Submitted by Tyler Durden on 05/27/2015 13:45 -0400
As regular readers are no doubt aware, the US and China are racing towards a maritime conflict stemming from Beijing’s construction of what Washington has condescendingly called “sand castles” in the Spratly archipelago.
Atop these man-made islands are cement plants, air strips, and soon-to-be lighthouses, as China boldly asserts its territorial claims on what are heavily-contested waters though which trillions in seaborne freight pass each year.
Now, with Beijing set to enforce what is effectively a no-fly zone over its new sovereign ‘territory’ we bring you the following graphic from WSJ which shows that when it comes to sheer size, China’s air force and Navy are beyond compare.
China’s promise to beef up its naval capabilities to prevent further “meddling” and “provocative actions” by rivals in the South China Sea is a daunting prospect for most of its neighbors, which already view Beijing’s fast-improving armed forces with trepidation…As a recent Pentagon review of China’s military modernization drive noted, “China is investing in capabilities designed to defeat adversary power projection and counter third-party—including U.S.—intervention during a crisis or conflict.” In practice, that means hundreds of ballistic and cruise missiles positioned near the coast to deter Japanese or American warships from coming anywhere near Chinese territory. China has a substantial submarine fleet as well, piling on more risk for enemy ships.
China isn’t doing anything the U.S. hasn’t already done. Diego Garcia, anyone?
Cold War 2.0: Clouds of war above the Asia-Pacific
http://bit.ly/1LJIDKr
This is a comparison of everything China has against a single US carrier strike group. We have nine such groups, or more, and hundreds of other naval ships not part of strike groups. The comparison is meaningless.
You can also bet on Australia, and possibly the UK and New Zealand, getting involved in any big naval war over this area.
I have zero desire for a war between the US and China, but in this one instance China is the aggressor, not the USA.
@Westie: Diego Garcia is a naturally existing island, above sea level and outside of anyone else’s territorial waters, owned by the UK. The US leases a base there. It is valuable indeed. But not an apt comparison.
A better comparison would be if the US were building an artificial island 25 miles off the coast of China, just to piss on them, and declaring a 24nm limit around that artificial island.
Yo Persnickety,
35nm off the U.S.??
what kind of comparison is that ?? Is this island in our hemisphere for cryin out load? It’s in CHINA’S backyard NOT ours!!
Let ’em build. If the Japanese don’t like it let THEM make a stand. Not our pond!
I agree with you Persnickety. Obviously the U.S. Navy is clearly superior to China’s. ZeroHedge does not always paint a true picture. This is one of those times.
The graphic is not from Zero Hedge. It’s from the Wall Street Journal.
Do you bozos actually think we have any right to dictate what the fucking Chinese do in the South China Sea?
How does this site attract a bunch of neo-con war mongers?
The U.S. military probably has weapons we can’t fathom, such as scalar devices. Just because they haven’t used them yet doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
That’s easy to answer. No one, expect the weapons manufacturers.
@Jim, do you know where these islands are? They aren’t off the coast of China in any meaningful sense. Much closer to our ally and one-time possession the Philippines, then our ally Malaysia, and next our strange enemy-of-my-enemy “friend” Vietnam. Take a look.
[img
[/img]
“The graphic is not from Zero Hedge. It’s from the Wall Street Journal.” – Admin
No kidding. But the article is from ZeroHedge.
The graphic references the one task force that Persnickety was talking about. No kidding.
Persnickety
Who the fuck cares?
Are these islands creating an imminent risk to the US?
It’s no different than Yemen. WTF do I car about ragheads killing each other or a bunch of slanty eyed chinks building islands?
Our military’s job is to defend our country from invasion. That’s it.
When did you become an imperialist war monger?
“Are these islands creating an imminent risk to the US?”
Yes, actually. These sand castles are being used in a Chinese attempt to seize a huge amount of international ocean (nominally but half-heartedly claimed by some other nations) and turn it into Chinese domestic waters and airspace requiring Chinese permission to enter. It’s total bullshit, and it goes against the international law concept “freedom of the seas” and literally centuries of legal and political precedent. If this is allowed to proceed then this important waterway will go from international to Chinese, and it’s likely that further areas will later be brought under Chinese control as well – and maybe also by various other countries following the precedent to seize international seas as their own private territory.
As you’ve seen from my comments over the years I am hardly a Neocon and am disgusted at most of the military actions the US has taken in the last several years, as well as many of our military actions taken in the last 20-30 years. But this is a whole different type of issue because it represents an attempt to seize territory that never has belonged to China, ever, much of which has been non-owned international ocean for all practical purposes.
Are they seizing US territory?
If not, it’s none of our business.
It is not our job to police the world and solve all territorial disputes at the point of a gun.
Let the countries affected by this affront deal with it themselves. Who made us protector and enforcer for the world?
