poland 171,753
Iraq 130,302
Iran 76,000
United States 71,480
Turkey 61,374
Yemen 51,158
Ethiopia 48,624
Argentina. 43,990
Bulgaria 42,703
Egypt and Sudan 37,548
Libya 35,865
France 31,172
Hungary 30,316
India 26,759
United Kingdom 26,236
Czechoslovakia 23,984
Germany 17,912
South Africa 16,277
Yugoslavia 10,141
Syria 10,078
(Jerusalem Report Chart)
Your characterizations don’t fit the data at all, Llpoh, but they do fit Zionist propogand.
Once Mexicans make up the majority of the US population and declare it Mexico Norte, I nominate Llpoh to write a brief history of Los Estados Unidos, explaining how the Mexicans didn’t migrate here because they were always here, how this is their ancestral home of Aztlan, and that there weren’t any Caucasian people here at all until they followed the Mexicans here because the Mexicans landscaped the wasteland sometime in the 2000s and attracted some Caucasians to come in from Canada.
SAH – a lot of different opinion re population of Palestine – overall a big place. Most of the population was centered in not what we now consider Palestine – Palestine generally is Israel plus Jordan. The Jews were much more heavily represented in their historic areas. The numbers youa re quoting are probably about as accurate as any other. However, the numbers in what we now know as Israel would be of a much higher Jewish ratio than the overall number, which included Jordan.
The Pre-1900 number is generally considered in the 1/2 million area. The number at 1948 is around 1.2 Arab, and about half that in Jews. Around 400k “fled” during the war the Arabs waged starting in 1948 – not because they were forced out, but because they were told to/urged to by the Arabs intent on eliminating Israel. . There was a hufge increasein Muslims, and Jews, between 1900 and 1948 – largely owing to the immigration of both – the Jews to populate the area known as Israel, and the Arabs to make a living off the opportunity the Jews provided.
If you look up to my comment at 4:20 you will seeI said “The muslim population grew from around 500,000 in 1920 to around 1.2 million by mid 1940s on the back of all the Jewish sponsored development.” So what is your point? I already said this.
If you are suggesting the Arab population grew from 500k approx. in 1920 to 1.2 million in 1947 without heavy immigration, I call total bullshit. In the thousands of years previous, the areasustained on a few hundred thousand at best, but suddenly it went up 2.5 times? It was because of immigration. Even Muslims do not breed that fast.
The original “Palestine” is different than Israel – the Jew immigrated and populated a sparsely populated area withing Palestine, and the Palestinians followed to reap the associated benefits.
However, the fact is, that no one knows. The 1922 census is highly discreditied. The 1931 count is much better. Prior to that it is anyone’s guess. This is about the most that can be said, and it is not a lot:
“Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.”
Most comments on population of Palestine before 1931/1948 is very speculative. I tried to convey that.
Plus what is your point re Jewish immigration after 1948? I mentioned nothing whatsoever about that. I think all Jews have a right to immigrate to Israel. And many do and have done so.
But what is clear, the Jews did not displace Arabs until the 1967 war. Which they did not start. The Arabs left of their own accord, at the urging of Arabs, in 1948. There is no evidence – none whatsoever – that there was a concerted effort by Israel to force them out. The Haganah dod some terrible things, but over 70% of the Arabs that had left had apparently NEVER even seen a Jewish soldier – they were acting on instruction from Arabs to clear the battlefields so that the attack on Israel would be easier. The ones that did not leave are still there – there are still a couple of hundred thousand Arabs in East Jerusalem alone.
Actually, if anything the Pre-1948 population counts undercounted existing Muslims in the area, because the Bedouins wouldn’t cooperate. There were hundreds of thousands of Bedouins living in the area Pre-1948, and a large part of the ‘increase’ in Muslim counts after was the greater success in counting those who already were there. Reputable historians have essentially disproved the ‘Arab Immigration’ theory. In addition to better counting the Bedouins, death rates dropped dramatically for the indigenous people. The Jewish invasion from Europe, North America etc brought with it modern hospitals and medical treatment to the region for the first time. The increase in Muslim population can be essentially completely accounted for by more accurate counts of the existing Muslim population, and natural population increase from modern medical care and births. There is really no evidence for any sort of mass Arab migration into the area. There is extremely reliable data for mass Jewish migration into the area.
If you want to continue to argue that more Arabs immigrated into the area than Jews, and that the millions of foreign Jews didnt displace anyone, feel free to.
The dumb camel shit eating Palestinians chose to be on the wrong side of three (count them t-h-r-e) wars.
They offered Israeli citizenship, a return of land and turned them all down.
To what purpose?
The loser of three wars does not get to set the terms of how the outcome lies. They do no specify that, “Well, gee, sure you won the war, but we want all our land back!”. “Yes, well, we did fight on the side of the stupid thumb sucking camel fucking Arab neighbors we had and we did lose all three of the wars, but gee whiz, you shouldn’t hold that against us!”
Horse pucky. To the winner goes the spoils. Israel requires defensible borders, The West Bank and the Golan provides them with that. They keep both of them and populate them. End of story. Until a nuke drops at the narrowest point in the country and cuts it in two.. Start of story..
MA
I think SAH has a point to make ………. I wish I knew what the fuck what it is.
I’ll support the idea of Israel returning land to the Palestinians ……….. when the USA returns Manhattan back to the Lenape Indians.
Makes about as much sense.