You are correct Persnickety unfortunately this site is full af immature unintelligent people. The Admin should set an example instead he resorts to name-calling.
You are correct Persnickety unfortunately this site is full af immature unintelligent people. The Admin should set an example instead he resorts to name-calling.
His site his rules…. Don’t like it GTFO… Just sayin…
” But this is a whole different type of issue because it represents an attempt to seize territory that never has belonged to China, ever, much of which has been non-owned international ocean for all practical purposes.”
Oh, you mean just like the U.S. is trying to do with Ukraine? Go blow it out your stinking asshole and die, MF.
Not sure if it’s any of our business but we do have defensive agreements with Taiwan who China has repeatedly threatened to take back.The issues dealing with Taiwan could easily start a war.That’s probability what China is really doing.
JC,
You are correct to say that it is his site so he can say anything he wants but in all the forums and blogs I visit I never had an Admin treat others that way. I only came here because several of them had a link to some of the articles on this site. The Admins there do not act like that nor do most of the people who post.
Jerry
Go fuck yourself. I’m treating you with kid gloves compared to how assholes usually get treated around here. If your panties are in a bunch over those comments, you better go back to the tranquil sites you frequent like Neocons.com
Jerky – I will not quibble re you saying the site is full of “immature” folks. I love immature stuff.
But you are a dolt and know nothing if you think folks are unintelligent. You result to the standard line when folks disagree with you – they must be stupid.
Fine as an attack on an individual, I suppose. But to use that as an assault on the entire TBP site? You do not know what the fuck you are talking about.
There are folks around here that would have you out IQed by forty or more points.
So to sum up, blow me, asshole.
Jerry just entered a house of pain. He now has Admin and Llpoh as adversaries. As soon as Stuck, IS, SSS, and the other shit throwing monkeys arrive, he’ll wish he never ventured onto this site. He is looking for calm discourse where we all get treated civilly. Good luck with that. I expect he’ll scamper off the site with his tail between his legs like many mangy curs before him.
Well you sure are not one of the Llpoh. Now may be Persnickety’s is.
Jerry’s entrance onto TBP
When I leave here Admin it wil be because I choose not to waste my time any more.
You will leave here at my discretion asshole. I can make you disappear in an instant. Got it tough guy?
Let’s see if you have the balls to stick around.
I highly doubt it.
Jerry,
You might enjoy being the latest TBP chew toy.
To paraphrase the immortal Smokey:
“You’d rather jack off a mountain lion in a phone booth with barbed wire than fuck with Llpoh.”
Anyway, back to the original topic. I don’t think the Chinese are being aggressive. I think they are building a defensive perimeter of islands to prevent hostile foreign navies (The USN) from being able to attack their mainland. It’s the same tactic the Japanese employed during WW2.
Sorry Admin, I do have what it takes but I see no point in sticking around. Other sites require my attention. Have a good night and may be we will chat again sometime.
Don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
Well, that did not take too long.
It always goes: “Oh, yeah? I am tougher and smarter than youse guys!” Followed immediately by the sound of running feet and he sound of the screen door smacking them on the ass, as they are too stupid to avoid it.
Damn it, you guys ran him off before I even got a chance to scalp him.
I remember what fun Smokey, Admin, and I had with newbies. You relatively new folks missed some stuff you simply would not believe. One time a college professor wandered in, and by the time he fled I think he felt he had found Dante’s Inferno.
I even remember kicking crap out of AWD, for MONTHS, who hung in there and became a legend. Trial by fire was truly the way of it.
Billy was kicked and beaten by all the Big Dogs, but he took it and dished it out in equal amounts. If you survive the first week, you are usually here forever.
http://www.news.com.au/world/the-war-word-is-being-increasingly-heard-as-europe-russia-china-and-the-united-states-adopt-provocative-postures/story-fndir2ev-1227371823129
IS the world going mad? Military posturing is quietly reaching new extremes in Europe, the Mediterranean and the South China Sea. And the provocative bluster has just reached new heights.
The source was anonymous. But the mouthpiece has a measure of credibility. High profile military analyst and former US Naval War College lecturer John Schindler tweeted last week: “Said a senior NATO (non-US) GOFO to me today: ‘We’ll probably be at war this summer. If we’re lucky it won’t be nuclear.’ Let that sink in.”
The warning comes as Europe engages in some of its biggest ever war games — right on Russia’s front door. It’s a deliberate ploy, intended to remind Moscow of the consequences of its duplicitous invasion of Ukraine.
Half a world away, the “w” word was mentioned again yesterday. This time in an editorial by a Chinese state controlled paper. Said the Global Times: “If the United States’ bottom line is that China has to halt its activities, then a US-China war is inevitable in the South China Sea.”
…the increasingly threatening talk is causing many to take notice: High-profile US Billionaire investor George Soros told the World Bank last week: “If there is conflict between China and a military ally of the United States, like Japan, then it is not an exaggeration to say that we are on the threshold of a third world war.”
If China’s economy continues to falter, he said last week, “there is a real danger that China will align itself with Russia politically and militarily, and then the threat of third world war becomes real.”
He was arguing for China to be allowed to join the IMF’s international currency market to allow the Yuan to compete with the US dollar.
Shit poo pah fuckity fuck fuckmedead. I missed out on all the fun??? (Damn 1812 article involves a shitload of research.)
Jerry. Jeeerrrry. JERRY!! —— COME BACK!!
too funny..
Admin – That was somewhat …. disappointing.
To paraphrase The Joker, what TBP needs is a better class of idiot. We need more folks that hang around long enough to learn something, and put up a better fight than Jerky did until they manage to learn something – folks that start out dumb but evolve and awaken.
I mean, take you for example. You once believed OWS was a defining moment. After I kicked your ass about that for months on end, you finally came to your senses.
And you beat sense into me re bankers. The good old days!
OWS and the Tea Party both started out as legitimate protest movements that were both hijacked by special interests and marginalized almost immediately. Too bad. There hasn’t been any anti-government efforts since.
I had to battle you and Smokey for days on end during the OWS days. Nothing like a thumb ring to set you off.
How big a mistake was it that the US, after WW2, effectively took over Japan’s defence for decades thereafter?
It was an enormous political and economic error.
Jim said: “Are they seizing US territory?
If not, it’s none of our business.
It is not our job to police the world and solve all territorial disputes at the point of a gun.
Let the countries affected by this affront deal with it themselves. Who made us protector and enforcer for the world?”
No, they aren’t seizing US territory. But they are attempting to deprive the US and other nations of free navigation over ocean territory. Ocean territory that we use, and need, to engage in voluntary free trade with other nations that wish to trade with us. This is not imperialism, it’s a matter of preventing another nation’s attempt at imperialism.
I’m well aware that the US doesn’t have the best moral standing right now for countering imperialism – which is an obvious and stupid outgrowth of our policy since 2001, and to a lesser extent decades prior. But that doesn’t change the fact that Chinese actions here are attempting to enclose and seize a large area that is not theirs, does not belong to them, and by doing so interferes with the rights, under longstanding international law, of all other nations on earth.
All countries that use ocean commerce are potentially affected by this action, and that means virtually countries on earth. The US does not have a special crown to be world cop, but we do have a right, as do other nations, to defend our national interests, within the recognition under international law, and defending our freedom to navigate oceans is inherently a major part of that.
@Russia is fascist, I was beginning to like you, but you apparently ASSume what my views are. I don’t support US meddling in Ukraine, which is not something we are doing for any good and legally defensible reasons. You seem to make the mistake of taking sides without looking at fundamentals, and by doing so you are endorsing anything anti-US without regard to its morality or legality. Basically you’re just a mirror image of the buffoons on Fox News. Good for you.
You actually expect me to believe some sandcastles in the middle of a vast ocean will actually deter navigation of the seas? I’m not a ship captain, but couldn’t they steer the boat around the sandcastles? The diagram you posted was from a report by someone who believes China has this plan. China has announced nothing.
I thought there were international organizations that are supposed to settle these disputes. So you think we should go to war to stop these sandcastles from being built?
China is our biggest supplier of shit. How exactly will these sandcastles change that fact? None of what you have stated makes sense to me.
It is none of our business.
llpoh says:
How big a mistake was it that the US, after WW2, effectively took over Japan’s defence for decades thereafter?
It was an enormous political and economic error.
______________________________
The Pacific War itself was a big fucking mistake. Thanks to Roosevelt fucking with the Japs, almost all of East Asia went full commie.
“The graphic is not from Zero Hedge. It’s from the Wall Street Journal. Do you bozos actually think we have any right to dictate what the fucking Chinese do in the South China Sea?”
—-Admin
First of all, the graphic mentions one US carrier fleet as opposed to one for the Chinese. The Chinese don’t have an operational carrier. We have 11. So Snick is correct, as are his other comments.
Secondly, we DO have the right to challenge the Chinese in the South China Sea. Those are international waters the Chinese are violating around the disputed Spratley Islands. China signed the same international treaty that we did. China is violating that treaty. We are the only country that can challenge that violation.
Thirdly, Jerry was driven off the site way too early. He made a HUGE error in personally criticizing Admin early on how he ran the website. Dumb. But we might want to think about using honey instead of vinegar to attract the bees.
Stucky asked Jerry to come back. I agree.
SSS with more bullshit. What international treaty? Name it.
Were we the only two countries to sign this treaty?
Why are we the ONLY country that can challenge the “violation”?
Aren’t our vast fleets busy intimidating Iran, Syria and Russia?
Do you actually think it is worth going to war over some sandcastles in a vast sea?
Jesus, the true nature of the neo-con warmongers comes out.
Jerry is an asshole and is too much of a pussy to survive one week on this site.
His previous comment was to support the border cops who tasered the lady who refused their dumbass orders.
SSS – for fuck sake, do not be ridiculous.
SSS wants this:
[img]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRK_RKSU0g0QIO3euQZ_EH162-sc2d4_akJFG-gu95_9bmXaVj[/img]
I want this:
[img]https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR-SrHspaiNmHqd3Oaho1qEGVA4gHvjQV1k_oIuZgXoNEfzFas-bw[/img]
And Jerry was this:
[img]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcThrJ2N5YNXx5w9ghhK7jzLQ0J0FYxDirqZGLyalRq8HXY-OEHt[/img]
Where the fuck is my eagle?????
Fucking WPES. One of these better work:
[img
[/img]
[/img]
[/img]
[/img]
[img
[img
[img
SSS – what does “disputed” mean?
Well, generally it means someone is going to settle the dispute. Often by force. Land is, was, always will be acquired by force.
It is the nature of things.
SSS, The US doesn’t need to do anything to remove those sand islands. One typhoon ought to do the trick.
Z is quite possibly right. Plus, you know, there is global warming. They better build those islands a lot higher!
And don’t forget Godzilla. He lives around there somewhere. He would use those islands to wipe his ass!
[img
[/img]
llpoh says:
Z is quite possibly right. Plus, you know, there is global warming. They better build those islands a lot higher!
____________________________________
The bright side is we get to either find out that RE was right and HAARP is badass, or he is simply full of shit as usual (my opinion).
@Admin & Llpoh – Never would have thought that a post about China and their claims to islands would have turned into a classic TBP beat down. Keep up the good work!
Threads like this with lively discussion are what keeps me lurking constantly and posting rarely.
Folly – we need more posts from you.
More perspectives = better site.
Llpoh – you have told me that before, and I will attempt to do better. Often I am late to the party reviewing articles due to other time constraints with work and family. I am not a fan of posting simply for the sake of posting. This site and the discussions it generates are truly special and I for one do not want to degrade it with low quality me too type comments.
folly – you will improve it. We will get to know you better.
As a suggestion, humor can fill in for those times when you cannot be bothered/do not have time for a good post. For instance:
[img
[/img]
[/img]
[/img]
[img
[img
That way we know you are still around! Thanks, folly.
“An exclusive economic zone (EEZ) is a sea zone prescribed by the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea over which a state has special rights regarding the exploration and use of marine resources, including energy production from water and wind.[1] It stretches from the baseline out to 200 nautical miles”
What is the dispute?
Let’s take one of the “Islands” that the Chinese are building on, well it’s more a reef than an Island. It’s called ‘Mischief Reef’ (what a name). Anyway it’s located 145 miles from the Philippine Island of Palawan, Well within the 200mile EEZ of the Philippine Islands. What is the distance of that Island/reef, to China, 800 miles. That’s right nowhere near China.
What does china use as an argument to try to justify their claim to those Islands? Well the best I can tell is that they claim artifacts have been found on some of those islands that show that Chinese Sailors landed there some thousand or so years ago. That of course is just a Bull Shit answer the real answer is they have the largest military in the area and they’ll take whatever the fuck they want.
The Philippines is of course in no position to drive them out and has appealed to the UN or International Court but China refuses to allow the case to be tried in the world court. Instead they claim that move by the Philippines (appealing to the world Court) is blatant aggression towards China.
Above Anon was me
“Chinese actions here are attempting to enclose and seize a large area that is not theirs, does not belong to them, and by doing so interferes with the rights, under longstanding international law, of all other nations on earth.”
—-Snick
Exactly. Persnickety is 100% correct.
Admin, Llpoh and the rest of you jibber-jabberers* don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Look at a freaking map. China is attempting to turn the entire South China Sea into a Chinese lake. It’s NOT about some fucking sandbars on the Spratley Islands, it’s about illegal Chinese control of sea and air navigation routes through the entire area. China is violating international laws and treaties to which it is signatory.
*A jibber-jabberer is defined as a person who flaps his jaw about an issue with which he is totally unfamiliar and incompetent to discuss. Commonly seen in Irish-American Roman Catholics in the North Philly suburbs and Choctaw Indians who have relocated to Australia.
“it’s about illegal Chinese control of sea and air navigation routes through the entire area. China is violating international laws and treaties to which it is signatory.”
That resent incident absolutely proves the above statement. Think about that, an American plane is flying above Philippine waters, 800 miles away from China and the Chinese squatters are threatening the American plane and demanding they leave the area.